Stupid Coaches

I watched a nationally ranked 10U (10 yr olds) USSSA Majors team out of Atlanta play last week. Pitcher used the curve on just about every hitter he faced. The team's coach was bragging to me that he has 8 pitchers just like that one. He then went on to say he discourages his players from playing any other sports and that they can play tournament ball year 'round. My thoughts were; 10 year olds throwing the curve year 'round... I hope those kids are still around to play the game by the age of 14...

The question of arm damage not withstanding why teach a kid to throw a curveball at the shorter mound distance anyway? He is only going to have to relearn it all over again for 60 ft 6 inches

Banning curveballs would be ridiculous because then you'll have umpires having to make judgement calls on balls that move. I don't know if you'd necessarily want to put a number on how many curve balls a kid should throw but if they do have a curve in their bag of tricks, they should be able to throw it properly and throw it at appropriate times depending in the batter and the situation as opposed to a steady diet just because 10-12 yr old kids can't hit it. This is where they should be learning to pitch.

However pitchers at 10-12 yrs old who throw mostly curve balls are doing themselves no good down the road if they hope some day to develop into high school pitchers simply because by throwing so many curves, they don't develop their fastball. You can fool 10-12 yr olds all day with the curve ball or something they're throwing at that age resembles a curve ball because they don't know how to hit it. They'd get the same results learning a changeup but all kids like to throw curves.

When they get older, or start playing travel, legion or high school ball, that apprach will fail pitchers because hitters eventually learn to recognize the breaking ball and lay off the junk because often, it isn't a strike and at the same time, their fastball never improved because they never used it and developed it as much as they should so if they havent learned to locate it or failed to add some mph to it because they lived off curveballs all their life. As a result, they never learn how to pitch and they'll get hammered.

I would just like to thank the coaches out there who let their kids throw a ton of curveballs.

Dman Jr had a lot of problems with curveballs when he was 11. Always swung at them and sometimes even hit them.
He is now 14U and saw an average of 10 cb per game while playing around 80-90 games for the last 3 years. He can now judge them pretty well and punish them on occasion.

I am not sure if any of the pitchers who threw 90% curveballs are ever going to play in HS, but they really increased JR's chances.

Thanks coaches!

ASMI researched youth pitchers throwing curves. They could not find a connection between properly thrown curves and arm injuries in youth pitchers. They found a connection between pitching too often and uyouth arm injuries. ASMI was founded by Dr James Andrews, the most prominent sports orthopedic surgeon in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I would just like to thank the coaches out there who let their kids throw a ton of curveballs.

Dman Jr had a lot of problems with curveballs when he was 11. Always swung at them and sometimes even hit them.
He is now 14U and saw an average of 10 cb per game while playing around 80-90 games for the last 3 years. He can now judge them pretty well and punish them on occasion.

I am not sure if any of the pitchers who threw 90% curveballs are ever going to play in HS, but they really increased JR's chances.

Thanks coaches!

That is a beautiful comment! Mind if I use it...?

2 seasons ago we played a very highly USSSA nationally-ranked 11u team in which their goofy-Head-coach's own son threw 80+ pitches and we counted around 60 were curveballs... At this level, ANY curveball regardless of how actually good it is, is a GREAT curveball because our kids NEVER saw them... They went on to win a fairly close game, and I thought it was a great experience... After that we (coaches) started throwing good, tough-curves to our guys in BP so they could get used to seeing them... last season, we batted .386 as a team, because teams couldn't sneak "bad-curveballs" by our hitters anymore...

Feel free bolts, it isn't copyrighted(yet).

My other pet peeve with youth cb's is that many coaches tell their kids not to swing at them.

When is a better time to swing at cb's and learn how to hit them than youth ball? When they miss they learn. Sometimes they even remember what you told them about hitting the cb. Usually after the at bat but it sinks in over time. It is much better to learn how to hit them when you are 10-14 than when you step on the HS field IMHO. Take advantage of those cb coaches for your kids benefit.

Let'em take their hacks!

I can assure you that my son who is starting his last year of D1 threw at least 90% CBs since 10yo. Never injured and never missed an inning of BB due to sore arm.
He was over used and when he was tied they told him to stay with the off speed stuff. They told him that because they knew it was less stressful than his FB. As a midget he pitched 4 times in 5 days and faced Leaside who were the top midget OBA team in Toronto that year. He just threw CB after CB and they were not as good as he normally threw them. He picked off 5 guys in that game and threw right into the 9th until he loaded the bases with lack of control. The coach took him out and the coach came over after the game and was laughing. He said I have coached you son since he was 9 and he never yelled at me before. He said he had them right where he wanted them. Bases loaded and 1 out.
If you ask my son what was stressful on his arm it was the FB.
People just hate being shown up by a guy throwing slow mo.

cchs07 maybe they know more than you do about CBs. It was actually Tom House that 1st mentioned that CBs were not harmful if thrown properly.

We had an Pediatric Orthopedic Surgeon on my son's 11u team this year and he has been interviewed locally and published some papers on sports related injuries.

I asked him about the debate on curve balls at a young age. I asked him to shoot straight and not give me the "company line". He sighted the study by Dr. Andrews and said that they followed several little league pitchers for an entire season and charted all of their competitive pitches. A competitive pitch was defined as anything with a batter in the box. BP, real game, etc.

He said the findings did not show the type of pitch made a difference. In fact, different mechanics did not seem to make a difference. The study sighted the number of pitches as the single greatest determining factor in injuries to young pitchers. After 650 competitive pitches the number of arm injuries sky rocketed. Another factor that had more significance than type of pitch was arm strength. Those pitchers with stronger arms who threw harder than the average pitcher saw more injuries.

He went on to admit that there was a "company line" that Doctors follow because that is the safe road and no one wants to be labeled a crack pot or rebel in the medical field for stating the opposite of everyone else. He said as more studies are done and more information shows that pitch selection has less of an affect than pitch counts more doctors will change their tune.

The final straw for me was when he said if his son had a decent curve ball he would let him throw it in moderation.

Just passing it on...

For what it is worth, my son does not throw anything but fastballs and change ups.

I really don't want to get into the cb vs. fb thing and I am sure that a properly thrown cb is better for an arm than an overthrown fastball. But I have never seen a properly thrown cb at the youth level. I have seen plenty of breaking balls but the kids throwing them either don't do it properly and end up with a "slurve" or slider or they over throw the heck out of it with a nasty snap on the end trying to get that K.

That is why I don't like them. It is much easier to throw a proper fastball or circle change than a proper cb and they are just as effective in geting outs. Not K's but outs. My son is going to wait until he stops growing and at that time, if he is still pitching, then great. Throw a cb.

I see. So because you don't know much about CBs you refrain from throwing one. The one you are talking about should not be thrown until around 16yo.

Bobblehead,
I am sure that your son threw them very well at a young age and continues to throw them very well indeed. The proof is obviously in his success.
What I am seeing is that young kids are being taught how to throw a c/b, but when it counts and they need a strike out or they are facing a really good hitter, they over throw the pitch or really try to snap it off and mechanics go to heck. That is what I see in every tournament that we play in. We also see kids that throw 90% curveballs and they rarely throw it the same way twice.

This is the dangerous time in my opinion. I would rather have my son over throw a f/b or c/u than c/b before he is fully grown. I am not trying to change your mind. I am just trying to explain my position. I am 100% sure that many people on this site will take your side. People with a lot more experience than me.

Back to the original poster about 12y/o pitchers throwing so many curveballs from 46`.Great point!
That is too short of a distance to get much break
from a properly thrown CB.Good location with your
FB and a CU mixed in seems safer than snapping off
50 CB`s a game in LL.IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Feel free bolts, it isn't copyrighted(yet).

My other pet peeve with youth cb's is that many coaches tell their kids not to swing at them.

When is a better time to swing at cb's and learn how to hit them than youth ball? When they miss they learn. Sometimes they even remember what you told them about hitting the cb. Usually after the at bat but it sinks in over time. It is much better to learn how to hit them when you are 10-14 than when you step on the HS field IMHO. Take advantage of those cb coaches for your kids benefit.

Let'em take their hacks!

Are you familar with the name Gary Ward? He was the head coach at Oklahoma State when it was called Hitters U. He told his hitters not to swing at curves unless there were two strikes. The best way to not get beat by a curve is don't swing at it until you have to. In youth ball most curves are in the dirt. The pitcher gets behind in the count and has to come "middle" with the fastball.

The only time I tell my players (16u) to hit curves is if they think the pitcher is prone to hang one and they're looking for it. There's nothing prettier than a hanging curve being knocked out of sight on the second pitch of the game by a lefty off a dumbass lefthanded pitcher who thinks he can fool him with a hook.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
There's nothing prettier than a hanging curve being knocked out of sight on the second pitch of the game by a lefty off a dumbass lefthanded pitcher who thinks he can fool him with a hook.

LOL

RJM,
I am sure that college kids at the D1 level:
1 Know how to hit a bad c/b
2 The pitchers really know how to throw them.
3 Learned by hitting a lot of them in practice and games.

Youth baseball is the best time to learn how to hit them. Who cares if they make an out? I would rather have them learn a new skill and they can get more selective later on. IMHO it will be a lot harder to make a HS team if you can't hit a cb in the zone and it is a lot harder to hit one when it is 0-2 and you have to protect the plate. Heck, it is harder to hit a fastball 0-2 for that matter.

Who cares if they make an out?

They do!

And therefore we coaches should too. Practice is the time to learn how to hit them. Games are for the players and we should do all we can to help them reach their goals.

Extreme,
They also get all excited and think they did something right when they hit a lazy fly ball and the outfielder turns it into a triple.
At the youth level I would rather have them learning. Kids learn all of the time. We teach during games when the lesson is fresh whenever possible. It seems to stick with them better. Like swinging at a curveball that started thigh high and ended up in the dirt. Great time for a little reminder.

If its high let it fly, if it's low let it go. Take your hacks. Try to go oppo with it. Take it up the middle. Take one for the team.

Simple stuff.

Its not really the problem of actually throwing the curve but the amount it is thrown. Throwing a curveball is like anything in life...Try and keep it in moderation.

Most coaches think just cuz in a pro or college game there are lots of curves thrown with success and that 12 year olds need to throw them all the time to be successful but 12 year olds aren't the same as pros. I made good batters look stupid in high school with the change it's a great pitch and totally under used at the youth level.

Doughnutman:

What you say is true but the original post came off to me as a little too much "take your medicine kid"...

Any good coach pushes players to learn the game and needs to push them beyond their comfort zone to do that effectively. I just wanted to add to the conversation that it is important to keep their goals in mind and not come off as "Well, I know better than all you whippersnappers, so you will strike out and like it! Cuz' it's good for ya!"

Brussel Sprouts were probably good for me, but I still faked eating them when I was a kid and played brussel sprout basketball from the kitchen table to the kitchen sink...

I hear you extreme. It is always difficult to tell nuance from the typed word. If I was good at it I would be writing the next great american novel.

Our guys are about as far from the "whippersnappers" type as a coaching staff can get. We just don't mind if they fail on occaision. Our only goals are(and I have typed them many times):

1. Have fun.
2. Get better.
3. Stay healthy.

Winning usually takes care of itself and we win our share of tournaments. The entire coaching staff has the above goals along with the ultimate goal of getting them as prepared as possible for HS. The parents are also on board. It is a great situation and I am very thankful to be involved in it.

To get back on topic, our top five pitchers all rely on the fastball for outs. 2 of them, not my son, throw a curveball 1-2 times an inning. Their parents are OK with it now that we are 14U. Just goes to show you that on the same team you can have differences of opinion and still get along.

What interests me is that the most renowned authority on throwing injuries tells you something and you guys still don't accept it.Many have a belief system and this goes against evrything you believe and have taugh.
All my son's pitching teammates all threw CBs at 10yo and most are playing college ball with little or no arm issues. My son swears the FB was harder on his arm. He is 22yo and never had a problem. His hard throwing teammates have all had problems and several do not pitch anymore. One pitched in D1 and he was medical red shirted twice.

You objectives are very nice for rec ball but I would have a hard time with a team that didn't demand excellece from the players. Fun is the result of being excellent at what you do.

Well Bobblehead,
That is the funny thing about scientific studies. They tend to change over time. You never know and every kid is different. Maybe the difference in arm injuries is something little like max effort pitchers get hurt the most and what they throw and how often doesn't mean a thing. Get them all to throw at 90% and all of the injuries go away. How you can judge that I don't know.

And we are far from a rec league team. Never confuse fun with mediocrity. We just try our best to avoid burnout in kids that play national level tournament ball 9 months a year. We aren't the best team in the nation, but we can compete with anybody.

No doubt "overuse" is the main reason for injury. That problem exists in one form or another in almost every sport from marathon runners, to gymnist growth plate issues, cyclist with hip problems, swimmers with shoulder issues, etc.

Couple points that I've noticed in my limited tenure as a ball coach at the youth levels:
1 - Strike zones are "loose" for the younger ages. Coaches know this. So, when they observe an umpire with a loose zone, they will throw the kid with the breaking ball more frequently. We played everywhere from East Cobb to Florida and most umps at 11U are giving the pitchers at least 6 inches on both sides of the plate.

2 - Back to the original poster's point: "Stupid Coaches" is kinda harsh, but I think he's referring only to those that have no regard for a players wellfare. If a kid has a breaking ball that he can throw for a strike, the coach is likely to call that pitch. And he's likely to call that pitch more often. And if the pitcher is having success in a tournament game, the coach is not likely to pull him until the kid is tired. That's the primary reason I don't want my own kid throwing the breaking ball. If a coach knows he has it, the coach is going to use it frequently. And likely use it until the kid gets fatigued. Just came from a WS tournament in Florida where the tournament winning team pitched their breaking ball throwing 11U pitcher 16 innings over 3 days. Proper curve ball techniques don't matter when an 11 year old kid has to pitch that much. Its too much. I think its these type coaches that the original poster was referring to.

So yes, throwing too much is the main reason for injury, but having a successful breaking ball at a young age might actually worsen the former issue if the team has a "stupid coach"...

How did we (old timers) ever survive without all the rules and regulations we see now. Back i the neanthedral days we played every day on the sandlots. the equipment was not inspected. the fields had rocks broken glass. Cant remember wearing a helmet. Played till it was dark. If you had a curve ball you threw it because nobody could hit a good one. We all survived. many of us played high school a some college and 1 played some professionally. How did that happen?

I think the main difference is, back in the day, if you hurt your arm you just stopped playing or pitching instead of going to a doctor to get surgery. It was more a case of genetics than care.

I think reporting injuries along with having the surgical/rehab option have a lot to do with today's increased numbers.

Growing up, I never heard of one kid in another town who hurt his arm but I knew a few who stopped playing/pitching because of it in my town.

quote:

Originally posted by RETIRED GM:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
There's nothing prettier than a hanging curve being knocked out of sight on the second pitch of the game by a lefty off a dumbass lefthanded pitcher who thinks he can fool him with a hook.

LOL

I learned this hitting approach by being the dumbass lefty pitcher. I had one hammered so far it was a "three point homer." It sailed through the goal posts on the football field behind the rightfield fence. If you want to see how far the ball went, do a Google Earth on Hadlock Field (Portland Seadogs) in Portland, Maine. They haven't moved home plate or the goal posts since I threw the pitch. If you look up the ball is still in orbit thirty-five years later.

You can debate the wheres and whys but the fact is that ASMI reported their finding based on case studies. The fact is based on real life cases that more guys had surgury due to over use and FB. Not CBs as many believe.
There are more cases mainly due to the fact that new techniques can restor normal function of the throwing arm. Medicine has come a long way in all fields.

I Googled ASMI=American sports medicine institute & found an article at the top the page called Arm pain in youth pitchers, "the major fidings of the study were;
*the incidence of elbow or schoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a game.
*the incidence of elbow or shoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a season.
*pitchers who threw curveballs or sliders had greater incidence of pain than those who did`nt.
*no relationship between poor mechanics and increased risk of pain could be established.

based upon the results from this study,it is recommended pitchers between 9 and 14 years old
do not throw curveball or slider.These pitchers should utilize the fastball and change up exclusively.It goes on to talk about pitch counts.

Bobblehead is this the ASMI you are talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by westcoastbuckeye:
I Googled ASMI=American sports medicine institute & found an article at the top the page called Arm pain in youth pitchers, "the major fidings of the study were;
*the incidence of elbow or schoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a game.
*the incidence of elbow or shoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a season.
*pitchers who threw curveballs or sliders had greater incidence of pain than those who did`nt.
*no relationship between poor mechanics and increased risk of pain could be established.

based upon the results from this study,it is recommended pitchers between 9 and 14 years old
do not throw curveball or slider.These pitchers should utilize the fastball and change up exclusively.It goes on to talk about pitch counts.

Bobblehead is this the ASMI you are talking about?

Good post, WCB.

ASMI Article

I've seen that. However, in ASMI's presentation to Little League Baseball in which they advocate for the pitch count rules, you can see through out the presentation, the speakers say that youth pitchers should not throw a curve ball. However, when they present their studies, they sort of stutter, hem and haw and say that there really is no evidence that throwing the curve ball is more stressful on the arm. It is almost like they are wanting to stick to the old addage that a curve ball is bad, but they can't prove it. Here is a link to the presentation:
www.littleleague.org/pitchcount/pitchpresentation.htm

They talk about doing a biomechanical study on the forces placed on the arm while throwing a fastball, changeup and a curveball. The study specifically shows that fastball is the hardest on the arm, curveball is second and changeup is easiest.

That is the ASMI I refer to and there latest finds cannot establish a link between CBs and arm injury. They have only recently actually tried to find the link to arm injury and the results contradict there old theories. actually they would recommend that you don't pitch period or even throw a BB. We are talkinmg about comparative evils if you will. CBs and especially LL CBs thrown without the tomahawk action are safer than any other pitch. I posted a video of my son throwing it and you could clearly see that it wasn't stressfull on his arm.
You cannot group sliders with CBs.

bobblehead I cannot find the study you are talking about.Everything they have found goes against what you say your son did as a youth pitcher.Why you use
ASMI to back the way your son played as a youth is beyond me, but thanks for turning me on to a wonderful resource that cements the fact that youths
should not throw curveballs until they shave.

BBman put a link to a dicussion that bears me out on the CB. I attribute his survival without injury even when over used to the fact that he threw very few FBs and his mechanics. I know I have had this argument way too many times to think I can cnvince you. There have been numerous discussions and several kowledgeable posters over the years who have also had the same results.
A thread had alluded to the latest opinions several times and people surprised by ASMIs new take on the subject.

Here is a comment from the thread from someone who found the infp and did read it:

Another of the non-intuitive revelations that recently came out of ASMI was: Throwing breaking balls does not seem to correlate with youth pitcher injuries--at least in the studies conducted so far--despite a tremendous amount of 'common baseball wisdom' to the contrary. In fact, Fleisig and Andrews specifically looked for that correlation, hypothesizing ahead of time that it would be found. However, when the presumed correlation was not found, they were good enough scientists to report their findings without bias.

in that survey the #1 enemy of youth pitching was throwing too many pitches.Yet you talk about having your son pitching way past fatigue, how does this strenghen your argument, I do not see how you can use the ASMI to back your argument. Dr. Drisko from
ASMI recommends waiting until a player needs to shave before throwing his first curveball.Also the research for the survey was paid for by little league right after they received some bad publicity
about youths throwing too many curves ie; LLWS.

quote:

What interests me is that the most renowned authority on throwing injuries tells you something and you guys still don't accept it.

From a book I read once:

Expert: pronounced: ex + spurt. As anybody knows, an "ex" is a has been; a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.


There is also one so-called expert now saying that ball players should play catch yearround. That there is no need to take a couple months off.

I finally broke down and went to asmi

No curveballs age 9-12
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/elbshopain.htm

Am I missing something or is there another part of the site that says it is OK for kids to throw curve balls? I read most of the articles(slow work day).

Below is a paste from a forum discussion on the ASMI website. It includes a question from a member and a response from Dr. Fleisig with ASMI. Dr. Fleisig gives the same link to the site that I gave in my earlier post.

Here is a link to the page with the below paste:

http://asmiforum.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=youth&...ay&thread=288&page=4



jdee
New Member

member is offline



Joined: May 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 19
Re: Discussion about Pitch Counts for Youth Pitche
« Reply #47 on Aug 28, 2007, 10:45am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Fleisig, just wanted to get your comments on the litte league world series. It seems the pitch counts are now enforced in the series, but don't you think that kids throwing almost half of their pitches as curve balls or sliders is worse on thier arm than a high number of pitches?

JDee
Link to Post - Back to Top Logged


Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D.
ASMI Team

member is offline





Joined: May 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 570
Location: Birmingham, AL
Re: Discussion about Pitch Counts for Youth Pitche
« Reply #48 on Aug 29, 2007, 10:47am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JDee,

That's a reasonable thought, but the current research is not pointing in that direction. The research implies that amount of pitching is much more important than types of pitches. If you have the time, you might want to click here to watch the presentation Dr. Andrews and I gave to Little League.
Link to Post - Back to Top Logged

Sounds like they can't make up their own minds. I would like to see the newer study that is "pointing in that direction" because the one on their web site says no curve balls age 9-12.