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Rob T posted:
roothog66 posted:

I just read an interview Cressey conducted with Passan where Passan states:

"Major League Baseball's greatest failure was allowing a for-profit company to co-opt its pipeline.

Holy crap that's about the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard a "journalist" make.  Does he even hear himself?

Its pipeline?  Hell - why not put MLB in charge of all of baseball all the way down to LL t-ball?  Is that not their pipeline?  Why does MLB have dominion over all of baseball?  Is there a problem with all those colleges tapping into this pipeline?

Not to mention the whole "for profit" angle.  Because as we all know, the MLB exists only to protect the future health of America's youth. 

It's become pretty obvious that Passan has an issue with PG, and is willing to say whatever it takes to further his agenda.  Facts and logic be damned.

I don't think he has a problem with pg itself but with the travel/showcase industry and early high performance training in general. Pg is just the face of that big industry.

Dominik85 posted:
Rob T posted:
roothog66 posted:

I just read an interview Cressey conducted with Passan where Passan states:

"Major League Baseball's greatest failure was allowing a for-profit company to co-opt its pipeline.

Holy crap that's about the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard a "journalist" make.  Does he even hear himself?

Its pipeline?  Hell - why not put MLB in charge of all of baseball all the way down to LL t-ball?  Is that not their pipeline?  Why does MLB have dominion over all of baseball?  Is there a problem with all those colleges tapping into this pipeline?

Not to mention the whole "for profit" angle.  Because as we all know, the MLB exists only to protect the future health of America's youth. 

It's become pretty obvious that Passan has an issue with PG, and is willing to say whatever it takes to further his agenda.  Facts and logic be damned.

I don't think he has a problem with pg itself but with the travel/showcase industry and early high performance training in general. Pg is just the face of that big industry.

I have an overwhelming urge to blame Kleenex for my cold.

Dominik85 posted:

I don't think he has a problem with pg itself but with the travel/showcase industry and early high performance training in general. Pg is just the face of that big industry.

If you read the excerpts, it is obvious he has a large issue with PG.  He may use it as the "face" of the "industry" - but that doesn't justify being outright dishonest in the things he states about it specifically.  

In any case - the pipeline is not MLB's to control.  It belongs to the players who make it up - not the final entity who is in it for the billions it makes every year.

Last edited by Rob T

Where does USA Baseball fall in the athlete development pipeline?  Other National Governing Bodies (USA Weighlifting, USA Hockey) have Athlete Development Models (ADM) that provide some structure for coaches and athletes as to how to appropriately develop at different ages.

I agree that MLB doesn't own and isn't necessarily responsible for the pipeline (haven't given it an incredible amount of thought, I could easily be convinced otherwise).  So, is it within the realm of USA Baseball?  Should that org be responsible for developing an ADM in order to shape the pipeline?

Just found this thanks to Dr. Google:

http://www.teamusa.org/About-t...an-Development-Model

If baseball is no longer an Olympic sport, how does the USOC ADM in the link above influence USA Baseball?

Just some questions that I don't have answers to....

CaCO3Girl posted:

PG is now enforcing Pitch Smart guidelines for tournaments...good thing right?

All the buzz on the local Georgia travel ball forum over the past couple of weeks has been about how ridiculous these guidelines are and how it doesn't make sense for PG to enforce them.  

Sounds like a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't for the folks at PG. 

hshuler posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:

PG is now enforcing Pitch Smart guidelines for tournaments...good thing right?

All the buzz on the local Georgia travel ball forum over the past couple of weeks has been about how ridiculous these guidelines are and how it doesn't make sense for PG to enforce them.  

Sounds like a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't for the folks at PG. 

Tell those on the Georgia TB forum they will have plenty of chances outside PG to overuse their pitchers.

If anybody wants to point a finger at somebody for arm abuse in travel ball, it really should be USSSA baseball and the like.  I can't count the times I've seen pitchers throw 80, 100, or more pitches on a Saturday and then run out again on Sunday, completely within the rules. It happens every weekend all over the country from 10u on up, with thousands of players involved.  It's a much bigger issue than the relatively few tournaments hosted by PG and the like for elite players.

JCG posted:

If anybody wants to point a finger at somebody for arm abuse in travel ball, it really should be USSSA baseball and the like.  I can't count the times I've seen pitchers throw 80, 100, or more pitches on a Saturday and then run out again on Sunday, completely within the rules. It happens every weekend all over the country from 10u on up, with thousands of players involved.  It's a much bigger issue than the relatively few tournaments hosted by PG and the like for elite players.

You can include AAU in there as well.

Go44dad posted:
hshuler posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:

PG is now enforcing Pitch Smart guidelines for tournaments...good thing right?

All the buzz on the local Georgia travel ball forum over the past couple of weeks has been about how ridiculous these guidelines are and how it doesn't make sense for PG to enforce them.  

Sounds like a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't for the folks at PG. 

Tell those on the Georgia TB forum they will have plenty of chances outside PG to overuse their pitchers.

LOL - will do!

I read the comments on the Georgia TB forum, and it seems they are bent out of shape because Pitch Smart doesn't fit within the framework of a tournament weekend with 4-5 games over the course of the weekend.  I think this is letting the tail wag the dog.  What they should be asking is "if Pitch Smart doesn't work within a tournament weekend, what does that say about playing that many games during a weekend?"

My point being - is it really necessary for 10-14 year olds to be playing that many games over the course of a weekend?  This may ruffle the feathers of the "travel/showcase/elite/premier" for-profit industry, but how much development really occurs in games vs practice?  Would the players develop more if some of those games were replaced by 45 minutes of infield and 45 minutes of BP?  Or for the pitchers, how about spending some time doing long toss, building a healthy arm, as opposed to throwing in live game situations all the time, maxing out a pitch count?

I was at a travel tournament the other weekend.  I watched a coach spend 5 minutes telling the players (10 year olds) how to bunt, just before they took the field for a game.  No practicing, just a description of the fundamentals.  The team never practices, they just play games all the time.  That's how they were introduced to bunting, with a few words.  What other fundamentals are they taught in the downtime between games without ever practicing?  Not a good model for development in my humble opinion.

I have read the book.  There are some good points in it, and some issues as well.  There are a lot of more knowledgeable people than me when it comes to TJ for certain.  Having experienced this first hand, I have to come to the conclusion that we just don't know.  I really do think that maybe kids are pushing too hard, too fast, too early.  I think most of the throwing programs out there have great info and will certainly work.  What I fear is that young men are applying these training protocols to their body before the anatomy of the body is ready for that type of load.  Everyone is different in their maturity, so this is where is gets to be really even more difficult.  I just think most 14-15 year olds haven't reached the point physiologically that the joints and tendons can hold up to the added pressure of velocity training.  I just don't know.  What I do know is that kids have been throwing as hard as they can for a 100 years.  It doesn't matter if its with a baseball or a rock.  I look back and wonder what it was that caused my son's elbow to fail.  He wasn't overused, I don't think he pitched very much while fatigued, he didn't throw curve balls until 14 or 15.  I just don't know.  What I do know is there will never be another pitch he delivers that my stomach won't be turning.  In the end, I guess it is what it is.  There is absolutely nothing I can do, and all he can do is follow his doctor's, trainer's and coaches' philosophy.  Maybe he should get a bat back in his hand?

Matt Reiland posted:

I read the comments on the Georgia TB forum, and it seems they are bent out of shape because Pitch Smart doesn't fit within the framework of a tournament weekend with 4-5 games over the course of the weekend.  I think this is letting the tail wag the dog.  What they should be asking is "if Pitch Smart doesn't work within a tournament weekend, what does that say about playing that many games during a weekend?"

My point being - is it really necessary for 10-14 year olds to be playing that many games over the course of a weekend?  This may ruffle the feathers of the "travel/showcase/elite/premier" for-profit industry, but how much development really occurs in games vs practice?  Would the players develop more if some of those games were replaced by 45 minutes of infield and 45 minutes of BP?  Or for the pitchers, how about spending some time doing long toss, building a healthy arm, as opposed to throwing in live game situations all the time, maxing out a pitch count?

I was at a travel tournament the other weekend.  I watched a coach spend 5 minutes telling the players (10 year olds) how to bunt, just before they took the field for a game.  No practicing, just a description of the fundamentals.  The team never practices, they just play games all the time.  That's how they were introduced to bunting, with a few words.  What other fundamentals are they taught in the downtime between games without ever practicing?  Not a good model for development in my humble opinion.

Matt, my son has done travel baseball since 9u (he's 14u now) and he has ALWAYS had practices, and learned to bunt during the practices.  I have no idea what kind of team you saw but that was ONE team, please don't judge them all based on it.

To your question how much development really occurs in games vs. practice, I would say that depends on what you call development.  You can not simulate game situations effectively during a practice, unless it is a scrimmage.

The problem with the GA board is they refuse to have PO's at 10u (I agree), so they have 10u teams with 10-11 kids, BUT, 4 or 5 of them don't pitch. Why don't they pitch....well because inexperienced coaches depend on 5 kids to pitch EVERY weekend and the rest do not get trained.   THAT'S the real problem! There is a lot of whining about the rules because they can't pitch their stud pitcher 3 innings on Saturday and another 5 innings on Sunday and they are ticked, well boo-freaking -who, teach your ENTIRE team how to pitch and this won't be a problem.  The travel/showcase/elite/premier teams you speak of actually don't have this problem because those coaches know better.

I only saw one 'tournament' format in all of our 2 sons' travel ball days that did not entice overuse of pitchers.  Maybe its more common now?  Maybe it doesn't even exist now?  But it was the only one I saw.

Arizona Fall Classic (or some name like that).  I don't even know who ran it/runs it?  Lots of college coaches around.  Team played fixed number of games over 3 days - 4 or 5 I think?  No standings.  No champion.  No pressure to 'win.' No pressure to overuse pitchers - in fact, just the opposite.  Just games against great competition.  

I guess you'd call it a showcase, yet it had a very different feel than typical showcases.  For one, you played for your regular travel team instead of a  'put-together' team by the organizers.  In other words, you're with your friends and regular teammates.  For another, to my knowledge there was no score afterwards - just whatever the college coaches watching thought.  Generated interest for our younger son - right away in fact.

If winning is the dam* problem? - why not use this format more often?  Or maybe it is now?

Last edited by justbaseball
Consultant posted:

We started this format with the cooperation of MLB and pro scouts in the first 1987 Area Code games in Lodi, California. "The rest is history". It was like creating a "stage" show. The scouts are the audience and players the entertainers.

Bob

You are right Bob - my apologies.  Area Code Games is the other place I saw it.

Difference is you're selected for a truly elite AC team - whereas the tournament I mentioned above was for your regular travel team.  Gives 'below the radar' players a chance to be seen and used properly.

Last edited by justbaseball

Arizona Fall Classic, it is a great event and heavily scouted. It is the only event that I know of that doesn't keep score.  And it works well there.

Individual showcase games keep score, but there is no pressure to win, no standings, no champion, just good competition.  And not only is there no pressure to overuse a pitcher, it simply doesn't happen.

Not keeping score might work at one or two select places, but not keeping score in baseball would end interest in the game.  There's nothing wrong with trying to win a game, in fact it is a good thing.  The problem is when kids are placed at unnecessary risk in order to win a game. That is when winning becomes the problem.  Enjoying the game is very important and I have to wonder how many would enjoy playing in a lot of games or tournaments that didn't keep score or care about winning.  IMO playing for keeps makes baseball interesting.  I know that is what most scouts and recruiters want to see.   The idea is to win or lose the right way and there are many that do that. Unfortunately there are some that don't get it.

Bob you sure have accomplished a lot in baseball.  Your ideas were ahead of their time.  You are the Godfather when it comes to producing scouting attractions.  Then when you left the Area Codes you still continued to create great opportunities for young players through your Goodwill games.  You have earned a lot of respect over the years. When did the Area Codes start keeping score of the games?

PG; Unfortunately, I have not returned to the scene in Long Beach and after two years as an advisor to Student Sports, I realize the Corporate world was not for me. Honestly, I prefer real estate development and the International World of Baseball. This is my favorite Vinnie story. He is an artist of the verbal.

Bob

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Last edited by Consultant
lionbaseball posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:

So an employee of PG, Jeff Dahn, interviews the founder of PG, Jerry Ford?  

Fair point and should be called out.  Also fair to point out PG Inc. did clearly state it was a PG employee interviewing a PG founder, so all is on the up and up from a "journalism" standpoint.  Disclosure was full.  And guaranteed the article went through PG legal counsel before publishing.  PG has kept their powder dry.

Go44dad posted:
lionbaseball posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:

So an employee of PG, Jeff Dahn, interviews the founder of PG, Jerry Ford?  

Fair point and should be called out.  Also fair to point out PG Inc. did clearly state it was a PG employee interviewing a PG founder, so all is on the up and up from a "journalism" standpoint.  Disclosure was full.  And guaranteed the article went through PG legal counsel before publishing.  PG has kept their powder dry.

I understand which is why I pointed out the names.   This would be similar to me sending recommendation letters for my son to the military academies, all from his mother.  

It was recommended that we respond.  Pretty much everything in that response was told to the author of the book when he interviewed me.  He just chose to go a different direction.  

We are open and would welcome any questions from anyone that wants an interview.  In fact, we are hoping that many media outlets will ask questions, once they see the response.

We could have easily secured another writer to do the interview.  Didn't think it was necessary.  Should be obvious they we controlled the questions.  How else could we respond to those things in the book that were simply untrue.

We could have hidden the name of the writer.  Trying to fool people is not our style. 

Other than that one response this (HSBBW) is the only place I have voiced my opinions regarding this topic.  Reason being that over the years I know there have been many that participate here that have known us well.  It's not like everyone loves PG, but lots of people here on the HSBBW have had positive experiences.

This might sound corny, but I know we have a lot of friends here.  Not all those friends agree with everything we think.  And I wouldn't want that!  Perfect Game or myself is not perfect!  I'm not always right, but you can bet your last dollar that anytime I write or say something it will be the absolute truth as I know it.  At the same time, I have changed my mind about things in the past.

For sure we won't be firing  Jeff Dahn, he is one of the most liked and respected writers in baseball.

BTW, those that follow PG are going to see so many recommendations from so many baseball people it will make your head spin.  And it will pretty much prove the truth.

Over the years we have so many quotes from people in baseball, but we only list a few on our site.  Because the book claims the author has never seen so much unity for enmity of one organization. We are going to prove just how wrong he was.

We haven't decided whether to take legal action.  It would be very expensive and time consuming.  Not sure what good it would do us anyway.  But one thing for sure is we have to respond.  That response on our website was just the beginning.  We might create so much interest that his book becomes a best seller.  The sad part of all this is the book probably has some real value regarding arm injuries.   We would have promoted it if that were the case.  Instead the author must have needed to add some sensationalism.  It wasn't just us that he used.  But several of the things he wrote are so far from the truth, they just can't be ignored.  And many of the things he was told, he completely ignored. I can only say, it lacked honesty.

So some might be troubled by a PG writer interviewing me, but nothing in that interview lacks honesty.

lionbaseball posted:
Go44dad posted:
lionbaseball posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:

So an employee of PG, Jeff Dahn, interviews the founder of PG, Jerry Ford?  

Fair point and should be called out.  Also fair to point out PG Inc. did clearly state it was a PG employee interviewing a PG founder, so all is on the up and up from a "journalism" standpoint.  Disclosure was full.  And guaranteed the article went through PG legal counsel before publishing.  PG has kept their powder dry.

I understand which is why I pointed out the names.   This would be similar to me sending recommendation letters for my son to the military academies, all from his mother.  

So, Lion, Mr. Ford claims to have been misquoted.  What he should have done is hired an impartial journalist to tell his story to so he could be misquoted again???  That would have helped, NOT!

It seems like blaming PG for arm injuries is unjust regardless of who interviewed whom. It would be really nice if pitch limits were introduced at all levels of tournament play including the youngsters 8-15. This would really prevent coaches who are intent on winning from abusing any kids. I don't think radar guns are necessary for non-high school players but for high school players, it is just a fact of life. They will be measured on  speed, velocity, bat speed etc. 

Agree completely.  Last year we decided to go with PitchSmart rules.  I think we were listed as partial compliant or something like that.  This year we will move to full compliance at all age divisions. In fact, we have already had a game called a forfeit.

The problem is these kids don't just go to our tournaments.  So we are going to try to educate as many as we can at our events, so that it might carry over into other places they play.

That is a great step in the right direction. I remember when my son was playing in a tournament years ago and the opposing pitcher (about 11 years old) had thrown over a 100 pitches, was grabbing his arm and saying it hurt and the coach would not pull him out. Turned out it was the coach's son. I can't imagine what became of his arm and hope it is okay. Considering PG's clout in the baseball arena, a step in this direction by PG would encourage the others to take similar steps thus paving the path for some regulation when it comes to ensuring that we are protecting our kids' young arms.

I'm not a good writer, but here is an excerpt from a story on our site from many years ago.  Forgive the writing and just read the message. Don't expect everyone to agree, but arm care is something we have always been involved with.  Long before any book about TJ surgery was even thought about.

Young Pitchers

Young pitchers need to allow themselves to gain velocity naturally. This is often mistaken to mean never throwing hard! There is a fine line between taking things as they come and training the arm to throw hard. It should be noted that pitchers gain velocity at different stages. Some reach their max at a very young age, others have been known to reach their peak velocity in the mid 20s. There are way too many variables to consider as to why that happens. It is my belief that gaining arm strength does require throwing hard. This does not mean throwing too much. We work closely with Rick Peterson and he works closely with Doc Andrews. Rick’s major emphasis is on mechanics, some very technical stuff that can predict injury. More on that later, but Rick is going to revolutionize pitching science and we are very happy to help him.

Once again… This is not to say the fastball is the only important ingredient in becoming a successful pitcher. Some will never throw with high velocity, but will be very successful in high school and even college baseball. There is even a chance that a pitcher lacking good velocity will make it big in professional baseball. However, if the goal is to become an early round draft pick and especially if a pitcher is right handed and lacks velocity, that is just wishing into the wind. The fastball and good fastball velocity is the one thing that nearly every early draft pick pitcher has in common. There simply isn’t any early draft picks that throw in the low 80s. This should be enough incentive to make sure you don’t ignore this most important ingredient shared by most of the top pitchers. It doesn’t mean 86-88 mph won’t work as well as 90 plus, it simply means low 80s will not open the big door with all the money behind it. However, it might open the small door and still give you a chance. It’s not a matter of what some might want to believe… It’s closer to a fact!

I keep reading about breaking balls being used more and more by young pitchers. We have seen lots of high school pitchers that rely on their breaking ball to win games. We have seen young kids with very good curveballs and well below average fastballs. We have talked to parents who complain that we over estimate the importance of the fastball and velocity. Of course, once again, there is much more that goes into making a pitching prospect than the ability to throw a good fastball. The fastball alone will not produce success unless it is in the rare fastball category. This rare category changes with each level of play, but in the end it would be in the mid 90s and above area.

The reason I decided to write this is because of the ongoing debate involving youth pitching and arm care. The debate over whether or not the curveball thrown properly is a safe pitch for youngsters is not my major concern. Proper mechanics and technique used to throw the curveball can probably make this pitch usable at a young age. Proper technique is the key, though. The curveball is a hard pitch to master, especially when it comes to commanding the pitch. So years of practice is likely to help develop this pitch over time. My biggest problem is the young kids being taught and trying to master 5 or 6 different pitches. I also believe the slider/cutter and especially the split finger pitches are among the most dangerous pitches for a young arm and should be avoided at a young age. Not being part of the medical profession, I’m basing all this on common sense and experience.

I'm still reading the book - recommended by the physical trainer working on my sons shoulder and who has worked on many TJ cases in our area (and secondarily because I saw it mentioned here too).   While yes, it certainly points a finger at PG, I also think it has been indicating all along that there is no absolute answer.  The problem existed before PG and if PG didn't exist, the problem would still be there. Personally I think it's more because PG's base is more widespread than others - so focus on a market more people know about with a "hope" to effect change. It's not an usual thing - didn't MickeyD's adjust things based on pointed news stories about transfat?  I don't think anyone would believe MickeyD's is the only industry titan that uses transfat. To me PG is used as a scapegoat of sorts - "good" players don't just appear out of nowhere. I would say a large (if not all) majority of folks here know how much it costs for college and seeing baseball as an avenue to either help pay for that or perhaps even get a child into a school he otherwise may not qualify for drives people to do things, take chances and believe that "it" won't happen to them. Getting to be "good enough" requires a lot of hard work, training, etc. That training though can be considered factors depending on what's done.  Way too many "opinions" out there over what's the best way.  For those willing to pay a price and take the chance, I assume it feels worth it up to the time of injury.  Physiologically let's face it, the motion required to pitch a baseball is a prime factor.  So perhaps genetics have an impact in whether an individual's body can do it. Placing "blame" on PG is ludicrous to me. My kids never went to a PG event - they've played collegiately. Both have had shoulder injuries. Both have been told their injuries were multi factored between genetics and the volume of doing something the shoulder wasn't "designed" to do.

If pitch counts were that important, wouldn't MLB the industry that relies on pitchers so much implement pitch counts. Certain teams do, certain agents do for their players, but for the most part when it comes down to winning or losing, we know what gets ignored.  LLBB sets pitch counts and people don't like it.  HS organizations set pitch counts and people don't like it. But yet it's shown that it can be a factor.  What's "interesting" about both is those just pitch counts for those organizations - nothing stops the player (and/or parents) from also going outside those organizations and pitching even more.  We all "know" LLBB players also play for teams in other groups and there's no "policing" between the groups other than by well, the parents/players. If you're willing to take the chance, then so be it. It's all about risk and reward on a personal basis.

If nothing else, at least the book has brought the conversation to the fore front even more so than it was before.

Would it make sense to ban college recruiting before the sophomore year is finished? 

It seems like a still growing arm is more susceptible to injuries due to volume and intensity of throwing and if you tell colleges they can't contact players before they have finished their sophomore year it would lessen the need to light up radar guns when or even before you are a freshman. 

JohnF posted:

 

If pitch counts were that important, wouldn't MLB the industry that relies on pitchers so much implement pitch counts. Certain teams do, certain agents do for their players, but for the most part when it comes down to winning or losing, we know what gets ignored. 

Where did you get the idea that they were not?

PG just offers what the market demands.  If they didn't someone else would do it. 

However it would be possible to stop colleges from recruiting freshmen. 

IMO the biggest problem is the fear of falling behind or "stay ahead of the curve" or "climb much of the mountain early". 

Throwing hard can be trained but everyone has his genetic limit.  Starting to push it a year later won't change the end result much but an older arm will be much more resilient. 

By taking away the early recruiting the fear of falling behind could be lessened. 

Dominik85 posted:

PG just offers what the market demands.  If they didn't someone else would do it. 

However it would be possible to stop colleges from recruiting freshmen. 

IMO the biggest problem is the fear of falling behind or "stay ahead of the curve" or "climb much of the mountain early". 

Throwing hard can be trained but everyone has his genetic limit.  Starting to push it a year later won't change the end result much but an older arm will be much more resilient. 

By taking away the early recruiting the fear of falling behind could be lessened. 

On the freshman recruiting, how?  and for all sports, male/female?  Just curious.  

Go44dad posted:
Dominik85 posted:

By taking away the early recruiting the fear of falling behind could be lessened. 

On the freshman recruiting, how?  and for all sports, male/female?  Just curious.  

I haven't really thought too much about the nuances of this - but early recruiting has gotten crazy.  We've all heard or read stories about Jr. HS kids 'committing' across multiple sports.  And this site has plenty of evidence of parents/athletes chasing the 'early commitment' beginning with 14-year olds.

I actually do wish the NCAA would find a way to curtail or even eliminate this.  I have a hard time seeing the upside of it for athletes - it seems to me to only be to the advantage of the schools who can easily divorce themselves of the 'commitment' anytime and for any reason they want.  And therein lies the problem, perhaps?  But the NCAA is not very much about the 'student athlete' IMO.

Can't we all be more efficient about choosing the right school academically and athletically by waiting until at least the junior year?  I believe yes.

Dominik85 posted:

PG just offers what the market demands.  If they didn't someone else would do it. 

However it would be possible to stop colleges from recruiting freshmen. 

IMO the biggest problem is the fear of falling behind or "stay ahead of the curve" or "climb much of the mountain early". 

Throwing hard can be trained but everyone has his genetic limit.  Starting to push it a year later won't change the end result much but an older arm will be much more resilient. 

By taking away the early recruiting the fear of falling behind could be lessened. 

The problem is that you are talking simply about pitchers. It would be a tough sale to change all the NCAA recruiting rules simply for the sake of one position in one somewhat minor (by college standards) sport.

So, having re-read the book over the weekend, my opinions have been intensified. The book contains some very useful information that was well researched and though out. However, it loses credibility when it pivots from well organized research to pure speculation based on an illogical premises. To me the BIG problem is that the entire book is based on the idea that arm injuries are occurring at higher rates and involve younger players than ever before. There is absolutely no logical evidence that this is a true premises. Yes, surgery rates are up and it can even be said that injuries reported to physicians have increased. However, that evidence does not speak to injury rates. It only speaks to treatment rates.

Arm injuries have always been, and will always be, a very real risk to pitching. How we treat arm injuries is what has changed. I am definitely not saying there isn't a problem - just that the problem has always existed and there is no proof of any "epidemic." Not that long ago, it would have been extremely strange for a kid to seek treatment for a pitching injury. The course of action was simply to stop pitching or pitch through pain. Very few parents would have even entertained the idea of taking their kid to the doctor for a sore elbow due to pitching, let alone taking them to a surgeon. Therefore, most youth injuries weren't documented. Heck, the same applied up until about 40 years ago for major leaguers - pitch through the pain or retire.

Today, we know so much more about the causes of such injuries and our methods for treating them are far more sophisticated. Finally, we recognize that there is a problem for which education, care, and planning can have an impact. We take better care of pitcher's arms than ever before. Instead of taking the old school notion that there isn't anything you can do about it, we advance in arm care and arm injury treatment. What a wonderful time to be a pitcher!

The mistake we make, though, is to look at the raw statistics concerning increases in surgery rates and draw from this a conclusion that is logically just wrong - that an increase in treatment equals an increase in actual injury. You' can only conclude that there are more surgeries. That's it.

So  much is being done today in the field and there is still so much more to be done. However, a lot of time is also wasted with finger pointing and fear mongering. Instead of marveling at the advancements, we've drawn the above illogical conclusion and, rather than focus all of our attention on treatment and preventative advancements, we have been drawn into the zero-sum game of comparing older methods and more recent developments (i.e. changes in how youth organize and play the game) to try and assign blame. In doing so we have created some false "epidemic."

So, why can't we continue to advance this field and adjust our methods to the current state of the game without trying to find some magic root cause in how the game has changed? Why can't we realize that the root cause of injuries is simply that pitching is a violent activity for the arm - as it always has been - and focus on how much there is that we can do about understanding and minimizing those injuries today that we have ever been capable of doing at any previous time in the history of the sport?

JohnF posted:

II would say a large (if not all) majority of folks here know how much it costs for college and seeing baseball as an avenue to either help pay for that or perhaps even get a child into a school he otherwise may not qualify for drives people to do things, take chances and believe that "it" won't happen to them.

It is often overlooked here - or skimmed over...

But our daughter, who could have been a D1 athlete, passed on that option and received more $$ for academics than she woulda got as an athlete...and more $$ than her eventual All American brother got for baseball.

In fact, if all costs are accounted for from HS through college, our cost/benefit ratio for her as far as money expended by us to acquire scholarship $$ plus actual college costs have FAR EXCEEDED her brothers by relying on academics instead of sports.

Her post-college employment outlook is better too - she has had the time to major and excel in engineering - a tough thing to do as an athlete (fenwaysouth's son excepted   ).

justbaseball posted:
JohnF posted:

II would say a large (if not all) majority of folks here know how much it costs for college and seeing baseball as an avenue to either help pay for that or perhaps even get a child into a school he otherwise may not qualify for drives people to do things, take chances and believe that "it" won't happen to them.

It is often overlooked here - or skimmed over...

But our daughter, who could have been a D1 athlete, passed on that option and received more $$ for academics than she woulda got as an athlete...and more $$ than her eventual All American brother got for baseball.

In fact, if all costs are accounted for from HS through college, our cost/benefit ratio for her as far as money expended by us to acquire scholarship $$ plus actual college costs have FAR EXCEEDED her brothers by relying on academics instead of sports.

Her post-college employment outlook is better too - she has had the time to major and excel in engineering - a tough thing to do as an athlete (fenwaysouth's son excepted   ).

Maybe this is where the education needs to focus. If there are parents actually chasing scholarships for the purpose of mitigating tuition damage they aren't very good with math. As an example, my 2018 will be attending, among several summer out-of-state events, the PG Junior national Showcase. The total cost, with entry, lodging, flights, for that one event will probably exceed $2500. That's an amount that already equals a very big portion of college tuition (especially at an in-state school). By the time the summer is over, I'm sure I will have spent the equivalent of at least a semester's tuition. The costs over just the high school summer years will exceed any scholarship money he could receive. If that were our motivation, I would be in for a very rude awakening when I did the math.

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