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I can't wait for tonight!  I feel like a little kid again whenever the Red Sox make the World Series.  It brings me back to 1967 when I remember watching & listening to the World Series with my Dad.  Although the outcome was not favorable, I decided I wanted to become a baseball player at 5 years old.   My Dad promised to sign me up for youth baseball in the Spring after the youth hockey season was over.  That Christmas Santa brought me a real baseball mitt.  I've been hooked ever since.

 

This year is special whether the Red Sox win or lose, because under no circumstances did I expect them to be in the Fall classic.  Ask any Red Sox fan if they thought the Sox would make the playoffs....you'll get a "are your freaking kidding me after last years dumpster fire".   As far as I'm concerned this is just gravy on an unexpected year.  The pain of last year was far greater than any pain should they lose this year.  I've got the Sox grinding it out (as they have all year) in 7 games.

Originally Posted by fenwaysouth:

I can't wait for tonight!  I feel like a little kid again whenever the Red Sox make the World Series.  It brings me back to 1967 when I remember watching & listening to the World Series with my Dad.  Although the outcome was not favorable, I decided I wanted to become a baseball player at 5 years old.   My Dad promised to sign me up for youth baseball in the Spring after the youth hockey season was over.  That Christmas Santa brought me a real baseball mitt.  I've been hooked ever since.

 

This year is special whether the Red Sox win or lose, because under no circumstances did I expect them to be in the Fall classic.  Ask any Red Sox fan if they thought the Sox would make the playoffs....you'll get a "are your freaking kidding me after last years dumpster fire".   As far as I'm concerned this is just gravy on an unexpected year.  The pain of last year was far greater than any pain should they lose this year.  I've got the Sox grinding it out (as they have all year) in 7 games.

I predicted 78-84 wins. I thought division was so top heavy 78 wins could have them in last. I figured if everything went right and they won 88 it could win the division if everybody knocked each other off. But in this scenario I still figured they were toast in the playoffs. The one I got right was predicting Jays wouldn't win 85.

Originally Posted by Bulldog 19:
Originally Posted by Dad04:
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

Sometimes I think the NL team has a small advantage in the WS.  Also in a way that advantage takes place at the AL park.

 

Boston will play with it's normal lineup and hitting order.  The Cardinals lineup and hitting order will improve a lot with the DH.  At least, on the road.  In St Louis the pitchers will hit.  This too is an advantage to the Cardinals.  At least their pitchers have had some ABs this year.  Either way, the DH or the pitcher hitting is one ninth of the lineup.  That is a small advantage.

 

If Craig is available, it could be a bigger advantage.

In 2004 the same two teams played.They played two games in Boston then two in St. Louis. Red Sox won each game.

I don't think anybody was stopping Boston after they got rolling in the ALCS. And I heard on the news today them talking about the Cardinals playing late because of a rain delay or something and getting into Boston late.

The Red Sox played the Rockies in 2007. Two games in Boston, then two in Colo. The Red Sox won them all. They are 8-0 in their last two WS.

Originally Posted by fenwaysouth:
Originally Posted by

The Red Sox played the Rockies in 2007. Two games in Boston, then two in Colo. The Red Sox won them all. They are 8-0 in their last two WS.


Update.......Make that 9-0 in the last three World Series and counting!

I have never seen an MLB team choke in unison as badly as the Cards did last night. Nearly everyone, except Beltran, spit the bit and now he's got bruised ribs, which is about the worst pain I've ever felt. Much, much  worse than a broken collarbone or broken forearm, based on experience.

 

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

 

-Mike Tyson

Originally Posted by Dad04:

I expect St. Louis to put up a little bit more of a fuss. They might even win a game or two.


If they don't, I think we may see Mike Matheny's head implode.  He was the guy behind the plate when the Sox swept in 2004.  I don't think he has gotten over it.   That dude is intense!   I'd really like to know what he said when he went out to the mound, because I don't think any of it was directed at the pitcher.  I thought he may give the left side of his infield a foot wedge.

 

 

Well, I guess we have a series now.  For us who have followed the Cardinals all season, we knew game was was the exception, not the norm.  They have won 105 games this year, so they actually are a pretty good team.

 

Not signing Pujols looks better and better every time Wacha takes the mound. (Along with a AA outfielder we have because of not signing him.)  Amazed at how well he has done.  I am getting tired of the national guys talking about how they cant believe 16 teams passed on him.  Maybe the Cardinals know something about developing pitchers.  All three pitchers used were 22 or 23 years old.  Martinez might be the best of the bunch when it's all said and done.

 

For Sox fans, what's the situation on Jackie Bradley Jr?  I loved watching him in college.

Originally Posted by Mizzoubaseball:

For Sox fans, what's the situation on Jackie Bradley Jr?  I loved watching him in college.


He was on the 40 man playoff roster initially, but wasn't selected for the Tigers or Cardinals series. I've been following him as he is a hometown kid.

 

Initially, I think the Red Sox saw him as leverage or possible replacement for Ellsbury.  I don't think that is the case anymore.   Bradley needs more seasoning and experience to become a starter.   He was hitting below .200 when in the Majors,  and hitting around  .300 in the minors.  MLB pitchers were pitching him inside constantly, and he hasn't adjusted to that yet.   He needs more experience and time to develop is the net-net of it.  Several Red Sox prospects have developed and done well. this year, however Bradley isn't one of them. 

Originally Posted by fenwaysouth:
Originally Posted by Mizzoubaseball:

For Sox fans, what's the situation on Jackie Bradley Jr?  I loved watching him in college.


He was on the 40 man playoff roster initially, but wasn't selected for the Tigers or Cardinals series. I've been following him as he is a hometown kid.

 

Initially, I think the Red Sox saw him as leverage or possible replacement for Ellsbury.  I don't think that is the case anymore.   Bradley needs more seasoning and experience to become a starter.   He was hitting below .200 when in the Majors,  and hitting around  .300 in the minors.  MLB pitchers were pitching him inside constantly, and he hasn't adjusted to that yet.   He needs more experience and time to develop is the net-net of it.  Several Red Sox prospects have developed and done well. this year, however Bradley isn't one of them. 

I agree. If Ellsbury doesn't return I expect to see Victorino in center next year. I think it's what the Sox had in mind when they signed Victorino. Bradley is a year away.

Originally Posted by Mizzoubaseball:

 

   I am getting tired of the national guys talking about how they cant believe 16 teams passed on him.  Maybe the Cardinals know something about developing pitchers. 

I won't argue that point about development but Wacha is a 2012 drafted player. He came with the tools from Texas A&M,  probably just needed some tweaking.  I will bet that every GM up until that pick is shaking their heads.  There are a couple of stories that go with some of those young guns, but IMO scouting has more to do with it than any other reason.

For anyone interested, their philosophy is based upon throw as hard as you can.

Lots of kudos to Yadi and Chris Carpenter as well.

 

Wacha has a deceptive change up (with lots of movement) that compliments his excellent FB.

 

He also has never been seen by the teams he has pitched to, so he has the advantage.

Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by Mizzoubaseball:

 

   I am getting tired of the national guys talking about how they cant believe 16 teams passed on him.  Maybe the Cardinals know something about developing pitchers. 

I won't argue that point about development but Wacha is a 2012 drafted player. He came with the tools from Texas A&M,  probably just needed some tweaking.  I will bet that every GM up until that pick is shaking their heads.  There are a couple of stories that go with some of those young guns, but IMO scouting has more to do with it than any other reason.

For anyone interested, their philosophy is based upon throw as hard as you can.

Lots of kudos to Yadi and Chris Carpenter as well.

 

Wacha has a deceptive change up (with lots of movement) that compliments his excellent FB.

 

He also has never been seen by the teams he has pitched to, so he has the advantage.

 

I agree that the Cardinals have a player development track record that is very good. I also agree that Wacha has been outstanding since being called up. But the narrative has run dry, especially because it's simply not true.

 

Wacha was not "passed up" or "missed" by the teams drafting before the Cardinals. There were 7 pitchers drafted before Wacha in the 2012 draft:

 

Kevin Gausman

Kyle Zimmer

Max Fried

Mark Appel (didn't sign)

Andrew Heaney

Nick Travieso

Lucas Giolito

 

I have seen Gausman, Zimmer and Giolito. Gausman and Giolito both have higher ceilings than Wacha, and Zimmer is comparable. I have not seen the other pitchers, but I have heard from sources that all project in a similar fashion.

 

Unless Michael Wacha develops his breaking ball, he will not be an ace. He's a very talented pitcher who is doing great things on the biggest stage, but broadcasters tend to throw away logical perspective and professional data in favor of narratives. Scouts are there for a reason and are very good at their jobs. "Missing" Wacha in last year's draft was far from the tragedy that it is made out to be.

 

With that being said…the draft is not an exact science. Sometimes, players do things once they get drafted that surprise teams…good and bad. That's the way it works. To criticize teams for "missing" a prospect is pretty ridiculous, and causes me to tune out the broadcast even more.

Originally Posted by biggerpapi:
3-2 headed back to Boston!!!!

Yes indeed.   Who would have thunk it...on the verge of a World Series with one more game.  Baseball Gods be kind!

 

The side benefit of this World Series for me is listening to my 16 year old son crack up with everything Tim McCarver says.  He thinks McCarver is a senile old fool who needs to be put into a home.   I'm enjoying every minute of his enjoyment.   His favorite game 5 line was "Whoever wins this game will have the advantage going back to Boston".   His other favorite McCarverism is "Jarrod Saltalamacchia.....his teammates call him Salty".   He can't stop laughing for a good 15 minutes, and he get me laughing too.  There are a dozen more.  I suggested he make a bingo sheet out of the sayings, and we can play McCarverisms bingo.

Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by Mizzoubaseball:

 

   I am getting tired of the national guys talking about how they cant believe 16 teams passed on him.  Maybe the Cardinals know something about developing pitchers. 

I won't argue that point about development but Wacha is a 2012 drafted player. He came with the tools from Texas A&M,  probably just needed some tweaking.  I will bet that every GM up until that pick is shaking their heads.  There are a couple of stories that go with some of those young guns, but IMO scouting has more to do with it than any other reason.

For anyone interested, their philosophy is based upon throw as hard as you can.

Lots of kudos to Yadi and Chris Carpenter as well.

 

Wacha has a deceptive change up (with lots of movement) that compliments his excellent FB.

 

He also has never been seen by the teams he has pitched to, so he has the advantage.

 

I agree that the Cardinals have a player development track record that is very good. I also agree that Wacha has been outstanding since being called up. But the narrative has run dry, especially because it's simply not true.

 

Wacha was not "passed up" or "missed" by the teams drafting before the Cardinals. There were 7 pitchers drafted before Wacha in the 2012 draft:

 

Kevin Gausman

Kyle Zimmer

Max Fried

Mark Appel (didn't sign)

Andrew Heaney

Nick Travieso

Lucas Giolito

 

I have seen Gausman, Zimmer and Giolito. Gausman and Giolito both have higher ceilings than Wacha, and Zimmer is comparable. I have not seen the other pitchers, but I have heard from sources that all project in a similar fashion.

 

Unless Michael Wacha develops his breaking ball, he will not be an ace. He's a very talented pitcher who is doing great things on the biggest stage, but broadcasters tend to throw away logical perspective and professional data in favor of narratives. Scouts are there for a reason and are very good at their jobs. "Missing" Wacha in last year's draft was far from the tragedy that it is made out to be.

 

With that being said…the draft is not an exact science. Sometimes, players do things once they get drafted that surprise teams…good and bad. That's the way it works. To criticize teams for "missing" a prospect is pretty ridiculous, and causes me to tune out the broadcast even more.

The narratives sell well to the average fan. The average fan isn't very knowdgeable about the game. Tv broadcasts are not geared to the knowledgeable fan. I often make more complex observations for friends than the guys on TV provide. I'm sure many on this site do the same. Friends have said I should be announcer. I tell them the announcers know what I know. But they would be talking over the head of the average fan without time to explain themselves.

Originally Posted by fenwaysouth:
Originally Posted by biggerpapi:
3-2 headed back to Boston!!!!

Yes indeed.   Who would have thunk it...on the verge of a World Series with one more game.  Baseball Gods be kind!

 

The side benefit of this World Series for me is listening to my 16 year old son crack up with everything Tim McCarver says.  He thinks McCarver is a senile old fool who needs to be put into a home.   I'm enjoying every minute of his enjoyment.   His favorite game 5 line was "Whoever wins this game will have the advantage going back to Boston".   His other favorite McCarverism is "Jarrod Saltalamacchia.....his teammates call him Salty".   He can't stop laughing for a good 15 minutes, and he get me laughing too.  There are a dozen more.  I suggested he make a bingo sheet out of the sayings, and we can play McCarverisms bingo.

The McCarver retirement countdown continues. Hopefully we can skip 2 and go right to 1 and syanora.

Saltalamacchia's nickname is Salty.

 

JH,

I agree that Wacha doesn't have the upside as the others. He does need a better CB to remain a starter.

 

I also believe that next year will be a whole new ballgame for him once he pitches against teams a few times, that is the deal breaker for me. 

 

Cards do a great job of bringing up the young guys but I think now they are bringing them up too soon. 

 

They got ripped today by Bernie Miklasz in the dispatch, I agree with everything they say, they deserve the whole they have dug themselves in.

Why did Metheny have Waino repeatedly pitch to Papi, now tied as the most locked in WS hitter of all time? To get to on deck Jonny Gomes, who is hitting .073 in the WS?  

 

Why did the Cards pitch out with the most incompetent hitting pitcher (Lester) at the plate with a man on third base? Lester couldn't lay down a bunt to save his life? He knows it. I know it. Why didn't Molina? 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Dad04:

Why did Metheny have Waino repeatedly pitch to Papi, now tied as the most locked in WS hitter of all time? To get to on deck Jonny Gomes, who is hitting .073 in the WS?  

 

Why did the Cards pitch out with the most incompetent hitting pitcher (Lester) at the plate with a man on third base? Lester couldn't lay down a bunt to save his life? He knows it. I know it. Why didn't Molina? 

 

 

 

 

Why did Farrell let Workman hit in Game 4, and Lester in Game 5? Why is Jonny Gomes playing over Daniel Nava?

 

…Why are Mujica and Miller on the roster instead of hitters if they aren't being used?

 

No one is perfect, and there are a lot of different opinions on a lot of different things. These are, in my opinion, very clearly the two teams in baseball and are consistently among the best organizations in the game as well. It's hard to second guess that, even with all the information we have. 

 

That doesn't stop me from doing it, of course… 

Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by Dad04:

Why did Metheny have Waino repeatedly pitch to Papi, now tied as the most locked in WS hitter of all time? To get to on deck Jonny Gomes, who is hitting .073 in the WS?  

 

Why did the Cards pitch out with the most incompetent hitting pitcher (Lester) at the plate with a man on third base? Lester couldn't lay down a bunt to save his life? He knows it. I know it. Why didn't Molina? 

 

 

 

 

Why did Farrell let Workman hit in Game 4, and Lester in Game 5? Why is Jonny Gomes playing over Daniel Nava?

 

…Why are Mujica and Miller on the roster instead of hitters if they aren't being used?

 

No one is perfect, and there are a lot of different opinions on a lot of different things. These are, in my opinion, very clearly the two teams in baseball and are consistently among the best organizations in the game as well. It's hard to second guess that, even with all the information we have. 

 

That doesn't stop me from doing it, of course… 

Farrell wanted another inning out of Workman. He said if his crystal ball had told him he wouldn't get through the next inning he would have hit for him. However, after the fact he realized he should have double switched and bad Napoli batting 9th. Until the World Series Gomes was making things happen in the post season. He provides an emotional boost you have to see all season to understand rather than looking at a stat sheet. He just hasn't hit well in the World Series. But its all been worth it for one swing.

 

One of the Post-Dispatch writers criticized the Cardinals for rostering pitchers they aren't using and not having a third catcher so Cruz can pinch hit.

Originally Posted by Dad04:

Why did the Cards pitch out with the most incompetent hitting pitcher (Lester) at the plate with a man on third base? Lester couldn't lay down a bunt to save his life? He knows it. I know it. Why didn't Molina? 

 

 

I was driving home during this at bat.  Orel Hershiser was doing radio color, and he said before Lester came to the plate that his approach would be to pitch out on the first pitch in spite of Lester's 0.000 batting average.  Lester is a bad hitter, but he was able to manage a ground ball in that at bat, which suggests that he might indeed be able to bunt the ball, given 3 whacks at it.

Originally Posted by RJM:
Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by Dad04:

Why did Metheny have Waino repeatedly pitch to Papi, now tied as the most locked in WS hitter of all time? To get to on deck Jonny Gomes, who is hitting .073 in the WS?  

 

Why did the Cards pitch out with the most incompetent hitting pitcher (Lester) at the plate with a man on third base? Lester couldn't lay down a bunt to save his life? He knows it. I know it. Why didn't Molina? 

 

 

 

 

Why did Farrell let Workman hit in Game 4, and Lester in Game 5? Why is Jonny Gomes playing over Daniel Nava?

 

…Why are Mujica and Miller on the roster instead of hitters if they aren't being used?

 

No one is perfect, and there are a lot of different opinions on a lot of different things. These are, in my opinion, very clearly the two teams in baseball and are consistently among the best organizations in the game as well. It's hard to second guess that, even with all the information we have. 

 

That doesn't stop me from doing it, of course… 

Farrell wanted another inning out of Workman. He said if his crystal ball had told him he wouldn't get through the next inning he would have hit for him. However, after the fact he realized he should have double switched and bad Napoli batting 9th. Until the World Series Gomes was making things happen in the post season. He provides an emotional boost you have to see all season to understand rather than looking at a stat sheet. He just hasn't hit well in the World Series. But its all been worth it for one swing.

 

One of the Post-Dispatch writers criticized the Cardinals for rostering pitchers they aren't using and not having a third catcher so Cruz can pinch hit.

 

Yeah, I don't buy that it's rational to let a relief pitcher- who has never had an at-bat in professional baseball- have an AB in the 9th inning of a tied World Series game for a potential of one more inning of work out of him. There's in-depth statistical win expectancy, and then there's logic. Both point towards pinch hitting in this instance. I do, however, commend Farrell for recognizing he might have made a mistake. I give him the benefit of the doubt- AL manager, unchartered waters. 

 

I am all in on the clubhouse presence of Gomes. But he started 76 games this year. His presence was very much a valuable factor as a fourth outfielder. He does nothing better than Nava, and shouldn't be in the starting lineup over him. I wouldn't base my decision making off of one home run, and I'm surprised Farrell is. I consider him a very bright manager, but this one surprises me. 

 

Last edited by J H

Gomes started at the beginning of the series based on his previous series play. He only started the last two due to Victorino's inability to play. If the Red Sox win its hard to dispute who started. Gomes did make plays in the field I don't believe Nava would have made. Nava is slow. He was a way below average fielder until he became adequate this year.

Originally Posted by RJM:

Gomes started at the beginning of the series based on his previous series play. He only started the last two due to Victorino's inability to play. If the Red Sox win its hard to dispute who started. Gomes did make plays in the field I don't believe Nava would have made. Nava is slow. He was a way below average fielder until he became adequate this year.

 

Defensive metrics indicate that Nava is a better left fielder than Gomes. He is also a better hitter by a considerable margin, and has a platoon split that works in his favor vs. the all-RHP staff of the Cardinals.

 

Process and result are two very different things. If the Red Sox win the World Series, it will not cause me to stop questioning the decision to start Gomes over Nava (when Victorino is healthy). There is nothing that has occurred in the Red Sox season that convinces me it is the right decision.

Nava is most def a better baseball player. Not even close. Gomes is adventuresome in LF, very limited range, which plays better at Fenway than Busch. He typically make the routine play look like a web gem. Farrell was playing the hunch based on the fact that they were 6-0 in the playoffs starting Gomes. Not sure if it was mentioned.

 

RJM...Nava is slow. Gomes is SLOW. They are both what coaches refer to as "my bad body athletes."

 

Plus Gomes has that cool Army helmet.

 

Last edited by Dad04

Gomes does make spectacular plays on routine balls. But he makes the catch. I've watched Nava butcher plays and not make the catch. He's better this year. They're both slow. But Gomes has better instincts on the bases at the right moments.

 

I think Farrell doesn't believe in Nava against high quality pitching. He's gambling on Gomes having one of his big moments. He's had one so far this series in the three run homer.

 

The story behind the helmet ...

http://www.army.mil/article/11...gift_to_a_ballplayer

Last edited by RJM
Originally Posted by oldmanmoses:

Forget all the metrics. Forget a tools comparison. Gomes is like Eddie Stanky, who his manager Leo Durocher said, cant run, cant hit, cant field, all he can do is beat you! In professional sports that's the key metric. Winning, no matter how you do it. Gomes has helped teams win and win big.

 

The Red Sox baseball operations department seems to take the same stance. Forget "facts". "Being a winner", whatever that means, is all that needs to be quantified to build a successful team… 

 

Just in case you were wondering, Gomes has played 11 season in the big leagues and has played in the postseason 3 times…2010, 2012 and this season. His combined postseason batting average coming into tonight's game is .130.

 

I like Gomes as a player and I love him as a teammate, but thanks for the good laugh when you said "Gomes has helped teams win and win big."

 

Last edited by J H

The Sox were a team to believe in all year. Every time it looked like the dream was over they won. It started with when they fell out of first. When it looked like they were in trouble in game two of the ALCS I figured they would win two of three in Detroit and win the last two at home. They made it easier by pulling out game two with a grannie. When they went down 2.1 to the Cards I had no doubt they would win game four. Once again I figured they would have to win the final two at home.

 

There's a mental toughness in this year's Sox team that can't be measured in statistics. They have a bunch of players who understand playing in Boston and how important it was to win this year.

Last edited by RJM

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