Once again, here is the link to the presentation that Dr. Andrews and Dr. Fleisig did to little league. It is also posted several posts up.
www.littleleague.org/pitchcount/pitchpresentation.htm
And yes Doughnut, it does seem like they can't make up their mind. Even in this presentation, you will hear them say over and over that the curveball is not dangerousand that there is no evidence that the curveball is dangerous to the arm, but, then state that you should not throw the curveball. Really kind of weird.
Like I said earlier, it really seems like they are stuck on the old assumption that the curveball is bad, but their research shows that this is not the case and they are still struggling with this, just like many of the people who have responded to this post.
Like I said earlier, it really seems like they are stuck on the old assumption that the curveball is bad, but their research shows that this is not the case and they are still struggling with this, just like many of the people who have responded to this post.
They are writing one thing and not sure about it. I only had time for the first section and that was pretty clear.
they recommend
fb age 8
cu age 10
cb age 14
kb age 15
everything else 16 and above
They also state that breaking balls should not be thrown until the kid starts shaving.
Those things are taken directly from their presentation.
They also say that no one really knows what is the perfect time table.
They also state that breaking balls are related to higher amounts of pain in the shoulder and elbow. Never a good thing.
I haven't the time today to listen to the rest, but are you saying that they contradict this later on in the formal presentation?
Very weird indeed.
Dman JR is going to work on velocity, location, and the cu until he starts shaving. If he can't get batters out with those tools he shouldn't pitch anyway IMHO. Why risk it just to get a K?
they recommend
fb age 8
cu age 10
cb age 14
kb age 15
everything else 16 and above
They also state that breaking balls should not be thrown until the kid starts shaving.
Those things are taken directly from their presentation.
They also say that no one really knows what is the perfect time table.
They also state that breaking balls are related to higher amounts of pain in the shoulder and elbow. Never a good thing.
I haven't the time today to listen to the rest, but are you saying that they contradict this later on in the formal presentation?
Very weird indeed.
Dman JR is going to work on velocity, location, and the cu until he starts shaving. If he can't get batters out with those tools he shouldn't pitch anyway IMHO. Why risk it just to get a K?
Yes they do. It is weird. Listen to the second section. They sort of build a case for more pain throwing curveballs, then say that the biomechanics tests show that curveballs cause less force on the elbow and shoulder. Dr. Fleisig actually seems a little confused by the information as he presents it.
All right,
I just listened to the whole thing. On the cb front, they said that it was inconclusive, use common sense, and they have experts saying don't do it.
How in the heck does anybody get it is OK for pre shaving kids to throw cb's out of this presentation? He said it is inconclusive one time at the end. He said they don't hate cb's. He said that fatigue, over use and bad mechanics are the main culprits in arm injury.
He never said it was OK for young kids to throw cb's. Not once in the version I listened to. They recommeded to not throw breaking balls until a kid shaves about 5-6 times. Breaking balls increase pain in the joints. How can that be good?
Where did anyone get that it is OK from this presentation? From a couple of small studies that were inconclusive?
Wow, I am more convinced than ever. Fatigue, overuse, and bad mechanics are number 1,2 and 3. Breaking balls are also a concern and shouldn't be thrown until the bones are set. They made that very, very, clear to me. They also said a kid who throws over 80 is much more at risk but that is not a problem. Yet.
I just listened to the whole thing. On the cb front, they said that it was inconclusive, use common sense, and they have experts saying don't do it.
How in the heck does anybody get it is OK for pre shaving kids to throw cb's out of this presentation? He said it is inconclusive one time at the end. He said they don't hate cb's. He said that fatigue, over use and bad mechanics are the main culprits in arm injury.
He never said it was OK for young kids to throw cb's. Not once in the version I listened to. They recommeded to not throw breaking balls until a kid shaves about 5-6 times. Breaking balls increase pain in the joints. How can that be good?
Where did anyone get that it is OK from this presentation? From a couple of small studies that were inconclusive?
Wow, I am more convinced than ever. Fatigue, overuse, and bad mechanics are number 1,2 and 3. Breaking balls are also a concern and shouldn't be thrown until the bones are set. They made that very, very, clear to me. They also said a kid who throws over 80 is much more at risk but that is not a problem. Yet.
ditto D-Man where is the proof that curves are safer than FB`s.If you follow there advice throw no more than 50 pitches a game and no more than 200 per season.I think somebody has been looking for a
study to back there own belief`s.And if they really
cared what the scientific studys have been saying for 20 years youths throwing CB`S ARE NOT GOOD.No
where does ASMI ever say anything to dispute this.
study to back there own belief`s.And if they really
cared what the scientific studys have been saying for 20 years youths throwing CB`S ARE NOT GOOD.No
where does ASMI ever say anything to dispute this.
Look back to my post several posts ago. Dr. Glenn Fleisig stated in that post that "The research implies that amount of pitching is much more important than types of pitches." That is directly from him.
Also, they do say in the presentation that those that threw curveballs in a game were more likely to experience some pain. The survey (it was a survey, not a study) does not break down the specifics of what went on during the pitching outing. In other words, it is possible that the pitcher who only threw fastballs, only pitched 30 pitches and the pitcher who threw curveballs threw 90 pitches. That might not be the case, but it might very well be the case. There was also no evidence that shows that if you throw a curveball, you are more likely to need surgery.
The biomechanical study they did showed that the curveball puts less force on the arm than a fastball.
I, like you, heard over and over that you should wait to throw a curveball. But when it came down to it, both Dr. Andrews and Dr. Fleisig stated that the amount of and frequency of pitching overall is much more important than whether or not you throw a curveball.
Also, they do say in the presentation that those that threw curveballs in a game were more likely to experience some pain. The survey (it was a survey, not a study) does not break down the specifics of what went on during the pitching outing. In other words, it is possible that the pitcher who only threw fastballs, only pitched 30 pitches and the pitcher who threw curveballs threw 90 pitches. That might not be the case, but it might very well be the case. There was also no evidence that shows that if you throw a curveball, you are more likely to need surgery.
The biomechanical study they did showed that the curveball puts less force on the arm than a fastball.
I, like you, heard over and over that you should wait to throw a curveball. But when it came down to it, both Dr. Andrews and Dr. Fleisig stated that the amount of and frequency of pitching overall is much more important than whether or not you throw a curveball.
If you all go back to the original post it was regarding the poster watching a game where 12 year olds were 40-50% in a game.
The whole key is in moderation, not necessarily what pitch is thrown, but how much in a game and how often the young pitcher takes to the mound. The whole problem with the CB is the success younger players find with it, then it becomes their steady diet. In this day and age of youth travel ball, pitchers more and more than before. It takes YEARS to develop proper mechanics, yet we see 12 year olds throwing 3 different pitches in games. Those three different pitches means lots of practice as well. At 12 mine had 2 pitches, FB and CU, that was enough to work on until 14 when he was introduced to the CB. The whole thing is about using common sense.
As far as this new scientific conclusion, it most likely will change. The only constant factor in all of their studies has been ONE thing, excess.
No matter which way one views it, throwing a baseball in an unnatural motion and LOTS of different factors come into play regarding an individual pitchers injury.
The whole key is in moderation, not necessarily what pitch is thrown, but how much in a game and how often the young pitcher takes to the mound. The whole problem with the CB is the success younger players find with it, then it becomes their steady diet. In this day and age of youth travel ball, pitchers more and more than before. It takes YEARS to develop proper mechanics, yet we see 12 year olds throwing 3 different pitches in games. Those three different pitches means lots of practice as well. At 12 mine had 2 pitches, FB and CU, that was enough to work on until 14 when he was introduced to the CB. The whole thing is about using common sense.
As far as this new scientific conclusion, it most likely will change. The only constant factor in all of their studies has been ONE thing, excess.
No matter which way one views it, throwing a baseball in an unnatural motion and LOTS of different factors come into play regarding an individual pitchers injury.
I agree with you TPM. My son is 15. He has been pitching since he was 8. At 10 he was throwing a fastball and change up with a lot of success. At 11 he modified his grip and started throwing a breaking ball. I had a number of coaches and pitching coaches watch and make sure it wasn't going to be bad on his arm. His pitching coach (currently pitching coach for AA team) called this pitch a cut fastball. I'm not sure because the pitch moves away and down on a righty (he's a righty). He has never had any pain in his arm or elbow.
The biggest thing we do with him is keep pitch counts, take him out when he begins to tire and make sure he gets plenty of rest between outings. I think that is the biggest reason he has remained injury free. If he pitches to the point of fatigue, he will not throw off a mound for at least 3 full days, usually more.
Coaches need to know their pitchers. Never let them throw when they have tired, always let them get their rest between outings. Believe me, we have lost a number games because we took him off the mound either because of pitch count, or because he was tiring. You can't get so caught up in the game that you let a kid suffer to try to win a game especially before high school. It means nothing at that point. I have seen coaches let their pitchers go forever and just wonder what is going to happen to that kid as he gets older.
Bottom line is, it is amount of pitching and lack of recovery time that are the biggest culprits.
The biggest thing we do with him is keep pitch counts, take him out when he begins to tire and make sure he gets plenty of rest between outings. I think that is the biggest reason he has remained injury free. If he pitches to the point of fatigue, he will not throw off a mound for at least 3 full days, usually more.
Coaches need to know their pitchers. Never let them throw when they have tired, always let them get their rest between outings. Believe me, we have lost a number games because we took him off the mound either because of pitch count, or because he was tiring. You can't get so caught up in the game that you let a kid suffer to try to win a game especially before high school. It means nothing at that point. I have seen coaches let their pitchers go forever and just wonder what is going to happen to that kid as he gets older.
Bottom line is, it is amount of pitching and lack of recovery time that are the biggest culprits.
Common sense tells you that if a CB is less stressful you can throw more pitches. Also genetics plays a part in the ability to throw a lot of pitches along with great mechanics. When my son got tired he stopped throwing his FB. His own opinion was that the FB was more stressful on his arm than his offspeeds. The latest findings by ASMI state that they tried to find a direct link between CBs and injury and couldn't. They found no evidence that the CB put stress on the elbow etc. The MLB CB has wrist snap in a tomahawk motion and should not stress the arm aswell.
Typical LL CBs have a sweeping 12-6 motion and the ML CB has a late break motion whuch was taught to my son at 15 by the head scout of the Jays at a camp he ran in the winter here. The 1st time I researched CBs was reading Tom House Pitchers Edgdge series and he also said the CB was not a dangerous pitch. My daughters boy fiend taught my son the LL CB and he was a MLB prospect . He also said that CB was not stressful. My son used to mix in a FB or a modified circle change once in a while but if he was tired he stuck to off speed pitches. This allowed him to pitch longer than he could otherwise. In fact if he had to rely on his FB he probably wouldn't be a pitcher today.
My son would pull himself if he didn't feel 100%.
Typical LL CBs have a sweeping 12-6 motion and the ML CB has a late break motion whuch was taught to my son at 15 by the head scout of the Jays at a camp he ran in the winter here. The 1st time I researched CBs was reading Tom House Pitchers Edgdge series and he also said the CB was not a dangerous pitch. My daughters boy fiend taught my son the LL CB and he was a MLB prospect . He also said that CB was not stressful. My son used to mix in a FB or a modified circle change once in a while but if he was tired he stuck to off speed pitches. This allowed him to pitch longer than he could otherwise. In fact if he had to rely on his FB he probably wouldn't be a pitcher today.
My son would pull himself if he didn't feel 100%.
OK look, this can get swept into 1000 tangents but here's why it's 'confusing':
There are 2 separate studies performed by ASMI which (on the surface) seem to conclude opposite things.
STUDY 1: Kinematic comparison of various types of pitches
LINK: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/various_types.htm
Conclusion: "this study did not offer any credence to a common belief of many coaches that throwing a curveball is more stressful to the throwing arm compared to throwing a fastball."
STUDY 2: Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers
LINK: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/elbshopain.htm
Conclusions:
(a) "Pitchers in the 9-14 age bracket who threw sliders were 86% more likely to experience elbow pain during the season. Pitchers who threw curveballs were 56% more likely to experience shoulder pain during the season."
(b) "as pitch counts increased, the number of cases of shoulder and elbow pain also increased. At the 75-99 pitch count range, the risk of shoulder and elbow pain increased by 52% and 35% respectively."
So, it may seem the good Dr.'s are confused. On the one hand, they say it is less stressful to throw a breaking ball than a fastball; on the other hand they note higher incidences of pain in young pitchers who throw breakers.
I would suggest that neither study is conclusive or complete. They are good for what they are. Telling us that 9u-14u pitchers throwing sliders have higher incidences of reported pain is interesting, but does not necessarily relate to injury. It does not account for mechanical differences (is a well-throw curve ok? They don't know).
But on the flip side, the first study does not mean go throw as many breaking balls as you like. It is simply a kinematic study measuring pressure on elbow and shoulder joints. It also does not suggest that injury is LESS likely. That was not part of the study.
So, to folks who rely on the first study to justify their 10u pitcher throwing 70% breaking balls- you are overstating your case. This study does not repudiate previous research, it just gives us all something to think about.
And to folks who use the second study to conclude that curveballs=arm surgery/problems, you are also overstating your case. The research simply doesn't show breaking balls to be as bad for pitchers as some believe.
There are 2 separate studies performed by ASMI which (on the surface) seem to conclude opposite things.
STUDY 1: Kinematic comparison of various types of pitches
LINK: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/various_types.htm
Conclusion: "this study did not offer any credence to a common belief of many coaches that throwing a curveball is more stressful to the throwing arm compared to throwing a fastball."
STUDY 2: Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers
LINK: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/elbshopain.htm
Conclusions:
(a) "Pitchers in the 9-14 age bracket who threw sliders were 86% more likely to experience elbow pain during the season. Pitchers who threw curveballs were 56% more likely to experience shoulder pain during the season."
(b) "as pitch counts increased, the number of cases of shoulder and elbow pain also increased. At the 75-99 pitch count range, the risk of shoulder and elbow pain increased by 52% and 35% respectively."
So, it may seem the good Dr.'s are confused. On the one hand, they say it is less stressful to throw a breaking ball than a fastball; on the other hand they note higher incidences of pain in young pitchers who throw breakers.
I would suggest that neither study is conclusive or complete. They are good for what they are. Telling us that 9u-14u pitchers throwing sliders have higher incidences of reported pain is interesting, but does not necessarily relate to injury. It does not account for mechanical differences (is a well-throw curve ok? They don't know).
But on the flip side, the first study does not mean go throw as many breaking balls as you like. It is simply a kinematic study measuring pressure on elbow and shoulder joints. It also does not suggest that injury is LESS likely. That was not part of the study.
So, to folks who rely on the first study to justify their 10u pitcher throwing 70% breaking balls- you are overstating your case. This study does not repudiate previous research, it just gives us all something to think about.
And to folks who use the second study to conclude that curveballs=arm surgery/problems, you are also overstating your case. The research simply doesn't show breaking balls to be as bad for pitchers as some believe.
I didn't use either study to conclude that CBs were safe. The latter findings are more recent and were conducted specifically to try and prove a link. They concluded that there was no link.
I based my opinion on Tom House and his pitchers edge series and my son's assessment of what was hard on his arm. I also had great advice from his doctor who was a pitching coach with the Rangers and collaborated with House/Ryan on that series of books.
ASMI seemed to reach a conclusion in the eary studies before they did the research. I think they were surprised at their findinds in the latest research.
I based my opinion on Tom House and his pitchers edge series and my son's assessment of what was hard on his arm. I also had great advice from his doctor who was a pitching coach with the Rangers and collaborated with House/Ryan on that series of books.
ASMI seemed to reach a conclusion in the eary studies before they did the research. I think they were surprised at their findinds in the latest research.
Makes a lot of sense Xtreme. Although I think throwing a curveball is not as bad as some think, I would never have a pitcher throw 70% breaking balls. Got to mix it up.
Take a look at Adam Loewen. A 95-96 mph LHP. He is not able to pitch anymore. A 3.2 million dollar bonus and a 4 million 4 year contract and he is finished. He has been plaued with arm problems for years.
quote:No matter which way one views it, throwing a baseball in an unnatural motion
Apparently this one has been called into question as well. I'll have to get the name of the guy who believes it from my high school coach, but this guy doesn't believe throwing a baseball is unnatural. My high school coach and I were talking about it in the weight room yesterday.
All of these studies are nice, small but nice, but it comes down to your own personal experience whether you are pro or con on the cb debate. My son has shown me his cb and it is late breaking and nasty without a snap to it. Having huge hands help with spin. But he is not throwing it in a game or bullpen. He was shown how to properly throw one by his teams pitching coach and I am sure he would be the strike out king if he threw it. But he isn't done growing yet so it can wait.
I know that I can throw batting practice fastballs for 2-3 hours without any joint pain, just fatigue and muscle soreness. I can throw cb's for about 20 minutes before my elbow hurts and I lose all control over all of my throws. I assume my son has similar genetics to me(at least that is what my wife says) so no cb's for MY son until he starts shaving. In my opinion only, he needs to work on velocity, accurracy and the cu. He can get outs with those any day. We will just add pitches to his repetoire as he gets older and I think he can handle it.
We will err on the side of caution. What's the rush?
I know that I can throw batting practice fastballs for 2-3 hours without any joint pain, just fatigue and muscle soreness. I can throw cb's for about 20 minutes before my elbow hurts and I lose all control over all of my throws. I assume my son has similar genetics to me(at least that is what my wife says) so no cb's for MY son until he starts shaving. In my opinion only, he needs to work on velocity, accurracy and the cu. He can get outs with those any day. We will just add pitches to his repetoire as he gets older and I think he can handle it.
We will err on the side of caution. What's the rush?
Believe me, I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything they don't want to do. I am all for you holding off with your son, Doughnutman. I won't try to convince you otherwise. All I was trying to do was point out what the guys at ASMI were saying.
It's really kind of like the old egg debate. They used to be good for you, then they were bad, now they are good again. Probably never know for sure.
I do believe genetics have a lot to do with it. Minimize your risks by limiting overuse - should be universal. Beyond that, it's up to the individual.
It's really kind of like the old egg debate. They used to be good for you, then they were bad, now they are good again. Probably never know for sure.
I do believe genetics have a lot to do with it. Minimize your risks by limiting overuse - should be universal. Beyond that, it's up to the individual.
FYI
I started a poll in general discussion.
I started a poll in general discussion.
I'd be curious to see what age the kids are to see if there is a generational gap. Plus, kids who hurt their arms and aren't playing baseball anymore, probably don't have their parents coming to this site. 
I am still curious to see the results.
I am still curious to see the results.
What we have to go on is our own personal experiences. What have we actually seen during the course of our time in and around the game? What have people told us? What have we actually experienced?
I have never seen a young kid develop a good healthy arm with above average velocity that threw curveballs at a young age. Never. I have seen many youth stud pitchers that did in fact throw curveballs that never pitched in hs.
Why take the risk if you do not know? What is gained from throwing breaking balls at a young age other than fooling young hitters and winning youth games? What is the rush?
Young arms should be developed over time with the emphasis on proper throwing mechanics. There arms are not ready for the stress of throwing breaking balls. They dont learn how to actually pitch. Do what you want to do with your kid. But if you dont allow breaking balls what have you lost. And if you do are you ready to assume the responsibility if it goes wrong? Will you wonder if that arm problem was a result of your decision to allow it? Will you wonder if he inability to develop velocity as he gets older was a result?
Why take the risk? Is it that important to be a 12 year old stud pitcher who fools youth hitters?
I have never seen a young kid develop a good healthy arm with above average velocity that threw curveballs at a young age. Never. I have seen many youth stud pitchers that did in fact throw curveballs that never pitched in hs.
Why take the risk if you do not know? What is gained from throwing breaking balls at a young age other than fooling young hitters and winning youth games? What is the rush?
Young arms should be developed over time with the emphasis on proper throwing mechanics. There arms are not ready for the stress of throwing breaking balls. They dont learn how to actually pitch. Do what you want to do with your kid. But if you dont allow breaking balls what have you lost. And if you do are you ready to assume the responsibility if it goes wrong? Will you wonder if that arm problem was a result of your decision to allow it? Will you wonder if he inability to develop velocity as he gets older was a result?
Why take the risk? Is it that important to be a 12 year old stud pitcher who fools youth hitters?
i am not really on topic but i think it does relate to it.
i believe arm injuries for the most part are an accumulative injury. from pitching to much and not throwing enough. you may not actually have that ucl tear until much later.
i believe most tj surgery's come from throwing hard,before the body is ready. i would say most pitchers that need tj are hard thrower's. just my opinion.
i have talked with Dr. Andrews on several occasions. he said kids are throwing cb way to early. and there are more tj surgery's than ever at younger and younger ages.
for every player like bobbles their are players like mine. while he didn;t throw a cb until he was 14, he was ridden like a rented mule. has many trophy's ,all everything and a half moon scar on the inside of his left elbow.
nobody ever get's hurt ....until they do.even then nobody will remember why. exept the opposing players that couldn't hit his cb.
sorry to ramble.
i believe arm injuries for the most part are an accumulative injury. from pitching to much and not throwing enough. you may not actually have that ucl tear until much later.
i believe most tj surgery's come from throwing hard,before the body is ready. i would say most pitchers that need tj are hard thrower's. just my opinion.
i have talked with Dr. Andrews on several occasions. he said kids are throwing cb way to early. and there are more tj surgery's than ever at younger and younger ages.
for every player like bobbles their are players like mine. while he didn;t throw a cb until he was 14, he was ridden like a rented mule. has many trophy's ,all everything and a half moon scar on the inside of his left elbow.
nobody ever get's hurt ....until they do.even then nobody will remember why. exept the opposing players that couldn't hit his cb.
sorry to ramble.
Coach May I don't think that pitchers develop FBs on the mound. They develop arm strength by working out.
I can assure you that my son and a few others I know would not be college pitchers today if they had to rely on their FBs at an ealy age. Throwing a CB is a talent that has to be developed and not all kids can do it effectively. It requires a touch that most who only throw FBs have a hard time mastering.
I can assure you that my son and a few others I know would not be college pitchers today if they had to rely on their FBs at an ealy age. Throwing a CB is a talent that has to be developed and not all kids can do it effectively. It requires a touch that most who only throw FBs have a hard time mastering.
Nice post Coach May I agree what is the rush,plus
I am not willing to chance my son`s future.
20Dad sorry to hear about your son being rode like a rented mule, I saw this last weekend with a 12y/o
pitcher who threw 140+ pitches in a travel tourney
game,one curve after another.The next game(back to back games)he was at 2nd and could barely
throw to first.
I am not willing to chance my son`s future.
20Dad sorry to hear about your son being rode like a rented mule, I saw this last weekend with a 12y/o
pitcher who threw 140+ pitches in a travel tourney
game,one curve after another.The next game(back to back games)he was at 2nd and could barely
throw to first.
Got the same argument going on over in the General Forum. Coach May is right on. From my post on the other side:
This web site is about HS baseball and if you (or your son) want to make your HS team you must posses a good FB. End of story. There are exceptions.... but they are just that.... exceptions.
When little Johnny LL curveball wonderboy walks on to the field as a Freshmen with his blazing 62 MPH FB and the kid next to him is throwing 75, guess who is going to get the coaches attention. The best pitch in baseball has always been, and will always be a well located FB.
This web site is about HS baseball and if you (or your son) want to make your HS team you must posses a good FB. End of story. There are exceptions.... but they are just that.... exceptions.
When little Johnny LL curveball wonderboy walks on to the field as a Freshmen with his blazing 62 MPH FB and the kid next to him is throwing 75, guess who is going to get the coaches attention. The best pitch in baseball has always been, and will always be a well located FB.
BOF are you telling me that your freshmen in HS can only muster 62-75. They would be the slowest pitcher on my son's HS team back then. I considered 80 slow.
Coach May, excellent post. While we know that each young man and his genetics are different, I too have never seen a kid with a Great hook before age 13, become anything in high school. Kids who were working on developing their arms and fastballs, usually had a better chance of pitching in higher levels. I had read recently that ASMI discouraged a CB under 15 yrs old, and I have always followed that position, even before they wrote it. If a youth pitcher can't get batters out with FB and CU, then he should move to the outfield. Some Dads just want everyone to know that 11 yr old johnny has a great hook. I think this thread got 5 check marks for its Stupidity.
It's fun how you guys beat up on little Jonny and his dad. Fact is this dad waswn't hung up on myth and did his research and got the best coaching info I could. He was MVP in his freshman year as a varsity pitcher. Another fact is that if my son was at risk I would have stepped in and talked to him. His coaches never let him go out unless he was 100% and asked him every time he went to the mound. He was paranoid about arm injury. One time I asked him why he came out and he said he wasn't feeling 100%. He had just struck out 7 guys of the nine he faced in 3 innings. Was he caught up in the moment. Not at all. He had sat and cooled down in i9nclement weather and pulled himself. You guys look at old research and will never change and I am happy for you.
Everything I have seen refutes your beliefs. ASMI as you know now states they cannot find a relationship between CBs and arm injury. That doesn't mean that you won't injure your arm throwing one but you are more likely to hurt yourself thyrowing too often and FBs. I have seen way too many guys injured throwing FBs. Just a fact I have noticed.
Everything I have seen refutes your beliefs. ASMI as you know now states they cannot find a relationship between CBs and arm injury. That doesn't mean that you won't injure your arm throwing one but you are more likely to hurt yourself thyrowing too often and FBs. I have seen way too many guys injured throwing FBs. Just a fact I have noticed.
i would say more than a few good hs pitchers either weren't good or didn't pitch much,in youth baseball. not all but more than a few.
Bobble I totally agree with you when you say a fb is not developed on the hill. It is developed by working on good throwing mechanics , long toss etc etc. I do agree that learning to throw a good breaking ball takes time and a feel for the pitch. Now there are some kids that have a natural feel for a breaking ball as well. Some kids find it a little harder to get a feel for. I think there is a big difference in learning to get a feel for a breaking ball at a younger age and pitching in games and spinning it up there pitch after pitch.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
BOF are you telling me that your freshmen in HS can only muster 62-75. They would be the slowest pitcher on my son's HS team back then. I considered 80 slow.
BHD:
As mentioned my son was a HS Freshmen last year will be Soph this year. I purchased a Stalker and have used it at most games and have developed a pretty good idea of REAL pitching velocities. (note Mcdsguy "Dad minus 7 rule" apply's here - it is really accurate)
I am continuting to build up the data base and I keep a log book of all of the pitchers that I measure. I gunned a few kids off of the Simi High team that won the So Cal HS championship and saw a couple of 4th rounders taken in this years draft.
This is what I can say so far: (more to come as my son moves up)
Ave HS Freshmen: 70-72 Lots at 68-70.
Elite HS Freshmen: 76 (seen one throw 80)
Ave HS JV: 75-76
Elite HS JV: 79-81
Ave HS Vars: 79-80
Elite HS Vars: 85+
Note I have seen MORE HS Varsity pitchers below 80 than over 80. Tops I have seen was working 87-89 with 91 max. (taken in 4th round as mentioned)
A former pitching coach of my son said (and I am not sure where he got this data) that a Freshmen throwing 78 was in the top 3% of the pitchers nationwide.
I admit I have not seen a lot of competitve league Varsity games, but this data is from SoCal in a very competitive baseball area. As mentioned I will have a much better idea on Varsity level next year but this is real data, not some number from a "Dad" sitting in the stands guessing.
A few things here:
Why does a dad of a frosh/soph need a radar gun?
Too many talk about what they hear or questionable data---why?
Why do parents make judgements based on information they themselves cannot validate?
C'mon folks ---let get real
Why does a dad of a frosh/soph need a radar gun?
Too many talk about what they hear or questionable data---why?
Why do parents make judgements based on information they themselves cannot validate?
C'mon folks ---let get real
My readings were from a jug and my son was considered slow at 80 mph in varsity. Several of the pitchers were drafted as well or D1 college throwing 90 +. My son's reading were from MLB camps. At 17 he was throwing 83-84 and had scouts all over him but they wanted more velocity. The craxy thing is his velocity hasn't really changed much at 22 yo even after 3 years of college.
We did have lots of sub 80 pitchers but they were not very successful as a rule. We had several that were 85+ based on MLB camps readings. I also had a jug that was used by his elite team and charted their home games. They also had several 85+ guys. Below 80 was considered very slow.
We did have lots of sub 80 pitchers but they were not very successful as a rule. We had several that were 85+ based on MLB camps readings. I also had a jug that was used by his elite team and charted their home games. They also had several 85+ guys. Below 80 was considered very slow.
BHD:
PGStaff can verify what is considered recruitable velocities, but I consider these the elite category. One's that go to a D1’s or are draftable. You know the stats; these are the 10% of the Varsity HS players that move on to college or above. The facts are that there are many many other kids throughout the US (and Canada
) playing HS baseball and many will not throw over 80, they can have fun, be successful, and enjoy the experience.
You also know better than I that the make up of a HS pitching staff . You have your number 1 & 2 who most likely are in (or close to) the elite category that are getting 90% of the mound time in league play, and/or playoffs. Then you have the number 3-6 kids who are getting innings outside of league or are spot relievers. From a numbers stand point they make up a much larger population. These are the kids that I call average.
Since this is in the PreHS thread about breaking pitches, etc. I think the important point from all of this is that if you (or your son) aspires to be the number 1 or 2 pitcher on your HS team you better be working on a good FB NOW. You might make it without one, but then you better a) Be a Lefty b) As Coach May pointed out be a very good “pitcher” who can locate well.
The bottom line is that the higher the velocity you can throw the better your chances.
PGStaff can verify what is considered recruitable velocities, but I consider these the elite category. One's that go to a D1’s or are draftable. You know the stats; these are the 10% of the Varsity HS players that move on to college or above. The facts are that there are many many other kids throughout the US (and Canada
) playing HS baseball and many will not throw over 80, they can have fun, be successful, and enjoy the experience. You also know better than I that the make up of a HS pitching staff . You have your number 1 & 2 who most likely are in (or close to) the elite category that are getting 90% of the mound time in league play, and/or playoffs. Then you have the number 3-6 kids who are getting innings outside of league or are spot relievers. From a numbers stand point they make up a much larger population. These are the kids that I call average.
Since this is in the PreHS thread about breaking pitches, etc. I think the important point from all of this is that if you (or your son) aspires to be the number 1 or 2 pitcher on your HS team you better be working on a good FB NOW. You might make it without one, but then you better a) Be a Lefty b) As Coach May pointed out be a very good “pitcher” who can locate well.
The bottom line is that the higher the velocity you can throw the better your chances.
quote:playing HS baseball and many will not throw over 80, they can have fun, be successful, and enjoy the experience.
Great post. Need to be placed in the Hall of Fame for post. As has been mentioned here a few times, less than 1% of high school players will play in the PROs.
From BOF post on average speeds, it looks like there is a 5 mph in average velocity from Soph to junion and another 5 mph from junior to Senior.
Question for the Coaches out there in your experiance at what ages (on average) do you normally see the biggest gain in MPH for a pitcher?
Our HS pitchers were only allowed 12 outs. You had to have some good pitchers to round out the P staff. There were actually several who went to D1 college ball and a few to pro ball. What I found in HS was that sveral guys were going through hormons and wanted to work to buy a junker so they could date and party. I never considered them college or pro prospects. When guys get to 16-18 their interests change. I found this true in AAA city ball as well. Many had no prospects so they didn't take it seriously I considered that quite normal so my son chose to not play HS or AAA ball in his last year of HS. On his elite team about 50% went on to play college ball at some level. I might add that very few had any arm injuries. They worked out year round. Some injuries occured while in college but not many.
I would say over the years the biggest jump in velocity has come from the Soph season to the Jr season.
Of course the guys that work hard in the off season have jumped every year. But it seems from my experience that time between the soph and jr year you see the most.
Of course the guys that work hard in the off season have jumped every year. But it seems from my experience that time between the soph and jr year you see the most.
I definitely agree with Coach May about personal experience amd youngsters throwing CBs. I have seen two boys throw CB more than usual in LL and then both have Tommy John surgery after their sophmore year in HS. The funny thing is that both kids were the hardest throwers in their age groups and didn't need a curve ball to get kids out.
I think the parents like seeing their sons pitch "like the pros" and got a kick out of their 11 yo son making other 11 yo look bad. I believe it is a parents responsilbity to stop a kid from thowing so many CB, not encourge it.
I think the parents like seeing their sons pitch "like the pros" and got a kick out of their 11 yo son making other 11 yo look bad. I believe it is a parents responsilbity to stop a kid from thowing so many CB, not encourge it.
So you positive these hard throwers hurt themselves with CBs and not FBs.
quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
I think the parents like seeing their sons pitch "like the pros" and got a kick out of their 11 yo son making other 11 yo look bad. I believe it is a parents responsilbity to stop a kid from thowing so many CB, not encourge it.
I recently returned from STL with son who required arthroscopic surgery. After two MRI, nothing serious was determined other than some slight fraying that may be causing discomfort, but it was also suggested that the doctor take a closer look at what was going on.
After surgery the doctor came out to tell me how things went and asked a few questions. He told me that personally he was surprised to see such a healthy 22 year old arm, pitching since 8. Our philosophy, I told him, was to concentrate on mechanics, let velocity develop natually, limit playing time, innings, rest, develop two FB's and various change ups AND no CB's until a certain age and then allowed to throw more as he matured. Slider began to develop as a senior in HS.
Not to get into specifics of the rest of the conversation, it's amazing the info given to me regarding younger and younger players needing surgery (shoulder and elbow) or major time off to rehab in lieu of any surgerical procedure. There is no direct correlation between young players throwing CB's requiring TJ vs.shoulder surgery. An injury is an injury. There are conclussions that young harder throwing pitchers are more successful and used more often, and in addition, adding CB, sliders for more success at earlier ages than necessary.
So I beleive the above statement, after discussion with an ortho who has a very successful practice that treats sports injuries for all ages, to most likely be the biggest culprit in a phenomenon taking place in youth baseball today.
My best advice to do as a parent, what you feel is appropriate for your child's age limit, feel comfortable with your decision and don't let anyone else tell you what is right or wrong, because, obviously every pitcher is different and so are their parents.
The object I am assuming is that many of your players wish someday to reach the highest level of the game. That is almost virtually impossible to achieve if one does not remain consistantly healthy. You can read all the scientific information gathered and follow recommendations to the tee and still find that things happen. Most pitchers experience some bumps in the road, some bumps are bigger than others. Setting limits when they are under your care is a big factor, once they head off to college you have no control over what you can control when they are there. Your player is now in someone elses care and not all coaches CARE about their future. The healthy pitcher in college, will most likely be used often, especially if many of their teammates come with injuries before they have thrown their first pitch. Better to save those pitches for then.
The best prevention, I am to conclude, is common sense.
Most of the pitchers I know who have injuries got injured in MiLB or college. I am not sure why but a lot may have to do with the desire to win at all cost.
I think the best thing that could have happened for my son last year was that they video streamed his games in college and I was able to see what was happening to him. His mechanics were so bad I couldn't watch.
He has been home for a couple weeks and we have made great improvement to his mechanics. He was dropping his elbows and whipping his arm through. That for the 1st time was causing shoulder impingement. Aftyer working on his mechanics he feels great and is able to keep his ball down and breaking out of the strike zone like he used to do. He has been trying to get his velocity up and now understands that he has to maintain good mechanics. I showed him one of his teammated from HS who played 4 years at UALR and was injured 2 of those years. I said he was throwing just like him and could also look forward to shoulder problems just like him. Its your choice.
He now understands why he is injury free at 22.
I don't want to start another discussion on pitching mechanics but the elbows should be at shoulder height and rotate with a posh pull rotation with the upper body. He said his shoulder felt great throwing like that.
I think the best thing that could have happened for my son last year was that they video streamed his games in college and I was able to see what was happening to him. His mechanics were so bad I couldn't watch.
He has been home for a couple weeks and we have made great improvement to his mechanics. He was dropping his elbows and whipping his arm through. That for the 1st time was causing shoulder impingement. Aftyer working on his mechanics he feels great and is able to keep his ball down and breaking out of the strike zone like he used to do. He has been trying to get his velocity up and now understands that he has to maintain good mechanics. I showed him one of his teammated from HS who played 4 years at UALR and was injured 2 of those years. I said he was throwing just like him and could also look forward to shoulder problems just like him. Its your choice.
He now understands why he is injury free at 22.
I don't want to start another discussion on pitching mechanics but the elbows should be at shoulder height and rotate with a posh pull rotation with the upper body. He said his shoulder felt great throwing like that.