Texas Tech football situation

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"I suggest holding off on accepting either side's story as gospel for a few weeks."

I agree with you Jimmy03. There are always at least two sides to every story.

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Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
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"I suggest holding off on accepting either side's story as gospel for a few weeks."

I agree with you Jimmy03. There are always at least two sides to every story.

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I agree with you GW4S, with "at least" being the key words.

This one's gonna be a prism!

Jimmy is correct, of course. There are two sides to every story. Now ESPN is reporting this reaction from a few TT players. Apparently, not everyone thinks Adam James is a deadbeat or a bad teammates as being portrayed by Leach and his staff.

"I have no complaints about this decision. [Leach] put Adam [James] in a shed like an animal. Like an animal in a cage. That was bull," defensive lineman Chris Perry. "You call other players. I think it was a good decision. We have our pep back now. We practice hard this week. We had less stress this week. You know why? Because he's gone."

Said cornerback Taylor Charbonnet: The players make this team, not one coach. As Adam's friend, I didn't like it at all what [Leach] did. He was my brother and I didn't agree with it. I don't know why [Leach] did that. But I know we our fully behind [interim] coach Ruffin [McNeil]. We love him and support him."

Threebagger - I think you hit the nail on the head. I've read the emails from former players & coaches, Texas newspaper articles, general posts and backround information on the situation. This is a pretty straight forward situation. The kid is a bad egg. If this was a Willy Wonka movie, he would be going down the chute.

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The "shed" was a large equipment garage with ice machinefan, and lights. The "closet" is a large conference room where visiting coaches are often interviewed. Craig James is a lying cheat who ruined one program and now just took down the only coach willing to give his spoiled brat son a chance in D1 football. Read the Emails from other players and coaches and you will see the James kid was one of the type you always have on almost any large roster you coach--a lazy know-it-all always last in everything due to lack of effort. Luckily he had daddy to enable and an AD that hates the coach. Maybe the AD didn't get enough of the credit for the turn around. When other players defend a "tough" coach against one of their own teammates it tells you all you want to know.

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Originally posted by Infield08:
Anyone remember the Vinny/Jimmy saga at the Univ. of Houston? In the end, father/son ended up looking WAY worse than Head BB Coach Raynor Noble. You have to wonder what the reputation of Craig James and his son Adam will look like when the dust settles.

Here's another interesting column:

http://www.sportingnews.com/co...get-revenge-on-leach

Vinny wasn't a visible ESPN correspondant. It will be interesting to see how ESPN covers this.

The problem with reading the emails and comments from the players and then trying to draw a conclusion on what actually happened is this. Some players are going to defend the player. Some are going to defend the coach. Why? It all depends on what your relationship with the coach and player was. It has no bearing on the situation imo. In every single program in American you would have the same thing happen in a situation like this. Some players will come out and defend the team mate. Some will come out and defend the coach.

Now what is important are the facts. And we dont have all of them right now. I think its very important to remember that the Coach is held to a higher standard than the players. When players step over the line they are disciplined and should be disciplined based on the nature of the offense. Benched , suspended , disciplined , etc etc. When a coach steps over the line he has to be held to a higher standard.

There is no doubt that Leach was in the AD's cross hairs. And it appears Leach gave the AD an opportunity to pull the trigger. And he did. When all the facts come out the situation will become more clear as to what actually happened. But if your going to base your opinion on who is right and who is wrong on the players reactions your going to get fooled many times.

Check this video out...it shows the two rooms in question. This is a matter of grown men not liking eachother...refusing to talk out a situation...and big egos getting in the way. Put another way, Leach found out there's a bigger bully on the block.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ure=player_embedded#

There is another aspect in the firing---if Leach is still under contract come 12/31/09 he supposedly gets another $ 800,000. Since he is fired there is no payout

Boy, you talk about spin Doctor! Leach's lawyer can sure enough spin can't he? LOL.

Calling that building a Garage? ha ha ha. Here in Georgia we called that thar thing a dadgum shed!

He kept saying that Adam had ice while in the, um, garage yet everytime it showed the ice machine the door was open and it appeared empty.

But I think the main thing that caused the investigators the biggest alarm was the running water! THAT would probably be considered torture.

But seriously, I can't help but think to myself one logical question. Where in the past 10yrs of Leach's coaching at TTU did he NORMALLY send players who had concussions?

YGD


Prior to this year nobody worried about concussions--now the spotlight is on them

I know what you're saying TR.

But I do believe over the past few years that when a player was diagnosed there was some way to treat the player, whatever it may entail. All teams had to have some sort of SOP on dealing with it. They didn't just start this year because they are now in the spotlight. Which I know isn't what you mean, I'm just saying.

Where does it say that he was send to the garage because of his concussion. This kid is dragging around the track just like he does everything else along with his classwork, so I don't see the big deal about getting him out of the "real" player's sight. He mouths back to the assistants during previous punishments, undermines the team by constantly moaning how he's mistreated. Guess he had to work for the first time in his life. The dad's constantly calling about playing time because he is after all the son of the great Craig James and shouldn't have to sit like "normal" people's kids. This is the very thing that many regulars on this site should never do. The coach should have cut him long ago: maybe that's what he should be fired for.

Oops-- I meant in my last post, second to last sentence that" this is the very thing many regualrs on this site said we should never do."

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Originally posted by Three Bagger:

The dad's constantly calling about playing time because he is after all the son of the great Craig James and shouldn't have to sit like "normal" people's kids.

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3Bagger....I don't recall reading or hearing this accusation. If you have it, can you post it here? I'd like to read it. Thanks.

p.s. You can always go back and "edit" your post...fyi.

When did it become the coaches job to determine what to do with players that were being treated for concussions? They have a medical staff don't they? Heck I played college football many moons ago. The medical staff decided what you did. If they cleared you to practice you practiced. If not they decided what your treatment was going to be. The mere fact that he "Coach Leach" was even part of what the player was or was not doing troubles me.

It seems logical that Coach Leach was ticked that the player was not participating in drills. He stepped in and provided the player with his own treatment for the concussion. Now who else is going to step up and complain about a concussion? Who else is going to skip practice for treatment? Who else is going to avoid going to the trainers out of fear of getting the Coaches treatment?

The culture of football is to suck it up. Your not injured your just hurt. Pain is just part of the game. If you cant play with pain you cant play. Those statements were prevelant in my day. Players were very reluctant to go to the trainers out of fear of being labeled as being soft - the P word was used on a frequent basis. And some were afraid to miss practice out of fear of losing their posistion or playing time.

You can not have an enviroment where players are afraid of coming forward about injuries. You can not have an enviroment where the saftey of the players is in jeopardy. Yes you want tough guys. Yes you dont want guys sitting out that dont need to be sitting out. But the coach has to stay out of these situations. There is no reason for Coach Leach to be a part of this situation. He messed up and it came back to bite him imo.

Ask yourself this question. Why is he even a part of what the player should be doing for the concussion? Seriously?

YGD

That accusation was made in the local Lubbock paper and Craig Mortensen on ESPN has alluded to it--true or not but who knows but the kids apparently has a rep for attitude and dogging it

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I won't go into details, but I have seen first hand how bad HS coaches can be. So I am not one of those who automatically assume the coach is always right.

I won' go into details, but I have seen first hand how bad HS Parents can be. So I am not one of those who automatically assume the parent is always right.

Here in lies the problem until coaches realize we don't know everything and until parents realize the program is more important than their child we will never get along.

Coach May, I think that was what I was really trying to allude to and just said Leach. I was really referring to his trainers, medical staff, etc. who have handled these concussion diagnoses in the past. I'm sure Leach left that up to them. So that does beg the question now as to why HE all of a sudden had a say in where Adam should go?

It's apparent by everything that is coming out that he had some kind of problem with the kid because of (name your poison) and unfortunately he picked the wrong kid to hash it out on.

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Originally posted by Coach_May:
Why is he (Leach) even a part of what the player should be doing for the concussion? Seriously?

Coach May, I have read several articles that state A James was cleared to practice by TT team physician AND A James' own doctor.

If a kid is dogging it then deal with him in an appropriate manner for dogging it. Sit him on the bench. Extra conditioning. Cut him. Etc etc.

Concussions have always been a source of ire for football coaches. Why? Because there is no way of knowing if the kid is hurt or not. A player can say "Coach I got a headache I think I might have a concussion." Now your going to discipline him? You think he is faking it so your peeved and your going to send him a message? Your going to send the rest of the team a message? Now what happens when a kid does have a concussion but he is afraid to say anything because he doesnt want to go to the shed?

Again why is he even a part of this? Its obvious why.

I dont care if the kid was dogging it. I dont care if he was a total pain in the butt. Deal with that in an appropriate manner. What Leach did was out of line and he got what he had coming to him.

If he was cleared to practice why was he in the shed? If he was cleared to practice and he refused to practice , cut him. Send him home. Why put him in a shed?

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I'm confused...could someone shed some light on this?




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Vicarious: I've not seen one story where James was cleared to practice. The concussion was why he wasn't practicing. You'd need to show me a link to make me think otherwise.

As for the folks making this a referendum on James instead of Leach, here's my question. If your son was diagnosed with a concussion by a member of the medical staff -- and even mild concussions can be very serious business -- and your son told you he was being punished for it by being forced to stand along in a garage/shed by hours by the head coach, would you be upset? I sure would. Coaches don't get to overrule doctors at the expense of a kid's health to make a point to the whole team. And when the parents and school officials called him on it, he still didn't have the good sense to back off. Sorry, he's the one responsible for his own firing, not the James family. Everybody has a boss, and through his own stubbornness, he found out today the football coach isn't bigger than the school itself.

Don't know how much credence to attach to these, but they do assert that James had been cleared to practice.

http://bleacherreport.com/arti...ike-leach-suspension

http://www.examiner.com/x-2873...e-in-electric-closet

From everything that's come out...here's the limb I'm going out on...

Seems no one can trace the origin of the mild concussion, and players use the complaint of mild concussion to get out of practice. Not saying he didn't have one, just saying...

He was reportedly walking around practice casually in sunglasses. I'd bet he was chatting up some of the players that the coach wished were paying more attention to their task at hand.

Coach already aggravated over the kid, banishes him from practice...sends him to the garage and to a media room. To make their story more dramatic, kid/parent refers to the rooms as "shed & electrical closet." This raises serious credibility questions about the kid.

It sure seems like a Diva vs. Old School battle royale with a mix of influential and over involved, high profile parent.

Leach got the kiss of death when Bobby Knight said he should get his big contract a couple of years ago. That's sort of like getting a foreign policy endorsement from Saddam.

Just a reminder to all of you who just don't know or may have forgotten just exactly who Craig James is. He knows the game and if he had an axe to grind he certainly is capable of grinding it deep. When I see him on his employer's (ESPN) big show (Sportscenter) doing an interview with his solemn voice and puppy dog eyes, I could just run for the toilet!

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Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:
I would like to add that no one should forget that self-righteous Craig James was a prominent part of one of the dirtiest athletic programs in college sports history at SMU in the early 80's, which led to the football program being the first recipient of the NCAA's newly enacted "death penalty" in 1986.

I sure miss the days when the coach was the king---again I say we have gotten too soft--the kid, if in fact this all happened, was not hurt---and what about his YOU TUBE Video-- this episode has also cost his dad a payday has he has been pulled from the bowl game staff

If I ever went to my Dad complaining about a coaches punishment, I never did, he would have simply told me I probably deserved it

I want to see what the final outcome is

It's not uncommon for injured players to attend practice, but injured players usually don't travel with the team. Craig James made sure his 'injured' son was cleared in time to go to the bowl game by sending him to his own doctor.

The coach and trainers know all about concussions. The kid was wearing sunglasses. Photosensitivity is a symptom of concussion. (I'm sure the kid knew this)

Here's why I don't have a problem with 'the shed' part. I used to get really bad headaches. Sunlight would worsen them tenfold. It's a very uncomfortable feeling. There were many, many days I'd have traded anything- maybe even my dog- for a few hours alone, in a dark room. If this 21 year old were truly suffering from being outside, in daylight, he would not have complained to his dad about the 'treatment' he received. He would have been grateful.

quote:

Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:

Just a reminder to all of you who just don't know or may have forgotten just exactly who Craig James is. He knows the game and if he had an axe to grind he certainly is capable of grinding it deep. When I see him on his employer's (ESPN) big show (Sportscenter) doing an interview with his solemn voice and puppy dog eyes, I could just run for the toilet!

quote:

Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:
I would like to add that no one should forget that self-righteous Craig James was a prominent part of one of the dirtiest athletic programs in college sports history at SMU in the early 80's, which led to the football program being the first recipient of the NCAA's newly enacted "death penalty" in 1986.

Getagoodpitch, I'm not a Craig James "fan" by no means just because I never thought he was that great a player in his days, IMHO. However, just because you say he was a "prominent part" of one of the dirtiest athletic programs in college sports history doesn't make it so. Yes, he was there but it was never proven that he was a participant. He wasn't even ever accused.

Go check out this bio on him on wikipedia and pay close attention to the last sentence in the first paragraph.

Craig James

Players are not held to the same standards as coaches. And they shouldnt be. There was an allegation and there was an investigation. During the investigation there "other things" that came to light. Coach Leach's response to his suspension was to take the school to court in order to coach in the bowl game. Blameing the player in this case simply does not wash for me. Even if the player was acting like a clown. Players act like clowns all the time and have to be disciplined. If coaches act like clowns they usually end up getting removed from their posistion.

Did TT use this incident to get rid of a coach they had grown tired of? Was this the only reason they fired Coach Leach?

As a coach you dont get involved in the treatment of players for injuries. That is up to the people that get paid to treat players.

It's so sad the way this thing has played out, I'll bet all sides would like to go back in time and do things differently. Both parties are to blame, IMO.

You got a player with a dad who can has the power to change things, dad should not comment on TV about what has happened), a high powered coach who wants to control things his way and probably walking a fine line in the first place, and possibly a kid who probably doesn't belong on the team to begin with. The player should have listened to his coach (but not placed in isolation but dealt with by the athletic training department), the coach to his employer, but ego got in the way for everyone. JMO.
The ones who suffer the most is the entire team, the fans and the school's athletic department.

Woody you are too funny.

TTU's Chancellor, Kent Hance, said there was only one person to blame for this firing, and that is Mike Leach.

This article might "shed" some light on how this all came down the pike Gotwood.

Fired for insubordination

Texas Tech - Employer
Mike Leach - Employee

Employer tells you to do something (stay away from the Bowl game)
Employee sues employer over an order. I would tend to lean toward a firing as well.
Obviously there were many other infractions that were contributing factors also.

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Originally posted by workinghard:
Texas Tech - Employer
Mike Leach - Employee

Employer tells you to do something (stay away from the Bowl game)
Employee sues employer over an order. I would tend to lean toward a firing as well.
Obviously there were many other infractions that were contributing factors also.

Are you implying if you had a job and your employer was doing something to you that you felt was unfair or unjust you would wouldn't fight it?

Not at all coach-
But as an employer, if I had an employee trying to sue me and it was within my right to fire him, I may exercise that right. Just as it is in his right to sue!

Having said that socalhscoach, "according to the article" there were other infractions Mr. Leach violated according to his contract. The first and foremost thing I can get fired for at my job is insubordination followed closely by attendance abuse.
The employer has the right to fire if the contract is broken, and the employee has the same rights afforded to him if he feels he was treated
unjustly and/or his contract was violated.

YGD,

I understand what you are saying, but let's not be naive.

The slush fund started in the 70's and continued even AFTER they were put on probation for allegations. They were on probation 7 times I believe, 5 in the previous 10 years alone, before finally getting the death penalty 3 years after James left.

The charges relating to the death penalty were only able to connect hard evidence with current players at the time. I think 13 players were proven. All the previous players who didn't have hard evidence against them denied everything. But it was also proven that the slush fund and payments to players with large signing bonus', monthly payments, paying of bills, cars, apartments had occurred. This was also admitted by people all the way to the top of the school's registration.

How else does a football program at a very small private school that has been a bottom feeder since the days of Doak Walker suddenly start playing with, and beating, the big-time national powers of the SWC. In fact going undefeated and nearly winning a national championship in 1982 with James and Dickerson.

It would seem to defy belief that James and Dickerson, 2 of the top recruits at the time, choose SMU and did not receive anything as the players around them had - cash, apartments, cars, etc. - in spite of their denials at the time.
It would seem to defy belief that James and Dickerson, the 2 stars of the team, were pillars of integrity with all this going on around them.

I remeber an interview with James at the time where he was asked about it, and he said rather smugly that it was a shame, but I don't want to comment on the situation.
I remember an interview with Dickerson at the time where he was asked about it, and he laughed very arrogently and said let's talk about Eric Dickerson and the Los Angeles Rams.

So yes, I am a believer in innocent until proven guilty.
But no, I am not stupid.

Man, I loved this movie!

Funny how certain words can trigger our memories!

Ole Forrest was a pretty good football player himself!

Life is like a box of chocolates......

This just in from FOX34 news!!! It's called A FEW STUPID MEN!!!

Leach: I run my team how I run my team. You want to investigate me, roll the dice and take your chances. I eat breakfast 100 hundred yards away from forty-thousand Longhorn fans who are trained to kill me. So don't think for one second that you can come in here, drop Craig James’ name and make me nervous.

Myers: Cap’n Mike, did you order the Code Shed?
Liggett: You don't have to answer that question!
Leach: I'll answer the question. You want answers?
Myers: I think I'm entitled.
Leach: You want answers?
Myers: I want the truth!

Leach: You can't handle the truth! Dude, we live in a world that has football players, and those players have to be coached. Who's gonna do it? You? You? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Adam James and you curse Cap’n Mike. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that James’ shedding, while tragic, probably wins me a game. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, wins games! You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at booster parties, you want me on that field! You need me on that field! We use words like Pirate, Booty, Sword. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent coaching football. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a dude who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the winning seasons that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "Thank you Cap’n Mike" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a clipboard, and call another pass play. Either way, I don't give a flip what you think you are entitled to!

Myers: Did you order the Code Shed?
Leach: I did my job, I’d do it again!!!
Myers: Did you order the Code Shed?
Leach: You're darn right I did!


That's just as good an explanation as the rest of the Media feed hogwash over this incident. We're really all just guessing anyway! The truth will come out and I'm willing to bet there is much, much more to this than any of us know.

Gotta love living in Lubbock! GED10DaD