They turned around their program with the transfer portal and graduate seniors

Wise words.  And from the lower end of the spectrum, I doubt there has ever been a worse time for a D3/D1 “bubble player” to reach higher than their skill level hoping that they can be a needle in a haystack.

I’m seeing countless players who overreached for that D1 dream lasting only a couple months and bouncing down to a JUCO.  Or even being shocked at D3 at not making the travel squad.  With the extra year of eligibility from the pandemic 18 year olds are competing with 23 year olds for playing time.

For the high school parents:  let your kids be challenged and face adversity.  Have them play up an age group or two if possible.  Don’t let them be part of a travel program that caters to their ego. The last thing you want is for their first taste of real adversity and struggle to come in college. That is a true recipe for disaster.

I will add this as another ingredient that is messing up the recipe for successful college recruiting : independent scouting services (such as one in particular that frequents this site occasionally). I’m not going to call them out by name but to me they are all the same. They declare on social media that they are experts. They make up awards for themselves and post their phony accolades. They tweet and retweet and play social media warrior. They groom their victims much like criminals do and they know just enough about baseball to sound believable. But here is what they do - for money they promote kids that aren’t good enough to play college baseball. Which is taking advantage of families who are desperate for a college opportunity after spending 10 years and lots of money working towards this goal. The kids that they “represent” who can play are pushed to programs that they aren’t good enough to play for. They aren’t acting in the best interests of the players. They are trying to build their own brand. In doing so they make it infinitely harder to to get a kid to the place that’s the right fit. The college baseball marketplace is over saturated with players. There is more supply than demand which means opportunities are hard to come by.  When options are limited you can’t afford to make a mistake right out of the chute. You often can’t recover from it. Most scouting agents aren’t looking for a fit. They are looking to put a notch in their belt. HA specialists like Play to Win would be the exception to my statements. Im taking about your common garden variety guy that shows up at HS and travel ball games (uninvited), shoots some video, chats up players & parents, and offers (for a fee) to get players advanced to college programs. Avoid these guys like the plague. They are snake oil salesman. They don’t know college coaches and they can’t do anything for you that you can’t accomplish yourself. What they can do is set unrealistic expectations that can result in an early end to a playing career.

adbono- very very true.  You see this with many travel programs, too.  The more D1 commits they can put on their wall and website, the more kids they can get booked for lessons and workshops, and signed up to pay $1800+ to play on the 10U C Team.  It’s a racket.  

Parents:  pay closer attention to the percentage of D1 commits who stay in D1 their whole career (and actually play)

@3and2Fastball posted:

adbono- very very true.  You see this with many travel programs, too.  The more D1 commits they can put on their wall and website, the more kids they can get booked for lessons and workshops, and signed up to pay $1800+ to play on the 10U C Team.  It’s a racket.  

Parents:  pay closer attention to the percentage of D1 commits who stay in D1 their whole career (and actually play)

It is a racket indeed. I wrote a paper for a coaches clinic a few years ago entitled “The Truth About Select Baseball.” It was not very flattering.

Adbono;

During my 17 years of the Area Code Games and tryouts, I placed a "ban" on the College Baseball recruiting services and "showcases". The Pro scouts select our players for the games and tryouts and their cooperation was valuable to our success.

Maybe you can develop a list of 5 questions for the parents to ask the "operators".

#1 How did you obtain my son's name?

#2 send the names and phone # of your successful placements.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;

During my 17 years of the Area Code Games and tryouts, I placed a "ban" on the College Baseball recruiting services and "showcases". The Pro scouts select our players for the games and tryouts and their cooperation was valuable to our success.

Maybe you can develop a list of 5 questions for the parents to ask the "operators".

#1 How did you obtain my son's name?

#2 send the names and phone # of your successful placements.

Bob

#3 What is your playing experience?

#4 What is your coaching experience?

#5 Provide names and email contact info for 5 college coaches as references

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;

During my 17 years of the Area Code Games and tryouts, I placed a "ban" on the College Baseball recruiting services and "showcases". The Pro scouts select our players for the games and tryouts and their cooperation was valuable to our success.

Maybe you can develop a list of 5 questions for the parents to ask the "operators".

#1 How did you obtain my son's name?

#2 send the names and phone # of your successful placements.

Bob

you placed a ban on recruiting services, this is great, nobody and I mean nobody who is on the list for consideration for Area Code's needs a recruiting service.

As for showcases, tines have changed, the vast majority of kids have already showcased by the the time AC is even a consideration. The entire concept of todays AC is a whos who of a youth baseball. There are virtually zero unknowns who show up as "found by the AC games" it just isn't what happens. The USA development thing is the same. 400 kids show to "compete" for a 25 man team that has one or 2 open spots...there are no walkons.

Recruiting services suck, they are scum but I don't think it is fair to lump in travel programs and showcase networks into the same conversation as recruiting services.

My kids were never involved with recruiting services. I’ve helped other kids overcome their poor help. From what I gathered they blast coaches with names. They recommend players target email coaches without ever evaluating their talent. A kid I helped was told by a recruiting service to email the coaches at Vanderbilt and Stanford among others. The kid was a  5’7” D3 fourth outfielder with no power and a weak arm. He had good speed and hit .350 (almost all singles) in high school.

  There are some good travel orgs but not very many IMO. The good ones have some good coaches, but not for every team at all age groups. Even the good ones place too much emphasis on playing games vs practice - and none of them do a good job of teaching the game. They provide game reps at a lot of venues. That’s about it. Almost all travel orgs place their own financial interests above the best interests of their players and the families that fund their existence. And all of them have one thing in common - a person at the top of the org that has figured out how to monetize a boy’s dream.
  As for Showcase Networks, pretty much the same thing goes. A few are good and are worth the money. But most are not. Most of them exist because they have been successful in spreading propaganda that it is necessary for HS players to attend their events if they want to play in college. I agree that a few carefully selected (and affordable) events can be helpful. But 13U teams don’t need to travel to PG events in Florida & Georgia in the name of “exposure.” Events that have coaches (from the appropriate level of college play) that are their to scout/recruit (as opposed to grading players for a paycheck) are good events to attend. So is local PBR event to get verified metrics - not that the metrics will get you recruited but a RC might ask. But you shouldn’t attend any showcase before you have tools to showcase. You won’t hear that from any of the event organizers. From them you will hear, “credit card number and expiration date, please.”

We never paid for any recruiting service, it was clear my kid was gonna go D3.  We were fortunate enough to have a few D1 coaches as well as a pro scout that we knew that gave us honest assessments. They told us “look he can hit, he’s got a great swing, but if he’s not running a 6.8 60 or throwing 90+, he’s not going to get on the best travel teams and he’s not going to be recruited to D1’s.  He’s not big enough to be one of the few big slow corner guys who are the exception.  Get good grades, get in a good D3 program, get a degree, develop and play in the best summer leagues you can.”

A lot of parents don’t want to hear that kind of real talk.  We loved it.  Saved us a ton of time and money.

@3and2Fastball wrote, “a lot of parents don’t want to hear that kind of real talk.”

There has never been a more true statement than that on this site.

I am much more "diplomatic" than adbono. When those parents talk I just bob my head and smile.

The difference is he is trying to help kids and I am just trying to have a quiet time in the stands.

@Good Knight posted:

I am much more "diplomatic" than adbono. When those parents talk I just bob my head and smile.

The difference is he is trying to help kids and I am just trying to have a quiet time in the stands.

Ha! I will confess that diplomacy is not my strong suit.

@adbono posted:

Ha! I will confess that diplomacy is not my strong suit.

So much the better for those of us who value straight and to the point!   

People said the 2020s got screwed because of the pandemic. And, they did because they lost their senior HS season and they ran into a log jam when they reported to college in August. I would bet that a lot of those 2020s ended up as redshirts in 2021.

People said the 2021s got screwed because the pandemic hurt them getting seen as juniors in 2020. That's a valid point.  They probably had less landing spots because of the log jam as well. 

And, the 2022s got squeezed as well. Although I think that class got smarter seeing what happened with the 2020s and 2021s. And, the 22s realized that they needed to consider what was available and act quickly rather than get shutout.

Maybe the class that really got the screws the worst is the 2023s? Many probably thought it would all be worked out by their turn? But, with all the extra free year kids, and all the redshirts in 2021 (and maybe more in 22?), and with all the transfers and kids shifting both laterally and horizontally, there's even less room at the inn now than there was the two prior years? Maybe the pandemic's biggest impact is on the 23s?

Not sure...but...maybe?

Question.

If scouting services and travel organizations are pushing kids towards programs that they don't belong in, what does that say about the coach and his staff?

No coach should ever offer an opportunity unless that player belongs. Coaches need to win to keep their job.  So why are coaches taking on players that don't belong. If they are getting players based on someone's opinion only, and not following the player themselves, they aren't doing the job that they are being paid to do, correct?

So whose fault is it if a player ends up in a program that he really doesn't belong in?

TPM, Im not talking about scholarship offers as much as I’m talking about walk on offers. Coaches have nothing to lose by extending as many of those as kids will accept. Maybe a kid turns into a player and helps the program - but that is a rare result. With only 11.7 schollys at D1 and 9 at D2 (if fully funded) all programs rely on walk ons to some extent. In any event, every walk on player is a 100% paying customer of that University and is bringing revenue to that school. In fact some coaches get personal financial incentives to bring in as many walk ons as possible for that distinct purpose. They don’t care if the kid makes the team or not. He is paying full freight as long as he is there. Travel orgs and scouting services would rather see a kid take a walk on offer at Ole Miss than take a scholarship offer to Pearl River CC. So they often influence in that manner - which isn’t in the kid’s best long term interests. But it makes the org/agent look good to the next person that comes along.  Surely you know all this as you are one of the most informed people on this site. The recruiting game has really gotten more difficult over the past 2 years and I see lots of new “experts”, offering bad advice, to unsuspecting players and parents. And I don’t like it. Not one bit!

Francis - I think it’ll be worse for the 2022’s.  The logjam in rosters is there and there’ll be 5th year Seniors transferring in and out of programs.  Arizona State’s catcher is a 5th year transfer from a D3.  

Who do you think coaches are going to trust in their starting lineup?  A 23/24 year old grown man with years of experience or skinny “Johnny Hot Prospect”?

@3and2Fastball posted:

Francis - I think it’ll be worse for the 2022’s.  The logjam in rosters is there and there’ll be 5th year Seniors transferring in and out of programs.  Arizona State’s catcher is a 5th year transfer from a D3.  

Who do you think coaches are going to trust in their starting lineup?  A 23/24 year old grown man with years of experience or skinny “Johnny Hot Prospect”?

Two years ago when the NCAA ruled to give all spring sports athletes an additional year of eligibility it wasn’t hard to forecast what that would do to recruiting. I posted a lot back then about where things were headed and got some pushback from a few that contended that freshmen would take precedence over 5 year players b/c they are the future of the program. I remember thinking (and saying), it just doesn’t work that way and you are in for a big disappointment. Unfortunately many have had to live that experience. For college coaches the future is NOW and they will ALWAYS defer to more experienced players.

@3and2Fastball posted:

Francis - I think it’ll be worse for the 2022’s.  The logjam in rosters is there and there’ll be 5th year Seniors transferring in and out of programs.  Arizona State’s catcher is a 5th year transfer from a D3.  

Who do you think coaches are going to trust in their starting lineup?  A 23/24 year old grown man with years of experience or skinny “Johnny Hot Prospect”?

The 5th year transfer is not the starting catcher.

@adbono posted:

every walk on player is a 100% paying customer of that University and is bringing revenue to that school. In fact some coaches get personal financial incentives to bring in as many walk ons as possible for that distinct purpose. They don’t care if the kid makes the team or not.

Some walk-ons have merit or need-based scholarships, so they don't need athletic money.  But the point is the same, they don't cost the coach anything.  Makes the travel org look good, makes the kid happy through HS, and then it's only the kid whose path is derailed when he is cut or asked not to return.  That's on both the college coaches and the travel orgs.  There are plenty of cautionary walk-on stories here on HSBBW.

To be fair, my son's 17U travel coach did warn us, when a D1 showed interest, that the school took a lot of transfers for its upperclassmen, and probably wanted my son because he would get an academic scholarship and would boost the team GPA.  The travel coaches aren't all bad!

@adbono posted:

TPM, Im not talking about scholarship offers as much as I’m talking about walk on offers.

Ok, that's fair. You didn't specify.

The Summer Leagues and JC Regional and National Tournaments will benefit from the increase of talent.

The MLB pro scouts will evaluate these programs for quality of the "draft eligible" player in a competitive environment.

The SCOUTING dept of the ML Club will like a "traffic" cop directing the scout to be "time efficient".

Bob

@TPM posted:

Ok, that's fair. You didn't specify.

That’s true. I didn’t.

Players/Recruiting services do not recruit college programs rather college programs recruit players.....It is that simple!

When my 2015 was going through the journey an SEC coach who I know well said "If your kid is good we know about them". Tier 1 players will have  choices of which some will work out and some will not. 

Tier 2 player will need some help with the "marketing".   Recruiting services may or may not help and will depend on the service, I guess, but the big showcases can be a option.  Players and college programs that do not have big recruiting/travel budgets can attend these showcases to reach a big audience. Mid major like Ivy, Patriot, Big South etc.. rely on showcases whether it is their own or some of the big known ones.

Which ever method one chooses.......choose wisely.

@JABMK posted:

Players/Recruiting services do not recruit college programs rather college programs recruit players.....It is that simple!

When my 2015 was going through the journey an SEC coach who I know well said "If your kid is good we know about them". Tier 1 players will have  choices of which some will work out and some will not.

Tier 2 player will need some help with the "marketing".   Recruiting services may or may not help and will depend on the service, I guess, but the big showcases can be a option.  Players and college programs that do not have big recruiting/travel budgets can attend these showcases to reach a big audience. Mid major like Ivy, Patriot, Big South etc.. rely on showcases whether it is their own or some of the big known ones.

Which ever method one chooses.......choose wisely.

Excellent points!

@JABMK posted:

Players/Recruiting services do not recruit college programs rather college programs recruit players.....It is that simple!

When my 2015 was going through the journey an SEC coach who I know well said "If your kid is good we know about them". Tier 1 players will have  choices of which some will work out and some will not.

Tier 2 player will need some help with the "marketing".   Recruiting services may or may not help and will depend on the service, I guess, but the big showcases can be a option.  Players and college programs that do not have big recruiting/travel budgets can attend these showcases to reach a big audience. Mid major like Ivy, Patriot, Big South etc.. rely on showcases whether it is their own or some of the big known ones.

Which ever method one chooses.......choose wisely.

This is where an advocate comes into play. An advocate is a travel coach, instructor or other person with a connection to the player. The advocate has contacts. The advocate can call a college coach and recommend they check out a player. Because the advocate has credibility with college coaching staffs they check out the recommended player.

A recruiting service isn’t connected to the player. They’re contracted by the player. It’s not uncommon the recruiting service has never seen the player on the field. So, whose recommendation are they working off the player is a fit for the college program?

All very valid points.

The current recruiting model is based on cast a wide net, money at every level.  The usage of social media to promote was a natural next step.  This is not to state if the process is good or bad, we can all find holes or ways that it can be improved.

Note, we've reconciled the NCAA-D1 Pipeline from all JUCO levels.

He is a link to check out JUCO's that have players at D1 schools

https://collegebaseballinsight...line-dashboard-free/

In the process of reconciling other 4 year division.  Up next D2.

@CollegebaseballInsights - I'm curious what the true freshman per roster count looks like over the past 5 years in D1. I'm not sure if that's even possible to report since many rosters don't discern between academic year and eligibility. My local D1 schools are a mixed bag. Some have reduced freshman count and some haven't. I guess roster size is also a factor. Some schools might be bringing in the same number of freshmen but using the extra roster spots for transfers and older covid guys.

Factoring in all the variables of class, juco years, transfer waiver... I'm guessing this 2022 season is the one most impacted by covid rules. That is, the worst of the log jam. But with NJCAA not counting the 2021 season against eligibility, all the covid players won't age out of the system until the 2025 season ends. Absolutely nuts.

"Travel orgs and scouting services would rather see a kid take a walk on offer at Ole Miss than take a scholarship offer to Pearl River CC." -adbono

LOTS of good and true statements in this thread, but this one is especially true.  Our area really only has one option for travel ball at the high school level.  My son played for them just once - the 2020 summer after his junior year - after Covid cancelled the spring HS season.  I am very grateful because they got my son out on the road (and got offers) when it was very hard and time-critical to do so, but they really didn't do a whole lot more than that.  They're largely good people whose hearts are mostly in the right place, but they absolutely are chasing nationwide respect and more "trophies" (D1 commitments) than anything else.  They're putting 20-25 player super teams together to send to Ft Myers in February and the like.  Many of which are already committed.  Kids here are getting on airplanes to go pitch 2.1 total innings over the course of a weekend under the guise of "getting exposure" and "playing the best competition."  Yes, the players are getting a tiny bit more exposure and a tiny bit more play against good competition, but when it costs $3K+ for a 2-3 day trip in February or October, I'd argue that it has very little to do with doing right by the players and the parents paying for it. But the money is there and no one is complaining.

@DanJ posted:

"Travel orgs and scouting services would rather see a kid take a walk on offer at Ole Miss than take a scholarship offer to Pearl River CC." -adbono

Many of these kids would struggle to start at Pearl River CC, let alone Ole Miss. From my personal experience, the majority of parents have never sat in a dugout next to grown men and competed for positions. They have never had their doors blown off by superior competition. They don't understand what competing against that feels like. A lot of parents just assume, or I guess are sold the idea, that their kid will be given a spot at the table. After all, XYZ Organization has quite a few "D1 Commit" pictures on the wall.

On a second note, I know of a couple organizations that are notorious for taking credit on "D1 Commit" for occasional guest players (1 in particular). Friend of mine was appalled when they promoted his already D1 committed son on social media and posted his picture on their wall. He laughed when I said that's what you get for letting him play that tournament with them. That's all they wanted..... it's all done in bad taste, but from a marketing prospective it's genius. 

I think geography plays a big part in all of this. Here in FL the JUCOs are so good,  mid D1 and D2 within state offer great opportunities. These players end up playing and doing well.  However because of pre pay and the state lottery, coaches can afford to take some out of state players who usually are found at the big tournaments. There are also great events here as well as in the east coast that players from all over the country attend.

If one lives out of state and wants to be seen by as many coaches as possible all over the country you have to spend  money to attend these events. If a family wants to travel south to attend these events that's their priority.

The best coaches from the best programs search every option to find players that are RIGHT for their programs. That includes every division in college baseball.

@DanJ posted:

"Kids here are getting on airplanes to go pitch 2.1 total innings over the course of a weekend under the guise of "getting exposure" and "playing the best competition."  Yes, the players are getting a tiny bit more exposure and a tiny bit more play against good competition, but when it costs $3K+ for a 2-3 day trip in February or October, I'd argue that it has very little to do with doing right by the players and the parents paying for it."

For my son, this was part and parcel of getting the very best coaching possible in our area.  Other good advice on this site states that it is best to spend money and time on development (at least until ready for true exposure).  Become the best player possible, rather than waste early time on showcases.  This means get the best coaching, which means get on the best travel team possible.  Unfortunately, at least where we are, these sorts of travel teams all go to WWBA, etc.

My son's 2-plus years with the best organization around definitely turned him into a much better, all-state player.  Unfortunately, it also put us thousands of dollars into the hole because we therefore were obligated to travel to Fort Myers, Atlanta, etc.  (And at the time, we were excited about it!)

Pick your poison.

The best coaching in our area is done by the better travel teams. We don't have a big representation of National level teams but there are 10 or more high level regional teams where kids get the best reps and it isn't close. It starts to taper off at 16u from a practice perspective but from 10-15 it is the best way for sure. 

@adbono posted:

I will add this as another ingredient that is messing up the recipe for successful college recruiting : independent scouting services (such as one in particular that frequents this site occasionally). I’m not going to call them out by name but to me they are all the same. They declare on social media that they are experts. They make up awards for themselves and post their phony accolades. They tweet and retweet and play social media warrior. They groom their victims much like criminals do and they know just enough about baseball to sound believable. But here is what they do - for money they promote kids that aren’t good enough to play college baseball. Which is taking advantage of families who are desperate for a college opportunity after spending 10 years and lots of money working towards this goal. The kids that they “represent” who can play are pushed to programs that they aren’t good enough to play for. They aren’t acting in the best interests of the players. They are trying to build their own brand. In doing so they make it infinitely harder to to get a kid to the place that’s the right fit. The college baseball marketplace is over saturated with players. There is more supply than demand which means opportunities are hard to come by.  When options are limited you can’t afford to make a mistake right out of the chute. You often can’t recover from it. Most scouting agents aren’t looking for a fit. They are looking to put a notch in their belt. HA specialists like Play to Win would be the exception to my statements. Im taking about your common garden variety guy that shows up at HS and travel ball games (uninvited), shoots some video, chats up players & parents, and offers (for a fee) to get players advanced to college programs. Avoid these guys like the plague. They are snake oil salesman. They don’t know college coaches and they can’t do anything for you that you can’t accomplish yourself. What they can do is set unrealistic expectations that can result in an early end to a playing career.

I'd always ask "what do you know about my boy"?  Amazing what they think they know and what they don't know.

With regards to practice time / getting better / etc.  I'm lucky to be have Friday afternoon's off for the last 10 years, so I've made it to high school practices of both my boys.  When people say that kids get better at practice (select or HS) I believe that is true.  However at our HS 1/3 of the practice is spent in the cages, while 2/3 is spent on the field.  Of that time on the field I'd say that 3/4 of that may be spent on "game situations" (ie scrimmaging off a pitching machine) and then 1/4 on some type of drill (PFP, run downs, etc).  Rarely is there much of "fundamental" work.

Which is why for the past 10 years most Sunday ( for 2-3 hours) "fundamentals" are being reinforced with a good old Dad/Son bonding experience.

This year youngest has 6/7 bunt hits in 14 games.  Parents come and say "he's a good bunter".  I just smile and say "yes he is, lots of work", knowing that before any BP sessions that we've had, he has always had to get down 10 sacs to 3rd, 10 sacs to 1st, 10 bunts for hits to the left side and 10 bunts for hits to the right side.  No swings until that was done.

I've always looked at HS coaches and summer coaches as someone who can shine the diamond that's been provided to them...........or provide nuances or insight.     

Travel organizations taking credit for one time guest’s commitments is common. When we were checking out 17u programs recruiting my son there were four names on the wall at one place that stuck out to me.

Two were major leaguers everyone would recognize the names. Two were former Vanderbilt players (one in majors) I played with and were friends with the fathers. All four lived at least 350 miles away.

I called one of the friends to ask him about his kid being on the alumni wall. His son and the other kid were recruited at a PG showcase to play free of charge one week at East Cobb (PG national championships) The two recognizable names showed up the same weekend. They all played for free. The lodging was free. They just had to get there.

It turned out this travel program had a reputation for throwing its paying 17u players under the bus and recruiting in a a lot of “on the house” players for major tournaments.

A kid from my son’s travel organization made it to AAA. He signed a for seven figures. So, he was known. He threatened to sue an organization if they didn’t take his name off the wall. He rented a lane there for an hour once.

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

@CollegebaseballInsights - I'm curious what the true freshman per roster count looks like over the past 5 years in D1. I'm not sure if that's even possible to report since many rosters don't discern between academic year and eligibility. My local D1 schools are a mixed bag. Some have reduced freshman count and some haven't. I guess roster size is also a factor. Some schools might be bringing in the same number of freshmen but using the extra roster spots for transfers and older covid guys.

Factoring in all the variables of class, juco years, transfer waiver... I'm guessing this 2022 season is the one most impacted by covid rules. That is, the worst of the log jam. But with NJCAA not counting the 2021 season against eligibility, all the covid players won't age out of the system until the 2025 season ends. Absolutely nuts.

@midatlanticdad  Great question.

A 5 year review is a heavy lift, note school's data is raw data and has inconsistencies within years and across years.

Graduation classification is challenging at best,  we are at the mercy of the coaches interpretation of the players classification.

As part of our process for 2022, we tagged true freshman vs Covid or Redshirt Freshman.  The plan is to tag other grade classes with their eligibility.

NCAA-D1 is 90% done for Freshman classification.

With respects to history, we focus on certain information so that the roster turnover and transfer specific features are working.

On top of covid there's the elimination of 42 minor league affiliates in 2021. That's 1,000+ affiliated roster spots that no longer exist. Many of those low minors roster spots were occupied by high school and juco draftees, so now they're occupying roster spots in collegiate ball instead.

Yes some of those former affiliates are now indy ball teams, but except for players who simply can't handle college academically, few to none of them are going to choose indy ball over collegiate ball.