Shutting Down

Not a bad idea to take some time away...everyone needs to recharge the batteries, and you don't want your kid getting sick of the game (I've seen it happen a lot at all levels).
However, if you are attending some important camps he'll have to keep working some to make sure that he doesn't hurt himself when he tries to "hump it up" for the college recruiters.

Can't do both....Talk to coach and see what he suggest.
Fungo

My son attended the WWBA championship 2 weeks ago. I told him that when we get home I didn't want him picking a bat or ball up for a month. He is, however, starting his winter conditioning program (weights and Plyos)

He is playing over Christmas but I figure that if he starts working out again in early December that he will be in pretty good shape by Christmas.

The body and the mind both need the rest.

My son was shut down this fall. He still participated in pitching drills, long toss, weights, swimming, and running. He did not throw off the mound where most of the arm stress originates. If you use your head, I think you can back off high stress work yet stay sharp. The people that run the winter camps understand what season it is. However, make sure you relay to them where you stand as far as conditioning goes.

Several sources I have read say that shutting down is very beneficial. However, I really can't think of anyone article that I've read that suggest anything more than planned 2 week breaks. We take two breaks during our off season lifting and plyo program. Neither one is more than 7 days. We have a throwing program on the same time frame. However, we do shut down for 2 weeks in that program. We do so using the Christmas break as a part of it.

Ditto rz1 and CoachB25. Fall scout team will finish this weekend. Will take 1 week off everything, then resume running, weights, long toss etc thru Thanksgiving, take a week off and repeat in Dec thru Xmas break. All flat ground work...will see the mound again once a week in Jan '05.

The arm will get plenty of rest during the long toss sessions and keep it conditioned. As rz1 said, no stress work from the mound.

Good luck to all!

hsfan,

My younger guy got a 2 1/2 week break from from 2nd week of Aug to end of Aug.

He was still expected to run and stretch during those 3 weeks.

Some of you guys must have missed the article from 'Collegiate Baseball' a couple months ago that was discussed on these boards. The article indicated that medical doctors, specifically those who perform Tommy John surgeries, recommend that teenagers, especially pitchers, take 2-3 months off of throwing during the off-season. I seem to recall most of the members who post on here ignoring that recommendation while writing their posts. I think that in general, even when we solicit opinions, we are looking for opinions that support our own ways of thinking......I have been guilty of that myself.

Grateful, I read that article but I didn't remember that as a part of it. I have it and so, I'll review it. We only throw a couple of days a week. We do a lot of band work and I have posted before about our workouts. We do a mixture of several programs based upon facilities, school guidelines etc. We get the breaks in and we work with a trainer year round. To this point, we have never had an arm injury. I've always felt it is because of this program that we use. Again, I'll re read that edition.

Grateful-
We have fall ball in our program, but they stop throwing in mid-October and don't throw again until the 1st of December, and then only twice a week with limited pitch counts until tryouts in March.
I think there is definitely something to be said for taking some time away.

From "Collegiate Baseball":

July 2004, article entitled "Young pitchers at risk for serious injuries"

Recommendation #6:
"Pitchers should compete in baseball no more than nine months in any given year as periodation is needed to give the body time to rest and recover. For at least three months a year a pitcher should not play any baseball or softball, participate in throwing drills or participate in other stressful overhead activities (javelin throwing, football quarterback, softball, competitive swimming, etc.)."

Another interesting recommendation, # 8:
"Pitchers should be discouraged from participating in "Showcases" due to the risk of injury. The importance of "Showcases" should be de-emphasized, and at the least, pitchers should be permitted appropriate time to prepare for the display of their skills."

CoachB25 and Coach Knight.....

My opinion is that in general, most high school coaches are not going to 'abuse' their pitchers' arms during the off-season.

It is more likely that over-zealous parents, private instructors, and showcase organizers are going to ignore the recommendations of the medical professionals who specialize in baseball injuries.

Most of that is under the guise of putting the pitcher in a position to be the 'star' or earning a college scholarship.

quote:

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Originally posted by Coach Knight:
Grateful-
We have fall ball in our program, but they stop throwing in mid-October and don't throw again until the 1st of December, and then only twice a week with limited pitch counts until tryouts in March.
I think there is definitely something to be said for taking some time away.

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What I do with my sons, is they take the month of November off. In December (Usually) nothing but DRY drills working on Mechanics no throwing at all.

In January they throw 3 sessions per week, all fastballs, 3 sets of 8 pitches each session.

February, 3x a week, 4 sets of 8, all fast balls

March 3x a week 5 sets of 8, 4 fastballs, 2 curves, 2 change-ups.

Pre Season Spring league starts at the end of March and they are in pretty good pitching shape. (Can only pitch 3 innings in Preseason)

HS season starts May 15th and they are in mid-season form by then.

I think the slow progression helps alot.

I said usually above, because this Christmas my son is traveling to Australia with RCW & the Goodwill Games Organization so we have to modify the routine a little.

The season doesn't start until middle of May?


I guess the snow is finally melted by then, huh?

While the Collegiate Baseball article is sound advice in a perfect world, it is a bit impractical for the high school senior looking to show a distant coach what he can do. The holiday season could be the last chance to get on the radar before the college and HS seasons start. If you shut down now for a month, take 3 weeks to get it back for a short workout at the end of December, and then shut down for another month have you come up with a decent compromise?

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Originally posted by KellerDad:
The season doesn't start until middle of May?


I guess the snow is finally melted by then, huh?

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Almost

HSFAN, that sound like a reasonable plan. That's what my son is going to do.

I suppose a compromise could work.

If you go to the doctor and are diagnosed with something common like High Blood Pressure, and he recommends that you abstain from caffeine, alcohol, and potato chips or you are a heart attack in the making, are you going to compromise and just give up two of them?

Or is it different because it is your body and not your son's arm?

grateful-

That is not a very good analogy. I won't even argue the point.

You are way off base suggesting that I don't care about my son's arm. The fact is that he wants to play college ball. There is one particular school that he is interested in that has not seen him yet. At this point the only way it will happen is to go to their holiday camp. In order to shut down we need a compromise, plain and simple. Shutting down now for three months may be an option for a pitcher who is already recognized as one of the best in the country. My son is not in that position.

hsfan

I also worry about a few things in this sort of scenario

01-- shutting down can put the player in a position of not being in "tip-top" shape when he wants to be ie--at the camps

02-- you run the risk of pitching when not in tip top shape therefore hurting your chances and also running the risk of injury.

03-- the mental aspect--the player may not be as sharp mentally as he would without a shut down

Just a few thoughts from one who has been there

hsfan.....

I may be off base, so what?

What goes on in the winter months is exactly what the medical experts are cautioning us against. You say that your son needs to pitch, or come to a compromise so that maybe he can get a scholarship/spot on a college team or whatever. Therefore you are ignoring the opinions of the doctors for the chance of a scholarship.

Parents need to know that the next signing period doesn't begin until April......no letters of intent are going to be signed in December thru March.

Any parent can feel free to say that I am off base with my comments......as long as those same parents are willing to accept responsibility when their young pitchers are having surgery due to over-use, etc.

"If you don't take a stand, you will fall for anything."

SO WHAT??!!!

You said I would worry about my own health but not my sons! You don't know me; you don't know my son. You are in no position to make that kind of statement and by doing so show a lack of class.

I did not say we were looking for a scholarship. You are making an uninformed assumption. I did say my son wants to play college ball. We want a coach to see him to find out if he will fit in their program. You quote an article and act as if it is the only information that is relevant. If you look at the other replies on this thread there seems to be a few other opinions. Will all of these players need surgery? I doubt it.

Perhaps if you weren't so dense you would have had a better coaching record.

hsfan....

Feel free to listen to whatever advice best suits you. I don't know why you are saying anything about class......if you knew me then you wouldn't say that.....and since you say I don't know you, I can say the same.....you have no idea what kind of person I am, what I have accomplished as a coach over three decades, or what kind of a parent I have been to my son who pitches......but you got angry and began insulting me......if that makes you feel good, then do it......I contribute in these forums to issues that I feel are important.....you can choose agree or not, but to insult me and call me classless.....I guess you have the right to your opinion.....

I did not act as if the Collegiate Baseball article is the only one that is relevant, as you say.....but those words are directly from the medical experts that specialize in baseball......and as opposed to what you suggest, I did look at the other posts in this thread.....not one person disagreed with what was said in the article.......perhaps you should talk to the HS coach, since he wants the arms shut down for a while.

Be careful with throwing arms; nothing is guaranteed.

This is really old thinking here; like the idea that weight training will make you muscle-bound.

I wonder whether or not pre-teens should throw/train throughout the year. However, high school and adults will not benefit from "shutting down". What you will invite is injury. As Leo Mazzone states, "The number one cause of arm injuries in pitchers, is lack of use. Today pitchers throw much less than they use to. This is why you are seeing so much more arm injuries. I tell my pitchers that they must throw (not pitch) everyday even in the off season".

Think about. Do you benefit from stopping your workout or weight training program for several months? How about your golf game.

Smart, intelligent training programs that provide for sufficient muscle recovery should be implemented throughout the year.

The exception to this, is if you are pitching at a level that does not provide for sufficient muscle recovery. Less than 96 hours from maximum performance.

I agree with Mazzone to a certain extent for adults, professionals....and each case is unique.....Leo was not referring to teenagers, though.

hsfan,
You began this thread with asking for advice which was given, different opinions, but given, then you argue it, so why did you ask?
I did not see Grateful's advice any more than just another opinion. As we've said before, there is really no proof of what causes injury, only asumptions.
Advice for pitcher's , plan your season in advance, try to get an idea ahead. Then tailor work/rest periods accordingly.
Some say take off completely, some argue not to. It's hard when there are so many things going on. One cannot shut down completely in between showcases and camps, but there are things that can be done as suggested. I also found it confusing as we have different almost year round baseball due to our weather, up north it's different. Look at the big picture.
There is a difference in keeping one's arm conditioned and overused during the year.
You have choices. You can read about what the doctors say, what the coaches say and what the parents say and form your own conclusions.

There are two schools of thought on this. If your son is playing in secondary or high school level and is advanced in maturation such that he plays other sports, ie., football, basketball, etc, then his arm can get some rest while doing those other sports...except if he plays QB, of course.

However if you really want your son to achieve the maximum potential of his natural abilities in baseball, then the one and only sport he should be playing is baseball.

Some kids, like my son, wouldn't think of taking time off from the game, becuase they know, from experience that there is no neutral position for development...either they are progressing or regressing. Regression of the both physical memory and mental memory skills starts within hours of being idle.

My son, plays year round and loves it. Its more of a grind on us then anything else.

TPM....well put....we have an MIF....with the exception of December....he plays year round....and we worry about too much "muscle wear"....know with a pitcher....the concerns must be tenfold....

Think for the majority of us....advise is so very welcome....and that is why we keep following hsbaseball....we keep on learning things to help our kids....this thread doesn't directly affect our son....but Grateful's comments were insightful....and I think if posters take the time to share info....we need to be open and a whole lot less critical....just read it all....and...as you said....form our own conclusions.

PIC,
I do not know what level you are talking about, you stated your son is in college. Most programs shut pitchers down after fall practice (the ones who played in the summer completely), work on conditioning and long toss, mechanics etc. This might be reversed depending on the climate. I do believe there is some period for recovery at any college level, someone correct me if I am wrong.

T P Mom

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I did not see Grateful's advice any more than just another opinion.

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Read his reply.

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Or is it different because it is your body and not your son's arm?

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I don't think you would take kindly if he insulted you like that. That shows no class.

hsfan,
That was not grateful's first reply and answer to your question. I do believe you and him began that dialogue a few posts later on, and that was not my point, but there seems to be too many ego's around here lately, as well as insult's and negative comments, that point I agree with you on.
Don't have your son shut down, keep a conditioning routine with long toss. As you get closer to the camp, start bullpen. Fungo gave you an excellent suggestion, ask the coach for help.
One year my son shut down in Oct and attended a camp in December. He was not concerned with velocity and they were not either, but after a conditioning period he was in good form and was able to place his fast balls, change ups and curves where they needed to go, They understand your son's situation is not unique and aware it is an idle time for many pitchers.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
PIC,
I do not know what level you are talking about, you stated your son is in college. Most programs shut pitchers down after fall practice (the ones who played in the summer completely), work on conditioning and long toss, mechanics etc. This might be reversed depending on the climate. I do believe there is some period for recovery at any college level, someone correct me if I am wrong.

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The team is in fall ball now and the pitchers are split into an A group and a B group. A's throw in Tuesday's game and B's throw in Thursday's game. Other days are varied between weight training, long distance running and a variety of game situation drills, ie., fielding, defensive assignments, etc. Long toss everyday, bull-pen's and pole-to-poles interspersed between game assignments.

Fall Ball ends at the end of November and Winter Ball commences after the first week in January 2005. During the holiday break my son will be in Australia with the Areacode Goodwill Tour. So he will have played pretty much all year long since the 2003 Area Code Games in Australia of last December - January.

From the time he graduated from HS he has been lifting weights and has filled out quite a bit, and is much stronger now. He is on nutritional and caloric supplements plus vitamins which seem to have helped him stave off the usual colds and flu he use to get around this time of the year.

I don't make any value judgment on how others run their programs. The human body is a magnificent apparatus in that the more you stress it physically, and correctly, the more efficient, bigger and stronger it gets.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with shutting down for a few weeks every year. In the work world we call it a vacation. I have always been a firm believer in taking 2-3 weeks off every fall. No Throwing or lifting. Just cardio on the bike or running.

Don't neglect the soul and how benefecial letting the body rest for a couple of weeks can be on body and mind. The guys are not robots. If you choose not to take time off, then that is your choice.

To think that 3 weeks off of throwing will somehow hurt you is just uninformed.

BIG

If a player takes three weeks off as you suggest then if he does not get himself back in proper baseball shape before a camp etc during the holidays, he runs the risk of not only hurting himself but having a poor performance.

I didn't recomend it. I simply said that there is nothing wrong with doing it if the time allows. it is a choice depending on priorities.

I was alluding to the fact that taking 2 or 3 weeks off would somehow be risky.

I also found time to have my son shut down every year.

Last year my son turned down PG's world because it was just after his shut down time. It is a personal choice.

I do feel that kids need time to be kids. I do understand the need to go to showcases, but try to work in some down time every year for the mental aspect. I guess that is a recommendation. lol

TR/Big......good discussion.....

It seems as though one choice that some kids have to make at this time of the year is to ask themselves what is more important.....to shutdown for a while or to camp/showcase?

There may be risks/rewards witheither decision.

Each pitcher is a unique specimen as well. Most coaches do understand that.

guys you are arguing in vain.

People will do what they want and as long as these showcase guys keep putting them on in this terrible time of the year kids will get hurt physically.
LETS LOOK AT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE THE BEST IN THE WORLD the pros take 3 months off approx.,
there is a reason for that. Your arm needs rest, period. I am a high school coach in texas and the weather in my area is great almost year round. I work hard trying to get my guys to rest for an extended period of time. The ones that follow our advice have not had any arm injuries that effected them in the spring. We have had others that kinda went on their own and they have had some major injuries, (some have not). The first year i got here we lost our number one pitcher during the 2nd tournament and he will tell you along with his doctor that he did not rest enough throughout the year. Again look at the pros and see what they do, there is a reason for the time off.

Parent must make the right call not the kids, when we leave a kid in for an extended pitch count and we say the kid said he can go another inning everybody criticizes the coach. So now it is the parents turn to use their own advice.

ctiger

First of all we are not arguing--- we are DISCUSSING===

And you have not gotten the full thrust of our DISCUSSION !!!

As for the pros what about those who play winter ball and those who are in Japan playing right now ?

My point was regarding shutting then and then trying to be in shape for a camp/showcase event and a 17/18 year old has a different situation than a pro--different things to care and worry about

I have learned that my son responds positively when I work to remediate his drive to excell in sports (now Football and Baseball). Somebody said earlier, I really liked it, that it is hard to put a grown adults head on a kid's body. I'm afraid that if I don't slow him down and try to make him aware that life has many other things to offer all he would do is study, play his playstation, lift weights, train and practice.

Somebody else wrote about not neglecting the soul. I think that this is very good advice for teens and young adults. My son is 15, not all that interested in driving or girls. I think that this is because he has heard, many times for many years, adults and coaches say things like "oh! He was a great ball player but when he turned 16 he became just another kid with a car." or, "Once he discovered girls he lost interest in playing ball." It would be nice to see him socialize outside of sports with his friends. Lots of kids call the house for him to go to parties or dances but, he just isn't interested.

Time off is essential for my son to "recover" mentally from competition. He is very intense and feels driven constantly to be better than everybody else to the point where I get concerned about his psychological development. He seems to tolerate 90 games per year physically a lot better than he does mentally. From being an adult and observing many kids as a dad around highly competitive baseball for the last 6 years I think that I have seen a lot more mental "injuries" than physical ones. I can tell when my son needs the break at the end of the season when frustration starts taking over. It starts to get hard for him to "just let it go" when things don't go his way. It seems to me that this happens to kids when perspective has gotten out of whack in their life from being wrapped up for to long in the game without a break.

I vote for downtime as being necessary for their development as people and ballplayers. After taking time off, some of the "bad habits" that have developed over the year magically disappear when he gets back to it. (On the other hand my son is not a pitcher (thank you God), he plays MIF and CF and has a pretty good bat.)

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My point was regarding shutting then and then trying to be in shape for a camp/showcase event and a 17/18 year old has a different situation than a pro--different things to care and worry about

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Absolutely correct, sir!
If a hs senior doesn't have a scholly yet then camps and showcases will carry a lot of weight and the decision should be made accordingly. Less critical for a jr I think. Unless that junior really wants to go to a christmas camp. Then he needs to be ready. i just used to try to schedule some down time or "kid time". I am just offering an additional perspective. Nobody is wrong here.