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Teaching hitters.

deemaxdeemax500+ posts
Breaking down mechanics by using video is a wonderful tool that enables us to determine what the best in the business are doing while swinging a bat. IMO this is the easy part.

I want to further my coaching skills by learning how to TEACH what we see to hitters that are not doing what is done in a high level swing.

Many verbal que's get thrown around at the local cages that are easily disproven through video when taken word for word. (swing down, knob to the ball, shoulder to shoulder, ect...) I have seen instructors give my son lessons that made me cringe when I heard the verbal que's.....yet my sons swing improved, while not doing literally what he (instuctor) said, the que's put him in a position that resembled more of a high level swing.

What are prefered verbal que's used by coaches and players to get yourself or your student into a better position to hit.

Tell me and other readers how to TEACH:

-balance
-posture
-grip
-tip n' rip (personel favorite)
-rotation
-extension
-finish
-wieght shift
-hand action
-leverage
-tilt
-What am I forgetting?

Please list any que's that you have used to help address any of these issues with your students.
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T tfox100+ posts
Interesting subject


From experience,i can say that being able to read the students aptitude for instruction is crucial when trying these different instructions.


My son can take anything you say and make it work for him,he isn't so literall,he just takes what you say and runs with it.He does a great job getting things right this way.My son is hyper and ready to go at all times.


My daughter,(more reserved)on the other hand, takes everything you say LITERALLY and you have to be very carefull when working with her.She is a dancer and is able to perform any task you ask from her to the letter so you better be explaining it exactly like it should be done.She has been a real challenge but I think I found the break through.With her being a blackbelt,I have started using some of that back ground to communicate what is needed.
Last edited by tfox
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
deemax,

I didn't know if you wanted my input on these and so, I've waited to see what others posted. I'd like to add some thoughts. If you don't like them and since it's your thread, I'll remove them if you'd like.

Balance – balance is a dynamic issue and so, we teach it by being able to “move the middle” in a controlled way. We have a “board” that has a dowel (cut in half) screwed into the bottom of the board. The board has impressions where the feet should align but can’t be specific due to the height etc. of the players. Now, we have them work on weight transfer on that board. Naturally, that board is going to shift per the weight shift. I won’t go into too much more detail than this but we are looking at creating tension and a “tonus” during this shift.




Posture – Naturally I believe in “tilt.” You can reference the “tilt” of Pujos on Siggy’s site to see an image of what we’d like. Nose over black of plate. Back straight and pelvic load instead of bending over.

Grip – THIS IS FOR OTHERS TO ARGUE.

Tip n' rip (personal favorite) - NOPE

Rotation – Again can’t get in to too much depth on this. It is not a spinning out.

Extension - Don’t teach this and believe that we don’t want the hands leaving the body too soon. Take your arms and hold them out in front of your body. Try as you might, you can’t prevent someone of comparable size from moving those hands downward. Now, take those same arms, bring them in close to your body and activate your bicep. It is virtually impossible for someone to put pressure on those arms and move them BTW, we are not saying that the hands don’t leave connections. They do at some point in the swing and no one I know argues that. The argument then is whether you have a mental signal being sent to throw the hands or do they come off per other body reactions to the swing process.

Here are some images. However remember that I state that most posters on this site partake in "voodoo video" and so each of you interpret this video on your own.






One other question for anyone to think on. Does this image of Ortiz demonstrate that he is loading his scapula by raising that elbow slightly and thus also accounting for what some are calling "tipping?"
Last edited by CoachB25
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
CoachB25

You teach posture and balance from what I have gathered. What are the que's that you use when someone is struggling with these? I read "nose over the back of the plate" as one. Any others?

Why is the tip n' rip a nope. My studies and experience with teaching show otherwise. Tipping just needs to be done the right way (not with the wrists).

quote:
Rotation – Again can’t get in to too much depth on this. It is not a spinning out.


I dont think its a spinning out either, but its not spinning in place.

Your comments are appreciated and needed. My goal with this thread is to discuss and share "teaching hitting" tips for coaches and players. I want to learn more terminology and que's that gets hitters into better positions while swinging...every kid and swing fault is unique and requires a different approach.

I want to be a better coach.
Last edited by deemax
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
deemax,

I didn't know if you wanted my input on these and so, I've waited to see what others posted. I'd like to add some thoughts. If you don't like them and since it's your thread, I'll remove them if you'd like.

Balance – balance is a dynamic issue and so, we teach it by being able to “move the middle” in a controlled way. We have a “board” that has a dowel (cut in half) screwed into the bottom of the board. The board has impressions where the feet should align but can’t be specific due to the height etc. of the players. Now, we have them work on weight transfer on that board. Naturally, that board is going to shift per the weight shift. I won’t go into too much more detail than this but we are looking at creating tension and a “tonus” during this shift.




Posture – Naturally I believe in “tilt.” You can reference the “tilt” of Pujos on Siggy’s site to see an image of what we’d like. Nose over black of plate. Back straight and pelvic load instead of bending over.

Grip – THIS IS FOR OTHERS TO ARGUE.

Tip n' rip (personal favorite) - NOPE

Rotation – Again can’t get in to too much depth on this. It is not a spinning out.

Extension - Don’t teach this and believe that we don’t want the hands leaving the body too soon. Take your arms and hold them out in front of your body. Try as you might, you can’t prevent someone of comparable size from moving those hands downward. Now, take those same arms, bring them in close to your body and activate your bicep. It is virtually impossible for someone to put pressure on those arms and move them BTW, we are not saying that the hands don’t leave connections. They do at some point in the swing and no one I know argues that. The argument then is whether you have a mental signal being sent to throw the hands or do they come off per other body reactions to the swing process.

Here are some images. However remember that I state that most posters on this site partake in "voodoo video" and so each of you interpret this video on your own.






One other question for anyone to think on. Does this image of Ortiz demonstrate that he is loading his scapula by raising that elbow slightly and thus also accounting for what some are calling "tipping?"




I would say Ortiz is pulling his hands in to hit an inside pitch in this clip. I still can't figure out how anyone can say that the top hand doesn't get fired in the swing. Why would John Cohen's cue "shaft close to shoulder position" be important if you weren't keeping the wrist angle? Can you explain that to me?
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
I guess we all chose to see what we want to see in video and thus my point about what each "expert" states they see when they are trying to get the masses to follow. I see Ortiz "connected" and yes that pitch is inside. I'd say that those hands are locked in to position and are one with the kenetic chain from the ground up.
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
I guess we all chose to see what we want to see in video and thus my point about what each "expert" states they see when they are trying to get the masses to follow. I see Ortiz "connected" and yes that pitch is inside. I'd say that those hands are locked in to position and are one with the kenetic chain from the ground up.


Do you teach your hitters to stay connected, or to start connected? How do you address a hitter who disconnects early?
S swingbuilder100+ posts
Ortiz.....DOES NOT "TIP"

This swing is not Ortiz's swing. He was beat on this pitch and altered it to get to the pitch. This swing is useless in the teaching/ learning process for a good swing.

Disconnecting early is just casting. Casting is a result of poor use of arms and is not related to the hands.

quote:
Extension - Don’t teach this


WHY?

No good hitter "DOESN"T HAVE EXTENSION"

Its important and it must happen after contact and not before.
Last edited by swingbuilder
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
I guess we all chose to see what we want to see in video and thus my point about what each "expert" states they see when they are trying to get the masses to follow. I see Ortiz "connected" and yes that pitch is inside. I'd say that those hands are locked in to position and are one with the kenetic chain from the ground up.


Do you teach your hitters to stay connected, or to start connected? How do you address a hitter who disconnects early?


"Connected" is a goal. However, we all understand that other forces are at hand. No one I know argues that the hands/arms don't leave that connection point, to some degree, during the swing or finish. However, it is not a "teach" to have them do so. Rather, it is portion of the entire body reacting during the swing process. How do I address hitters that disconnect early? Well, I can't go to much into detail on that. My daughter hit a ball back to the pitcher this past weekend and was very upset as she returned from first. She looked at me and said, "I disconnected." Hitters often do this when they are fooled by a pitch. I'd think that the primary pitch to do so is a change. The key then is to work on that pitch selection, enable them to recongnize change, and then "sit to hit" to maintain tilt and connection in order to drive the ball when it gets into the hitting zone.

Please forgive me when I say that I'm unable to comment on certain drills etc. I do so per an agreement.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuilder:
Ortiz.....DOES NOT "TIP"

This swing is not Ortiz's swing. He was beat on this pitch and altered it to get to the pitch. This swing is useless in the teaching/ learning process.




I agree. Whether he tips with his hands or his scap load really doesn't matter, IMO. The process still helps **** his wrists and gives the bat a longer running start, which will add batspeed and give more power.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
Swingbuilder,
Tell me how to teach a hitter the techniques you believe to be true. No riddles, tell me what you teach a hitter who is tipping and not scap loading.

Dont tell me the bat is not tipped, Im not blind. Maybe arrogant, but my peepers work real well.




Have to agree here! What is the terminology of the bat leaning forward with this much angle?
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
quote:
Tell me how to teach a hitter the techniques you believe to be true.


Im getting an idea of what you dont like.

Tell me what you teach and encourage hitters to do when you see what you think is a fault?

This site is so full of stone throwers that posters begin to fear putting in thier two cents. Tell me what you teach hitters. Im not interested in debating your terminolgy, or trying to read between the lines and solve riddles. Put yourself out there.

I want to be a better hitting instructor. I want to pick your brains a little. I want to know what instruction works....even if it means having stones tossed my way.
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
B25
quote:
"Connected" is a goal. However, we all understand that other forces are at hand. No one I know argues that the hands/arms don't leave that connection point, to some degree, during the swing or finish. However, it is not a "teach" to have them do so. Rather, it is portion of the entire body reacting during the swing process.


Staying connected is not great que IMO. The hands stay connected to a point, but the barell must release and disconnect away from the body as a hitter reaches extention. Thats why I dont love this que, it promotes cutting across the ball IMO. I prefer to teach a draw, and have had some success in doing so. The hands should release, with the top hand getting angry.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:

Coach,

I don't really know how to say this without coming off as disrespectful, but I'm not meaning to be. It just doesn't seem right for you to be a moderator and promoting a form of hitting when you have the power to kick someone off of the site that promotes something different. I'm not saying that's what you did, because I know Chameleon's bedside manner has a little to be desired and maybe he deserved to be kicked off, that's not for me to say. But, you really shouldn't be arguing for Mr. Englishbey's techniques, IMO. Maybe it's just me, but it just seems like a conflict of interest. If it's done in a PM (as you've done for me in the past) it's different, but to do it on this kind of site just doesn't seem right. When you both had a chance to argue your points and people could decide which they agreed with I didn't have a problem with it. Maybe it's just me.


First, I was asked to be a Moderator and have served so for several years. I don't often post in this forum and NOTE this quote to deemax who originated this thread:

I didn't know if you wanted my input on these and so, I've waited to see what others posted. I'd like to add some thoughts. If you don't like them and since it's your thread, I'll remove them if you'd like.

Do you call this promoting anyone else's thoughts? I haven't mentioned anyone else's "stuff" or name or... I simply stated my opinion AND stated when I presented video THAT IT WAS UP TO EACH INDIVIDUAL TO INTERPRET WHAT THEY THINK THAT THEY SEE. Again, and I appreciate your position, is this promoting anyone else's philosophy?

By the way, I don't have the ability to "throw anyone else off of this site."
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuilder:
demaxx..Im not a riddle guy or a stone thrower. Tipping the barrel is a way to gain momentum and its works in conjunction with the running start of the upper body.

A good tipped barrel never stops once it gets tipped.


Agreed. I wasnt calling you a stone thrower, just telling you not to fear them. How do you get a hitter to develope a running start?
L LClifton10+ posts
deemax,
Hello.
I would call this a tip. (Tejada clip)
(Not to say that Ortiz's bat is not angled / tipped, it is.)
I think Tejada's tip is more like Bonds'.
In that he tips it away from him where Ortiz keeps his barrel angle pretty steady...I'm not trying to be picky with it but our late friend Dmac posted several clips showing the barrel moving like Tejada's and called it the "tip and rip"..
That just stuck with me.

Anyway,
The barrel, in this Tejada clip (to my eye) tips toward second base.


When Tejada moves the barrel rearward (untips) he is also passively loading his scap.
How does he get the bat to move in the arc?
He allows his hands to do it.

I personally don't have hitters think about loading the scap.
I do believe it to "get loaded" late in the swing.
Unconsciously.
While the lower body moves out the upper body(bottom hand and rear elbow)are moving rearward and up. (top hand is moving or gets moved-- down some)
Like this:

By this, a stretch is created.
I see this max stretch in this next stage of the Cabrera clip (I also believe this is where the scap is completely loaded. I also believe this is when the swing becomes "connected".


Thru this opposite movement the body is "wound"--and can unwind at max speed. IMO.

So I don't get accused of "voodoo video" Wink here is the full clip.


To get to how I teach it (to stay on topic) Smile
I try to get hitters to understand
"breaking the two halves apart."
(An attempt to
keep it simple for me and the kids) Smile


quote:
by deemax--The hands stay connected to a point, but the barell must release and disconnect away from the body as a hitter reaches extention. Thats why I dont love this que, it promotes cutting across the ball IMO.

I would agree, one could be 'connected' too long.
Last edited by LClifton
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Teaching hitters is something one learns from experience. Because the cues don't match the reality a hitting instructor has to be able take some of those time honored cues, give them to a hitter and then adjust his teaching based on the results. I know that my son took some of the cues he was given by a hitting instructor and implemented them literally. That didn't work very well.

There are some hitting instructors who use the same cues with every hitter and they are successful in some cases and fail in others. If the success stories are there people continue to go to the instructor. The very best hitting instructors are the ones who can adjust what they teach based on the needs of individual hitters as they can help every hitter, not just the ones who happen to respond well to their pet cues.

These days we just try to get him to maintain his spine angle and focus on line drives. The rest tends to take care of itself. Sometimes we do have to remind him to keep his hands back because one of the cues he took literally was "throw your hands at the ball".
Last edited by CADad
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
quote:
The very best hitting instructors are the ones who can adjust what they teach based on the needs of individual hitters as they can help every hitter, not jus the ones that happen to respond well to their pet cues.


I totally agree. The hardest part of instructing is the abilty to adapt to the players needs. I dont teach using a cookie cutter template and never will. That is why this thread is here, I want to hear other teaching techniques...
L LClifton10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
Lclif
quote:
To get to how I teach it (to stay on topic)
I try to get hitters to understand
"breaking the two halves apart."
(An attempt to
keep it simple for me and the kids)


Can you go a little further into detail on this?

Thanks.

Yes sir.
I had a heck of time getting the clips to play.
Take a look at the first Cabrera clip, please.
See his upper going back and lower moving forward?
That's what I mean by that cue. Smile
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