Texas Baseball ...Simply the Best

Man, gone for one day and I miss all the drama! Train and Wolf are outed and then posters are coming to Train's defense....wow!

Is this thread about dogging Train, censorship or about the interesting topic Train brought up.

Original topic :
Personnally I can't stand the idea of picking up guest players for the end of season tournaments. I know it is how things are, but I don't like it. We pay coaches to coach, and pay organizations to be part of that organization which is a lot of money. Then to turn around in bring players that have paid nothing, is not right. Your team is your team and if they earn the right wright to be in that world series then let that group play. Even my favorite team NY Hankees don't pick up players the week of the World Series. George gets the ones that beat him next season. I did not see The UT Longhorns pick up the Third baseman from Arkansas when they the Hogs were eliminated.
That is my two cents worth, I know, I know if I don't like it there is always rec. ball (Not an option), So we will continue to play select ball and what happens, happens.

Last word PD - Your comment was very Switzerland like, very neutural

I hear Switzerland is beautiful this time of year.

Great point Ed Sir!

I mentioned earlier that I see both sides to the guest-player issue. My son has been a guest-player and our team has added quest players. To compare the practice to professional or college sports the way you did is bizarre to me. (I hope that's not the "great point" you are referring to, knowitall.) However, we can make a reasonable comparison when considering the fact that players ARE added to MLB rosters for post-season play (prior to September 1st) and a college coach MAY lift a red-shirt at any time during the season. In those cases, the a playoff roster may not be identical to that which existed thoughout the season. Obviously, a college cannot add a player from another school.

When my son has been a guest player, I have had no expectations that he play a certain amount of time with his temporary team. And we have never looked at the opportunity as a tryout. We saw it as a chance(s) to help a team in a unique venue. Our experiences have been good. But --- I do agree that it can be disruptive to a team and its chemistry. I suppose it is up to the GM to set proper expectations and up to the coach to make it work. I understand hurt feelings as well.

I think, at times, it becomes a keep-up-with-the-dirtbags point-of-view....that is, the rules allow it....the dirtbags will do it....so we have to also.

I'm still in Switzerland.

PD - Does MLB pick up players once they are in post season play - no. Prior to Sept 1. it is still season play. Is a redshirt freshman still part of the School team - yes. Do high school teams pick up players in post season from other high schools - no. The point is that select baseball allows pickup player in Post season play, which is not the standard in other levels or sports. My son has also been on both sides. Its has nothing to do with hurt feelings. You dance with the one that brought you. I'm more impressed with teams that make it all the way with out picking up players, than the ones that pick them up from all over the place, once their team has been eliminated. We pay a coach to coach, that is the team they selected in tryouts.
I'm trying to make point and give my opinion.
PD you comments are a bit condecending for someone that is a moderator. I would hope that you would show the same respect, make a point or conter point. Knowitall saw the point I was making. This is just a discussion.

quote:

You dance with the one that brought you.

Gonna have to admit... I definitely agree! Not that it matters, but my son has also been on both sides of the fence so to speak.

When I was just getting familiarized with AABC, the rule of being able to pick up players was due to kids having other activities. Football, school, family issues are just some possibilities. Even if your kid would skip these things for AABC, some kids may not. This is not to say I agree with picking players up, but if it is for that reason... I see a point in it. I have had many guest players come play for my team and I've been a guest player. In my mindset, I'm fine with guest players coming to help my team out... I do anything to win. I mention this reason for picking up players because I'm wondering if it has any truth. It was simply what I was told by multiple people when I first heard the rule.

Thank you Ed Sir, again Great point!

Ringer1 and Ed Sir,

Your points are very valid and I too think the players that earned the right to be at the dance should get the honor to win or lose it themselves........ point understood

BB

You read my comments as condescending?

To further the discussion....those of you that are opposed to guest players....why do you let your son become one?

Maybe a team might need some "guest" players to make up for the "regular" players who bailed on the team and went to Area Code??

I have no opinion regarding guest players except that as long as it is allowed I would hope our coach would do everything possible to get us the best ones available. If it causes my son less playing time then that is something he needs to take care of himself.

Competition - it is fierce and "unfair" both in baseball and the business world. I tell the little crawdad that all the time.

First time due to ego,(which is the wrong reason and we did not know better), once due to an injury situation. Team's catcher was hurt and needed a back up catcher. We have also turned down a team to honor our committments to the current team at that time as they were still planning to play in other tournaments.

quote:

Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Ringer1 -- this isn't an attempt to have the last word on a subject, but...in reviewing your objection to so-called "censorship" -- loosely defined (by you) as closing topics down here....

Four topics have been closed since 7/19, out of approximately 135 --- one after mentioning specific players by name, one after repeated warning that a particular line of discussion was offensive to many, and one (ironically) with a final comment from you....

Quote by Ringer1

Posted Jul 19, 10:14 AM
I agree!!! I'm DONE!!!!!!!

I think we can all live with this kind of....censorship. Blame the Homelands Security Act.

I guess what I'm talking about when it comes to the censorship issue is when somebody doesn't like what is being said they bring up that they think the subject needs to be shut down. That's my issue. If you don't like the topic...don't add your input.

Now if you would like to go back to the thread that I agreed should have been shut down. I think you will agree that I repeated myself time after time and never got a straight answer. I felt like I was spinning my wheels. Which I was until DBAT GM sent me a PM with the answer. After that I was fine and I thanked him for the information.

I would like to know how DTiger would feel if his organization brought in a player to play his position for an end of the year tournament. How would you as a parent feel if your son played his position well all year and then replaced him when it counted most?

Like I said before, I don't agree with everything Train says but I will give him credit for having the guts to bring up issues like this. If I were a parent new to the select baseball world I would want to know about this sort of thing. You might not like it but he's right.

quote:

Originally posted by Panther Dad:
You read my comments as condescending?

To further the discussion....those of you that are opposed to guest players....why do you let your son become one?

Funny you mention that PD. About three years ago we were approached, to guest, by the team your son was playing on. We politly declined. My son felt honored that he was mentioned but that was about the extent of it.

Ringer1

I like you more and more with each post.....

BB

quote:

I guess what I'm talking about when it comes to the censorship issue is when somebody doesn't like what is being said they bring up that they think the subject needs to be shut down. That's my issue. If you don't like the topic...don't add your input.

I agree -- but few topics are shut down because the posters don't like the discussion. It usually occurs when there is agreement that the topic has run its course or when rules are violated. (And for the record, I agreed that your team's travel situation for the MM state tournament was just plain silly.)

I don't think people here jump on everything Train says -- he is entitled to his opinion, like everyone -- it's the way to says it that upsets people most of the time. And he knows it.

Peace.

My son has guested on a couple of teams thru the years. Earlier in his career, it was as a pitcher only, then later it was as an outfielder due to injuries on a team.

Every team my son has played on has had guest players in tournaments. It helps with the pitching depth and to fill spots that either were weak or had injuries.

Ringer1 -- I respect that you declined because you disagreed with the concept. We too have declined on a few occasions, for a number of reasons.

PantherSon was a guest player on DTiger's Super Series National Championship team in 2003. He may have taken a few innings from DTiger. PS had a great time in Colorado and has memories that will last a life-time.

In addition, DTiger has been a guest player for our group -- and he has helped us win.

Ringer- You make a valid point, but in a way it somewhat already happened... in a way. It was when I was much younger and I played SS. We brought a kid who also played SS. I played other positions, but at the time SS was my goal. He did not play all the time, I had my share, but he was there. He hit 5th in the lineup-my previous position. We ended up winning that tournament, and I can't say I minded him being there one bit. Maybe it was because I was young and didn't worry about it, but I knew the kid was a stud and he helped us win. PD would you agree this kid is a stud? .

I think it's important for each player to know the kind of player they are. I am not a stand out stud. I'm not a great hitter. I am a solid 2nd baseman that will work the count until the pitcher gets blue in the face (or at least that's the idea). Since I don't stand out in certain ways, I try to stand out in others... being a team player. If a guest player comes and he plays my position, I'm going to work my butt off to keep my playing time. If he beats me out, he beats me out... it's better for the team. I guess I hope scouts in some way notice that... though I don't know if they do.

PD- We both wrote about the same occasion at the same time.

I totally understand and agree that certain situations create a need for pick up players i.e. injury or due to a vacancy such as family/school obligations. In addition to these situations I think that it is ok to pick up players for post season play. I do think that pick up players should be limited to the following positions:

Pitchers
Catchers
DH.

If your team has gone deep into the season you are probably at a point that your pitchers and/or catchers need some help/rest this could be due to possible overuse (i.e. just a long season), due to the fact that the weather has gotten worse in post season (heat) these additional fresh arms then could benefit the team and the players they are helping (not replacing). It is how you view it helping vs replacing.

By the end of a successful/long season some pitchers and some catchers have been rode hard just to get to that point in the season and by bringing in fresh arms you might just be saving an arm from injury without even knowing it.

As to picking up position players*, I am not so keen on picking them up in fact I would take offense to it if our team's position player (that they are replacing) was healthy and had contributed to our season in both ability and attitude. Again, dance with the one that got you there............don't create a possible cancer at this point in the season.

As to picking up a DH, I can see the need to do this as sometimes bats that were once Hot in the early part of the season can go cold and visa versa. I would support a DH as long as no outside promises were made such as "you get us the big hits I will get you on the field". That isn't their role, their role is to produce for you at the plate...........again a cancer waiting to happen if the coach does this.

Pick up players have been and always will be a sore spot with players and parents because it is a change in chemistry and someone almost always loses out if it is not managed correctly. It is all in how it is introduced to the team and how it is handled by the coach/manager from the start and then by the players and the families from that point on.


And one thing we tend to forget about pick up players is that the pick up player was ASKED/Invited by the coach/manager to be part of the team and from the moment they step into the dugout the microscope is on them and on their families......Just look at the parents and usually they are the one's sitting away from the group because they don't know any one, they understand there is some tension there and they are viewed as "rentals"...........Every time their son takes the field he is expected to be the HERO not the Zero....it just isn't fun....but it can be the difference in post season when it all WORKS OUT>

*you might think I am anti picking up position players because it would take time/a position from my son, no he is a pitcher so it wouldn't affect him I just have seen it be a HUGE problem.

Ran accross this article.
Forums - what are they good for?

The bumper sticker goes: "*orn - driving the Internet since 1986." While there's no denying pornography's long-standing reign over the Net, the runner-up to the throne would have to be the mighty forum: messageboards and all those virtual common rooms where people can gather and communicate. Forums often cop a bit of a beating, mostly for harbouring people who have not yet mastered the art of acceptable social behaviour, and there's a lot of merit to this belief, although it's not all bad...

It's oft been said (mostly by n00bs that have been flamed for not adhering to posting guidelines), that Internet communities are the refuge of the lonely, bored and socially retarded. Because users' true identities are protected by the anonymity of the Web, they aren't judged on physicality, hence it becoming a sanctuary for those who don't fit society's perception of physical attractiveness. While existing in a virtual world where looks are redundant obviously has its benefits, there are plenty of downsides, which are unfortunately made worse by the lower echelons of Net users.

While it would be nice to place the blame for Net nastiness firmly in the lap of one particular type of people, the Web is your ultimate social leveller and it seems that (with the exception of a few world-class trolls who fall into the sub-human category) everyone is equally susceptible to being a part of one of these lower echelons. Even the most tolerant person will deride another if pushed far enough. Because Net communities are formed by like-minded people coming together to talk like-minded things, messageboards can quickly become cliquey. Each clique sets up its own rules (see: 'guidelines on posting') re-inforcing norms designed to include members (and exclude newbies), which can foster an environment where anything less than extreme conformity results in rejection. This doesn't exactly breed the sort of environment where people feel safe to post their views, something most forums ironically pride themselves on providing. Established forums are most unforgiving when it comes to newbs and even long-time members can face the wrath of the board if they oppose the dominant way of thinking for too long.

In the real world, in face-to-face, non-anonymous human interaction there's such a thing as accountability. There's no 'hiding behind a keyboard' or changing your avatar and user name when you insult someone in the real world, which is why so many people use the Net (a non-consequential environment) to indulge themselves in normally consequential acts. Thus, one of the biggest benefits of the Internet also becomes its biggest detracting feature, with censorship at the core of the issue. (ie. How visible should moderators be/ should they have the power to delete post etc etc).

Despite the bitchery, Internet communities are yet valuable resources, they link people together who may be separated by physical distance or circumstance on the common ground of shared interests and provide a relatively safe arena for open discussion. Forums are useful in providing ongoing discourse about topics that may not be easily broached in the real world, and this value is strengthened by the accessibility of information on the Net at large.

So, to answer the question, forums do perform valuable functions - both real and virtual. While there's not a lot of worth to a forum that's full of unchecked criticism and self-indulgent whining, there is a place for open-ended discussion, and the airing of issues to stimulate debate. So newbies, don't be scared of posting, go forth and forum. And, if you can't find a forum you can relate to, don't despair - there'll always be *orn.

quote:

Originally posted by knowitall:
It's oft been said (mostly by n00bs that have been flamed for not adhering to posting guidelines), that Internet communities are the refuge of the lonely, bored and socially retarded. Because users' true identities are protected by the anonymity of the Web, they aren't judged on physicality, hence it becoming a sanctuary for those who don't fit society's perception of physical attractiveness.

They have me pegged.....

I think they were talking about me in the second paragraph.

That's a pretty good article. Where did you find it?

Difference is most of us on this forum can no longer hide behind annoymity so there goes that theory......

outside of that, let me see....lonely???? bored???? socially retarded?????

Gee,,,,,the one I know I can fess up to is the socially retarded statement and I prefer "socially challenged".....

quote:

Originally posted by Wonder Boy:
Please just take his advice and ignore Steve/Train. You should hear him talk about all this like its some kind of game. I quit posting after my sons summer coach asked me to and I deleted my posts. Was told Train and me were causing a big ruckus and making Tigers look bad. I stopped but Steve just kept on going and now Cameron has been kicked off the team for it. I tried to get Amber to talk some sense into him but he's on a mission to be as disruptive as he can be. Best for all you guys to try to ignore him because he feeds off people getting mad at him. Please don't hold this against the Tigers.

I know this may seem really late, and I don't want to stir anything else up but I've been asked to clear this up. I spoke with a coach from the team that said Cameron was never asked to leave. Cameron was plagued by an elbow injury this entire year which required him to lay off or it would've needed surgery. He is very much apart of the organization--he attended games in support. As for his dad, he never showed up to any games this year the coach said. Whoever Train was/is knew about team situations in Colorado when Cameron didn't attend the event. Once again, I really don't want anyone to comment on this... all I am saying is Cameron Watten was never kicked off the team.

DTIGER....darn right he was not. I am glad someone cleared that up.

DBAT GM....outed???? Get real......I have many friends in here too and they dont work for me!

Its gonna take a lot more than that to get rid of me.

Interesting though, and very appreciatitive, how many have come to my defense. People know I am right and too many times people are just afraid to open their mouths cause the politics kick in.

TRAINS back and have many new friends in Ringer1, knowitall, and bleacherbumin!!

This just in (from a website):
Dallas Patriots 17u Finish 2nd in the World Series!

The Dallas Patriots 17 finished the season as the 2nd ranked team in the World for the 17u age group, losing in the championship game on a walk-off homerun. The Patriots 17 team had an incredible year winning the AABC State/Regional Tournament as well as finishing 2nd in the BBI 18u division.


----------------------------------
Holy Cow!! The entire world? Tough luck DBAT and Tigers...

I had this big long post written only to erase under a theory I learned long ago........

"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all"

This thread may be the biggest time waster I have ever encountered.

Again, I ask myself..........If you added up all the FIRST HAND "next level" experience from every poster who's posted on this thread, how many years would it be?

Bottom line......I sure hope in years to come, that some men with integrity and understanding of what amatuer baseball is all about come forth. Not saying they aren't out there, but there are few. This stuff is going to hell in a hand basket quick.

P.S. I had a manager in Short season A ball that called us the Helena Handbasket's. We were really the Helena Brewers.

Ken,

I'll tell you what first hand, next level experience many of us have - we're parents of baseball players at many different levels and that's all the experience we need to be welcome here. And I believe many of us have great integrity and a great understanding of amateur baseball from a parent's perspective - probably better than you.

I don't know why you continue to insist we have to have your experience to have valid comments and that every thing most people say here is a waste of space because we don't.

The only time a guest player should be added is if the team becomes short handed from injury or a loss of a player to a family event.

Even then, the player should only be used when another original player isn't available.

As for Train, I enjoy him. I don't agree with naming names of players but he is a man and he only should have to answer to himself and God.

Man Law.

As for KG always running down other people's opinions, he to is entitled to his opinion even if he does come off as an a _ sh_ _ e many times.

I agree with Krace4, and I need a lot of grace just to get by everyday.

Lastly, I am real glad Cam wasn't kicked off any team and I hope somehow he recovers for his senior Spring season. My kid tells me Cam is a great guy to be around.

KG, some of the biggest idiots I have met are former pro sports players. In larger proportion than that of the rest of the population. They may have had that incredible athleticism, but they were a few bricks shy of a full load upstairs.

But following your theory, they must have been geniuses...

Yep, like Train, I guess I'm an idiot.

But that's ok. I'll hang in there, hoping to gather information and insite about all things concerning the great game from Texan.

His knowledge can only help someone like myself who only looks from the outside in.

Please, Texan, help me with my continuous quest to gain the knowledge of those who have directed their sons into the beautiful light of the "next level".

Please clue me in on issues such as....

-getting to the next level.
-summer baseball and what it portrays
-what is good for the game
-successful programs
-ect.

My experience is limited and am thirsty for info.



Please...........

Oh, forgot to mention. On the way out from the Ranger game last night, I happened to run into an old affiliate from the Texas organization. He is now doing work for Major League baseball.

When engaging in baseball talk, I was amazed on the topics he hinted on suggesting what's wrong out there today.

Boy did I feel stupid (idiot). I guess I really did have it wrong all along.


Funny thing was, he never mentioned much about the players.

Heck, KG, you know EVERYTHING.

There is nothing left for you to learn. No use anyone trying to teach.

BTW, I did not call you an idiot. Nor did I intend to do so. I said "some of".

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Heck, KG, you know EVERYTHING.

There is nothing left for you to learn. No use anyone trying to teach.

BTW, I did not call you an idiot. Nor did I intend to do so. I said "some of".

No, really, it's ok. I could still live with myself even if you did. I realize you view my opinions with respect.

And, I do learn something everyday. I learn no matter how hard one tries, you can't force someone to drink who ain't thirsty.

quote:

Originally posted by Krace4:
Ken,

I'll tell you what first hand, next level experience many of us have - we're parents of baseball players at many different levels and that's all the experience we need to be welcome here.

Absolutely correct.

But that doesn't validate thoughts or opinions.

Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
I realize you view my opinions with respect.

Actually, I do respect some - not all - of your opinions.

There are two kinds of folks who have "20 years of experience". Those with 20 years of experience, and those with one years experience 20 times over. Please note I am not referring to you, KG.

Your supposition that only those who have played on the MLB field know anything about baseball is simply wrong.

But then since you are the only one with baseball knowledge, I guess you won't acknowledge that.

Some of the most knowledgeable baseball people I have met never played an inning in the MLB. {And I have heard the same said by those who did play in the MLB.} They were great students of the game. Highly intelligent people. And mostly very humble.

I will stop my comments on this topic here. I am just fed up with your ego and your disdain for others on this board (and in general, it would seem).

Have a nice day.