The problem with HS Drug Testing

quote:

I dont believe in turning our rights over to the government.But if one drunk driver or drug induced human being plows into a bus full of student athletes and kills them because they were intoxicated or on drugs how do you tell me the cost of that?if they kill innocent people ?

That's not what we're talking about, is it?

"whether it violates rights or not" I agree, that's what we're talking about. It will happen, drug testing for all is on the horizon. I just don't think it's right. It's just another step in handing over all our rights - and our children's.

This argument of rights is a cantankerous subject and not one much suited for this board. This is actually something I love about HSBBW, the fact that political ideology is not generally brought into the discussion. I will keep it out from here on out.

It amazes me that there are some who would rather protect a "childs" civil rights than their health.
This not like the MLB or NFL and your testing because of the cheating factor. These are kids and they are being tested for their health. Most adults have been taught that these things are bad for you and elect to do them anyway just to get a leg up. Most kids have been taught this as well, but they are teenagers who are facing peer pressure among other things. Regardless of testing or not, there are gonna be some who still try them. If that child is penalized, maybe they or someone else will think twice about using these drugs. If it saves mine or your childs health or even life, then its been well worth the civil rights of a child.

I think they have more of a right to be healthy and alive than a right to not be tested.

When your child goes for a job that requires a drug test in order to be considered for the job what will you advise him? Dont do it son they have no right!

Whats the difference in having to be drug screened for employment and being drug screened in order to play on the sports team?

When or if your son plays college baseball and the NCAA requires him to be tested are you going to tell him not to take the test? Whats the difference?

I dont like having to take off my shoes at the airport and being treated like a terrorist but I understand why its done. The good outweighs the bad.

If drug testing comes into play and you dont like it dont play. Or work to change the rules in place. Thats your right. I dont like to be stopped at a license check at night but if it gets a drunk off the road that might of otherwise killed someone I can deal with that.

If drug testing catches a kid and forces him to have to get help Im all for that as well. We all are never going to agree on this subject. Thats fine. We all have our right to believe in what we want to believe in. I respect all points of view. I believe like you that its my job to raise my kids. But I also know that some parents dont do it and some kids dont have parents. So someone has to do it for them. And the fact is there are alot of great parents out there that do a great job raising their kids and things still go very very wrong.

Lets agree to disagree but thats the bottom line we are not going to agree. Good night everyone!

quote:

Originally posted by LLorton:
Bulldog19 said:If the individual you're referring to is using something that is ILLEGAL, then I don't feel sorry for him or her.

To me, this is not a matter of giving up rights. This is a matter of the athlete proving he or she is eligible to participate in an athletic even that is strictly VOLUNTARY.
______________________________________________________

IMO for me it is a medical matter, not a legal one. Overdosing, use of PED, and RAD's are pharmaceuticals that are controlled substances developed and injested by the individual to alter the "physical" senses in some form or fashon.

Why law enforcement is envolved with "drugs" escapes my cognitive reasoning ability since there isn't a "cop" on the beat that knows what to do about an overdose even if you handed him the instruction manual?

This is all misplaced authoritarianism that goes to societal "big brotherism"

It's time to put some sanity back into our society, "PROHIBITION" didn't work in the 20's and 30's and it won't work now. This is nothing more than the "lawyer, full employment act".

The stupidity is in the fact that we continue to do the same thing over and over again and expect to get different results; Albert Einstein called that the definition of "INSANITY"

IMHO it is better to develope programs that are controlled and administored by the medical profession in conjunction with reasonable goals that are wrapped around the "true" understanding of human nature based upon human behavior.
JMO

I disagree about it not being a 'legal' problem. In this country there are things that are illegal. The legislature and the executive branches of the federal government have ruled certain things to be not allowed. The judicial branch has ruled that those laws fit with the Constitution. Who gives these branches the ability to do this? Well, citizens over the age of 18 in the United States of America empower the representatives, Senators, and the President to make these decisions.

I agree Prohibition didn't work then and it won't work now. Why won't it work now? Because our society has come to a point where the law means NOTHING. If a person disagrees with a particular law, he doesn't obey it. If a 16 year old wants to drink, he's going to drink! And from what I've seen on various message boards, that is OKAY.

LL, some of these are pharmaceuticals and some of them are enhancers. Some leagues have banned enhancers. Perfectly within their rights. They don't want it so they ban them. With drug testing, these leagues are taking the steps to make sure that their policies are followed. If a particular athlete does not like the policies, don't play!

How about this-

Take your child to your family doctor and have him administer the test paid by your insurance. If he/she tests positive, you can have him retested or you can have your child face the penalty. It's all about the health of our kids. Not civil rights, not the school, and not the government.

I have read the entire thread. and although I understand peoples rights, why are they drug testing in the beginning what is the reason for it? theyre not just going to do it for the sake of doing it. it is to serve a purpose.They believe it might save someones life. its not only for cheating in sports, yes this is the hs baseball web but the ramifications go beyond PEDs. as a poster said in the beginning of this thread you have too separate the two PEds and recreational drugs. two different things. regardless both are dangerous and none of us on this site want to see our kids get involved with the use of either. this thread is going in cirles and no poing in continuing. Good night to all

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
How indepth is testing at the collegiate level?

I'll ask again!

In case your question wasn't answered.
At son's school the school tested the entire team at one time the NCAA tests randomly. The school can also test randomly.
Testing positive has different ramifications if it was a school test or an NCAA test. Most NCAA tests are done during championship post season. In college you sign a paper stating that you understand testing procedures and a right of refusal is no play.

I am not sure about how I feel about this, but I like the new random testing procedure in Florida. I do feel that while my kids are living in my home, I have rights as a parent and they do as minors, but if this is primarily to save a life, I am 100% for it.

BTW, random testing is a procedure based on a certain psychology. You don't want to be the one randomly tested and caught, so you might think twice about the consequences which is usually suspension. For many of our youth, it's more about the embarrassment of getting caught and being suspended rather than teh fact that he might be killing him/her self.

If random testing makes someone think twice, it's a positive step in the right direction.

Too bad MLB and the PA didn't think of this.

Maybe this may cross that fine line of what is legally right and wrong, but think about this. You have no way of knowing what your son or daughter does, you think that you do, but you don't. I'd rather find out and deal with it before we have real problems.

JMO.

Son's college has random drug testing for the entire school.

Rights, Rights, Rights...you do not have the right to take illegal drugs. You do not have the right to drink alcohol when you're under the age of 21.

You do not have the right to sit next to my kids in school wasted.

My son's high school (private) has random drug testing for the entire student body and, in fact, just expelled a kid recently.

I'm all for it. And my son knows he has a lot more to worry about than getting expelled if he gets caught doing ANYTHING.

Repeating this quote from CPLZ:

quote:

Being for the kids does not mean we should empower schools, school districts or administrators with powers that belong in the investigative branch of the judicial system. What has happened at schools today is the same political land grab that befalls all government entities. It gets some powers, then it wants more powers. Obstensibly, "for the good of the kids".

Evidence supporting this penchant for political land grab over the topic of drug testing athletes (and eventually all citizens - [my editorial comment]) was provided by Rep. Stephen Lynch in our U.S. Congress yesterday when he asked Bud Selig and Donald Fehr "Even though there is no blood test for HGH now, why don't you gather that blood now and test it retroactively?" OMG! Is this the level of governmental authority under which you all want to live? Is this the picture you have for regulating HS athletics, music programs, physics robotics teams, debate teams, Future Farmers of America and 4H teams? Once the drug testing plans that you all advocate are implemented state-wide or nationally, you must know that the authorities in government will attempt to extend those tests into other areas of your lives. This pattern is documented over and over again. When do we as individuals begin to accept the personal responsibility for decisions we make, and for guiding the decisions your children make? Government cannot raise our families better than we can. Government cannot prevent drug abuse by our children better than we can.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
And my son knows he has a lot more to worry about than getting expelled if he gets caught doing ANYTHING.

My daughter, who is 9 years older than son gave him good advice early on, if you get in trouble, your worst fear should be facing mom and dad.

This issue behooves everyone; coaches, parents, teachers, administrators, and most of all, the athlete to educate themselves about steroid use.

For example;

A 2003 Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association study indicated that more than 1 million adolescents between the ages of 12 and 17 had taken potentially dangerous performance-enhancing supplements and drugs.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has indicated that illegal steroid use among high school students has more than doubled in the last decade from 2.7 percent in 1991 to 6.1 percent in 2003.

A 2004 study conducted by the American College of Sports Medicine found that more than one out of every 10 students in the United States will have used steroids by 2010.

Dealing with young people who participate in interscholastic athletics poses several issues. These athletes are at a stage in their lives when they feel immortal, and this increases their susceptibility to the siren call of performance enhancement. At stake is the young athlete who desires to excel at the “next” level, and who generally does not possess the experience, knowledge or treatment capabilities to address the potential immediate or future health risks.

Do Kid's Really Use Steroids?

The public answer to this question is always a resounding “yes”, and depending on the source, you might be inclined to think that every 6th through 12th grader can bench press 225lbs. This is however far from the truth, the benching that is. According to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance—United States, the percentage of students who reported lifetime steroid use increased during 1991--2003 (2.7%--6.1%) and then decreased during 2003--2005 (6.1%--4.0%). Although the declining trend is somewhat comforting, and the figures don’t seem staggering, I assure you they are both misleading. Let’s crunch the numbers shall we? The up to minute U.S. Census Bureau reports a total population of just over 301 million people, of which the National Center For Education Statistics estimates 16.5 million or 5.4% are public and private school children between 9th and 12th grade. Using the CDC’s 4% current lifetime user’s stat, we get an estimated 660,000 students (14 to 17 years of age) who’ve admitted to steroid use as of the year 2005. But that’s just the beginning, because as any researcher worth his paycheck will tell you, self-reports are notoriously underrepresented. Sadder still is the fact that our 4% figure though reported in 2006 only used data through early 2005, which was just prior to the many recent professional sports scandals and subsequent resurgence of steroid popularity. So what do all these numbers and dates mean? Simply put, “The use of steroids among children is a REALLY BIG PROBLEM!”

“Citius, Altius, Fortius” (“Swifter, Higher, Stronger”) ~ motto of the Olympic Movement

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2005/steroids/index.html

http://www.steroidabuse.com/steroid-statistics.html

http://www.aap.org/family/steroids.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4556250/

http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVol12N4/steroid.html

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/2005-05-04-hs-steroids-cover_x.htm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/11/02/MNGGG2OIKE1.DTL

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/2005-06-08-sports-...teroids-report_x.htm

http://www.gdcada.org/statistics/steroids.htm

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/HSYouthtrends.html

http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/indicators/92SteroidUse.cfm

http://www.geocities.com/bcjungmph/salemme.pdf

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenumbers/2007/12/teens-and-stero.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w8557174k4818g04/

http://www.ianabolicsteroids.com/steroid-statistics.htm

http://www.stthomas.edu/bmag/2007/spring/feature_4.html

http://www.daanj.org/article.php?id=196

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/meid:258837

http://www.sunysb.edu/surveys/HPAOct05_other.htm

quote:

and the poster that said the no tolerance policy invades our rights??? NO TOLERANCE for drugs in school, how does that effect our rights, when kids go to school they need to be safe from others who are violating the rules.

The poster used the term "zero tolerance." Zero tolerance is a policy with automatic rules, procedures and penalties attached without stopping to pause, investigate, reflect and make a decision. Zero tolerance is a copout for those afraid to make decisions and stand by them. No tolerance is something completely different.

Smokey,
Testing the student athlete for performance enhancing drugs is an appropriate response to the problem.

Testing the student athlete only, and not the student population at large, for a broad spectrum of drugs that have no relevance to sports is overstepping.

That would be the equivilant of having a policy of drug testing everyone at an airport that gets on a plane under the auspice that, we have them here anyway, let's see if we can catch them at something.

We spend our whole lives trying to teach our kids to be fair and even handed. Some of our kids and predecessors go to war and die to preserve our liberty and freedom through preservation of our rights. Is the message we send them...be fair and do the right thing, but only if it meets the ends you desire?

Either we are fair or we're not, it's a yes or no question.

I'm not trying to offend any of you by what I am about to say because I have no doubt that you do a great job of rasing your kids. My point is when talking about society you can't go with the outlook of "I want to raise my kid because I will do a good job" or "I do teach my kids at home what is right and wrong". I have complete faith that you all do a great job. The problem comes from a large number of parents don't do a good job of raising their kid.

The best way to become a good parent is to be raised by good parents. You learn to become a good parent by modeling the things you need to do. Maybe you might find a parent who does a great job in spite of their upbringing but it's rare.

Another thing - the government is not taking the choice out of my hands of whether to drug test or not. The government is testing because I am telling them to. I am using my voice as a citizen who empowers my government to do this. I'm not giving up power to make this decision - I'm using my power to tell my government that I want them to test. I want my government to get these kids who are drunk, high, hungover, some help. I want my government to let me be able to go into a classroom and be able to teach without having to fight against Johnny who's hungover. I want my government to be able to protect the people driving on the roads and streets, the business owners who are robbed for crack money, the good kids who are exposed to this atmosphere, among others.

If I feel that the goal has been achieved then I am going to tell my government to stop testing. They have to do that because I have the power. If I feel the government is overstepping the power I gave them I will put them in their place.

I can do this because this is what the majority wants. If I am not in the majority then I try to convince people to change the majority.

It's not about me - it's about what we as a country want to do. Our government works because we make it work.

No offense but our soldiers died to give us this forum to discuss in a mature manner, to give us the ability to tell our government what to do and the ability for the minority to try and become the majority.

CPLZ,

I am still not following your logic (war, liberty, freedom, rights, et al) and I am not “getting” the airport analogy. I see nothing wrong with “testing the student athlete only, and not the student population at large, for a broad spectrum of drugs that have no relevance to sports”. Go ahead… test the athlete only for any banded substance. Test for steroids. Test for pot. Test for cocaine. Test for heroine. Test for any controlled/illegal substances. PERIOD!

My son’s high school (now his alma mater) requires the student athlete and parent(s) (or guardian(s)) to read a 10 page “Student Athletic Handbook”, sign a “Athletic Conduct Agreement” agreeing to adhere to it, and understand that this Athletic Code of Conduct is in effect 24/7/365.

I will not bore this discussion with all of it… however; one part goes like this…

“A student-athlete found in violation of the Athletic Code of Conduct will receive consequences up to and including dismissal from the team. Such violations include, but not limited to: Use or possession of alcohol, tobacco products and/or controlled/illegal substances, Being in the presents at a party or activity where illegal drugs or alcohol are available”.

Heck you can get punished just from being at a party where “illegal drugs and alcohol are available”. In fact, several star varsity athletes were recently suspended for the first several weeks of the season because they were too stupid to stay out pictures taken at a party where…“illegal drugs and alcohol are available”. These pictures anonymously wound up in the hands of an administrator at this HS. It’s not unfair, it’s stupid. It’s unfair to the coach and team that these kids did not live up to their “signed” agreement with the school.

Where is the accountability? Remember, the “Just Say No” anti-drug campaign didn’t work either. I have tried to teach my children that life is not always fair, it’s not, and it sometime really sucks, however, do the right thing anyway (at least while you live under my roof)… character counts.

“Life is not fair; get used to it.” ~ Bill Gates

Playing HS or college ball is not a right---it is something the player earns on merit--in doig so there will be rules that need to be obeyed--if you don't like the rules then don't go out for the team.

I also wonder why those that rant about rights violations are those who rant and rave about drug use in our society---you cannot have it both ways folks !! You either let drug use run wild or you do something to stem their use--if stemming the use means sacrifices, giving up some supposed rights then so be it

Smokey,
There are several different levels of issues here.

1. Should we drug test;
A. The whole student population
B. Just Athletes
2. What do we drug test for
A. Just student athletes
a. For PED's
b. For the broad spectrum of illegal drugs
B. The whole student population for the broad spectrum of illegal drugs

3. Who administers the tests
A. Police
B. School Administrators

And then you introduced a new topic that wasn't included in this discussion previously.

4. Should the school have the right to conduct investigations and hand down punishments to students because of their participation or behavior at events that have nothing to do with the school or the school district?

I can't help that you don't get where I'm coming from or my airport analogy, perhaps I'm not good at explaining myself.

Saying that life isn't fair is a cop out to turn your back on injustice and do nothing about it. As a civilized society, we should strive for equality and fairness. Sure, sometimes situations come up that aren't fair and there's nothing we can do about that at the particular time. But that isn't cart blanche to be apathetic.


Coach2709,
No worries here, I'm not offended by your debate of the subject, your points are well considered.

In spite of your assertations, our country is not majority rules. There are laws that constrain those ideals. Just because the majority wants something, doesn't mean they can legally have it. In spite of that, sometimes illegal acts are condoned by our courts because they wrongfully invoke "the greater good", which is not a power our constitution empowers them with.

We do not have control of government and the laws it passes. We can have some sway, but there really is not much accountability. Our government has a history of passing laws that the majority of people disagree with.

When some people, whether sarcastically or directly, scoff at our rights as citizens as something that can be manipulated or tossed aside, that is scary. Our freedoms, created by our rights, are the only things that give our country worth.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Playing HS or college ball is not a right---it is something the player earns on merit--in doig so there will be rules that need to be obeyed--if you don't like the rules then don't go out for the team.

Colleges and universities do not test the general population, but they do test student athletes. I haven't heard one person complain about that, why would testing athletes in HS be any different?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Playing HS or college ball is not a right---it is something the player earns on merit--in doig so there will be rules that need to be obeyed--if you don't like the rules then don't go out for the team.

Colleges and universities do not test the general population, but they do test student athletes. I haven't heard one person complain about that, why would testing athletes in HS be any different?

Because the person is then an emancipated adult, not a child. There is a profound difference.

We are also talking about a situation in college that involves business and money, a whole different structure and different working model. There is no "right" to education at that level, where that right and even requirement does exist for the HS student. The student can elect not to go to college, but until the age of consent, does not have that right in HS.

quote:

by coach2709: Another thing - the government is not taking the choice out of my hands of whether to drug test or not. The government is testing because I am telling them to.

This is our major source of disagreement. Government does few things well. Once in control of a program like this, government will attempt to extend its influence into other parts of our lives.

I'm confident that we agree one central issue; I don't favor drug use for recreational experiences or athletic enhancement. But it is a mistake to offer government the privilege of performing invasive tests on its citizenry.

What would men like John Adams or Thomas Jefferson say about a government performing blood or urine tests on its free citizens? Times change, principles do not.

Was the steroid problem prevalent in the times of Adams and Jefferson ?---I do not think so--if it were perhaps their principles would have been different

Agree with all those who believe health is the “major” concern.

Think we get too caught up in the cheating aspect and to me that is a ways down the list as far as importance goes.

Also think the major problem is not with professional athletes, but with the younger population. The professional athletes are a problem because so often they lead the way.

The reason all this has to be addressed and stopped is because of the youth. It's bad across the board, but most dangerous to young people. That includes all drugs, not just performance enhancers. In fact, some of the other drugs are even more dangerous. Professional athletes have the resources to know what and how much to take. Amateur athletes do not have professional resources to give them this information. Thus it becomes even "more" dangerous at the younger ages.

I like to drink beer. I have no idea why alcohol is legal, it kills more young people than anything else. I know it's illegal for those younger people, but lets face it, it's all over the place and generally accepted by adults. Adult deaths I guess isn't enough.

All over the country there are busineeses converting to "No Smoking Allowed". Tobacco has killed millions yet, be darned, it is legal. It's an economic thing. The government fights the problem by increasing tax on tobacco. I'm pretty stupid, and can't understand. what gives here? Known Killers... Don't need anymore studies... Alcohol and tobacco have been proven killers... Yet they are Legal!

So I don't neccessarily buy the "It's illegal" reason either. Cheating and being illegal are good reasons, but the major reason for doing what's neccessary is health, not record breaking.

I would think some type of drug testing at the younger ages is even more important than testing adults in professional sports. I understand the stop it at the top theory, but more importantly would like to "nip it in the bud".

Just testing athletes alone for PEDs would be skirting the entire issue IMO. I want to know if our children (athletes or not) are using crack, cocaine, smoking pot, drinking alcohol, taking heroin, smoking tobacco, etc. We have a chance to deal with what we know.

Maybe parents think they can do this without help. But does everyone know who your children look up to and mingle with? It would be nice to know what they are doing too.

I'm not buying the cost of testing. The government could simply raise taxes even more on Tobbaco and Alcohol and use all that money to start a government funded program at every middle school and high school in the country. It would be worth it IMO.

This still leaves one great big problem... Our Rights! This really is a big issue. More than anything we cherish our freedom. Don't know how to deal with that. Maybe we do it like drunk driving tests. If you weave, you’re likely to get tested. If there is suspicion, you are tested. Maybe it is a police type thing, funded as a government task force. Still I think there would be problems dealing with rights.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Playing HS or college ball is not a right---it is something the player earns on merit--in doig so there will be rules that need to be obeyed--if you don't like the rules then don't go out for the team.

Colleges and universities do not test the general population, but they do test student athletes. I haven't heard one person complain about that, why would testing athletes in HS be any different?

Because the person is then an emancipated adult, not a child. There is a profound difference.

We are also talking about a situation in college that involves business and money, a whole different structure and different working model. There is no "right" to education at that level, where that right and even requirement does exist for the HS student. The student can elect not to go to college, but until the age of consent, does not have that right in HS.

But that student who is under of the age of 18 as you bring up, does have the opportunity to choose to play a sport! Now, I'm all for random drug testing for all students, but I'm also realistic in that doing so is not likely because it would be challenged in the court system. Testing student-athletes, on the other hand, I do not believe has a leg to stand on in the court system.

Young people have a RIGHT to an EDUCATION. Many young people have the PRIVILAGE of PLAYING SPORTS. There's a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
How about this-

Take your child to your family doctor and have him administer the test paid by your insurance. If he/she tests positive, you can have him retested or you can have your child face the penalty. It's all about the health of our kids. Not civil rights, not the school, and not the government.

See no problem.

And for those who keep using the big brother (GOV) argument, give it a rest.

PG,
Really good post and most of the things you expressed I agree with.

CPLZ, good points but this is how I see it.
I told my kids that as kids, they didn't always have the right to do as they pleased regardless of their argument. When they became legal adults then they had the right to make their choices and face teh consequences. I never had a problem with anyone telling my kids what they could or couldn't do so long as it didn't hurt them physically . I see a lot of issues today because parents resent anyone telling their kids what to do and that means ANYTHING. I remember my son got in trouble in his HS chemistry class for being rude and not following the teachers directions. I got a phone call and told the teacher I would make sure it never happened again. He was stunned! I asked why, he said that most parents would have said to him, you probably deserved it! That was 7 years ago, I hear from my friends who are HS teachers it's much worse.

BTW, because my son or daughter goes off to college, doesn't emancipate them. They still have many rules to follow wherever they go.

There will always be issues regarding our rights. Heck I know people that can't stand that seat belt law, but it has been a proven factor that seatbelts save lives. So that ticket you get for not wearing your belt, has it's upside. I kind of look at this drug testing for youngsters the same way. Forget about the cheating, if it saves a life, one life, than it's worth it to give up something, even if that something means taking away a bit of your freedom.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

There will always be issues regarding our rights. Heck I know people that can't stand that seat belt law, but it has been a proven factor that seatbelts save lives. So that ticket you get for not wearing your belt, has it's upside. I kind of look at this drug testing for youngsters the same way. Forget about the cheating, if it saves a life, one life, than it's worth it to give up something, even if that something means taking away a bit of your freedom.

JMO.

TPM,
It sounds like I am much the same as you when it comes to dealing with teachers and others handling my kids.

Your seatbelt analogy is perfect for this discussion as it relates to government intrusion into personal lives, let me provide an alternative to that.

The seatbelt law is a law that protects me from me. I do no direct harm to others by not wearing it (the ancillary effects of death and losing a provider, etc, are not direct). Let's contrast that with the non-smoking laws also popular these days. A non smoking law protects me from you. Your smoke can directly injure me, therefore the law is protective.

Your argument for the seatbelt law, being one of saving lives and actually the larger argument, of causing financial burden on society is spot on. The problem with it, is that the law has taken a right of decision, where no direct harm is befallen, and placed a value on that right...this time a dollar value. This same argument could be made for...let's say, a sunscreen law. Deaths occur and there is a financial burden placed upon society by people who are reckless enough not to wear sunscreen and hats, therefore, because the criteria is now, "for ones own good and the financial protection of society", that law seems to pass muster an fit...let's pass it.

The relinquishing of rights is insidious because of the slippery slope that relinquishment feeds on. 20 years ago a seat belt law, based on the exact same criteria, would have been laughed out of the legislature. These days, because we have allowed encrochment on our rights, "for the good of...(insert cause here)", we have become numb to the concept, and this goes to what Coach2709 was trying to point out...it's our fault and we should do something about it.

We have taken our rights for granted and allowed government and school district to exceed the authorities it should be bestowed with. No concept should be more sacred or precious than our rights, it protects our freedoms. I too lament the problems we face as a society. We must find ways to deal with it. But we need to do so in a fashion that protects our freedom, whether it's from our neighbor, a foriegn country, our own government, or our school district.

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:

And for those who keep using the big brother (GOV) argument, give it a rest.

Oh, and the appropriate argument for that is what? Blow it out your piehole?

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

There will always be issues regarding our rights. Heck I know people that can't stand that seat belt law, but it has been a proven factor that seatbelts save lives. So that ticket you get for not wearing your belt, has it's upside. I kind of look at this drug testing for youngsters the same way. Forget about the cheating, if it saves a life, one life, than it's worth it to give up something, even if that something means taking away a bit of your freedom.

JMO.

TPM,
It sounds like I am much the same as you when it comes to dealing with teachers and others handling my kids.

Your seatbelt analogy is perfect for this discussion as it relates to government intrusion into personal lives, let me provide an alternative to that.

The seatbelt law is a law that protects me from me. I do no direct harm to others by not wearing it (the ancillary effects of death and losing a provider, etc, are not direct). Let's contrast that with the non-smoking laws also popular these days. A non smoking law protects me from you. Your smoke can directly injure me, therefore the law is protective.

Your argument for the seatbelt law, being one of saving lives and actually the larger argument, of causing financial burden on society is spot on. The problem with it, is that the law has taken a right of decision, where no direct harm is befallen, and placed a value on that right...this time a dollar value. This same argument could be made for...let's say, a sunscreen law. Deaths occur and there is a financial burden placed upon society by people who are reckless enough not to wear sunscreen and hats, therefore, because the criteria is now, "for ones own good and the financial protection of society", that law seems to pass muster an fit...let's pass it.

The relinquishing of rights is insidious because of the slippery slope that relinquishment feeds on. 20 years ago a seat belt law, based on the exact same criteria, would have been laughed out of the legislature. These days, because we have allowed encrochment on our rights, "for the good of...(insert cause here)", we have become numb to the concept, and this goes to what Coach2709 was trying to point out...it's our fault and we should do something about it.

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:

And for those who keep using the big brother (GOV) argument, give it a rest.

Oh, and the appropriate argument for that is what? Blow it out your piehole?

Very classy CPLZ, very classy indeed!
For someone who has ties to the (GOV), son getting an education and playing baseball for the (GOV), paid by the (GOV), you sure show a lot of anti (GOV) sentiment and have a paranoia of the (GOV).

CPLZ, my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot here, but just wanted to say thank you.

For the most part we all have pretty good kids, most athletes, most good students, and most good citizens. The problem with that is many times we are looking through blinders and not at the whole HS population. I don't care where your kids go to school, they all have an ugly faction. I can protect my kids at home, I want them protected in the schools so they can concentrate on their studies and feel safe. If that involves the threat of drug testing, locker searches, or whatever, I'm all for it. Keep the drug using trash away from my kids, they're dangerous and irresponsible, and I dont care if it's crack or PED's.

As an adult if your job requires a CDL license you are often tested at random, many other employers also test and they do this for safety and for employee health reasons, Why can't this be expanded to the schools for the same reasons. Shame on me, but for the most part I have lost the compassion to help the HS drug user, or the PED athlete, I just want the kids who have no fear in being tested to be safe, creative, open, and compete on an even playing field. Let the others worry about the the testing, they're already spinning the roulette wheel.

Remember when you where young and could eat whatever you wanted?Walk down the street after dark? If you got in trouble at school you got your arse beat, then again at home for getting in trouble at school? Remember when you respected anyone over the age of 20? Now we live in a world where you get sued if someone falls in your place of buisness and you can be called a racist for looking at sombody wrong? Most of the posters on this board grew up like that and raised our kids like that but the rest of America forgot and got on the band wagon looking to make a quick buck... My rants here are for this, you raise your kids to know right from wrong. If your kids are clean you should have no problems with testing. We live in a world where everybody has to worry about being politically correct and we don't trust no-one thinking they are out to get us. If your son is driving and his or her passenger doesn't have their seatbelt on and they get into a wreck guess who gets sued.... Let the schools test. If they do I bet there will be allot more that won't take drugs being scarred they will be caught.

Ruste, my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot here, but just wanted to say thank you.

CPLZ,
Good points about protecting me from me vs. me from you, you gtom me, etc.

Wouldn't drug testing young adults actually be protecting them from themselves?
My local gov't just told me I can't water my lawn on certain days and have times to follow or I get a heafty fine. We have to protect that resource as it is dwindling here. I don't care if my lawn burns up or not, what's the worst that can happen, I have to replace my lawn? That hefty fine is a good deterrant not to water, IMO.

I consider our children our greatest natural resource, and not easy to replace.

We do have choices, I don't fly much because the government says I have to go through certain procedures for mine ahd your safety. I don't go out and drink because I could get thrown in jail if I make a bad choice. I pay my taxes on time so I won't pay the penalities. I do everything electronically because the government says I have to put on a stamp (how much I have no clue I rarely snail mail).


Let me make it clear, I am not for testing all HS children, I am for testing athletes. Not those in the chess club, band, drama club, math club. Young athletes are the greatest at risk these days. I am only in favor of this because like the above it is a choice, and if I don't like the procedures that come with that choice, I can go play in the band.

Good posts rz1 and ruste!

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:

For someone who has ties to the (GOV), son getting an education and playing baseball for the (GOV), paid by the (GOV), you sure show a lot of anti (GOV) sentiment and have a paranoia of the (GOV).



Quote by CPLZ,
For the record, my only tie to the government is my honorable discharge from the Army. My son plays baseball for Army, not the government, it is the military. It is paid for by the government, in exchange for 8 years of service to his country, not his government.

Have a good day CPLZ and hook a big one!

Once again it's starting to get ugly in here.

I believe this topic started off on testing HS athletes for PEDs, and now we're into much more complex issues. Stanwood called this one right.. evidently a much too cantakerous a topic for this board. Let's stick to baseball folks.

quote:

tpm quote:
Let me make it clear, I am not for testing all HS children, I am for testing athletes.

The one, two, or three athletes on the "stuff" is a minor issue in the big scheme of things. It's the rest of the school is who you should be worrying about when you go to sleep at night, when your driving to the store for a late night treat, or when the kids of family and friends go to school functions. Testing across the board encompasses the athletic and general student bodies.

Please don't paint me as part of this "big brother" mentality but I think most will agree the "let's sit down and talk about it" mentality has not worked and it's time to put the hammer down and get a hold of the problems at hand before many more lives are ruined.

I see where tpm and others are coming from but I just think the problem is festering within the whole student body.

quote:

Let's stick to baseball folks.

Good advice spizzle...pass these around to everyone.



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Of course, as with all craft supplies and sporting goods, please be careful and use caution...we don't want any of you ending up looking like this unfortunate lass...






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quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
Ruste, my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot here, but just wanted to say thank you.

TAB,
Taking the debate to a personal level by attacking me, and then to mock another posters support, is inappropriate and uncalled for. I removed my last post, because I had fallen into the trap of responding to you.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
Ruste, my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot here, but just wanted to say thank you.

TAB,
Taking the debate to a personal level by attacking me, and then to mock another posters support, is inappropriate and uncalled for. I removed my last post, because I had fallen into the trap of responding to you.

Good for you CPLZ,

I will leave mine because although you are entitled to your opinion, my agreeing with Ruste and disagreeing with you does not reflect a personal attack on you or a mock of anyone!

You have a great day CPLZ, this topic is closed.