Slider

As they say- "a breaking ball is a breaking ball no matter what you call it". I always like watching games where low 3/4 arm slot pitchers throw and hearing the commentators. Some call it a curve ball and others call it a slider. Ask the pitcher and some might call their breaking ball a slider and some call it the curve while yet others claim to have both.

My son throws from a low 3/4 slot and I have had other coaches ask if he was throwing a slider or a curve. In my opinion they are the same thing from that slot because they both basically have the same break motion- down and away from hitters.

In technical terms though, a slider is thrown with more of a traditional fastball mechanics that allows a greater velocity which translates to a later break which has a better chance of fooling hitters. Sliders traditionally have more side spin rather than downward spin which allows the ball to break more away from a sluggers potential "sweet spot" on the bat whereas a traditional curveball can only move downwards more than sideways and still in the potential "sweet spot" area of the bat. A low three quarter slot slinger actually gains the best of both worlds because his "breaking ball" will move both down and away from right handed hitters. If this slinger can learn to throw his breaking pitch with decent velocity he becomes the most dangerous thrower for a team because any hitter hates breaking pitches that lure them in to swinging but with no good potential for that pitch to end up anywhere close to the strike zone.

You watch a low 3/4 guy strike out batters on their breaking pitches and the ball is usually 6-10" away from the end of the swung bat in the strike zone.

I am mostly in agreement with GBM, but would phrase it a little differently, from a slightly different perspective. My son also throws from the low 3/4 arm slot, and he features a Curveball (and a very nice one).

I'm of the school of thought that the amount of velocity on a pitch, and the amount of rotation on the ball, are derived from the set of the wrist and forearm. When the hand is set directly behind the ball -- you have a Fastball (maximum velocity, least amount of "side" rotation).

-- 1/8 turn of the palm in and you have a Cutter
-- 1/4 turn of the palm in and you have a Slider
-- 1/2 turn of the palm in (Karate Chop) and you have a Curveball
-- 1/4 turn of the palm out and you have a Change
-- 1/2 turn of the palm out and you have a Screwball

We're of the school that says "set it and forget it". My son has learned to set his grip and forearm in the glove, and just to "throw a fastball". Ideally, all of these pitches should be thrown with Fastball mechanics and arm action.

My understanding (and testing) is that the Slider is tougher on the young arm because it requires more strength to hold the proper arm position throughout the delivery. Kids often wind up twisting their arm during the delivery itself, which is what berings on the higher probability of injury.

Results: Southpaw Son features a CB that breaks late, with a 11-5 or 10-4 break, that runs about 10-12 mph off his FB. It makes for a great breaking pitch, and his mechanics are vritaully identical to his FB, making ti very hard for hitters to pick up.

Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
1. What makes a slider so much worse than a curveball?

Worse in what way ?

quote:

1. What makes a slider so much worse than a curveball?

i think the velocity of a slider causes more torque/stress on the elbow, on young still developing arm's.

you said asmi didn't think curveball's caused arm injury's,more from overuse. i would agree to a point, you only have so many bullets in the gun. when a player is young, it doesn't matter how big he is. his body is still young. overuse isn't alway's pitch count's, throwing sliders can be overusing the arm.

you also said young players need to locate their pitches and change speeds. i agree 100%, you can't beat a good cu, instead of a slider. different fingure presure can give more movement on a fb without chance of damage.

my own opinions are based on what i have seen. you can find people that will back up whatever it is you want backed up.

as i said before,i don't want or need to argue this point. just trying to help. arm care is the thing.

bball
congrats on your son making varsity as a freshman. be careful, sometimes in the thrill of success we throw caution to the wind. enjoy the journey,it doesn't last forever.

Last guns on my son (both juggs and stalker read the same) were about a month ago during tryouts. Here were his numbers:

Fastball - 81-82 with a 6-8" tail
Change up - 71-72 with a drop when kept low
Slider/curve - 66-67 with big movement away and down from rightys.

SouthpawDad. I agree with you. Set and go. That is how I taught him to throw this pitch.

Here is a link to a video of his 5 strikeouts in 3 innings from his first varsity start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3JgNkBWZh4

Three were on the slider/curve, two on well placed fastballs.

Yankeelvr, I asked that question because on another thread I mentioned my son threw a slider. Several posters stated that a slider was a "big boys pitch". Never heard that said about throwing a curve. I started this discussion in response to that.

20, we are very concerned about his arm care. So are his HS coaches. They almost baby him. Give him tons of rest between starts. Won't let him play short on JV for 2-3 days after his varsity starts. He will DH, but not play field to make sure he is getting his recoup time. We're working it out.

If thrown like a half @zzed CB, I can see where it would cause pain (the old turn the doorknob) Sounds like your son throws the variety Steve Carlton teaches, ie true FB mechanics just released off the side of the index finger, not sure how this could be considered more dangerous than a FB.

Yup. When I taught him to throw the pitch, I said hold the ball like this and throw it like a fastball. Had good movement from the first time he threw it. Definetely does not "turn the doorknob". From time to time he will get under the ball, but he knows when he does it and will make the adjustment to "stay behind the ball". Much more effective when he sticks with fastball mechanics. Change up is basically the same. Change the grip and throw like a fastball. Very hard to tell by arm motion and arm speed what he is throwing.

BBall -- Congrats to your son! He looks great on the video. To my eyes, his pitch looks more like a CB than a Slider. Obviously, it is difficult to tell from the film.

Typically, I'm used to a Slider being a tighter break, with velocity closer to the FB (-3 to -5). The typical indicator of a good Slider is a tight spin with a "dot" the hitter sees. The CB grip/release (the Karate chop grip) typically flies with with a top spin rotation coming to the hitter.

I guess it matters less what he calls it (he could call it Fred), than that he can throw it for strikes, and that he is not straining his arm, or torquing it during the delivery to achieve the rotation. Best wishes to him for a successful year and career.

Yeah, I'm not really sure either. I think it has evolved over the last couple of years. At first his pitching instructor called it a cutter. At times it has been much closer in speed to his fastball. Right now it has slowed down and has a much bigger break. Like you said earlier, it is all a matter of degree and where you set your wrist. He may change it up depending on what he is trying to accomplish. Whatever it is called, it has been effective and I have had many educated people check him out before allowing him to throw it in a game.

I guess, when it comes down to it, there are those who think you shouldn't throw any breaking ball till your 16 and those who believe it is OK. Research backing both sides.

He definetely does not use it to compensate for lack of control. He hits his spots with all three pitches (overall-no one does it every pitch). He pitched a complete game - 7 innings - Monday night against the #3 AAAAA team in the state and only walked one. His comand is there. Breaking ball is just one part of his arsenal.

My son started throwing a slider last year, at age 14. This particular topic came up a few months ago -- about sliders being dangerous for younger players -- and when I told him my concerns, he laughed at me and said if sliders were really dangerous for him to throw, wouldn't his pitching coach and Tom House had said something?

Southpaw_dad, does your son throw one?

Don't know if it makes a difference, but my guy throws over the top. He has a curve that he sometimes struggles to throw for strikes, and a CU he doesn't like to pull out if he's blowing his FB and slider by hitters.

LHPMom

Comments on a couple of posts: 1) A lot of announcers can't tell a curve from a slider from the booth based on the break. 2) It's not a slider if it's 15 mph slower than the fastball. A slider has a harder, later break than a curve. It's velocity will be between the fastball and the curve. The point of the slider is for the hitter to think it's a fastball. 3) I wouldn't count on every high school coach looking out for a pitcher's physical best interest if he's getting hitters out. My high school coach went into the state Baseball Hall of Fame. I relieved more than 50% of the games I didn't start. I'd get to summer ball with a tired arm. His attitude was I had all summer to rest my arm. Who do you think he was looking out for?

Our coach and I have talked about this. My son will start probably once a week. That's with a three game per week schedule. He may be called in to close a game one other time during the week. In other words if he starts on Monday, coach said he may want him available to close a game on a Friday. Nothing wrong with that.

Like I said, we have talked about it and from what he is saying, he is inclined to err more on the side of caution. Season is early, but I have not seen anything to indicate that what he is saying is not true. Son started Monday night, JV game on Tuesday - did not play in field. No throwing whatsoever. Varsity game Wednesday - light throwing prior to game. Friday varsity game, wants son available to possibly close. Next start, next Wednesday. Like I said, coach is talking good right now and so far actions are backing it up.

I think coach wants him around for the next few years. He knows he plays summer ball.

LHPMom -- I do not want to speak for Coach House, but have had this discussion with him a couple of times. This is the understanding I walked away from those conversations with:

All pitches produce wear & tear. It's called physics. The "safest" breaking pitch for 18U Pitchers is the full Karate chop Curveball. It is the easiest position for them to pre-set and hold throughout the delivery, without twsiting the arm during delivery (a big no-no).

At the risk of inviting the pronation guru's into a conversation not intended to go down that path ... yes, the natural throwing movement ends in the arm pronating (plam out). When you throw a FB, the palm goes from flat, to pronated out. when you throw a CB, the palm goes from pronated in, through delivery, to pronating out after release. Yes -- there is "twisting", but it is happening in the post stress, deceleration period.

Yes, the Screwball starts pronated, but most kids don't have the strength to hold it; adding more strain to the delivery. I like the CB for 14U to 18U players because they can hold the position through delivery without strain or twisting, and the velocity change (-10 to -12) is great for getting out HS hitters. If you can spot a fastball, and throw a CB or CU for strikes, you can get through most HS line-ups.

For what it's worth.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
Last guns on my son (both juggs and stalker read the same) were about a month ago during tryouts. Here were his numbers:

Fastball - 81-82 with a 6-8" tail
Change up - 71-72 with a drop when kept low
Slider/curve - 66-67 with big movement away and down from rightys.

SouthpawDad. I agree with you. Set and go. That is how I taught him to throw this pitch.

Here is a link to a video of his 5 strikeouts in 3 innings from his first varsity start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3JgNkBWZh4

Three were on the slider/curve, two on well placed fastballs.

Yankeelvr, I asked that question because on another thread I mentioned my son threw a slider. Several posters stated that a slider was a "big boys pitch". Never heard that said about throwing a curve. I started this discussion in response to that.

20, we are very concerned about his arm care. So are his HS coaches. They almost baby him. Give him tons of rest between starts. Won't let him play short on JV for 2-3 days after his varsity starts. He will DH, but not play field to make sure he is getting his recoup time. We're working it out.

Not trying to critic your son's pitching, he looks great, has very good command on his pitches. What I don't like is that those batters are not as good as I think for the varsity players. Called 3rd strike on the right down the middle fastball, what's that about? Slider is not hard to hit at all if is in the strike zone. My son just love to hit sliders, you hang one on the outside corner, that will be a easy triple for him. The curveball will create more problems for a lot of good hitters, because the downward break, hitters usually can't get a good hold on it.

I blieve the slider is for the power pitchers, you have to throw near the fastball speed to be effective. I think if your son can keep the slider up to 75-77 mph and break down & out of the K zone,
he will have good success against the best hitters out of high school.

Actually, that team is the current #3 AAAAA team in the state. I believe there are 5 guys going to D1 schools for baseball. Not bad hitters. Called strikes were not down the middle. One to righty was on the outside corner. You can see the catcher set up outside. Started off the plate came back to corner. One to lefty was on the inside corner. Here the catcher sets up down the middle and reaches inside. Started off the plate again.

His breaking ball has a ton of downward break. Maybe it is more of a curveball than a slider. If you can fool someone with the pitch, you can get guys to miss. Major leaguers strike out all the time by being fooled. I only put together a clip showing the last pitch for the sake of time.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
Actually, that team is the current #3 AAAAA team in the state. I believe there are 5 guys going to D1 schools for baseball. Not bad hitters. Called strikes were not down the middle. One to righty was on the outside corner. You can see the catcher set up outside. Started off the plate came back to corner. One to lefty was on the inside corner. Here the catcher sets up down the middle and reaches inside. Started off the plate again.

His breaking ball has a ton of downward break. Maybe it is more of a curveball than a slider. If you can fool someone with the pitch, you can get guys to miss. Major leaguers strike out all the time by being fooled. I only put together a clip showing the last pitch for the sake of time.

For the good hitters, "right down the middle" means the middle from top to bottom, not inside to outside. Good hitters should hit the pitches painted on the line.
Yes, judging from the speed you mentioned, his slider is more like a curveball. The other thing bothers me a little bit is that he throws from low 3/4 slot, almost like a sidearm throw, it sure produces more sliding effects, but I wonder if this is the way to throw sliders, will it hurt his elbow or shoulder? Any experts? please comment.

Back to your question. I provided a link to Steve Ellis site with various grips of pitches for reference…..thanks Steve.

http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/articles.htm

The slider is the most damaging pitch there is for young arms (other than over use), many throw them with no problems however; it is just a risk issue. I personally don’t let my son throw them nor would I recommend them to anyone else. Most pitching coaches suggest you wait until college to throw them. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread you can pitch effectively with a good FB, CU and CB in High School. Heck you can pitch effectively in HS with two good pitches. The better your FB, the better chance you have moving up to the next level. It is that simple.

As Steve mentions in his site the differentiation between a curve, slider, cutter, slurve is based on the axis of spin and somewhat subjective. A slider will spin like a football with the “red dot” (axis of spin) toward the batter. That axis shifts around depending on how a ball is thrown and it is subjective as far as when a slider becomes a slurve, or a curve or a whatever.

Every time this issue comes up I repeat what most good pitching coaches will recommend.

Pre-HS: Focus on FB and CU
Freshmen HS: Learn how to throw a proper curve. It usually takes about a year to develop a good high velocity hard breaking curve as opposed to a loopy slow one. Continue to be obsessed with velocity and mechanics.
College: Learn a slider...maybe.

I can't paste the pictures here, but if you look at both pitches in his descriptions, the grips are pretty much the same. The description for the straight curveball is basically the karate chop motion. Can't do that with the low 3/4 slot. With the slider, ball comes off the side of the index finger, which is more conducive to the above slot.

Just seems to me that if you tried to throw the straight curve from a low 3/4, it just wouldn't work right. Your hand would be under the ball.

I don't pretend to know it all. That's why I've asked the questions to start the thread. I just think it may be a matter of degree whether you are throwing a curve/slider/slurve from a low 3/4. Maybe it should just be called a sidearm curve rather than a slider??? Not sure.

bbman:

You can TTFWIW. Don't hold too much weight on the information/recommendations from a bueliten board on pitching - some people may know what they are talking about and many do not. Find a good pitching coach in your area and work with him to make sure you are not overstressing your boys arm. Do it now as the stresses on the arm go up significantly as pitchers start throwing over 80. Sliders are really hard on young arms...see PG's post in the general thread to the starting over kid. I won't bore you with the details but is is a Vel. Squared function.

Based on my experience you may have to go to several until you find someone you and your son is comfortable with. Actually seeing more than one helps balance the information you are getting and different coaches sometimes catch different flaws.

Also make sure he has a good throwing program and he is doing the proper things as far arm strength development, warm up, and cool down and post pitching conditioning. I happen to like Jaeger but there are others out there.

Good luck as it sounds like your HS coaches have a good handle on managing the work load part.