CaCO3Girl posted:

joemktg posted:

FWIW: I'd contend that USSSA, Triple Crown, and other event organizers provide far more platforms for arm abuse than anything PG could ever do. They run 4-6 game tournaments over a 2-3 day period for teams where everyone pitches then plays the field.

Start there first.

USSSA and Triple Crown both have pitching guidelines, they aren't perfect but none of them could be.  What's your glitch with having a kid pitch a couple of innings and then playing in the field?

They may have changed(?), but back when we were doing these tournaments the pitching guidelines were woefully inadequate.  As a parent, it took a lot of effort on our part to impose our own guidelines well above and beyond what were allowed by the tournaments themselves.

You went from joe's comment about pitching in the context of very loose tournament guidelines to 'pitch a couple of innings.'  Not the same thing.  If a kid throws a lot of pitches in a game, his arm needs a rest.  DH is the best spot in the next game or two (or three).

CaCO3Girl posted:

4. If people want to pay to have their 8th grader do a showcase then again, more power to them.  Several "Major" teams have 14u kids that have already done showcases and while they are outstanding players for 14u then mostly walked away with scores of 7's...why...because they are being compared to full grown 17/18u kids!  If you want it on record your 14u kid can throw 75mph, congrats, you can make that happen for $600, but don't blame PG for scamming people, it's called Free Will!

I have to ask, who exactly are any kids under age 16 showcasing TO? It's ludicrous to think or even believe there is any one that is going to take a young teenager not even old enough for a Varsity team serious. To me this is where the problem lies the most and that is overzealous parents who feel little Johnny needs to be seen RIGHT NOW at age 13 or 14. All this "jockeying" for exposure in order to "get ahead" or get promoted is by FAR the worse rabbit hole anyone can be sucked down. I know, cause I lived it with my son and his teammates years ago at that age. It's like a nightmare that you are in and you cannot seem to find a way of escape. Players up to age 15 should only be playing (besides their Middle school or Jr. Varsity school teams) are on some good travel teams during the summer for good competition and fun. 

As you stated, if some parents feel that they're going to do this regardless then it's their choice....their free will. I'm not saying you do this so that's not my inference here. 

IMO, Passan seems to have an ax to grind against PG and for (fill in the blank) reason he has to blame PG for this is laughable and he should consider stepping away from his reporting. All this does is speak to his inability and/or poor excuse to produce a story that he knows will garner attention which only brings the limelight to him. I'm afraid in this case he has tarnished his reputation mightily and will not be taken seriously going forward.

That's my 2 cents.

YGD

CaCO3Girl posted:

joemktg posted:

FWIW: I'd contend that USSSA, Triple Crown, and other event organizers provide far more platforms for arm abuse than anything PG could ever do. They run 4-6 game tournaments over a 2-3 day period for teams where everyone pitches then plays the field.

Start there first.

USSSA and Triple Crown both have pitching guidelines, they aren't perfect but none of them could be.  What's your glitch with having a kid pitch a couple of innings and then playing in the field?

Pls define glitch.

joemktg posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

joemktg posted:

FWIW: I'd contend that USSSA, Triple Crown, and other event organizers provide far more platforms for arm abuse than anything PG could ever do. They run 4-6 game tournaments over a 2-3 day period for teams where everyone pitches then plays the field.

Start there first.

USSSA and Triple Crown both have pitching guidelines, they aren't perfect but none of them could be.  What's your glitch with having a kid pitch a couple of innings and then playing in the field?

Pls define glitch.

You posted "They run 4-6 game tournaments over a 2-3 day period for teams where everyone pitches then plays the field." like that was a bad thing.  Why do you feel that is a bad thing?

justbaseball posted:

JohnF posted:

...as neither parent or coach "wants" more restrictions. 

...but what happens by the time they're 17-18 and realize that the school may not have a major they're interested? If the only way they get in is because of baseball and then they find out it's a lot more difficult, they have to go to study halls, and their social life is playing baseball...

John - I'm having a hard time logically joining those two comments in your post?

Isn't the 2nd comment exactly why parents might (or should?) want more restrictions?

Isn't that just the point?  If you've been through it, you know the flaws and perhaps want to see better restrictions, but if you haven't you want to know you're (or your child is) wanted and those contacts validate your desire to be wanted.  It's really a dilemma. It's the 20/20 hindsight logic or the "if I knew then what I know now, I would do X differently".  Those that want the restrictions could have ulterior motives too ;-)  If you know you're in, why not make it harder for the next group to get in so that it gives your child more of a chance (not you specifically, but the colloquial "you").

As the rest of your post proves to me at least - coaches know players/parents "want" to be somewhere.  They write offers that expire and play on the fear of not getting anything. You had trepidations because you knew your child, but not everyone does. Each of mine were different and we really tried to focus them towards the academic (;-)) side of things...

YoungGunDad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

4. If people want to pay to have their 8th grader do a showcase then again, more power to them.  Several "Major" teams have 14u kids that have already done showcases and while they are outstanding players for 14u then mostly walked away with scores of 7's...why...because they are being compared to full grown 17/18u kids!  If you want it on record your 14u kid can throw 75mph, congrats, you can make that happen for $600, but don't blame PG for scamming people, it's called Free Will!

I have to ask, who exactly are any kids under age 16 showcasing TO? It's ludicrous to think or even believe there is any one that is going to take a young teenager not even old enough for a Varsity team serious.

Only two or three years ago, I would have thought this was a relevant question. Today, the answer would clearly be Louisville, USC, Vanderbilt, UCLA, Arizona State...

CaCO3Girl posted:

joemktg posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

joemktg posted:

FWIW: I'd contend that USSSA, Triple Crown, and other event organizers provide far more platforms for arm abuse than anything PG could ever do. They run 4-6 game tournaments over a 2-3 day period for teams where everyone pitches then plays the field.

Start there first.

USSSA and Triple Crown both have pitching guidelines, they aren't perfect but none of them could be.  What's your glitch with having a kid pitch a couple of innings and then playing in the field?

Pls define glitch.

You posted "They run 4-6 game tournaments over a 2-3 day period for teams where everyone pitches then plays the field." like that was a bad thing.  Why do you feel that is a bad thing?

Besides the overflowing porta-potties?

There's really nothing wrong with 4-5 games over a 2 day period: it's the norm at the 15U+ level. What I do caution against is the overuse of these young arms when it comes to pitching then playing in the field, or too many pitches over numerous days. As an example: with the Canes, if a pitcher pitched in a game, he was done for the weekend. If a position player was going to pitch at some point, the staff made sure there was sufficient rest between the position player's last game and the game where he was pitching...and then he was done (except to DH if warranted).

If the Canes are managing their players in that fashion, I'd consider that Best Practices. And if that is Best Practices, shouldn't that be considered as the MO for your team?

roothog66 posted:

Only two or three years ago, I would have thought this was a relevant question. Today, the answer would clearly be Louisville, USC, Vanderbilt, UCLA, Arizona State...

roothog - Sometimes on message boards or in cyberspace discussions I think its awfully easy to dig your (my) heels in and think the old way is the only way.

I just wanted to pay you a compliment in that posts like this, of which you've made many about the new landscape, do educate not only people in your son's age group - but old codgers like me about what has changed.

At times I will debate you - because I still believe a level of patience in many situations is better than a sprint.  But I do respect what you have brought to the table and I've become a fan of your posts and point of view. 

Some might not believe this, but I think the way this early recruiting is going is not a good thing.  Many colleges hate it, yet they have to do it.  It's really not that beneficial to the players and sometimes very detrimental to the players. I wish it was like it was 10 years ago.

That said, it isn't like it was 10 years ago.  It has turned into the early bird gets the worm.  And it is odd how many of those worms/players all want to go to the same birds/college programs.  So I'm some ways it creates more separation between the top and the bottom.

However, some might argue it has started to benefit some of the colder climate colleges.  They have caught on and are getting the best kids possible from their own areas committed early.  In the past these would be kids that often would end up elsewhere.

Until something happens to change things,  colleges will adjust to whatever works best for them.  The bigger problem involves the players that find out the college has changed their mind and no longer wants them.  Especially those that find that out late and haven't planned for it.

In the meantime, it is what it is.  I think it is vitally important for people to completely understand what it is.  Not whether it is good or bad, but depending on the individual situation it could be good or it could be bad. I do think in most cases it works out, but I know of some cases where it has turned out down right ugly.  Not sure who you blame, other than the system.

Before anyone says it, I know Perfect Game played a large part in all of this.  When we first started doing events for underclassmen there were very few colleges showing up.  Now some of those same events will have over 100 college recruiters and we know even more are following the information we provide.  If that book would have stated that, we would have no response.

So why don't we quit doing these events if we don't like the system.  Reason is, it is too late.  Someone else would simply take our place as many already are doing underclass events.  So we are going to keep trying to get the best possible players and keep trying to help the recruiters. Now even MLB scouting is evolving into younger players.

Bottomline... We all know the pitfalls, but is what's happening good or bad for the game of baseball.  Personally I think it is great for the game, but not for everyone involved.  I believe the more people talk, bitch, moan, disagree, debate, etc., the more awareness it brings to the game most of us love.  Without all of that who really cares?  And I'm all for anything that helps promote the game of baseball.

BTW, for those that don't know it, the Perfect Game College Baseball Show is on Sirius radio every Monday night.  Many interviews with college coaches. Some even talking about early recruiting.  

Also we have a 3 hour show on Sirius about amateur and professional baseball, it comes on right after the Sunday MLB game of the week.  Many great interviews on that show also.  Both are hosted by Daron Sutton who works for PG.  BTW Daron's father is Hall of Famer Don Sutton.

I think people who are involved here would really enjoy listening to those shows.  Might even learn something!

CaCO3Girl posted:

joemktg posted:

FWIW: I'd contend that USSSA, Triple Crown, and other event organizers provide far more platforms for arm abuse than anything PG could ever do. They run 4-6 game tournaments over a 2-3 day period for teams where everyone pitches then plays the field.

Start there first.

USSSA and Triple Crown both have pitching guidelines, they aren't perfect but none of them could be.  What's your glitch with having a kid pitch a couple of innings and then playing in the field?

I guess one person's not perfect is another person's woefully inadequate and bordering on child abuse.  Forget about pitching and then playing SS or C.  I have seen kids throw 80+ and even 100+ pitches on Saturday and come back to throw another 2 innings on Sunday, all perfectly fine under USSSA rules.

If my memory serves me right, as my son came up in USSSA, if he threw 4 innings on a Saturday, he could only pitch 3 innings on a Sunday. If he pitched 5 innings in Saturday, he could not pitch any on Sunday. There was a max of 7 innings on a Friday through Sunday tournament. So if a kid threw 100+ pitches on a Saturday to get through 4 innings...there was something seriously wrong with that pitchers ability...teams ability...and coaches ability to win. 

Looks like currently more than 3 innings requires a day's rest.  When my kids were playing that was not the case -- it was 8 innings total.  So it's gotten somewhat better. But still, after 3 high stress innings and 60+ pitches a kid should not be on the bump the next day.

JCG posted:

...But still, after 3 high stress innings and 60+ pitches a kid should not be on the bump the next day.

Blasphemy Sir!

There are plastic trophies to be won! 

Regarding the Underclass events, doesn't it all go back to fishing in the right pond?  A parent has to have enough sense to understand his sons talent level.  A freshman contributing as a varsity starter in a decent track should consider fishing in that pond.  A freshman fighting for playtime on the freshman team isn't ready!  

 

justbaseball posted:

roothog66 posted:

Only two or three years ago, I would have thought this was a relevant question. Today, the answer would clearly be Louisville, USC, Vanderbilt, UCLA, Arizona State...

roothog - Sometimes on message boards or in cyberspace discussions I think its awfully easy to dig your (my) heels in and think the old way is the only way.

I just wanted to pay you a compliment in that posts like this, of which you've made many about the new landscape, do educate not only people in your son's age group - but old codgers like me about what has changed.

At times I will debate you - because I still believe a level of patience in many situations is better than a sprint.  But I do respect what you have brought to the table and I've become a fan of your posts and point of view. 

The respect is mutual. For the record, I also find the trend of earlier recruiting troubling, but feel like, with a young man of my own, I ignore it at my own peril.

what if you live in an area where even high school baseball is "daddy ball' and you have a kid who college coaches and an MLB scout have told can play D3 and possibly Patriot or Ivy League yet is ignored by the high school coaches...told his turn will come next year (his senior year).  Thoughts???

PGStaff posted:

Some might not believe this, but I think the way this early recruiting is going is not a good thing.  Many colleges hate it, yet they have to do it.  It's really not that beneficial to the players and sometimes very detrimental to the players. I wish it was like it was 10 years ago.

That said, it isn't like it was 10 years ago.  It has turned into the early bird gets the worm.  And it is odd how many of those worms/players all want to go to the same birds/college programs.  So I'm some ways it creates more separation between the top and the bottom.

However, some might argue it has started to benefit some of the colder climate colleges.  They have caught on and are getting the best kids possible from their own areas committed early.  In the past these would be kids that often would end up elsewhere.

Until something happens to change things,  colleges will adjust to whatever works best for them.  The bigger problem involves the players that find out the college has changed their mind and no longer wants them.  Especially those that find that out late and haven't planned for it.

In the meantime, it is what it is.  I think it is vitally important for people to completely understand what it is.  Not whether it is good or bad, but depending on the individual situation it could be good or it could be bad. I do think in most cases it works out, but I know of some cases where it has turned out down right ugly.  Not sure who you blame, other than the system.

Before anyone says it, I know Perfect Game played a large part in all of this.  When we first started doing events for underclassmen there were very few colleges showing up.  Now some of those same events will have over 100 college recruiters and we know even more are following the information we provide.  If that book would have stated that, we would have no response.

So why don't we quit doing these events if we don't like the system.  Reason is, it is too late.  Someone else would simply take our place as many already are doing underclass events.  So we are going to keep trying to get the best possible players and keep trying to help the recruiters. Now even MLB scouting is evolving into younger players.

Bottomline... We all know the pitfalls, but is what's happening good or bad for the game of baseball.  Personally I think it is great for the game, but not for everyone involved.  I believe the more people talk, bitch, moan, disagree, debate, etc., the more awareness it brings to the game most of us love.  Without all of that who really cares?  And I'm all for anything that helps promote the game of baseball.

BTW, for those that don't know it, the Perfect Game College Baseball Show is on Sirius radio every Monday night.  Many interviews with college coaches. Some even talking about early recruiting.  

Also we have a 3 hour show on Sirius about amateur and professional baseball, it comes on right after the Sunday MLB game of the week.  Many great interviews on that show also.  Both are hosted by Daron Sutton who works for PG.  BTW Daron's father is Hall of Famer Don Sutton.

I think people who are involved here would really enjoy listening to those shows.  Might even learn something!

If everyone is into early recruiting, why are so many D1  coaches bringing in 40-45 players in the fall?

Do you mean 40-45 total or 40-45 new?

Anyway, not sure I understand what that has to do with early recruiting. Unless you are talking about over recruiting, which is a different issue.

I don't think everyone is recruiting early, but most all the top programs are.  And many of those below that level are doing it too.  It's easy to figure out why they do it.

Just this past weekend we heard a recruiter say we have to make an offer to a certain 8th grader because he already has an offer from a SEC school.  This 8th grader will ended up being recruited by nearly everyone if he decides to wait.  IMO he has nothing to gain by committing early.  The same schools that want him now will want him later providing he doesn't go backwards.  And if he does go backwards the school he commits to may no longer want him.  And then there is the problem!

You do realize the huge numbers that are turning up in the fall in top D1 programs?  Is this a by-product of early recruiting? Or the result of only 27 scholarships allowed on a roster.

Recruiting 8th graders tells me this has become completely out of control and the NCAA needs to get a handle on this.

PGStaff posted:

Do you mean 40-45 total or 40-45 new?

Anyway, not sure I understand what that has to do with early recruiting. Unless you are talking about over recruiting, which is a different issue.

I don't think everyone is recruiting early, but most all the top programs are.  And many of those below that level are doing it too.  It's easy to figure out why they do it.

Just this past weekend we heard a recruiter say we have to make an offer to a certain 8th grader because he already has an offer from a SEC school.  This 8th grader will ended up being recruited by nearly everyone if he decides to wait.  IMO he has nothing to gain by committing early.  The same schools that want him now will want him later providing he doesn't go backwards.  And if he does go backwards the school he commits to may no longer want him.  And then there is the problem!

if someone is doing early recruiting you Need to do it to stay competitive, I can totally understand those colleges. the college Managers have a Job to protect and they can only do it if they get top Talent and if they wait to Long that Talent is gone.

Colleges probably would like later recruiting but that only works if someone can guarantee them that the other Teams don't reach out for the Young Talent.

really neither the Showcases nor the college coaches are to blame for the early recruiting, only a rule Change could do that.

Rob T posted:

JCG posted:

...But still, after 3 high stress innings and 60+ pitches a kid should not be on the bump the next day.

Blasphemy Sir!

There are plastic trophies to be won! 

yeah - my son needs BB gun target practice......

PGStaff posted:

....This 8th grader will ended up being recruited by nearly everyone if he decides to wait.  IMO he has nothing to gain by committing early.  The same schools that want him now will want him later providing he doesn't go backwards.  And if he does go backwards the school he commits to may no longer want him.  And then there is the problem!

Yeah - I agree.  So why do so many in this situation commit so early?

I heard a story that I'm pretty close to certain is true based on the source.  Really good 8th grader and family approached a P5 school saying THEY wanted to commit.  School kinda said, 'Well, sure...why not?  Ok.'  (Knowing they could get out of it over the next 4 years if anything went south or even halfway south.)

Story suddenly showed up in local papers - obviously the family took it to the papers.

Why?  This seems so crazy to me.  So much that could change - or go wrong over the following 4 years.

justbaseball posted:

PGStaff posted:

....This 8th grader will ended up being recruited by nearly everyone if he decides to wait.  IMO he has nothing to gain by committing early.  The same schools that want him now will want him later providing he doesn't go backwards.  And if he does go backwards the school he commits to may no longer want him.  And then there is the problem!

Yeah - I agree.  So why do so many in this situation commit so early?

I heard a story that I'm pretty close to certain is true based on the source.  Really good 8th grader and family approached a P5 school saying THEY wanted to commit.  School kinda said, 'Well, sure...why not?  Ok.'  (Knowing they could get out of it over the next 4 years if anything went south or even halfway south.)

Story suddenly showed up in local papers - obviously the family took it to the papers.

Why?  This seems so crazy to me.  So much that could go wrong over the following 4 years.

Heard of similar stories. Alumni parents asked for a commitment.

I understand if you dont get top talent sooner someone will get it later? What ever happened to getting good players and developing them into better players?   Maybe there isn't enough good coaching out there to accomplish that? I think there is a lot of early recruiting going on and not enough development.

JMO

 

justbaseball posted:

PGStaff posted:

....This 8th grader will ended up being recruited by nearly everyone if he decides to wait.  IMO he has nothing to gain by committing early.  The same schools that want him now will want him later providing he doesn't go backwards.  And if he does go backwards the school he commits to may no longer want him.  And then there is the problem!

Yeah - I agree.  So why do so many in this situation commit so early?

I heard a story that I'm pretty close to certain is true based on the source.  Really good 8th grader and family approached a P5 school saying THEY wanted to commit.  School kinda said, 'Well, sure...why not?  Ok.'  (Knowing they could get out of it over the next 4 years if anything went south or even halfway south.)

Story suddenly showed up in local papers - obviously the family took it to the papers.

Why?  This seems so crazy to me.  So much that could go wrong over the following 4 years.

There is a LHP at my son's High School who was hitting mid 80's and 6'4 as an incoming freshman.  The word stalked doesn't cover what this kid went through.  He committed in 9th grade so that he could leave his house and have a life without being stalked.  And no, he didn't wind up going to that school, he de-commited but it was his way to get people to leave him alone. I could only imagine the mass chaos that would have happened when he hit 90mph in his Junior year had he not already been committed. 

If I had a 9th grade LPH who couldn't eat, barely slept and was just trying to be a Freshman in high school and couldn't because of how fast he threw a baseball I would tell him to commit too.

CaCO3Girl posted:

There is a LHP at my son's High School who was hitting mid 80's and 6'4 as an incoming freshman.  The word stalked doesn't cover what this kid went through.  He committed in 9th grade so that he could leave his house and have a life without being stalked.  And no, he didn't wind up going to that school, he de-commited but it was his way to get people to leave him alone. I could only imagine the mass chaos that would have happened when he hit 90mph in his Junior year had he not already been committed. 

If I had a 9th grade LPH who couldn't eat, barely slept and was just trying to be a Freshman in high school and couldn't because of how fast he threw a baseball I would tell him to commit too.

I don't think I would.  Absolutely I don't think I would tell him to commit.

I have my doubts, frankly, about that story.  For one, colleges aren't allowed to approach him personally until after his sophomore year.  So how do they stalk him as a freshman?  Attend games (not stalking IMO)?  There are sorta ways around that (e.g. ask his HS coach to tell him to call them), but the parents have options as to whether or not to exercise control to stop it. I've known quite a few 1st round draft picks and top-50 recruits and none went through that.

Almost sounds like a story parents would tell to justify the actions.

But if true, I'd tell the coaches to take a hike for a year or two else risk being out of the picture completely.  Don't think I'd want my kid playing for a stalker coach anyways.

justbaseball posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

There is a LHP at my son's High School who was hitting mid 80's and 6'4 as an incoming freshman.  The word stalked doesn't cover what this kid went through.  He committed in 9th grade so that he could leave his house and have a life without being stalked.  And no, he didn't wind up going to that school, he de-commited but it was his way to get people to leave him alone. I could only imagine the mass chaos that would have happened when he hit 90mph in his Junior year had he not already been committed. 

If I had a 9th grade LPH who couldn't eat, barely slept and was just trying to be a Freshman in high school and couldn't because of how fast he threw a baseball I would tell him to commit too.

I don't think I would.  Absolutely I don't think I would tell him to commit.

I have my doubts, frankly, about that story.  For one, colleges aren't allowed to approach him personally until after his sophomore year.  So how do they stalk him as a freshman?  Attend games (not stalking IMO)?  There are sorta ways around that (e.g. ask his HS coach to tell him to call them), but the parents have options as to whether or not to exercise control to stop it. I've known quite a few 1st round draft picks and top-50 recruits and none went through that.

Almost sounds like a story parents would tell to justify the actions.

But if true, I'd tell the coaches to take a hike for a year or two else risk being out of the picture completely.  Don't think I'd want my kid playing for a stalker coach anyways.

True story, heard it from someone very close to the kid.  He said the kid would go out to the movies and someone's brother who plays baseball for a college approached him while in the ticket line, he didn't know the kid, and give him a card to call coach so and so.  Kid gets inside where there is a  girl who walks up to him and tells him to call coach so and so "My brother plays for him and he's really cool", kid goes to the bathroom and another person approached him.  The kid didn't even want to go out of his house anymore, I don't think these siblings and friends of players just did this out of the kindness of their hearts.

The coaches did show up to bull-pen practices but never actually approached the kid, but he saw them.  HS coach eventually had to let the kid do bullpens inside, one game the kid was so frazzled he warmed up but couldn't throw, his stomach was tight and he felt like he was going to throw up.  His guidance counselor told the kid to commit somewhere, ANYWHERE, so he could mentally get back to living his life and not looking over his shoulder. This kid isn't talkative, he was an awkward, quiet, barely sociable 14 year old giant who could throw a baseball left handed in the mid 80's.

justbaseball posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

There is a LHP at my son's High School who was hitting mid 80's and 6'4 as an incoming freshman.  The word stalked doesn't cover what this kid went through.  He committed in 9th grade so that he could leave his house and have a life without being stalked.  And no, he didn't wind up going to that school, he de-commited but it was his way to get people to leave him alone. I could only imagine the mass chaos that would have happened when he hit 90mph in his Junior year had he not already been committed. 

If I had a 9th grade LPH who couldn't eat, barely slept and was just trying to be a Freshman in high school and couldn't because of how fast he threw a baseball I would tell him to commit too.

I don't think I would.  Absolutely I don't think I would tell him to commit.

I have my doubts, frankly, about that story.  For one, colleges aren't allowed to approach him personally until after his sophomore year.  So how do they stalk him as a freshman?  Attend games (not stalking IMO)?  There are sorta ways around that (e.g. ask his HS coach to tell him to call them), but the parents have options as to whether or not to exercise control to stop it. I've known quite a few 1st round draft picks and top-50 recruits and none went through that.

Almost sounds like a story parents would tell to justify the actions.

But if true, I'd tell the coaches to take a hike for a year or two else risk being out of the picture completely.  Don't think I'd want my kid playing for a stalker coach anyways.

I am with you Tom. Stories always change when heard second hand. Besides, NCAA has rules. Stalking probably is one of them.

Oh, I see the story already has changed!

The advantages and disadvantages to early recruiting for the player has been well documented here. The recruiting scene has changed and continues to evolve. In my opinion, this is all going to work itself out. Baseball recruiting has always bee far different than football and basketball. In those sports, the commitment doesn't end the process. In baseball, schools have traditionally respected the commitment of any player and they have refrained from actively recruiting committed players. Another traditional trait of baseball recruiting was that recruits didn't publicize their offers. In football and basketball, players put their offers into the public sphere; sports news outlets list the offers. That hasn't been true in baseball. At least, that hasn't been true until recently. More and more, I'm seeing recruits tweet out or post online news of who has offered them. Likewise, I think we are soon going to see some schools break the ice on recruiting committed players. It's just a matter of time. When that happens, we'll find it right back where football and basketball is with committed players being wined and dined right up until they sign that NLI. I originally feared that day, but I have come to the conclusion that early recruiting isn't going away and that this next evolution may be the one that actually restores some power back to the kids.

CaCO3Girl posted:

True story, heard it from someone very close to the kid.  He said the kid would go out to the movies and someone's brother who plays baseball for a college approached him while in the ticket line, he didn't know the kid, and give him a card to call coach so and so.  Kid gets inside where there is a  girl who walks up to him and tells him to call coach so and so "My brother plays for him and he's really cool", kid goes to the bathroom and another person approached him.  The kid didn't even want to go out of his house anymore, I don't think these siblings and friends of players just did this out of the kindness of their hearts.

The coaches did show up to bull-pen practices but never actually approached the kid, but he saw them.  HS coach eventually had to let the kid do bullpens inside, one game the kid was so frazzled he warmed up but couldn't throw, his stomach was tight and he felt like he was going to throw up.  His guidance counselor told the kid to commit somewhere, ANYWHERE, so he could mentally get back to living his life and not looking over his shoulder. This kid isn't talkative, he was an awkward, quiet, barely sociable 14 year old giant who could throw a baseball left handed in the mid 80's.

Again, if true (have my doubts), the counselor, the HS coach and the travel coach did a lousy job with that kid.  ALL of these issues are VERY easy to correct by parents with no commitment whatsoever.

Terrible advice and a shirking of duties by that counselor.

VU has 49 commitments in the 2016, 2017,2018 classes...... if you look at the history, 12-14 will be drafted so that number becomes 35-37.... not really over recruiting due to draft,  ... I'm sure their will be a few grade issues, and personal issues that arise... you could lose another 3-4   ......

bacdorslider posted:

VU has 49 commitments in the 2016, 2017,2018 classes...... if you look at the history, 12-14 will be drafted so that number becomes 35-37.... not really over recruiting due to draft,  ... I'm sure their will be a few grade issues, and personal issues that arise... you could lose another 3-4   ......

Some of these are preferred walk-ons, right? I thought no more than 27 could be on scholarship at any one time . . . sure looks like 32+ (even assuming you lose another 3-4) and that is just from those three classes (surely, not every 2015 who went to VU will be drafted in 3 years . . .)

You are correct 27 can get athletic scholarships.  But you can roster I think 34... right now VU has two seniors... they have 1 maybe 2 red shirts.   Last year I think VU had 9 draft eligible and all were drafted.  Hey its not for weak at heart.... you have to produce.   its a three year deal, you are not really expected to be there as a sr.

2019Dad posted:

bacdorslider posted:

VU has 49 commitments in the 2016, 2017,2018 classes...... if you look at the history, 12-14 will be drafted so that number becomes 35-37.... not really over recruiting due to draft,  ... I'm sure their will be a few grade issues, and personal issues that arise... you could lose another 3-4   ......

Some of these are preferred walk-ons, right? I thought no more than 27 could be on scholarship at any one time . . . sure looks like 32+ (even assuming you lose another 3-4) and that is just from those three classes (surely, not every 2015 who went to VU will be drafted in 3 years . . .)

It's one of the huge advantages that the private schools (and a few publics like UNC and UV) have. They have huge endowments that let them work their need-based scholarships down to levels of income that make almost everyone eligible, thereby decreasing the academic need. For example, Stanford just announced their level (if I'm remembering right) for next year at $125,000. So, if you get into Stanford and your family's household income is under $125,000, need based aid will cover the entire tuition.

I also don't consider Vandy as over recruiting, but, it looks like they are pretty much done with the 2016, 2017, and 2018 classes and on their way to filling 2019. Vandy is one of those schools getting the absolute best, so if Vandy approaches you and makes an offer, you have to take it quickly if you think that's where you have to go. They won't continue to make the offer next year. They will just move on to the next stud. By leading the early recruiting movement, they have put together maybe some of the most talented classes of all time.

roothog66 posted:

2019Dad posted:

bacdorslider posted:

VU has 49 commitments in the 2016, 2017,2018 classes...... if you look at the history, 12-14 will be drafted so that number becomes 35-37.... not really over recruiting due to draft,  ... I'm sure their will be a few grade issues, and personal issues that arise... you could lose another 3-4   ......

Some of these are preferred walk-ons, right? I thought no more than 27 could be on scholarship at any one time . . . sure looks like 32+ (even assuming you lose another 3-4) and that is just from those three classes (surely, not every 2015 who went to VU will be drafted in 3 years . . .)

It's one of the huge advantages that the private schools (and a few publics like UNC and UV) have. They have huge endowments that let them work their need-based scholarships down to levels of income that make almost everyone eligible, thereby decreasing the academic need. For example, Stanford just announced their level (if I'm remembering right) for next year at $125,000. So, if you get into Stanford and your family's household income is under $125,000, need based aid will cover the entire tuition.

I also don't consider Vandy as over recruiting, but, it looks like they are pretty much done with the 2016, 2017, and 2018 classes and on their way to filling 2019. Vandy is one of those schools getting the absolute best, so if Vandy approaches you and makes an offer, you have to take it quickly if you think that's where you have to go. They won't continue to make the offer next year. They will just move on to the next stud. By leading the early recruiting movement, they have put together maybe some of the most talented classes of all time.

OK, makes sense. I know that the Ivies have something similar -- family income below a certain threshold and it is just like a full scholarship (no loans), but it is need-based and open to every student, so it isn't athletic aid (though it is one of the reasons they have gotten more competitive in sports the last 5-10 years).

Also, agree with your highlighted text. Just by way of example, the best 13U/14U pitcher I've seen -- the kid played for the USA Baseball 15U national team as a 14-year-old, which is kind of hard to do -- committed to Vandy in December. 

And to add to our recruiting early topic that this seems to have morphed into....anyone else notice the new thread? As of this moment 2021's are 7th graders.

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