The Arm by Jeff Passan

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Okay, let me be more clear:

1. There are no specific pre-high school showcases.

2. If the player profile lists ONLY pitching velo it is likely from a tourney, not a showcase

3. Some 8th graders and several 9th graders go to the Underclass Showcase, I don't think it is what PG had in mind when they say "Underclass", but they go.

August 2015 (Southeast Underclass Showcase), here are the graduating years and numbers of who attended:

2021 = 0, 2020 = 1, 2019 = 25, 2018 = 51, 2017 = >100

At that time a 2019 was a rising 9th grader.

In the December 2015 Underclass Showcase, per PG website, there were:

2021 = 1, 2020 = 2, 2019 = 86, 2018 = >100, 2017 = >100

At that time a 2019 was in the middle of 9th grade 

The two that went that I personally know received a PG score of a 7.5 and a 7.  They are both very talented players but being weighed against a 2016 they just couldn't compare and that is my point.  It isn't that PG advertised for them to go and showcase their pre-varsity skills their parents signed them up and I'm pretty sure they were disappointed with the results, but that isn't PG's fault.

Ok now I get it.  You really don't know other than two who have attended.

I don't think that I was the only one mislead.  Do these several 14u players from major teams attend other showcases?

I'm not sure what you are questioning.  I know two personally through my son that attended a PG showcase, they are both 9th graders, a.k.a. 2019's. 

Just looking at the numbers of the 2 underclass showcases I posted there were 111 players from the class of 2019 that attended a PG showcase prior to 9th grade Spring Baseball, and most were from GA and FL.

Again, I REALLY don't think that is what PG had in mind when they said Underclass Showcase, but if the parents want to pay hundreds to have their kids 75mph fastball and 7.8sec. 60 time recorded then they can pay to get that.  I don't think that's a reflection on anything PG is doing, it is a reflection on the parents who want to pay for a showcase WAY before their kid has $600 worth of something to show.

Roothog,

I should have looked as well, but I think that my confusion came from statements made that I highlighted above.  I do understand that they do not have showcases but cant stop anyone still not in HS from attending.

So I have a question, do they and others take velocity readings from those not yet in HS that attend tournaments?

TPM posted:

Roothog,

I should have looked as well, but I think that my confusion came from statements made that I highlighted above.  I do understand that they do not have showcases but cant stop anyone still not in HS from attending.

So I have a question, do they and others take velocity readings from those not yet in HS that attend tournaments?

 

In my son's experience, radar readings were recorded for every tournament he played during his 14U summer. That included a couple PG tourneys as well as 3 other organizations.  Now, those were all rising freshmen playing on full size fields - so it didn't seem to be unreasonable.  

TPM posted:

Roothog,

I should have looked as well, but I think that my confusion came from statements made that I highlighted above.  I do understand that they do not have showcases but cant stop anyone still not in HS from attending.

So I have a question, do they and others take velocity readings from those not yet in HS that attend tournaments?

 

Yes, the 9u event record from last year was 65mph.

My son's PG profile lists his speed from pitching in the 12u tourney, he did not pitch at Lakepoint, his speed was recorded when his team played at another park during that tourney. PG also did "Named to all tournament team" and segregated them for hitters and pitchers in 12u, and maybe other ages.

Edit: To Rob T's point, the 12u PG tourney was played on a 50x70 field and EVERY child had a blast!

Here's what I've seen at tournaments, TPM. At every gam, there will be a person at a table with a scorebook and there is a radar gun - usually held in place by a baseball box - set on transmit. They'll simply note velocities as they go. Of course, I imagine it's different at Lake Point where they have permanent equipment. Now, I never attended the younger tourneys, but that's what I've seen at HS tournaments.

Rob T posted:

TPM posted:

Roothog,

I should have looked as well, but I think that my confusion came from statements made that I highlighted above.  I do understand that they do not have showcases but cant stop anyone still not in HS from attending.

So I have a question, do they and others take velocity readings from those not yet in HS that attend tournaments?

 

In my son's experience, radar readings were recorded for every tournament he played during his 14U summer. That included a couple PG tourneys as well as 3 other organizations.  Now, those were all rising freshmen playing on full size fields - so it didn't seem to be unreasonable.  

Question:  Are the radar postings/displays mostly there because parents get so enamored with them and wanna pay for more?  Or is there a really good longterm reason to have them displayed and posted at 12, 13, 14?

I do know I saw kids throwing at high velocity for their age back in those younger days, but very few of them were still high velocity in HS and almost none played beyond HS.  So I'm not sure I would know how to extrapolate them to longterm results.  Maybe experts do?

Hey - I remember the first time someone put a radar gun on our older son - he was 12.  I didn't know they were doing it but was told later it was something like 72.  It sure got me fired up - wasn't sure what it meant, but I remember thinking it sure seemed like a very big number.  I woulda paid for more if I knew where to find it.  (I wouldn't now, but I sure woulda then).

justbaseball posted:

Rob T posted:

TPM posted:

Roothog,

I should have looked as well, but I think that my confusion came from statements made that I highlighted above.  I do understand that they do not have showcases but cant stop anyone still not in HS from attending.

So I have a question, do they and others take velocity readings from those not yet in HS that attend tournaments?

 

In my son's experience, radar readings were recorded for every tournament he played during his 14U summer. That included a couple PG tourneys as well as 3 other organizations.  Now, those were all rising freshmen playing on full size fields - so it didn't seem to be unreasonable.  

Question:  Are the radar postings/displays mostly there because parents get so enamored with them and wanna pay for more?  Or is there a really good longterm reason to have them displayed and posted at 12, 13, 14?

I do know I saw kids throwing at high velocity for their age back in those younger days, but very few of them were still high velocity in HS and almost none played beyond HS.  So I'm not sure I would know how to extrapolate them to longterm results.  Maybe experts do?

Hey - I remember the first time someone put a radar gun on our older son - he was 12.  I didn't know they were doing it but was told later it was something like 72.  It sure got me fired up - wasn't sure what it meant, but I remember thinking it sure seemed like a very big number.  I woulda paid for more if I knew where to find it.  (I wouldn't now, but I sure woulda then).

That is really the crux of the conversation, as well as the confusion.  Parents are wanting to pay to see more and go to more events where their kids times and velocities are recorded....BUT....while places like PG may offer the opportunity for parents to get more numbers they aren't promoting it as scouting or having any demonstrable outcome other than you wanted numbers, here they are. 

Long term these numbers will be used as data.  It's possible this data at a young age MIGHT tell something about pitcher health and it might lead to nothing other than parents and kids getting to see what they are throwing.  I don't know why there is an uproar about showing the velocities of kids, does there have to be a reason other than it's just for fun?

roothog66 posted:

Here's what I've seen at tournaments, TPM. At every gam, there will be a person at a table with a scorebook and there is a radar gun - usually held in place by a baseball box - set on transmit. They'll simply note velocities as they go. Of course, I imagine it's different at Lake Point where they have permanent equipment. Now, I never attended the younger tourneys, but that's what I've seen at HS tournaments.

I was specifically wondering about the younger tournaments and showcases.

I have no issue with rising freshman having velocity taken as it does help to get then acclimated and I agree there is no need to flash these numbers on a screen for below that age group.

The funny part is that I think that son was more then likely had many scouts guns on him over the HS period, but actually it really never was noticeable to until recruiting as well as before the draft, as I feel it should be.  Just too much emphasis these days on the whole velocity thing.  

JMO

CaCO3Girl posted:

That is really the crux of the conversation, as well as the confusion.  Parents are wanting to pay to see more and go to more events where their kids times and velocities are recorded....BUT....while places like PG may offer the opportunity for parents to get more numbers they aren't promoting it as scouting or having any demonstrable outcome other than you wanted numbers, here they are. 

Long term these numbers will be used as data.  It's possible this data at a young age MIGHT tell something about pitcher health and it might lead to nothing other than parents and kids getting to see what they are throwing.  I don't know why there is an uproar about showing the velocities of kids, does there have to be a reason other than it's just for fun?

To me, you kinda made my point - at first you said they are not being promised as scouting or having any demonstrable outcome...and then you said long term they will be used as data...about pitcher health, etc...

Isn't that an element of scouting and demonstrable outcome?

BTW, I'm not sure there's an uproar - there's just a book - and someone posted a link to it and so now people are commenting.  Agree, disagree...its just opinions.  To my knowledge, as with so many things there is no demonstrable proof either way.

There is no question that people can choose to spend their money how they want.  Heck, we spent a lot on son #1 and he probably didn't need it.  We spent very little on son #2 and as a 5-10, 85 mph RHP maybe he did need it?  Or maybe not?  Still, somehow it worked out quite well for both.  The good news is I learned how to navigate the scouting/recruiting system much more efficiently the second time around, in part from my own mistakes and then from reading the experiences of folks on here (including PGStaff!!).

This is not a question of NO showcases vs. ALL showcases - to me this is a question of when to begin?  How much to do of it?  And how to best 'showcase' the talent that your son has (which may mean no showcases at all - son #2, more or less)?  With son #2, we focused on a handful of target schools that were either a) in a smaller conference that needed to take some risk on a pitcher with command but less velocity or b) had some reason to take a longer look at him (e.g. old contacts who would at least look out of courtesy, rebuilding program, coaches we knew would take the time to evaluate).  I mean, why in the world would I take a 5-10, 85mph RHP to a big showcase...much less to one when he was 14 and throwing 75 (don't even know what it was)?  So they, without knowing much/anything about him could grade him as a 7? 

Makes no sense to me.

On these topics, this site is most useful when people read others stories or perspectives.  My view, and has been for at least 10 years....is to be patient.  To ensure your son has fun playing baseball, is in good hands coaching wise and doesn't feel like a failure if youth or HS baseball is all there is for him.  I actually have 2 sons who fit the latter category.  But they sure had fun and enjoy playing city softball, umpiring games and watching their brothers' games with us now.

TPM posted:

Roothog,

I should have looked as well, but I think that my confusion came from statements made that I highlighted above.  I do understand that they do not have showcases but cant stop anyone still not in HS from attending.

So I have a question, do they and others take velocity readings from those not yet in HS that attend tournaments?

 

My 2020 attended a 13U PG tourney last summer in Ft. Myers and now has a PG recorded velocity.  Everyone who pitched has one.

I have probably said too much already, but this is the only place I would do that.

Just to be clear, from day one PG was set up to recognize talented players and help the scouting community. To this day that has never changed.

There are 8 fields at LakePoint.  They are the only 8 fields we use that have TrackMan wired to the scoreboards.  The fields are built for college and HS games. Just in the Atlanta area alone we use over 50 other fields that do not display radar readings.  However, most everyone wants to play on the turf fields with better and safer lighting and digital scoreboards.

Guess it amazes me why we are the main topic. We all know about a 12 year old tournament that shows radar readings on National television.  It is one of the biggest and most watched events in all of amateur baseball every year and I enjoy it.  I never really looked at it as anything sinister.  Just a bunch of kids having fun and creating life long memories.  

So do all these things add to having a fun experience for kids and parents or are they ruining arms at an increased rate?   

Once again, many of those with all the answers NEVER pitched in a real game.  Ask any pitcher or even player alive if he has ever thrown a ball as hard as he possibly could and you will get the same answer 100%.  Professional and college baseball is full of them. It just becomes a bigger risk for those that actually can throw it harder than most.  Then it becomes a much bigger risk when that higher velocity is used incorrectly.

And the main reason we see so much arm abuse, think about it, at every level... It is this desire for winning a damn baseball game.  It is well documented what length some people will go to win a baseball game.  I've seen intelligent people become complete fools in the late innings of a close game.

People that post here tend to be more educated about baseball than most. Nobody wants injuries.

Justbaseball, we are on two different wavelengths.  When I say " not being promised as scouting or having any demonstrable outcome" I mean to the actual player.  When a 16u kid throws in a PG tourney there are expectations that maybe just maybe someone important will see him and offer him a visit to their school, or maybe a better baseball program.  There is no such expectation for the 9u kid they are there to play on awesome fields where the big boys play and they get to see the speed they are throwing, it's a cool factor not a "could this be my next step in my recruitment process" factor.

When I say "long term they will be used as data...about pitcher health, etc..." I'm talking about Perfect Game having data on a wide pool of youngsters and maybe someone can crunch those numbers one day and make some health recommendations based on what happened to that group of kids at 9u, at 12u, at 16u, did any have TJ surgery at 16u, if so, what had that kid been throwing at 9/10/11/12 compared to other kids?  Were there any warning signs others could look for? Was there a trend? That right there is raw data from a population and might yield some trend or results that previously couldn't be tracked when the group didn't get radared until 14/15u.

There is this misconception in this thread and in that article that everything done by youth players is in an attempt to get to that next level, and somehow PG is perpetrating a scam on the baseball youth when it couldn't be further from the truth.  If PG advertised to bring your 9u team to be seen by the best scouts in the south then I'd have an issue, but all they have done is open up their wonderful facility to little kids. If you are ever at Lakepoint during a pre-high school youth tourney you will see children having fun playing baseball, not looking for radar guns/scouts/college coaches...they are running and sliding on the turf to see how far they can slide on that stuff.  They are staring at the lights trying to figure out why and how they look so different.  They are laughing and goofing around and trying to figure out how to make the new ball not so shiny since there is no dirt to dim the polish off and it keeps slipping, and yeah they are looking at their velocities which most have never seen and hoping they get to come back and do it again next year.  Sometimes it isn't about recruiting, it's just about fun!

Not sure where anyone but you Brittany mentioned scam and PG in the same sentence.  And how do you know this will be used for helpful  medical data later on. What it is used for, I am assuming, is that this data will be used to identify talent early as to keep those in the game. That was what was stated by PG. Correct? I am not getting where you are getting your info from?  

Not sure that opening up their facility has anything to do with the discussion either. We all know its top notch.  

You were the one who posted all this info about young pitchers doing showcases! In other words, you have added to the confusion.

Why is it so important to show on a scoreboard?  At college games, the pitchers chart with the gun for the player and coaches info, the scouts in attendance do their own, there is no velocity reading unless you play in a milb stadium.

PG has explained why his company has the velo showing, that's fair, but personally many here don't feel its necessary for young pitchers. I do believe that is part of the conversation.

I haven't read the book so I can't form any opinions.

TPM posted:

Not sure where anyone but you Brittany mentioned scam and PG in the same sentence.  And how do you know this will be used for helpful  medical data later on. What it is used for, I am assuming, is that this data will be used to identify talent early as to keep those in the game. That was what was stated by PG. Correct? I am not getting where you are getting your info from?  

Not sure that opening up their facility has anything to do with the discussion either. We all know its top notch.  

You were the one who posted all this info about young pitchers doing showcases! In other words, you have added to the confusion.

Why is it so important to show on a scoreboard?  At college games, the pitchers chart with the gun for the player and coaches info, the scouts in attendance do their own, there is no velocity reading unless you play in a milb stadium.

PG has explained why his company has the velo showing, that's fair, but personally many here don't feel its necessary for young pitchers. I do believe that is part of the conversation.

I haven't read the book so I can't form any opinions.

TPM, WOW, way to pick out every third word.  Did you see where I said MAYBE someone could crunch the numbers and find something medical, or how the concept of a scam COULDN'T be further from the truth? 

It's like you didn't even read the second article that was posted as an excerpt of the book which talked specifically about PG.  I won't quote from it because I think it's a bunch of garbage but that is where the talk about PG, what age they hold showcases for, and the concept of PG and scam came from...although I will agree they didn't use the word scam, I just didn't want to use the words they did, because again, it's pile of crud. Free will is free will.

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM, WOW, way to pick out every third word.  Did you see where I said MAYBE someone could crunch the numbers and find something medical, or how the concept of a scam COULDN'T be further from the truth? 

It's like you didn't even read the second article that was posted as an excerpt of the book which talked specifically about PG.  I won't quote from it because I think it's a bunch of garbage but that is where the talk about PG, what age they hold showcases for, and the concept of PG and scam came from...although I will agree they didn't use the word scam, I just didn't want to use the words they did, because again, it's pile of crud. Free will is free will.

As I said I have not read the book to draw any conclusion.  

Just to be clear, LakePoint was developed for players, scouts, and college recruiters.  It was not built for younger kids.  Youth fields will go in later.  That said, scouts and recruiters benefit greatly by seeing a accurate velocity on the scoreboards.  It allows then to move around to other positions to watch hitters and pitchers from the side while still seeing velocity. The turf pretty much guarantees that the games will actually take place.  That is also very important to players, scouts and recruiters that have to travel long distances.

Does showing velocity benefit 12 year olds.  No, not in any way that I know of at this time.  I only know that enough data can be beneficial in some way in just about everything.  The real question is does that information hurt them.  When someone can actually prove that it does, we will be the first to eliminate it.

Regarding arm injuries we are using other technology that may or may not help, time will tell.  We continue to spend trying to stay ahead of others when it comes to that.  Nobody cares more than we do.

Here is the problem... Since 2008 the MLB draft (all players drafted) Over 80% have attended a PG event in the past.  So every time a Major League pitcher or prospect has TJ surgery there is a very good chance (80%)) they had attended a PG event in the past.  Nothing is ever mentioned about the many that attended PG events that have not had TJ surgery.  Why?  Doesn't anyone want to know what Zack Greinke, Clayton Kershaw, Madison Bumgarner, Sonny Gray, Gerrit Cole and hundreds of other healthy pitchers did when they were younger?  

All the research I have seen is about those that needed TJ surgery.  Wouldn't it make sense to research those that didn't?  Maybe we might discover something very important, rather than come to conclusions based on incomplete information.

As I said, I really do care!  When an article came out a couple years ago titled "The TJ Epidemic" and it mentioned PG, I got pissed.  So I secured the list of every professional pitcher that had TJ surgery performed on them since 2008.  Then I searched every name on that list against our data base to see how many had attended PG events. Remember that in that time former PG attendees represented more than 80% of all players drafted and well over 90% of the first round.  So I was expecting to see somewhere around 80% of the TJ surgeries, which seemed logical.  I was really hoping it wasn't something like 90% or more, which would have told me we might be a problem.  The result showed a little over 60% had been to a PG event of any kind, including some that only pitched an inning or two. I was very surprised and still have no idea what it all means.  I surely wouldn't go out and claim we are safer than the rest of baseball.  But that is exactly what the numbers were showing.  Maybe it was just luck!  Maybe the research I did was incomplete.  Who knows?  Maybe it is because we actually try to protect pitchers. One thing for sure, we always have used radar guns and recorded velocity.

BTW, the high level Travel Teams tend to have a lot of pitching.  They understand they are dealing with outstanding prospects that have a future.  So once again, they are not the major problem at all.  They also seem to produce the most early round picks and DI recruits.  I could give many examples, but take the Canes, East Cobb, Scorpions, Dbat, Elite, FTB, Midland, NorCal, scout teams, or many others.  We see them a lot, yet have not once seen them overdo the workload of a single pitcher. Still they win most all the time.  It is because they understand and prepare.

Sorry, I know I'm saying way too much.  It's because I love baseball and I hate business.  More than anything when it comes to baseball I care about my reputation, just like many others.  I never lie when it comes to baseball.  Wrong many times, never wrong on purpose.  See you can't survive a lie.  You can always remember and repeat the truth, so when someone asks you what you said a year ago, a lie is hard to remember.  The truth doesn't require memory.  But sometimes people don't like the truth because it gets in their way.

People have always been and will always be fascinated by measurables. My 14U, as well as his teammates, literally just had his outfield velo recorded at yesterday's practice. His organization is really proactive in the recruiting process once they get to high school. They will also have hitting and fielding videos, 60 times and actual game footage videos attached to their profiles.  

Athletes are typically competitive and are interested in their velo, 60 time, 40 time, bench press, vertical jump or whatever...but I still think that the overzealous parent is the biggest issue in youth sports. My son has been invited to some "all star" games that anyone with $500 dollars could attend. I know some really intense parents who have paraded they pre-high schooler all over believing they are gaining a recruiting advantage.  If it's one thing I've learned...that's to enjoy the precious moments that we have with them now and all that stuff will take care of itself.  

Lastly @TPM, maybe it's an SEC thing but know of at least a couple schools that post velos after every pitch.   

CaCO3Girl posted:

playball2011 posted:

I've been to college games that don't show pitch velocities out to public, why is it important for young pitchers? Or for parents to know? Scouts/coaches can find out in other ways.

Heck Spring Training games I attended few weeks back didn't show it anywhere. Scouts were in stands w gun and used hand signals to relay info to others on/near field. 

Important, nope.  Scouts there looking at 9u kids, nope. Just freaking cool to see, yup!

Son's youth travel team went to a nearby D1 school last with a cool video scoreboard for a league game last fall. During the game, they showed their football team's game out of town, plus pitch speeds, on the board. After the game, we scolded son for turning around to check out his speed after almost every pitch. "They had the speed up there?" he asked. "I just wanted to see the score of the game!"

I'm guessing that there has never been a UCL torn as a result of a radar gun display.  Please provide a link if you know of one.

SultanofSwat posted:

I'm guessing that there has never been a UCL torn as a result of a radar gun display.  Please provide a link if you know of one.

I don't think that's the point.

Soooo....60 times should not be displayed because fast kids will pull hamstrings and slow kids will get their feelings hurt...huh!

Back to the original topic. As author interviews go, this one is pretty well researched by NPR's Dave Davies. Covers a lot of interesting topics.

Injuries Increase As Pitchers Throw Harder, Faster And Younger
March 31, 2016 • In The Arm, baseball columnist Jeff Passan explains how competitive pressure on young players is making them more vulnerable.

http://www.npr.org/player/embed/472541597/472559618

I think PG should make as much money as they can offering folks many ways to spend their cash, I also believe if parents have a little common sense they can safely and affordably navigate a path through the many options that are now available in the baseball world.

The answer maybe in "total education" of the parent, players, agents, coaches & showcase promoters. This is part of my 6th Tool Program.

During our Area Code Games, I created the dinner clinic with MLB former players and Scouting Directors and the evening seminar for all parents and players [no charge]. Today, I would add Dr Andrews to the program.

Bob

TWConsultant posted:

The answer maybe in "total education" of the parent, players, agents, coaches & showcase promoters. This is part of my 6th Tool Program.

During our Area Code Games, I created the dinner clinic with MLB former players and Scouting Directors and the evening seminar for all parents and players [no charge]. Today, I would add Dr Andrews to the program.

Bob

The sad thing is that you would have parents attend the meetings and still wouldn't listen. Dr. Andrew's recommended guidelines are readily available for those who want it.  

 

Consultant posted:

The answer maybe in "total education" of the parent, players, agents, coaches & showcase promoters. This is part of my 6th Tool Program.

During our Area Code Games, I created the dinner clinic with MLB former players and Scouting Directors and the evening seminar for all parents and players [no charge]. Today, I would add Dr Andrews to the program.

Bob

 

As a parent, I felt (and still do) that the evening seminar was the high-lite of the AC Games.  

Truman, yes it was fun and challenging. The Professional giving their time "teaching the game".

One year we receive a request from an agent to have his client speak. The real life "The Rookie"  - Jim Morris.

Jim waived "speakers fee". Jim spoke and the crowd was amazed. Players giving back!

Bob

Have not read the excerpt (or the book) yet so will not comment on that, but do want to add my 2 cents about some of the other nuggets in this discussion.

First, the display of the velocity only reinforces that velocity is king!  Effectiveness is secondary. Sadly, the velo is what almost everyone cares about, no matter how many kinds of pitches you can throw for strikes, no matter the outcome of a game, as long as you can hit a certain number.  We have seen this over and over again, playing with one of the top national travel organizations and watching the kids who frequently cannot get out of an inning accept D1 offers because they hit the magic number.  There is a difference to me between people holding a radar gun privately and a scoreboard showing of the velocity so everyone, including the pitcher who obviously wants the number to be as high as possible.

Second, yes there are recommended pitch counts and rest days and much TALK about arm care.  Yet, in reality, many do not follow these guidelines. We saw USA Baseball, at their own NTIS event, blatantly disregard the "pitch smart guidelines" they were advertising.  Not to point fingers at just them as I believe it is widespread.  Our Varsity team has played 5 games in 4 days.  Several pitchers (from both our team and the opponents) have exceeded 90 pitches this week -- in NON LEAGUE games with no scouts, no bearing on their baseball careers, just a lot of games to play this week.  It is right there on Game Changer to see the pitch counts.  There is no competitor in the world who wants to say, take me out of the game I think my pitch count may be high. If they are feeling good, they want to stay in the game.  It is tough for these "almost" men to "wimp" out. I've also seen kids throw on not enough rest.  One thing about Little League, is there were rules not guidelines.  It all bothers me, and I do not see any way out of it except for specific RULES about rest and pitch counts.

Finally, on TJ issues.  I have done a lot of reading and research on this lately.  It is an epidemic, no matter what the percentages are for PG less than the overall population, etc., or anyone.  There are TOO MANY surgeries now.  Some are even opting for it without a tear.  Given we all love baseball, can't we all see that this ever increasing number of TJ operations is not a good story, even when a pitcher comes back (after a year!)?   

Again, just my thoughts as I happen to have lots of them on these subjects.

Nice post.

TWOBOYS,

You make some good points.  No question everyone is aware of the importance of velocity.  If I see a scoreboard that displays velocity, the most dangerous thing on that scoreboard is the SCORE.  Fatigue and poor decisions cause more injuries than anything else.  If anything the velocity displayed on a scoreboard should make coaches, parents and everyone aware of big velocity drops (one sign of fatigue).  I can't tell you how many times I've scouted games and known when a pitcher was losing a lot of velocity.  Yet that pitcher was still getting outs without actually dominating any longer.  He's in the danger zone.  At that point it's not about velocity it is all about WINNING a damn game.  Everyone loves winning, but sometimes it can cause brain cramps.

WINNING at every level is the biggest reason for abuse.  No scout needs to see a pitcher throw 150 pitches in a game in order to evaluate.  Lack of recovery time is another abusive problem.  It happens a lot, especially in the younger age groups.  Why does it happen other than in the interest of winning?

Check out Madison Bumgarner and how he was used during the 2014 season and  World Series. I understand that is the biggest of all championships.  But there was only one reason he was used that much. The Giants had other pitchers, so we all know the decision was totally based on winning.  Well to some winning that local 13 year old tournament is just as important.  Guess I can understand that everyone thinks differently about those type things.  But with younger kids we need to be more careful and think of their future.

One other thing... I personally have never known a pitcher who has had TJ surgery without at least a partial tear.  In fact, I would be interested in knowing who the surgeon was that did that.  Thing is there are many these days that elect surgery over other types of rehab. I don't know of a single case of TJ surgery for absolutely no reason.  That would be very stupid!

BTW, has anyone ever seen what the actual number of TJ surgeries are.  Reason I ask is there are lists available of those in Professional Baseball who have had TJ surgery.  I've read numbers like more than 50% of all TJ Surgeries are on kids 15-19.  Without knowing I would bet the number is much higher at ages  18-19 than 15-16.  Of course the fact that a low percentage actually get to professional baseball so it seems like 50% is kind of a low number. Wouldn't that mean much more than 50% are on college and professional pitchers?  (18 and above)  

One more thing... TJ surgeries have actually dropped at the professional level since 2012.  No one in their right mind thinks TJ surgery is anything but a serious situation.  At the same time it is a wonderful medical advancement.  Anytime an advancement happens and proves to have a high rate of success, the more popular that option becomes.  Be it transplants, knee or hip replacements or laser surgery... They all are performed at record breaking numbers.  I just never hear the word epidemic used for things like hip replacement surgery.

The best part of all the attention given to TJ surgery is it might actually educate many people.  That is what PitchSmart will do.  Most important are parents.  There needs to be an uproar every time a pitcher is being overworked.  I have no idea how much it will do to help lower the TJ numbers, I just know it's the right thing to do.  But whether it is hip, knee, or UCL surgery, they are here to stay until something better is discovered.

Leaving aside the book's discussion on PG, it looks like some respected people are saying positive things about The Arm.

https://twitter.com/jaegerspor...s/716080963323703296

https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/...s/714813544982773760

Solid post TWOBOYS.  I had some of the same thoughts watching USA Baseball NTIS last year (I live about 15 minutes from the complex).

I think a bigger problem than the gun is the training for the gun.  Some arm conditioning and, a little bit of long toss is good but some are really pushing their kids hard to improve velocity at age  12-14.

I think even kyle said that he usually doesn't start velo training before they are in HS.

Another 'sky is falling' thread. sigh

We have absolutely no idea what causes UCLs to tear/break.  Wake me up when we find out.

The Doctor posted:

Soooo....60 times should not be displayed because fast kids will pull hamstrings and slow kids will get their feelings hurt...huh!

Yes exactly!  I definitely don't want my son's 60 posted anywhere!  Lol.

SultanofSwat posted:

Another 'sky is falling' thread. sigh

We have absolutely no idea what causes UCLs to tear/break.  Wake me up when we find out.

THIS JUST IN!  Pitching is the major cause of UCL tear.

C'mon guys. It's an interesting topic. I don't really see the need for the sarcasm. 

I have a a son who has had TJ surgery just after he reached the big leagues and looked like he might stick. I don't blame anyone (except maybe myself - he did play nearly year round baseball beginning in about 10th grade) one single bit but I think it's interesting to ponder the possibilities. 

I do think the scoreboard comes into play as PG says - but I also think the scheduling of big events year round and the emphasis on velocity are relevant too. I still remember after our son was drafted in HS that the scouts told him if he would hit a certain velo number at a certain event they'd give him the money he was asking for.  And he sure started progressing up the minor league ladder when his velo reached a certain level steadily a few years later despite tremendous success with lower velo numbers up until then.  And no, I don't even blame them either, nor does he .

It just is what it is and discussions like this should be helpful for those wishing to learn from others experiences.  Sarcasm just minimizes good discussion IMO. 

justbaseball posted:

C'mon guys. It's an interesting topic. I don't really see the need for the sarcasm. 

I have a a son who has had TJ surgery just after he reached the big leagues and looked like he might stick. I don't blame anyone (except maybe myself - he did play nearly year round baseball beginning in about 10th grade) one single bit but I think it's interesting to ponder the possibilities. 

I do think the scoreboard comes into play as PG says - but I also think the scheduling of big events year round and the emphasis on velocity are relevant too. I still remember after our son was drafted in HS that the scouts told him if he would hit a certain velo number at a certain event they'd give him the money he was asking for.  And he sure started progressing up the minor league ladder when his velo reached a certain level steadily a few years later despite tremendous success with lower velo numbers up until then.  And no, I don't even blame them either, nor does he .

It just is what it is and discussions like this should be helpful for those wishing to learn from others experiences.  Sarcasm just minimizes good discussion IMO. 

Justbaseball I agree.  Perhaps I spend too much time reading the board, the discussion on UCL just seems circular.  I do need to listen to others experiences.  I do the best to protect my sons arm.  I lot of what I know comes from reading this board and the more experienced posters.

All good Go44Dad!!

I guess the one thing I would hope is that everyone....from youth baseball leagues to MLB, from HS & college coaches to summer travel coaches, from tournament and showcase operators....to most importantly parents - will take a deep breath and think about it and make adjustments where it seems prudent.

I can tell you as a parent myself, if I could do it all over again I woulda stepped in more often to not allow pitching in a national tournament championship game on relatively short rest or allowing a pitch count to get too high.  When he woulda said, "My arm feels great!  I can go 3 or 4 today" - I shoulda said, "Nope, you're done for the week."

And I woulda not encouraged our son to throw harder when a scout or 'advisor' thought it would help his draft position or college recruiting - instead I would emphasize to just be better with command.  It woulda all worked out fine without so much emphasis on these things.

We got a lot of that by the time our younger son was in HS, but still there's no guarantee he won't have the pressure either.  In some ways, being 5-10 and barely touching 90 in the pro game now, there is even more pressure on him to amp it up just to survive.

I personally won't be a part of encouraging that though.

I just finished the book. A few observations:

(1) Wow, the section on Kyle is great. Really good stuff. Congrats, Kyle.

(2) It seems crazy to me for a writer to blame a $15 million business (PG) for the arm problems plaguing MLB (a nearly $10 billion business) and baseball in general.

(3) The desire for velocity seems to play a big role. The average MLB fastball was 89.6 mph in 2002 and rose to 92.1 in 2015 (per Fangraphs data). That is a gigantic increase. Similar or even greater increases could be seen at other levels, even down to high school (PGStaff talks about how many more 90 mph high school pitchers there are now). The increase in velocity -- throwing harder -- seems to me to be the biggest contributor to arm problems, and correlates very well with the increase in TJ surgeries. And the game wants that increased velo, at every level. The game searches for it, recruits for it, it drafts for it, promotes it. To paraphrase Colonel Jessup: 

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want that velo, you need that velo. We use words like four-seamer, two-seamer, cutter. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent preventing runs. You use them as a risk factor. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very run prevention that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way,

(4) The answers aren't so easy. I mean it seems easy. Like:

• >100 innings per year = 3.5x more likely to be seriously injured
  • Oh, OK, that's easy, pitch fewer than 100 innings per year
• >80 pitches per game average = 3.8x more likely to need surgery
  • Another easy one, just average fewer than 80 pitches per game
• >8 months per year of pitching competitively = 5x more likely to need surgery
  • Piece of cake, simply pitch for 8 or fewer months per year
• Here's one not often discussed: pitchers are more than 100x more likely to need elbow reconstruction than position players. If the goal is to minimize the risk of elbow damage, the best risk reduction strategy, by far, not even close, would be to be a position player, rather than a pitcher.
  • Uh . . .umm . . . er . . .