The Insanity Continues

2017LHPscrewball posted:

My son adjusted fine to the BBCOR bat and the 60x90 field without lessons, hits in a prime spot, plays multiple positions, and is the #2 pitcher on his 14u team. 

Why are you holding him back when he could be living the jet set life!  I'd have only sent my kid away on weekends if I got to keep the frequent flier miles.  But seriously, there are lessons (couple of times a month to check mechanics) and then there are LESSONS.  LESSONS  are those recurring bi-weekly events (paid six month ahead) where the dad sits in the corner and prays for the kid to be enlightened and magically become athletic.  I cannot tell you how many times I've seen some dad working with some poor kid saying "just like they told you at the lesson" - when what the dad really needs to do is buy the kid a pitchback and let him spend a few fun hours in the backyard each night.  I doubt CACO is saying lessons are inherently bad, I just think she has seen too many instances where some dad (or mom) thinks lessons are the magic key and put way too much pressure on their kid when they don't "blossom" after a few thousand bucks. (CACO - please correct me if I misspoke).

 On the Daddy-ball front, I have seen several instances where the coach's son is an absolute fixture at SS and some pitching.  Oftentimes the kid is one of the better infielders, but for some reason SS is the golden position.  If a parent likes the coach and SS just happens to not be your goal, then these coaches can be great and give your kid lots of reps at 2B and 3B.  And, as has been said here before, you really don't want your kid to be the ace pitcher until around age 16.  They can still pitch and improve, but you really don't want you kid to carry 50% of the pitching load - unless they shell out for first class tickets for the parents.

That's pretty much it.  And it breaks my heart when I hear the parent of the smallest kid on the team yelling "come on, what have all those lessons been for!".

During my son's 11u year I was walking to the concessions stand and overheard a conversation between a mother and a very small 11u kid.  She was saying something like "Now when you get up to bat you have to remember to turn that belt buckle and I'm SURE you can hit it over the fence, now hit it just like your instructor told you to"  She actually said it in a warm/friendly/positive tone, the kid looked up and I saw tears in his eyes "I'm not *insert my kids name* stop trying to make me into him, I'M NOT HIM!

My son has always been the tallest and biggest kid on every team he has played on, logic said he was going to throw harder than the smallest kid, but it didn't mean he was "better", and it didn't mean the small kid was bad at baseball.

Some parents don't understand you can't buy talent. Academies love these parents. They buy and buy.

My son didn't have paid instruction until post soph year. He had a lot of individual instruction from me. I also put together an excellent coaching staff through 16u. He had lessons to refine his game when he started tuning me out. He had to listen to private coaches.

My daughter never tuned me out. But I sent her to speed camp.

Go44dad posted:

CaCo wrote.....I have always been of the opinion that spending money on private lessons below 14u (unless the kid is hurting himself) is more ludicrous than 6u Travel Ball, so I would never recommend that route.

Edited to be nicer just in case we meet at LakePoint at the WWBA in June and just because people should be nice....I know it is your opinion on the lessons, but I believe the opposite.  Private lessons to teach the fundamentals of hitting, throwing etc are a very good thing.  Obviously with the caveat that the lesson payments are not in place of rent/food etc.  The game is much more enjoyable for a kid when he can hit, throw properly etc. 

 

 

I agree 100%.  I would add though that as long as the lessons aren't too much for the kid.  My son LOVED lessons, and he started going around 10.  It definitely helped him to excel, because I couldn't teach him.  Using the type of thinking that lessons are bad: Does it mean that if the father could teach him, he shouldn't?  Most dads who know how to play, or did play, spend plenty of extra time teaching their sons how to hit, throw, etc.  Why should my son fall behind because I can't teach him at the level those dads can?

To RJM's point:

In some cases where the kid is not so athletic, it might be better to sock away the money in a "college fund" than to spend the money on lessons, camps, showcases, etc.

Far more academic money available (scholarships, etc) than athletic money.We probably spent $5,000 or so on travel team expenses, hotels, food, gas over the 7 years he played travel ball. Not sure how much we actually spent - I never kept track.  In the end he netted a $9,000 athletic scholarship from a D2 after playing JuCo ball.  So fortunately we came out ahead.One can easily spend more chasing an athletic scholarship than what it is worth.  You make your choice and pay the money (or not).

I have to ask, why can't people spend money doing things they enjoy?  Why does everything have to be considered an investment.  There are educational advantages involved in most everything a person does.

I have a grandson who is very good at swimming. Actually he got a DI scholarship for swimming.  When we can we spend money and time traveling to watch him swim.  I don't really enjoy swimming and we sure aren't investing anything, but we go watch him anyway.  I have a granddaughter who was very involved in dance when she was younger.  Her parents spent a small fortune on that.  We even spent money going to watch her perform. Not once any talk about an investment.

What is wrong with people simply enjoying or wanting to watch their kids perform?  There are so many worse ways to spend your money than spending time with your kids while they are doing something they enjoy.

Now if someone is looking at everything as an investment why buy a glove, bat or other equipment until you know there is a good reason for spending that money.  

There are other benefits in playing baseball and being part of a team besides the college scholarship.  If that stuff doesn't count and the player has no talent, there's nothing wrong with keeping your money for something more productive.  But those are all individual decisions IMO.

FoxDad posted:

To RJM's point:

In some cases where the kid is not so athletic, it might be better to sock away the money in a "college fund" than to spend the money on lessons, camps, showcases, etc.

Far more academic money available (scholarships, etc) than athletic money.We probably spent $5,000 or so on travel team expenses, hotels, food, gas over the 7 years he played travel ball. Not sure how much we actually spent - I never kept track.  In the end he netted a $9,000 athletic scholarship from a D2 after playing JuCo ball.  So fortunately we came out ahead.One can easily spend more chasing an athletic scholarship than what it is worth.  You make your choice and pay the money (or not).

I sucked at baseball as a kid (at least compared to kids now a days).  I wish my dad had got me lessons (if such things existed back then).  Just so I would have had a chance at a few more hits.  Not for college, not for anything other than to "be a hitter", if only for a couple games.  Didn't you guys watch Field of Dreams?  

I would have been so proud to hear "There goes Go44dad, he got a hit last night"

(that's a take off on the "There goes Ted Williams, the greatest hitter that ever lived.")

PG - so long as the child is enjoying and wants to play and take lessons, I have no issue.  By all means, spend the money if that is what you want to do. 

Yes, it's not all about chasing a college scholarship.   But when we read of 6U tournament teams and some parents putting pressure to "win" and "perform" over team work and having fun, it begins to make me wonder.

But (there's always a "but"), if the parent is putting undue pressure to succeed and the kid is not having "fun" then maybe it's time to step back, reevaluate and decide why you are doing this.

GO44DAD - I sucked at baseball too.  I tried out for JV and got cut. I ended up making the football team though.  My fielding was good, but I just couldn't consistently hit the ball.  If there were lessons (35 years ago) I doubt my parents could have afforded them.  At the time the priority was getting us (my sister and I) through HS, keeping a roof over our heads and food on the table.  I didn't even think about college until my junior year - ended up enlisting in the Army towards the end of my senior year (delayed entry).

I was an assistant coach on my kids teams that did the travel thing.  We played in about a 200 mile radius and went to Cooperstown and Disney as vacations centered on baseball.  They had some talent and were good players but we never did it to be DI prospects or pro players.

I did it because they liked the experiences and I loved watching them play.  Over 10 years I probably spent 5,000 hours of my life and $20K with 2 of them playing this way.  It was worth every penny and every moment.  I have never regretted any of it, for I am convinced that when I die - the last memories I will have before my dying breath will be those boys playing ball...or at least I hope so. 

Alright - enough about the well adjusted college kids who played travel ball since they were 6yo.  I truly believe there are horror stories about similar kids who "showed promise" at 6yo (could either throw the ball to the first baseman or could stand on first base and catch) only to get run thru the ringer and wash out before high school.  Travel ball and lessons are not inherently bad - they are bad under the wrong circumstances.  As for travel ball, when entire communities basically have to play travel ball to continue playing reasonably competitive baseball - all because of some mass migration away from the park - that is bad.  When little Johnny has to take lessons so he can make some low rung travel ball team - and not spend a few fun years at the park developing - that is bad.  The idea that travel ball is a reasonable replacement for park ball is a pathetic idea.  Used to be only the absolute worst park ball kid got left behind - and sometimes actually made a remarkable reappearance a year or two later.  These days, kids in elementary school playing AAA make sure the lower rung kids (AA) know their place.  As for lessons, I've already addressed that issue - they are good when used in moderation and at the appropriate times.

I was horrible at baseball as a young kid.  Lessons would not have done any good.  I simply needed a few more years to run around and at some point picked up a tennis racket and finally developed some hand/eye coordination.  While 6u travel ball may be fun (the thought sends shivers down my spine), I would like to hear some timetables as to when a kid that "shows promise" should be provided additional opportunities outside of the park.  I really don't think a 10yo will learn much nuanced fielding or hitting that he cant's wait on until he's 13 or 14 and a little more grown up.  I am so thankful for our local park and the coaches (we are blessed in having two great coaches).  The park is doing all it can to retain talent and actually did away with All Stars in favor of some very local travel ball "light" - seems like a decent balance.  I will say that last year (then a 9yo) did not have the level of coaching he has this year and has gotten significantly more reps.  He knows how to field the ball.  He knows how to throw.  He is pretty good in game situations.  He just needs about 20,000 more reps under a decent watchful eye - that is how he will further develop over the next year or two.

I think most would say there is no reason 6 year olds need to travel out of town to play.  But what is that perfect age for expanding to better competition and improving?  When do dads that love the game, or have played it, start teaching their kids how to do things?

IMO the best blend is when an area has many levels of baseball available.  Everything from beginner to local rec to travel.  I think it is important to separate the more talented and more physical kids from those that are just beginning.  It provides more fun for all the kids, they all have a chance to get better, and it makes the game much safer.  

I do know there are parts of the country where everything is Travel Ball and the local rec leagues hardly exist.  That is really too bad.  Everyone should have the opportunity to experience and enjoy baseball.  You shouldn't have to be a skilled player to participate or fall in love with the game.  Where we live there are plenty of opportunities, but I wish there were even more.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

These days, kids in elementary school playing AAA make sure the lower rung kids (AA) know their place.  

This made me laugh. Seriously, when 2019Son was in third and fourth grade there were a couple kids he went to school with (but who were in a different little league) who told him that he couldn't be any good "because he didn't play travel ball." It made me laugh then, and you just reminded me of it.

Went back & checked 2018's Little League rosters. All three of the kids who left for 10U travel ball got cut by the high school program. 3 of the 4 kids who left for 11U got cut, and 1 of the 2 who left for 12 U got cut. So we had nine kids that 2018 played with between tee ball & majors that left for "greener pastures", and only two of them are playing in the high school program as sophomores. 2018 didn't start travel ball until he was 13 (same with about ten of his HS teammates) and that whole group has turned out just fine.

Unfortunately 2018's Little League has went from the 450 kids of his era down to under 300 kids today. Not necessarily because of travel ball - many families have left for Pony so they can play more of a "real" game with leadoffs, pickoffs, bigger fields, etc. 

2019Dad posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

These days, kids in elementary school playing AAA make sure the lower rung kids (AA) know their place.  

This made me laugh. Seriously, when 2019Son was in third and fourth grade there were a couple kids he went to school with (but who were in a different little league) who told him that he couldn't be any good "because he didn't play travel ball." It made me laugh then, and you just reminded me of it.

We see this all the time...... Travel Ball Snobbery.   Two travel ball teams folded in our park this year - both were 11u.  They came back into the park rec program and thought they would dominate.  I think they found otherwise.

I think it varies on where you are.  If you are in a league that has 300 kids in Coach Pitch at age 8 and it has the best 30 players drained out at age 9 and loses half of the rest at age 10 and you are left with 150 kids at age 11 the level of baseball suffers.

This does not mean that you cannot have quality players emerge they will.  But the overall level of competition (and coaching) tend to suffer.  We went back with our kids at 11 and beat the 12U all stars.  My son noted above as a 5 year old was the lead off hitter.  He was all of 5'1" and 85 lbs and as he dug in the box the entire outfield moved up 4/5 steps.  He promptly took an outside pitch 50 feet over the left fielders head about 240 feet from the batters box and rolled into 3rd.  I was in the 1st base coaching box and heard the guy coaching the other team say - if the rest of them swing like that it will be a long day.  My kid probably had played 200 more games against tougher competition and practiced another 1,500 hours over 3 years than most of those kids on the 12U all star team. 

In the end he ended up being 5'7" 135 lbs and made the baseball team but decided baseball was too boring and decided to play lacrosse instead.  He found the transition real easy since catching a ball in a net was an easier skill than hitting 80+MPH pitching.  All the lacrosse parents wanted to know how he got so good at it.  They weren't very happy when I said baseball is harder than lacrosse and he taught himself in a few weeks with his friends in the street in front of the house.

We'll never know how good he could have been in lacrosse since he never played travel.....

I would like to see the dads of preteens who know baseball work to make the rec program better rather than run away from it. It's what we did in our LL. There was some criticism the program was too competitive. It wasn't that the coaches were insane. The quality of ball was good. A few parents took their kids to an independent league they perceived to have less pressure on the players. The reality was the quality of play was poor.

Our league was so much fun and the food so good families hung out at the park on nights they didn't have games. The kids ultimately ended up playing whiffle ball or some other mayhem behind the outfield fence.

We had 11u and 12u travel teams in a AA Sunday DH league running concurrently with the LL. The teams were prospective all stars from our league. Real travel (best players rather than community) started at 13u. No one was behind learning the game.

This has been a fascinating discussion with many entrenched perspectives regarding the purpose of youth sports and the best way to accomplish that purpose.  First let me identify why I believe youth sports are valuable in training up young people.

1. Success at sports regardless of talent improves with work.  Provided a young person is taught the correct method for throwing a baseball they will improve with repetition.  They may never throw 80 or 90 or 100 mph but they will improve and that lesson will help them in life.
2. You learn to fail a LOT in baseball.  When the best of the best succeed between 35% and 40% when batting young people will need to learn to control their emotions and never let failure become a barrier to future success.  This again is a life lesson.
3. You become part of something bigger than yourself.  Most great accomplishments in life, family, community or corporation require you to commit to something where you will be a part of the accomplishment.  Baseball teaches that lesson.

I could probably have another 10 reasons but you get the point.  So how do you best accomplish this for your children.

• Make sure they play in a situation where instruction is fundamentally sound
• For players under 12 allow them to play in talent appropriate situations.  This might be rec leagues it might be local or regional travel but the idea is that while you are still learning the fundamentals you need some success to keep you coming out
• Between 11 and 13 try to define with your child what your individual objectives for baseball are.  As a father of 5 boys I have learned that not everyone of them will have the same goals that I do (That is my learning moment).  If at 11 your goal is to play high school varsity baseball you might want to consider playing in a league that uses a slightly larger field (54' / 70' etc.) and allows live stealing.  But still do not jump beyond your capabilities, stretch your competition but if you are a solid player locally and want to play HS playing for an elite regional travel team may put you on the bench where your progress is stopped. 
• 13-14 If you want to play varsity ball consider moving to the 60'6" / 90' diamond with a skill appropriate team.  If you love baseball find a way to play with your friends whether it is rec travel or sandlot.

I write all of this to say their are no right or wrong answers to the question of local / travel what age / when is too early, when is too late.  I, like many posters have seen talented kids burn out and late bloomers sit the bench and then be key contributors at older ages.  I have seen rec players compete in HS varsity and I have seen travel players fail to make the team.  On average if you have received good instruction (that might define where you need to play) played competitively and know what you want in your baseball experience there will be a place for you.

Make sure your children learn the fundamentals, let them have fun, stretch their competition but don't drive them to failure and your baseball experience can be powerful and positive for life. 

My perspective on this is different than most for multiple reasons. I don't care if the kid is 8 or 18. If he is not having fun, he needs to do something else.  If you care more about how your son plays than he does, there is a problem and it is not with your son.  The last statement is one I have to constantly remind myself with my 11yo daughter's endeavors. 

D8

That says it all!

When my son was 6 thru about 12/13, our local "rec" league was pretty good baseball, though my son did play travel at the same time.  Small town, 25-30 boys per grade.  3rd thru 5th played together (3 teams total), then 1 team at 6th grade, as kids dropped off.  We had 3 or 4 years worth of kids that had 4 to 5 really solid players in each grade.  Put 4 or 5 good kids on a team of 12 and we had some really competitive games.  I will say also that some of it was the fact that we had some good coaches.  Fast forward a couple years...my son was in HS....the level of ability of the coaches dropped significantly and the baseball did the same.  I would guess that in most areas, rec ball would go in cycles due to the kids....just like a HS team will do the same.  As RJM said, the play level at Rec has as much to do with the coaches and what they are teaching or able to teach as it does the kids. 

As a side note that applies everywhere I assume, when it came to time to choose the new 3rd graders each spring, if two kids were tied talent wise, we always went to the "hottest mom" tiebreaker

As with seemingly (at least to me) all questions in regards to kids the answers to lessons vs no lessons, rec ball vs travel ball, whatever other examples is simply it depends on the kids. 

Some kids do great with their dad's being the only ones who every really worked with them on the game outside of practice and games.  I grew up playing with a kid who was like that, his dad (who was my coach the first two years I played baseball) really knew his stuff and the kid was a heck of a player, he ended up at a D2 school (because he was really lazy) where he came pretty close to setting the D2 record for RBIs in a year (he had at least 100 entering the NCAA tournament, don't remember where he ended up).

I on the other hand needed a voice other than my dad when he came to baseball by the time I was 12ish.  We didn't communicate well and it ultimately played a large part in me quitting the game the summer after my freshman year of high school.  Taking lessons (not even for any improvement that may have come from them) I think would have helped me out a lot just to hear things from someone different.

In terms of rec ball vs travel ball.  I would have killed to have the opportunity to play travel ball as a kid, it just didn't really exist when I was growing up.  The very few options that were available were cost and time prohibitive (45+ minute trip just for travel to practices).  Rec ball for me was playing the same kids year after year (with the exception of all stars) never really having to work on my weaknesses because while I wasn't really good or anything I was good enough to get by and be one of the better players.  Even during all stars despite playing against a few future draft picks (and maybe even one or two current big leaguers) and a number of guys who went on to play in college) there still wasn't enough time to really make an assessment of where I stood as a player.

The main issue with rec ball in my area is that it started April 12 and ends May 13. This is the 11-12 yo league. Then the tournament starts and you have a week built in for rainouts. Once school is out, vacations season starts, so rec has to be finished by the first week of June. A typical team will start practicing for two weeks at the first of April. So, it's 2 months of baseball start to finish. 10 games plus dbl elimination tournament. 12-15 games max.

Stafford posted:

The main issue with rec ball in my area is that it started April 12 and ends May 13. This is the 11-12 yo league. Then the tournament starts and you have a week built in for rainouts. Once school is out, vacations season starts, so rec has to be finished by the first week of June. A typical team will start practicing for two weeks at the first of April. So, it's 2 months of baseball start to finish. 10 games plus dbl elimination tournament. 12-15 games max.

Given the amount of baseball a kid can play once they get into high school and summer ball only playing 15 games at 11-12 is a good thing.   My son played travel at 12, 13, and then 16U.   I'm now wondering if 12 was probably too young to start when you factor in about 45-50 games during the summer.   Before that it was about 15 games and then no more baseball.  Somehow he survived.