quote:Originally posted by gotwood4sale:quote:Let's stick to baseball folks.
Good advice spizzle...pass these around to everyone.
What happens with Elmer's stays with Elmer's.
.
Is this ball juiced? It gets bigger everytime I look at it.
Of course, as with all craft supplies and sporting goods, please be careful and use caution...we don't want any of you ending up looking like this unfortunate lass...
Now that's what I call losing face.
.
quote:Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:quote:Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
How indepth is testing at the collegiate level?
I'll ask again!
Son is at major D1 and there was no testing done at all until the Regional and then NCAA did sample a few players.
The topic is not closed. Let's keep the personal attacks down, it's a good discussion.
rz1,
You make a good point no arguing. I am with you on this I guess why signal out just the atheletes if I am concerned with drugs and our youth.
I also beleive that if we have done our job as parents, we should have no issues with drug testing. But sometimes good parents slip up, and I do want to know if my kid is messing up.
rz1,
You make a good point no arguing. I am with you on this I guess why signal out just the atheletes if I am concerned with drugs and our youth.
I also beleive that if we have done our job as parents, we should have no issues with drug testing. But sometimes good parents slip up, and I do want to know if my kid is messing up.
spizzle... 
Sorry for the interruption...now carry on folks.
Sorry for the interruption...now carry on folks.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by coach2709:
Because of No Child Left Behind we cannot teach anything about morals and values.
Sorry but you lost all credibility after this statement.
Because of No Child Left Behind we cannot teach anything about morals and values.
Sorry but you lost all credibility after this statement.
CPLZ,
I totally understand your point of view. I understand as a former military person you fought for us to keep our freedom and basic rights of choice as citizens.
Yes, life is about choices. A good example, I am not too familiar with military academies, but I am understanding that you live in a somewhat controlled environment. That was a good choice for your son, it would have been a bad choice for mine. Either way, both of our sons made good choices and if either one messes up, most likely that choice would be taken away.
Taking away some choices sometimes helps when people begin to make bad choices, then someone has to step in and take control until things get under control.
That's how I see this issue.
As far as not being able to teach moral and values, someon better tell the NCAA, my son had to take 8 NCAA classes and some included acceptable morals and values.
I totally understand your point of view. I understand as a former military person you fought for us to keep our freedom and basic rights of choice as citizens.
Yes, life is about choices. A good example, I am not too familiar with military academies, but I am understanding that you live in a somewhat controlled environment. That was a good choice for your son, it would have been a bad choice for mine. Either way, both of our sons made good choices and if either one messes up, most likely that choice would be taken away.
Taking away some choices sometimes helps when people begin to make bad choices, then someone has to step in and take control until things get under control.
That's how I see this issue.
As far as not being able to teach moral and values, someon better tell the NCAA, my son had to take 8 NCAA classes and some included acceptable morals and values.
I've been mocked!
Isn't mockery the greatest form of flattery?
For the record, we signed the FHSAA steroid testing consent form. The choice was to do that or not play. 2B's choice is always to play.
Also for the record, our school has a "life skills" course that all students must take before they can graduate.
This is a great discussion.
Isn't mockery the greatest form of flattery?
For the record, we signed the FHSAA steroid testing consent form. The choice was to do that or not play. 2B's choice is always to play.
Also for the record, our school has a "life skills" course that all students must take before they can graduate.
This is a great discussion.
I think this is a good discussion too. Great points by most everyone. However, more than anything else it shows just how difficult all of this is. Sure would be nice if there were a simple solution.
I get what CPLZ is talking about, and I appreciate how important his message is. I also get that others want something done about drugs in our society NOW. There is no easy fix here people, if there was it would have alredy been done. There's a lot of money at stake, and that alone will bog this issue down for years to come.
Now coming from a guy that works in public schools, and please excuse me if I offend anyone here, it seems that the people who scream loudest for school reform have the least amount of experience as to what is actually happening in education.
Drug testing entire student bodies is a huge issue, morally, legally, financially, and logistically. I don't hear any candidates discussing the issue presently. Why? Because they understand that it's very controversial and politically suicidal to go there. Come to think of it, education doesn't seem to be a hot topic at all in this up-coming election.
Street drugs, or RADs as someone here referred to them, are not a topic that I think we need to be discussing on baseball forum. Cleaning up the world is not on this board's agenda.
Cleaning up the game of baseball is however, and I think by working together we can do just that. I'll go back to my earlier post and suggest that by acting locally we can shed enough light on PED users to remove their cloak of secrecy and get the problem taken care of. I don't think we need drug testing to do that. JMHO
Now coming from a guy that works in public schools, and please excuse me if I offend anyone here, it seems that the people who scream loudest for school reform have the least amount of experience as to what is actually happening in education.
Drug testing entire student bodies is a huge issue, morally, legally, financially, and logistically. I don't hear any candidates discussing the issue presently. Why? Because they understand that it's very controversial and politically suicidal to go there. Come to think of it, education doesn't seem to be a hot topic at all in this up-coming election.
Street drugs, or RADs as someone here referred to them, are not a topic that I think we need to be discussing on baseball forum. Cleaning up the world is not on this board's agenda.
Cleaning up the game of baseball is however, and I think by working together we can do just that. I'll go back to my earlier post and suggest that by acting locally we can shed enough light on PED users to remove their cloak of secrecy and get the problem taken care of. I don't think we need drug testing to do that. JMHO
quote:Originally posted by 2Bmom:
2B's choice is always to play.
I think this was one of the most profound statements in this topic.
I agree with Spizzle, being this is a baseball board, our main concerns are with steriods in baseball.
We want to test paid players to stop cheating to bring the game back to where it was, but some don't want to test young players to save lives?
Isn't this what it is all about?
Or am I missing something?
young lives.
I think this topic has been awesome. I feel that most people have done a great job of posting their thoughts and beliefs in a very mature manner. I have always enjoyed CPLZ's (and others) posts on here but after this discussion I have a newfound respect for him. I know I won't convince him I am correct just like he won't convince me that he is correct. But the crazy thing is I believe he and I are actually supporting the same thing - just going about it differently. We both want the citizens of this country to do the right thing and be proactive in our government.
I believe this whole thread could be a great lesson plan based on free speech. Which brings up the problem with the people losing rights (which is what CPLZ is trying to prove) the cause of it is kids now a days are not learning the basics of our country and it's structure. Why our government works, how our government works, what our duties and responsibilities are as citizens and the difference between the two. The percentage of people voting in elections is very low - I believe the last election was around 56% off the top of my head. Out of that 56% older generations were the ones voting. The 18 - 30 age range really didn't come out to vote. That's sad.
Baseballregie could you please explain why I have lost all credibility? I don't see how that statement has destroyed my credibility. Maybe I can explain myself better to get a better understanding of what I wanted to put.
CPLZ when you posted:
I think this is a great point but I also read it as proving my point as well. The smoking law does protect "me from you" because I shouldn't have to breathe "your" cigarette smoke. The smoker is putting my health at risk. Well it's easy to see who is breaking that law and it's easy to enforce that law. Cops walk up to them and write a fine and make them put it out. While cigarettes are addicting a smoker can have enough control to wait for privacy (or other smokers) or enough control to go find privacy (or other smokers). They still are able to make a sensible decision that will not affect others.
Drugs create an addiction that doesn't let them have enough control to wait or get away. People with these addictions do not have the ability to make a reasonable decision. They will get behind the wheel of a car, play with a loaded gun around people, rob and steal to get their next fix and they can't consciously stop themselves. The problem is we can't always tell who exactly is using drugs.
Now this does create a problem for my argument. If the police are the ones who are doing the testing then I am against that. You are now arresting someone for something they MIGHT do and not for what they are doing or have done. I am against that. The only way the police should be responsible for the testing is if they have a valid reason to do it. The person has created a situation where there is a suggestion of doing it - similar to drunk driving. A cop sees a car weaving over the road they can do a sobriety check.
I believe testing should be done by someone not associated with the government - best possible choice would be the schools. Put them into an environment when they are tested they can get help for it instead of punished for it. Then if in that setting several attempts at getting help for this addiction then turn them over to the police. They have proven they cannnot function in a public setting.
Drugs are drugs and they are bad for you and others (just like PGStaff said about alcohol and tobacco). We need to be proactive in cleaning them up. Our society has become "addicted" (lacking a better term) to alcohol and tobacco. It permeates through our culture. If we don't watch it drugs will be just as accepted as the other two.
I don't drink, I don't smoke and I don't do drugs - those are my morals just like they are the morals of others. I want to protect them.
I believe this whole thread could be a great lesson plan based on free speech. Which brings up the problem with the people losing rights (which is what CPLZ is trying to prove) the cause of it is kids now a days are not learning the basics of our country and it's structure. Why our government works, how our government works, what our duties and responsibilities are as citizens and the difference between the two. The percentage of people voting in elections is very low - I believe the last election was around 56% off the top of my head. Out of that 56% older generations were the ones voting. The 18 - 30 age range really didn't come out to vote. That's sad.
quote:Because of No Child Left Behind we cannot teach anything about morals and values.
Sorry but you lost all credibility after this statement.
Baseballregie could you please explain why I have lost all credibility? I don't see how that statement has destroyed my credibility. Maybe I can explain myself better to get a better understanding of what I wanted to put.
CPLZ when you posted:
quote:The seatbelt law is a law that protects me from me. I do no direct harm to others by not wearing it (the ancillary effects of death and losing a provider, etc, are not direct). Let's contrast that with the non-smoking laws also popular these days. A non smoking law protects me from you. Your smoke can directly injure me, therefore the law is protective.
I think this is a great point but I also read it as proving my point as well. The smoking law does protect "me from you" because I shouldn't have to breathe "your" cigarette smoke. The smoker is putting my health at risk. Well it's easy to see who is breaking that law and it's easy to enforce that law. Cops walk up to them and write a fine and make them put it out. While cigarettes are addicting a smoker can have enough control to wait for privacy (or other smokers) or enough control to go find privacy (or other smokers). They still are able to make a sensible decision that will not affect others.
Drugs create an addiction that doesn't let them have enough control to wait or get away. People with these addictions do not have the ability to make a reasonable decision. They will get behind the wheel of a car, play with a loaded gun around people, rob and steal to get their next fix and they can't consciously stop themselves. The problem is we can't always tell who exactly is using drugs.
Now this does create a problem for my argument. If the police are the ones who are doing the testing then I am against that. You are now arresting someone for something they MIGHT do and not for what they are doing or have done. I am against that. The only way the police should be responsible for the testing is if they have a valid reason to do it. The person has created a situation where there is a suggestion of doing it - similar to drunk driving. A cop sees a car weaving over the road they can do a sobriety check.
I believe testing should be done by someone not associated with the government - best possible choice would be the schools. Put them into an environment when they are tested they can get help for it instead of punished for it. Then if in that setting several attempts at getting help for this addiction then turn them over to the police. They have proven they cannnot function in a public setting.
Drugs are drugs and they are bad for you and others (just like PGStaff said about alcohol and tobacco). We need to be proactive in cleaning them up. Our society has become "addicted" (lacking a better term) to alcohol and tobacco. It permeates through our culture. If we don't watch it drugs will be just as accepted as the other two.
I don't drink, I don't smoke and I don't do drugs - those are my morals just like they are the morals of others. I want to protect them.
quote:Originally posted by spizzlepop:
Cleaning up the game of baseball is however, and I think by working together we can do just that. I'll go back to my earlier post and suggest that by acting locally we can shed enough light on PED users to remove their cloak of secrecy and get the problem taken care of. I don't think we need drug testing to do that. JMHO
spizzlepop While I agree with what you are saying I personally feel that testing is the only way you are going to get into that "cloak of secrecy". The problem is that HS is a short span of a persons life and by the time a "closet user" is detected, he's out of the system and the process begins for the next user, and over-n-over-n-over. A threat that testing will be part of your HS career is the only way you will deter and identify users. IMHO
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
A threat that testing will be part of your HS career is the only way you will deter and identify users. IMHO
CPLZ – Given that you directed this to me, I will give you the courtesy of an answer.
Statement;
Smokey,
There are several different levels of issues here.
Response;
The only issue I am discussing is “The problem with HS Drug Testing”, the topic of this thread.
Question;
1. Should we drug test;
A. The whole student population
Answer;
I don’t know. It was never a topic of this discussion. That’s another “kettle of fish” altogether.
Question;
B. Just Athletes
Answer;
Yes
Question;
2. What do we drug test for
A. Just student athletes
Answer;
Anything the athlete and their parents agreed to within the “Athletic Code of Conduct Agreement”. For example: “Use or possession of alcohol, tobacco products and/or controlled/illegal substances”. I guess that means that; the 14 to 17 (sometimes 18) year old athletes better be aware that there are consequences if they smoke, drink, or do drugs (like steroids, pot, cocaine, heroine, you name it if it’s illegal…) and get caught, in this discussion, via testing.
Question;
a. For PED's
Answer;
I don’t know what PEDs are, steroids? If PEDs in the “Athletic Code of Conduct Agreement” then YES.
Question
b. For the broad spectrum of illegal drugs
Answer;
If it is in the “Athletic Code of Conduct Agreement”, YES
Question:
B. The whole student population for the broad spectrum of illegal drugs
Answer;
Again, I don’t know. I thought we were talking about student athletes.
Question;
3. Who administers the tests
Answer;
Great question… IMHO an independent 3rd party drug testing laboratory like the one “mom of 2 catchers” works for. Regarding who the lab should be; I am not qualifies to answer.
MO2C – Thank you, by the way, for taking the time and informing us about the process of professional drug testing. Part of this whole process is full disclosure and proper “chain of custody”. Good stuff.
Question;
A. Police
Answer;
NO.
Question;
B. School Administrators
Answer;
NO
Statement;
And then you introduced a new topic that wasn't included in this discussion previously.
Response;
Please accept my apologies if I “muddied the waters” and introduced a new topic that wasn’t previously discussed. It’s not like that has never happened on this site…
My intent was to show, given that I do not have examples, first hand, of drug testing disciplinary actions, a “cause and effect” athletic discipline system at work. Was it unfair… only if you were on the receiving end. Was it stupid… you bet. Do I feel sorry for them… absolutely not. When my son was in HS we signed the exact same “Athletic Conduct Agreement”. On the weekends he hung around with a group of baseball players who went out of their way to avoid these parties. It was even quoted in the local paper at the time. This created a special bond, a “band of brothers” mentality. They went on to the Illinois Elite Eight that year and 5 of them got D1 scholarships. They made sacrifices, one of them being adhering to the schools “Athletic Conduct Agreement”. As my father would say; “Many are called, few are chosen”.
Let’s not make this anymore complicated than it needs to be. Make these HS student athletes accountable for their actions. Are they special… every last one of them. Should they be held to a higher standard… every last one of them. Should they be held accountable for actions unbecoming of a student athlete… every last one of them.
Statement;
4. Should the school have the right to conduct investigations and hand down punishments to students because of their participation or behavior at events that have nothing to do with the school or the school district?
Answer;
If it is in violation of the signed “Athletic Conduct Agreement”, YES.
Statement;
I can't help that you don't get where I'm coming from or my airport analogy, perhaps I'm not good at explaining myself.
Response;
Ok. I didn’t mean anything. I just didn’t connect the dots.
Statement;
Saying that life isn't fair is a cop out to turn your back on injustice and do nothing about it. As a civilized society, we should strive for equality and fairness. Sure, sometimes situations come up that aren't fair and there's nothing we can do about that at the particular time. But that isn't cart blanche to be apathetic.
Response;
I take umbrage with this statement. I did not say; “life isn’t fair”. I stated; "life is not always fair, it’s not, and it sometime really sucks, however, do the right thing anyway (at least while you live under my roof)… character counts". Please go back and read my post. I still stand by that statement. The rest of this statement from “is a cop out…”, if that was directed to me… no comment. If it was meant to be editorial or rhetorical… ok then.
CLPZ – My hats off to you for starting an edgy topic that needs addressing. Again, I agree to disagree regarding how to go about keeping our HS athletes drug free and healthy.
Peace.
P.S. It’s great having Woody back in the fray.
Statement;
Smokey,
There are several different levels of issues here.
Response;
The only issue I am discussing is “The problem with HS Drug Testing”, the topic of this thread.
Question;
1. Should we drug test;
A. The whole student population
Answer;
I don’t know. It was never a topic of this discussion. That’s another “kettle of fish” altogether.
Question;
B. Just Athletes
Answer;
Yes
Question;
2. What do we drug test for
A. Just student athletes
Answer;
Anything the athlete and their parents agreed to within the “Athletic Code of Conduct Agreement”. For example: “Use or possession of alcohol, tobacco products and/or controlled/illegal substances”. I guess that means that; the 14 to 17 (sometimes 18) year old athletes better be aware that there are consequences if they smoke, drink, or do drugs (like steroids, pot, cocaine, heroine, you name it if it’s illegal…) and get caught, in this discussion, via testing.
Question;
a. For PED's
Answer;
I don’t know what PEDs are, steroids? If PEDs in the “Athletic Code of Conduct Agreement” then YES.
Question
b. For the broad spectrum of illegal drugs
Answer;
If it is in the “Athletic Code of Conduct Agreement”, YES
Question:
B. The whole student population for the broad spectrum of illegal drugs
Answer;
Again, I don’t know. I thought we were talking about student athletes.
Question;
3. Who administers the tests
Answer;
Great question… IMHO an independent 3rd party drug testing laboratory like the one “mom of 2 catchers” works for. Regarding who the lab should be; I am not qualifies to answer.
MO2C – Thank you, by the way, for taking the time and informing us about the process of professional drug testing. Part of this whole process is full disclosure and proper “chain of custody”. Good stuff.
Question;
A. Police
Answer;
NO.
Question;
B. School Administrators
Answer;
NO
Statement;
And then you introduced a new topic that wasn't included in this discussion previously.
Response;
Please accept my apologies if I “muddied the waters” and introduced a new topic that wasn’t previously discussed. It’s not like that has never happened on this site…
My intent was to show, given that I do not have examples, first hand, of drug testing disciplinary actions, a “cause and effect” athletic discipline system at work. Was it unfair… only if you were on the receiving end. Was it stupid… you bet. Do I feel sorry for them… absolutely not. When my son was in HS we signed the exact same “Athletic Conduct Agreement”. On the weekends he hung around with a group of baseball players who went out of their way to avoid these parties. It was even quoted in the local paper at the time. This created a special bond, a “band of brothers” mentality. They went on to the Illinois Elite Eight that year and 5 of them got D1 scholarships. They made sacrifices, one of them being adhering to the schools “Athletic Conduct Agreement”. As my father would say; “Many are called, few are chosen”.
Let’s not make this anymore complicated than it needs to be. Make these HS student athletes accountable for their actions. Are they special… every last one of them. Should they be held to a higher standard… every last one of them. Should they be held accountable for actions unbecoming of a student athlete… every last one of them.
Statement;
4. Should the school have the right to conduct investigations and hand down punishments to students because of their participation or behavior at events that have nothing to do with the school or the school district?
Answer;
If it is in violation of the signed “Athletic Conduct Agreement”, YES.
Statement;
I can't help that you don't get where I'm coming from or my airport analogy, perhaps I'm not good at explaining myself.
Response;
Ok. I didn’t mean anything. I just didn’t connect the dots.
Statement;
Saying that life isn't fair is a cop out to turn your back on injustice and do nothing about it. As a civilized society, we should strive for equality and fairness. Sure, sometimes situations come up that aren't fair and there's nothing we can do about that at the particular time. But that isn't cart blanche to be apathetic.
Response;
I take umbrage with this statement. I did not say; “life isn’t fair”. I stated; "life is not always fair, it’s not, and it sometime really sucks, however, do the right thing anyway (at least while you live under my roof)… character counts". Please go back and read my post. I still stand by that statement. The rest of this statement from “is a cop out…”, if that was directed to me… no comment. If it was meant to be editorial or rhetorical… ok then.
CLPZ – My hats off to you for starting an edgy topic that needs addressing. Again, I agree to disagree regarding how to go about keeping our HS athletes drug free and healthy.
Peace.
P.S. It’s great having Woody back in the fray.
I've been sitting on the sidelines reading each post and thinking. This is about HS but let's start with the Major's where because of the union players that are innoncent kept quiet and now they all are under suspicion. What if the guys that were not using PED's had come forward and said "enough's enough I don't want to associated with this and something needs to get done. The players that were not using are supposedly in the majority. Or are they, we don't know.
Now for HS, It seems we will have the same problem here. The silent majority I believe would favor testing but then the lawyers get involved and it will never happen. These drugs are illegal, period. If my son was doing something illegal I'd want to know about it. I could give a darn about his rights. As long as I am responsible for him and he is underage and in my house I want to know. Regardless of whether it was drinking, RAD's, PED's, whatever, it is wrong. If it takes testing then so be it. If it saves just one kid it would all be worth it.
So my opinion as long as they are in school at whatever level and they want to have the priveledge to compete then at least random testing should be a condition of competeing. If you don't want to be tested then don't compete.
Now for HS, It seems we will have the same problem here. The silent majority I believe would favor testing but then the lawyers get involved and it will never happen. These drugs are illegal, period. If my son was doing something illegal I'd want to know about it. I could give a darn about his rights. As long as I am responsible for him and he is underage and in my house I want to know. Regardless of whether it was drinking, RAD's, PED's, whatever, it is wrong. If it takes testing then so be it. If it saves just one kid it would all be worth it.
So my opinion as long as they are in school at whatever level and they want to have the priveledge to compete then at least random testing should be a condition of competeing. If you don't want to be tested then don't compete.
This thread has made me think about where I came from and my influences. I grew up in the peace, love, civil rights, roll another one generation and my parents were great people who gave me my space and let me learn by my mistakes with unconditional love and understanding. If you were stopped for DUI, the cop may give you a ride home if you were polite, minor possession; a lecture and loss of goods 
Looking back, if there was more "overseeing" by the parents/teachers/employers and adults in general back then I would probably have 6 friends that I can only think about today because of their own immaturity and stupidity. Sure I could have "ratted" them out, but at 16-19 yrs old you do not do that, and those unwritten "brother/partner" rules still exist today. As parents, and I don't care how close you are to your kids, you will only hear what they want you to hear. Testing seems like the only way you can detect and deter without involving others in a McCarthy/Mitchell witch hunt.
Looking back, if there was more "overseeing" by the parents/teachers/employers and adults in general back then I would probably have 6 friends that I can only think about today because of their own immaturity and stupidity. Sure I could have "ratted" them out, but at 16-19 yrs old you do not do that, and those unwritten "brother/partner" rules still exist today. As parents, and I don't care how close you are to your kids, you will only hear what they want you to hear. Testing seems like the only way you can detect and deter without involving others in a McCarthy/Mitchell witch hunt.quote:Originally posted by rz1:
A threat that testing will be part of your HS career is the only way you will deter and identify users. IMHO
rz - I can think of one other "threat" that my high schooler is aware of - if he ever tried to mess with this lying, cheating stuff.
It isnt the administration - it isnt the law - and it isnt the media.
Its the people sitting at the dinner table with him every night.
RZ,
Great post. I always like the perspective of how screwed up we were, and we were, and how it's not a blueprint for the rest of our lives, but a phase.
The biggest tough guy thug, drinker, drugger in HS...now a pastor. Imagine the experience he can draw on from his past to help his parishiners! That kind of stuff doesn't come from a book.
Things definately need to be done, and anyone who thinks I support a hugs not drugs policy, we'll, they just don't know me at all. The zealousness with which we pursue it however, should be measured against the lasting effect it can have on our precious freedoms. A very tough thing to balance when talking about the protection of children against dark influences.
And Smokey, it was editorial and not personal. Re-reading my post, I see that I didn't seperate that well and I appreciate your willingness to consider that.
This is a great thread, and I have benefitted from listening.
Great post. I always like the perspective of how screwed up we were, and we were, and how it's not a blueprint for the rest of our lives, but a phase.
The biggest tough guy thug, drinker, drugger in HS...now a pastor. Imagine the experience he can draw on from his past to help his parishiners! That kind of stuff doesn't come from a book.
Things definately need to be done, and anyone who thinks I support a hugs not drugs policy, we'll, they just don't know me at all. The zealousness with which we pursue it however, should be measured against the lasting effect it can have on our precious freedoms. A very tough thing to balance when talking about the protection of children against dark influences.
And Smokey, it was editorial and not personal. Re-reading my post, I see that I didn't seperate that well and I appreciate your willingness to consider that.
This is a great thread, and I have benefitted from listening.
I too think this has been a great thread. What is so great about this site is we all share something in common "baseball" but we all share so many different views as well. And at the same time we all can express those views and hear others opinions as well.
It should never be personal. Some things strike a nerve and when it comes to our kids what could strike a more sensitive nerve? Nothing in my opinion. I have no doubt that we all want what is best not only for our children but for all children. We may disagree on how to do it, but I think we all agree that something should be done.
It should never be personal. Some things strike a nerve and when it comes to our kids what could strike a more sensitive nerve? Nothing in my opinion. I have no doubt that we all want what is best not only for our children but for all children. We may disagree on how to do it, but I think we all agree that something should be done.
For those of you who think only the student-athletes should be tested (assuming there should be testing):
Are you aware there are kids in high school and college illegally taking Ritalin like candy? Why? It workies like greenies. It helps them keep going and going and study longer.
If my daughter gets beat out of med school by other students popping Ritalin, I'm going to be a lot more upset than the softball player who may beat her out by taking steroids.
Are you aware there are kids in high school and college illegally taking Ritalin like candy? Why? It workies like greenies. It helps them keep going and going and study longer.
If my daughter gets beat out of med school by other students popping Ritalin, I'm going to be a lot more upset than the softball player who may beat her out by taking steroids.
this is a topic that means a lot to me and my family. it seems i'm like poison when i post on this topic. so maybe this will kill this thread.
first hs testing doesn't NEED to be an arm of the law. meaning it can be handle by the school and parents.
their are many drug companys that would donate these test at next to nothing. a posative test may mean you go get one at your doctor to confirm. many way's to make this work.
as a parent of a drug user/addict athlete. you don't need to be a bad parent to have this happen to your family,and it does effect your whole family. i look at this as a tool for parents of the kid that doesn't listen. it makes them accoutable for their actions.following adult rules without adult penalty's.kind of like driving the bmw to school without paying for it.
i think most of you would be surprised if not shocked if you knew which kids used drugs. the kid with the full boat to college, the future cop, all kinds. there will be a few who end up as addicts.or maybe even dead.this really happens at most every school. and there really isn't a lot of help for parent's, that is very frustrating to say the least.
i said in responce to roger clemens article,the most troubling thing to me was when he said he (ate viox like skittles and shot pain killers just to perform.) i don't care if he did have a prescription that was legal,they don't say take a handfull every three hours that is abusing a prescription drug.that in my mind makes him a drug abuser.most kids can't get hgh, but i bet most everyone can get a pain killer within an hour. it is one of the most abused drugs in hs. but nobody else noticed that message.these kids can buy this stuff on line with just a credit card. try it.
as a parent of one of the addicts, i say test them. and help them. maybe you save a parent some heart ache, maybe you save a kids life.
first hs testing doesn't NEED to be an arm of the law. meaning it can be handle by the school and parents.
their are many drug companys that would donate these test at next to nothing. a posative test may mean you go get one at your doctor to confirm. many way's to make this work.
as a parent of a drug user/addict athlete. you don't need to be a bad parent to have this happen to your family,and it does effect your whole family. i look at this as a tool for parents of the kid that doesn't listen. it makes them accoutable for their actions.following adult rules without adult penalty's.kind of like driving the bmw to school without paying for it.
i think most of you would be surprised if not shocked if you knew which kids used drugs. the kid with the full boat to college, the future cop, all kinds. there will be a few who end up as addicts.or maybe even dead.this really happens at most every school. and there really isn't a lot of help for parent's, that is very frustrating to say the least.
i said in responce to roger clemens article,the most troubling thing to me was when he said he (ate viox like skittles and shot pain killers just to perform.) i don't care if he did have a prescription that was legal,they don't say take a handfull every three hours that is abusing a prescription drug.that in my mind makes him a drug abuser.most kids can't get hgh, but i bet most everyone can get a pain killer within an hour. it is one of the most abused drugs in hs. but nobody else noticed that message.these kids can buy this stuff on line with just a credit card. try it.
as a parent of one of the addicts, i say test them. and help them. maybe you save a parent some heart ache, maybe you save a kids life.
quote:The problem is that HS is a short span of a persons life and by the time a "closet user" is detected, he's out of the system and the process begins for the next user, and over-n-over-n-over. A threat that testing will be part of your HS career is the only way you will deter and identify users.
I don't disagree RZ1, in fact I wholeheartedly agree that the only way to ensure PED users will be identified by "authorities" is through testing. But I don't have confidence that the "authorities" can cope with this problem any time soon. They've got a lot of other issues on the table right now. That's one reason I'm not sold on the testing idea.
Allow me if you will one more stab at what I'm trying to say, because I believe there is an even stronger deterrent. Please don't take this to mean that I am soft on this issue. I am not. I am dead set against illicit drug use by children. But this is about PEDs.
We can probably all agree that these kids- the users- will not be able to sustain their game at the next level if they are reliant on PEDs, they will get caught whether it's in HS, college, or in professional ball. These users, many of them good kids but perhaps not with outstanding character, will become social outcasts if discovered.It will be sudden and it will be devastating. I believe they fear that even more than failing at baseball on their own merit. What drives them to become users, the need for recognition and success, can then effectively turned against them. When the youth culture becomes aware of the measures already in place in the NCAA and MiLB, and with an effective awareness campaign it shouldn't take any longer than implementing a drug testing regimen, they'll stop looking to PEDs because the rewards are no longer tangible.
Look, I believe in hope, and I am very hopeful for the future of young people in this country. If I didn't feel that way I couldn't do what I do. JMHO
quote:Look, I believe in hope, and I am very hopeful for the future of young people in this country. If I didn't feel that way I couldn't do what I do. JMHO
sizzlepop we are on the same page I just wish I could subscribe to your positive attitude and resolve this in a gentle way but after almost 35 years the song remains the same only the characters have shorter hair
And to make things worse, we've recently found that many of our professional heroes have leaned away from social responsibility in favor of the dollar FLASHBACK 1973.
Like many others in my generation, I was close
Don't get me wrong I was a good kid, no "hardcore" drugs, from a blue collar family, smart grounded parents, graduated in 3.5 years, never arrested, never suspended, and didn't stick out in any group. All I needed to curtail my "choice of entertainment" was the threat of being caught, in todays terms that would be called drug tested. In the end I was lucky as a funeral, not my own, showed me the light.
You could change my character with a kid from today without a bump and all I'm saying is there has to be a way that will stop this epidemic. It hasn't gotten better, kids will always be kids, and the problem has expanded from the parking lot and parties to also include the locker room and in my book thats 35 years of regression.
Sorry to personalize and like other times I could be way off base but IMHO our playbook has to change to a more aggressive offense.
RZ1,
what you said is the reality of a lot of kids. there are a lot of straight A kids , that have jobs and are model citizens that Party. there are very few kids anymore that dont party to some degree. athletes are especially put under a lot of peer pressure.these kids think they wont get caught.but if the thread is about athletes using illegal substances to get ahead they also dont thin k there is any thing wrong with it. go into a nutritional store. i was in one today to buy my son some muscle milk for after workouts. i was talking to the people who work there and kids are taking all kinds of stuff. precursors to testosterone that helps your body make more (sounds an awful lot like steroids) not recommended for kids but they take it.there is an awful lot of stuff that is legal that borderlines the boundaries. It really is a very scary thing to me. I just hope my son doesnt get into this type of stuff. i have taught him right from wrong but kids do stupid things sometimes. maybe the testing woud scare them enought not to. a lot of people might disagree but thats how i feel about it and if it offends a kid then it just does.i imagine its been going on for years even when we were young just not as aware of it.baseball just cant be important enough to hurt you,but some players want to be their best and feel they need something extra. I dont know where it all started or where it will end. I just want my son to be safe.i dont know enough about some of these supplements and will notlet my son take anything except the protein drinks after workouts.
what you said is the reality of a lot of kids. there are a lot of straight A kids , that have jobs and are model citizens that Party. there are very few kids anymore that dont party to some degree. athletes are especially put under a lot of peer pressure.these kids think they wont get caught.but if the thread is about athletes using illegal substances to get ahead they also dont thin k there is any thing wrong with it. go into a nutritional store. i was in one today to buy my son some muscle milk for after workouts. i was talking to the people who work there and kids are taking all kinds of stuff. precursors to testosterone that helps your body make more (sounds an awful lot like steroids) not recommended for kids but they take it.there is an awful lot of stuff that is legal that borderlines the boundaries. It really is a very scary thing to me. I just hope my son doesnt get into this type of stuff. i have taught him right from wrong but kids do stupid things sometimes. maybe the testing woud scare them enought not to. a lot of people might disagree but thats how i feel about it and if it offends a kid then it just does.i imagine its been going on for years even when we were young just not as aware of it.baseball just cant be important enough to hurt you,but some players want to be their best and feel they need something extra. I dont know where it all started or where it will end. I just want my son to be safe.i dont know enough about some of these supplements and will notlet my son take anything except the protein drinks after workouts.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:Look, I believe in hope, and I am very hopeful for the future of young people in this country. If I didn't feel that way I couldn't do what I do. JMHO
sizzlepop we are on the same page I just wish I could subscribe to your positive attitude and resolve this in a gentle way but after almost 35 years the song remains the same only the characters have shorter hair
FLASHBACK 1973.
Like many others in my generation, I was closeto being my parents "little closet addict" under my own premonition that I was a recreational user like everyone else my age in the world. I laughed at adults that thought I was a straight shooter, smiled when I was complimented by my good decision making, and on top of the world when parents at the Y where I worked would say they hoped their kid would grow up and be like me. They didn't have a clue, what a phony and hypocrite I was. I got away with it and it became a challenge to push the limit because the only thing that could stop me was a mistake on my part. The funny part is that if I was stupid enough to "use" how could I be smart enough to know when to stop.
Don't get me wrong I was a good kid, no "hardcore" drugs, from a blue collar family, smart grounded parents, graduated in 3.5 years, never arrested, never suspended, and didn't stick out in any group. All I needed to curtail my "choice of entertainment" was the threat of being caught, in todays terms that would be called drug tested. In the end I was lucky as a funeral, not my own, showed me the light.
You could change my character with a kid from today without a bump and all I'm saying is there has to be a way that will stop this epidemic. It hasn't gotten better, kids will always be kids, and the problem has expanded from the parking lot and parties to also include the locker room and in my book thats 35 years of regression.
Sorry to personalize and like other times I could be way off base but IMHO our playbook has to change to a more aggressive offense.
You and many other people I know (including me) must be the same age.
I grew up where there were no rules, if you got caught with a DUI someone brought you back home, something else you got a lecture and lost your stuff. Off to college where there definetly were no rules, you had what you want at your disposal, and amphetimes ruled for all niters and still does on college campuses, now ritalin is a new choice for that.Knowing what goes on in college from my own experiences, I felt a slight comfort knowing when he headed off to college that just the thought of random testing was a deterrant for my athlete, as I feel the same way now. Kids are kids. It's not just asthletes but kids that want to look like body builders. After spending so many long hours in the gym, they realize it takes too long to look like Arnold.
My husband has lost several friends from his fraternity due to drug overdose. Their constant indulgance lead to very serious drug addiction.
RZ1 is spot-on. The 4 years of HS are here and gone before you know it (collage too BTW). If that doesn’t create a sense of urgency I don’t know what does. As a result, the child (and they are children at this point) can pass through high school undetected.
Using words like “authorities” conjures up visions of punishment and “big-brother”. Keep in mind testing must stem from the regard for the athlete's health and well being, not a reason to punish. Like Principle Ed Rooney chasing Ferris Bueller.
After reading some of the published material on steroid use in American High Schools, the thing that scares me most is that steroids are not considered drugs like meth, pot, heroine, cocaine, et al. They look at pain killers like oxycodone and vicodine in the same light. Those using steroids and pain killers do not consider themselves “poster-child” drug users.
“I may use steroids but thank GOD I’m not like those stoners and crack-heads.”
The attitude regarding these drugs has to change. It’s tough when their heroes are “using” and lying about it in-front of the US Congress.
Testing is only one part of a comprehensive program that is going to be effective. Education and treatment must be part of the equation for any of this to be successful. One of my biggest concerns at our local HS today is that they bounce (suspend) kids for drug offences with-out any “safety-net” help, for the kid and for the parents.
One more point and I’ll shut-up. These programs and changes can take many, many years. It has been my experience that high schools (and even the state system) tend to like the “status quo”. Change sometime can be a long and arduous process. Administrators know this and can regard parent’s overtures for change as a “bump-in-the-road” irritation that will go away once the student graduates and moves on. "Don’t upset the apple cart, we know what we are doing, how dare you try to muddle with out feudal system." Get involved with the school board, get to know them personally. Run for it yourself or get someone civic minded that understands your cause elected. Educate yourself about federal and state education laws. I was fortunate to have a brother-in-law who was a principle (27 years) of a very large public HS in our state to help me navigate these waters (another story, but very similar). Stick with it… pass the torch. Eat the elephant one bite at a time…
This must be approached unselfishly, for the good of the school, students, and community. Our high school (school system in general) is one of the single greatest assets to our community. Families move to our community to have access to our education system. This has a direct correlation to property values including the retention of those values. In dollars and cents, what is the percentage of personal property taxes spent for education? Look at it as taking measures to protect that investment.
Think of it as protecting your greatest asset… your children and the children of your community.
Sorry for the caffeine induced diatribe… back to work.
Using words like “authorities” conjures up visions of punishment and “big-brother”. Keep in mind testing must stem from the regard for the athlete's health and well being, not a reason to punish. Like Principle Ed Rooney chasing Ferris Bueller.
After reading some of the published material on steroid use in American High Schools, the thing that scares me most is that steroids are not considered drugs like meth, pot, heroine, cocaine, et al. They look at pain killers like oxycodone and vicodine in the same light. Those using steroids and pain killers do not consider themselves “poster-child” drug users.
“I may use steroids but thank GOD I’m not like those stoners and crack-heads.”
The attitude regarding these drugs has to change. It’s tough when their heroes are “using” and lying about it in-front of the US Congress.
Testing is only one part of a comprehensive program that is going to be effective. Education and treatment must be part of the equation for any of this to be successful. One of my biggest concerns at our local HS today is that they bounce (suspend) kids for drug offences with-out any “safety-net” help, for the kid and for the parents.
One more point and I’ll shut-up. These programs and changes can take many, many years. It has been my experience that high schools (and even the state system) tend to like the “status quo”. Change sometime can be a long and arduous process. Administrators know this and can regard parent’s overtures for change as a “bump-in-the-road” irritation that will go away once the student graduates and moves on. "Don’t upset the apple cart, we know what we are doing, how dare you try to muddle with out feudal system." Get involved with the school board, get to know them personally. Run for it yourself or get someone civic minded that understands your cause elected. Educate yourself about federal and state education laws. I was fortunate to have a brother-in-law who was a principle (27 years) of a very large public HS in our state to help me navigate these waters (another story, but very similar). Stick with it… pass the torch. Eat the elephant one bite at a time…
This must be approached unselfishly, for the good of the school, students, and community. Our high school (school system in general) is one of the single greatest assets to our community. Families move to our community to have access to our education system. This has a direct correlation to property values including the retention of those values. In dollars and cents, what is the percentage of personal property taxes spent for education? Look at it as taking measures to protect that investment.
Think of it as protecting your greatest asset… your children and the children of your community.
Sorry for the caffeine induced diatribe… back to work.
There have been some great posts in this thread.
Here is one of the most deeply moving set of articles I have ever read on teenage drug usage. This is the tragic/unbelievable story of a wealthy family here in Cleveland where both of the parents are/were trained MD's/Psychiatrists/Counselors yet they did not recognize how deeply the problems their own son was having until it was too late.
I am guessing they would be all for testing if it would mean it could have possibly saved their son's life. This series of 8 articles was published in the Cleveland Plain Dealer two and a half years ago and the writer won all types of awards for the series. If anyone takes the time to read this series, I would be interested if it changes anyone's perspective on this issue.
http://www.cleveland.com/andy/
Here is one of the most deeply moving set of articles I have ever read on teenage drug usage. This is the tragic/unbelievable story of a wealthy family here in Cleveland where both of the parents are/were trained MD's/Psychiatrists/Counselors yet they did not recognize how deeply the problems their own son was having until it was too late.
I am guessing they would be all for testing if it would mean it could have possibly saved their son's life. This series of 8 articles was published in the Cleveland Plain Dealer two and a half years ago and the writer won all types of awards for the series. If anyone takes the time to read this series, I would be interested if it changes anyone's perspective on this issue.
http://www.cleveland.com/andy/
Maybe the "big-brother" "authority", "drug testing" tags are a big part of the problem. They are all negative and my suggestion is changing the name to a "School Health and Safety Check-up" that has random medical check-ups that are not only physical in nature but also has behavior study. These "check-ups" would NOT be sponsored by the the school administration, or the local PD, but rather by created District PTO in conjunction with local HMO's. Results remain between Dr and family and positive tests would result in subsequent tests at which time would affect eligibility in extra curricular activity. Students remain a number until a 2nd positive test.
Who would argue....................except those who are guilty. The one thing that the schools do not have is a "State of the System" physical/mental report. All numbers now are generated by reported infractions, not by a substantiated random survey. This would give the district important school data at the same time put a thought in the back of students minds that they may be selected to participate. But more important is the student gets 1 "get out of jail free" card
Who would argue....................except those who are guilty. The one thing that the schools do not have is a "State of the System" physical/mental report. All numbers now are generated by reported infractions, not by a substantiated random survey. This would give the district important school data at the same time put a thought in the back of students minds that they may be selected to participate. But more important is the student gets 1 "get out of jail free" card
quote:Originally posted by Smokey:
After reading some of the published material on steroid use in American High Schools, the thing that scares me most is that steroids are not considered drugs like meth, pot, heroine, cocaine, et al. They look at pain killers like oxycodone and vicodine in the same light. Those using steroids and pain killers do not consider themselves “poster-child” drug users.
“I may use steroids but thank GOD I’m not like those stoners and crack-heads.”
The attitude regarding these drugs has to change. It’s tough when their heroes are “using” and lying about it in-front of the US Congress
Yes. This is precisely why I think that PED users are easier to deter; they aren't using for the same reasons. Stoners are disillusioned. Sure they're trying to enhance their reality, but in a totally escapist manner. They don't perceive themselves fitting in so they don't give a dam about society. It's another ball of wax.
It's different psychology for PED users. They are fully aware that sports are mainstream, and are trying to get an edge on competition through enhanced performance. If they realize that reality no longer is viable through enhancement, then I believe they'll stop using. Especially if they see their heros and role-models falling for similar transgressions.
quote:Get involved with the school board, get to know them personally. Run for it yourself or get someone civic minded that understands your cause elected. Educate yourself about federal and state education laws. I was fortunate to have a brother-in-law who was a principle (27 years) of a very large public HS in our state to help me navigate these waters (another story, but very similar). Stick with it… pass the torch.
I'll add one more. If you really want to make a difference, get involved directly with the kids and become a teacher.
CD,
Very sad.
On a personal level, I have a first cousin who committed suicide at 18 nearly 40 years while in rehab for drug addiction.
I have a neice who was a cocaine addict at 18, now in her thirties, although clean for many years she fights her addiction everyday. The very strange part she is a body builder and I think her addiction has taken her to a new level of addiction.
My sister in laws son (not by marriage) is 18 and heavily into drugs. Since I have known them, he has been: caught growing weed in his closet, sent to disiplanery school after not being allowed to saty in school after 16, arrested for starting a fire, habitual runaway, HS drop out and recently arrested for theft before his 18th birthday and not charged as an adult, been fired from McDonalds and the recent sub shop he was employed at all at 18. I first told my sister in law 5 years ago he was a user. My sister in law,a nurse practioner, refuses to admit he has issues, "he's just going through a defiant stage". She refuses to place him in a rehab program and has never had him tested or done a test herself, this is a NURSE of the highest degree level.
In all of the above, all came from very wealthy families or families with unlimited means. All parents state they had no clue what was going on. They have all laid blame on others, or in the case of my first cousin, the person who supplied their habit.
The successful attorney Robert Shapiro will tell you that not was it until too late that he realized what was happening to his son, who died from overdose.
Very sad.
On a personal level, I have a first cousin who committed suicide at 18 nearly 40 years while in rehab for drug addiction.
I have a neice who was a cocaine addict at 18, now in her thirties, although clean for many years she fights her addiction everyday. The very strange part she is a body builder and I think her addiction has taken her to a new level of addiction.
My sister in laws son (not by marriage) is 18 and heavily into drugs. Since I have known them, he has been: caught growing weed in his closet, sent to disiplanery school after not being allowed to saty in school after 16, arrested for starting a fire, habitual runaway, HS drop out and recently arrested for theft before his 18th birthday and not charged as an adult, been fired from McDonalds and the recent sub shop he was employed at all at 18. I first told my sister in law 5 years ago he was a user. My sister in law,a nurse practioner, refuses to admit he has issues, "he's just going through a defiant stage".
She refuses to place him in a rehab program and has never had him tested or done a test herself, this is a NURSE of the highest degree level. In all of the above, all came from very wealthy families or families with unlimited means. All parents state they had no clue what was going on. They have all laid blame on others, or in the case of my first cousin, the person who supplied their habit.
The successful attorney Robert Shapiro will tell you that not was it until too late that he realized what was happening to his son, who died from overdose.
we have drug testing in our county. every student that is involved with ANY after school activity has to agree to the random drug testing. this year it was expanded to include steroid testing. i think this a GREAT thing. if someone test positive they have to go through a drug class(this remains annonymus) as long as they complete the course.. no other punishment. the 2nd offense i am not sure what the punishment is, we have never had one (in our school) get to this point. it gives the student an out from the peer pressure. "i can't smoke the weed because i will be tested" can now be the answer for someone who is being pressured at a party etc. i personally wish they would test EVERY student. will get more specific info later
People who committ suicide do not do it because they have more guts. They do it because they are in a phycological state of mind that allows them to do it. Addiction is a disease and it has to be treated as such. It takes an approach that not only addresses the social issues accompanied by this but the root causes as well.
It does not take guts to kill yourself. No more than it takes guts to take another innocent persons life. It takes a person who has lost his sense of reality and has reached a psychological state of mind that does not allow them to reason like a mentally healthy person.
Drug abuse is brought about by many reasons. Your environment can put you in a situation where you are constantly confronted with its use. It can be a way of life in some communities. Others seek it out for the "thrill" or the desire to push the envelope. There are many reasons. But the fact is it touches every walk of life and every community.
If you think for one minute that your child has not or will not be confronted with using illegal drugs you are fooling yourself. Any help I can get to deter its use or just its experimentation I whole heartedly support.
It does not take guts to kill yourself. No more than it takes guts to take another innocent persons life. It takes a person who has lost his sense of reality and has reached a psychological state of mind that does not allow them to reason like a mentally healthy person.
Drug abuse is brought about by many reasons. Your environment can put you in a situation where you are constantly confronted with its use. It can be a way of life in some communities. Others seek it out for the "thrill" or the desire to push the envelope. There are many reasons. But the fact is it touches every walk of life and every community.
If you think for one minute that your child has not or will not be confronted with using illegal drugs you are fooling yourself. Any help I can get to deter its use or just its experimentation I whole heartedly support.
Understanding , YES. Tolerance , NO. Let me explain. I was sworn in on my 21 birthday. I hit the mean streets of Durham as a wide eyed 21 year old cop ready to make a difference. I believed if we locked up all the drug dealers and the drug users we could solve the problems associated with its use.
I eventually rose to the rank of SGT in charge of the Streets Narcotics Squad. Believe me I helped put alot of young and old and in between in jail. Doctors , Lawyers , Carpenters , Teachers , Bus Drivers , White , Black , Hispanic , Rich , Middle income , Poor - you name it.
What I learned was this. When you grow up in an environment where you get up in the morning at 12 years old and your mom is sitting on the couch smoking crack. Your dad is no where to be found because you dont have one. Its time to go to school but mom says "Boy get out there and sling this caine."
This is one of thousands of scenarios I saw for 20 years. Tolerance , NO. Understanding , Yes. Before we can do anything about the dangers of drugs and its destructive behavior in these communities we must firt attack the social and economic issues at play in these communities.
When you arrest a 14 year old selling heroin on the street corner. And your subsequent investigation reveals he was trying to make money so his infant brother could have formula to drink then you talk to me about understanding.
When you go into a house and find 5 siblings gathered around a fire with no heat in the house. No parents around because they are out getting high. And there is no food in the house. Then you might have some understanding why the older brother is on the corner selling weed to buy food for his siblings.
I have a hell of alot of understanding because I have seen first hand the evils and the pain that it causes. I have no tolerance for the people that push this stuff on kids. I have no tolerance for the adults that abuse their children because they are out getting high. But I also understand there is a whole lot more to the equation.
I have no tolerance for the people profitting from others pain and destructive behavior. But I have a tremendous amount of understanding for the people caught in a cycle of destruction that is not of their making.
I challenge anyone to tell me if you would have made it out? If you would have rose above? Son get out there and sling some caine the baby needs some formula. If thats all you know , thats all you know. And we worry about drug testing?
Everyone that uses drugs is not a scum bag. Everyone that uses drugs is not a rich kid that was out looking for a fun time. Some people are born into an environment and they have to fight to survive.
I lived it for 20 years. You can lock up all the drug users you want. Hell lock them all up. You will run out of jail cells. And before you can turn around there will be just as many waiting for you to come get them. The conditions that create the problem that is what needs to be addressed. Jobs , education , self esteem , rebuilding of the family structure and UNDERSTANDING.
Sorry for the long post.
I eventually rose to the rank of SGT in charge of the Streets Narcotics Squad. Believe me I helped put alot of young and old and in between in jail. Doctors , Lawyers , Carpenters , Teachers , Bus Drivers , White , Black , Hispanic , Rich , Middle income , Poor - you name it.
What I learned was this. When you grow up in an environment where you get up in the morning at 12 years old and your mom is sitting on the couch smoking crack. Your dad is no where to be found because you dont have one. Its time to go to school but mom says "Boy get out there and sling this caine."
This is one of thousands of scenarios I saw for 20 years. Tolerance , NO. Understanding , Yes. Before we can do anything about the dangers of drugs and its destructive behavior in these communities we must firt attack the social and economic issues at play in these communities.
When you arrest a 14 year old selling heroin on the street corner. And your subsequent investigation reveals he was trying to make money so his infant brother could have formula to drink then you talk to me about understanding.
When you go into a house and find 5 siblings gathered around a fire with no heat in the house. No parents around because they are out getting high. And there is no food in the house. Then you might have some understanding why the older brother is on the corner selling weed to buy food for his siblings.
I have a hell of alot of understanding because I have seen first hand the evils and the pain that it causes. I have no tolerance for the people that push this stuff on kids. I have no tolerance for the adults that abuse their children because they are out getting high. But I also understand there is a whole lot more to the equation.
I have no tolerance for the people profitting from others pain and destructive behavior. But I have a tremendous amount of understanding for the people caught in a cycle of destruction that is not of their making.
I challenge anyone to tell me if you would have made it out? If you would have rose above? Son get out there and sling some caine the baby needs some formula. If thats all you know , thats all you know. And we worry about drug testing?
Everyone that uses drugs is not a scum bag. Everyone that uses drugs is not a rich kid that was out looking for a fun time. Some people are born into an environment and they have to fight to survive.
I lived it for 20 years. You can lock up all the drug users you want. Hell lock them all up. You will run out of jail cells. And before you can turn around there will be just as many waiting for you to come get them. The conditions that create the problem that is what needs to be addressed. Jobs , education , self esteem , rebuilding of the family structure and UNDERSTANDING.
Sorry for the long post.
Coach May
No apology needed!!!
Great post
No apology needed!!!
Great post
LLorton and Coach May - I am not exactly sure if you two agree or disagree with each other and that demonstrates the complexities in the issue. I am not even sure that I agree or disagree with what either of you have posted but this much I am sure of, both of your posts were extremly moving in the honest feelings they expressed and your opinions are appreciated.
Instead of trying to figure out the world's problems, how about just discussing the issue of testing for steroid use in HS athletes?
Well dam* why didnt you just say so! I completely agree with your post.
I appreciate the apology but believe me it is not needed. Your last post was very good. I could have used that a few years ago believe me.
One of my son's friends was growing up in this environment. She was a good athlete as a young kid, but more importantly she was a brilliant student and a great person. When sports outgrew her she became a cheerleader because she wanted in on the action. Last month her crack head mother's crack head boyfriend murdered her.quote:I challenge anyone to tell me if you would have made it out? If you would have rose above? Son get out there and sling some caine the baby needs some formula. If thats all you know , thats all you know. And we worry about drug testing?
Everyone that uses drugs is not a scum bag. Everyone that uses drugs is not a rich kid that was out looking for a fun time. Some people are born into an environment and they have to fight to survive.
This was a kid who was growing up in a crack house in the small "other side of the tracks" section of a very well off school district. All she had was her enthusiamsm and her brilliant mind. Yet she could cheer up spoiled, rich kids by telling them they would be OK when things weren't going their way. She wasn't worried about what she didn't have now. She would say she'll earn it later.
Even a month later at tonight's basketball game I was thinking there was a hole in the gym where her enthusiam used to be. It's because some cracked out *** killed her, stuffed her in a box and threw her away like trash. Now it turns out he may have killed others.