I don't agree that all need to go juco route. I still think the best of the best at each level, if they are playing at the right level, will play straight out of HS. We started a Friday and Sunday guy last year who were freshmen and our DH all year long was between 2 freshmen. I just think you better be good to start as a freshman and be playing at the right level. Not much different than it always has been but I think now the middle guys who may have got playing time in the past as freshmen are being revealed. The problem now more than ever is guys are not willing to wait their turn but they are also not willing to move down a level or down to the bottom teams in the right level to play as freshmen.
The biggest thing I have an issue with are the late cuts on HS kids. Teams that have 20 committed from HS, then add 10 transfers and cut 5 HS kids in late July before they get to campus. Guys who have been committed for 3-4 years and get the rug pulled out at the last minute. At least have the honor to tell them earlier so they can find a new home. They are pretty much stuck with JUCO options and for some kids that isn't where they need to go based on academics.
@PitchingFan posted:I don't agree that all need to go juco route. I still think the best of the best at each level, if they are playing at the right level, will play straight out of HS. We started a Friday and Sunday guy last year who were freshmen and our DH all year long was between 2 freshmen. I just think you better be good to start as a freshman and be playing at the right level. Not much different than it always has been but I think now the middle guys who may have got playing time in the past as freshmen are being revealed. The problem now more than ever is guys are not willing to wait their turn but they are also not willing to move down a level or down to the bottom teams in the right level to play as freshmen.
I told myself I wasn’t going to post on this thread again but….
wait their turn….at most schools outside of Tennessee, when their turn comes up there is a transfer there to take it. We had a catcher, drafted late out of hs and turned it down. Waited behind a great catcher for a year, oops then a COVID year, then last year…it’s his turn, but we got a grad transfer who took the spot. The ONLY reason he got his turn was because the grad transfer got hurt and was out for the season. And the guy who would have been on the bench (again), killed it. At least at the schools I’m aware of, if you didn’t get on the field freshman year, waiting your turn is likely futile.
@baseballhs posted:I told myself I wasn’t going to post on this thread again but….
wait their turn….at most schools outside of Tennessee, when their turn comes up there is a transfer there to take it. We had a catcher, drafted late out of hs and turned it down. Waited behind a great catcher for a year, oops then a COVID year, then last year…it’s his turn, but we got a grad transfer who took the spot. The ONLY reason he got his turn was because the grad transfer got hurt and was out for the season. And the guy who would have been on the bench (again), killed it. At least at the schools I’m aware of, if you didn’t get on the field freshman year, waiting your turn is likely futile.
I don’t understand why so many people refuse to believe that what you described is true. Until it happens to them. SMH
@baseballhs posted:I told myself I wasn’t going to post on this thread again but….
wait their turn….at most schools outside of Tennessee, when their turn comes up there is a transfer there to take it. We had a catcher, drafted late out of hs and turned it down. Waited behind a great catcher for a year, oops then a COVID year, then last year…it’s his turn, but we got a grad transfer who took the spot. The ONLY reason he got his turn was because the grad transfer got hurt and was out for the season. And the guy who would have been on the bench (again), killed it. At least at the schools I’m aware of, if you didn’t get on the field freshman year, waiting your turn is likely futile.
That is how it is at Arkansas, especially in the field. If you don't start as a Freshman (excluding catcher) you need to leave. I believe there have been four starters in the last decade who didn't start as a Freshman and ended up starting later. Almost every one of them was a walk on who redshirted.
@PitchingFan posted:I don't agree that all need to go juco route. I still think the best of the best at each level, if they are playing at the right level, will play straight out of HS. We started a Friday and Sunday guy last year who were freshmen and our DH all year long was between 2 freshmen. I just think you better be good to start as a freshman and be playing at the right level. Not much different than it always has been but I think now the middle guys who may have got playing time in the past as freshmen are being revealed. The problem now more than ever is guys are not willing to wait their turn but they are also not willing to move down a level or down to the bottom teams in the right level to play as freshmen.
I didn't say all, but I did imply most
(of course legit Pro prospects, Ivy kids, service academies, etc... don't fall into the "most" category)
I think I follow college baseball pretty well, but I will admit not nearly as close as you do. However, I have to kind of agree that your frame of reference just seems off. FWIW: If your kid ends up getting the short end of the stick at Tennessee after the role he has played, then nobody is safe anymore. He has been instrumental in their program's recent success. I just believe that a lot of kids fall into the "D1 category" but soooo many things have to perfectly align for a kid to have a chance at significant playing time. The "best players at the HS level" have very little to no chance anymore when they are being compared to all of the "best players at the college level". If you have sat your freshman and sophomore years, then what in the world makes you believe you will get the chance to play when it's "your turn"? The simple fact is that coaches are now allowed to revamp their teams immediately. Whether out of good taste or not, the college coach is going to take advantage of this new opportunity or he is going to get left behind.
Seems like to me this would be a great time for current HS athletes and their parents to "pivot" their plans. They should be looking at a new angle for getting a legit opportunity to play college baseball. Juco has always provided this angle, and nevermore than in today's current landscape. Grind and PLAY, put up some decent numbers, learn how to handle the speed of the game, become a man, get the opportunity to play in a decent summer ball league, put up some decent numbers, etc...... then after 2 years of PLAYING, if you have succeeded, transfer onto the next level.
I am definitely not against juco and think it is a wise route for many to take. My son was a juco baseball coach is now a juco softball coach so I am very familiar with the importance of juco sports. It is the right fit for many players in today's world and I think some have not taken it because of the D1 or bust mentality but it is the best path for many. It was plan B for son.
I believe my son was very fortunate to recruited and play for the coaching staff he does. Most, I say this because many said it during recruiting, coaches at top 20 teams/SEC schools would not have given him a chance because he is not the high velo guy. He threw 94 last fall but when he gets 91 and over his ball gets very flat and straight. Our pitching coach told him I don't need flat and straight. I need movement on everything so let's stay 86-89 with 5 different pitches. We did our homework and found the program/coaches that he fit best with. If it had not worked out. He would have gone juco or to one of the local P5 schools.
I understand the frustration that some are feeling when they feel they have been lied to. I get it. But I also believe that except for a small few it is always a gamble when you go to college to get to play. I know there are some coaches that lie but I think that number is few. I also, from friends who are coaches, know the pressure that coaches are put under to win and win today. I don't know what I would do in many of their situations but I also know there are some honest ones who work hard to put the best team on the field no matter where they have to get them from. Players and parents should know that no coach can guarantee you playing time. You have to work hard and hope that it works out for you. But know that there is always someone waiting to take your position.
There are a lot of players that may not be happy with smaller roles and choose to leave for the better. Then people assume the coach let him go. I know of a player that felt he needed more playing time to get drafted so it was his choice to leave.
I know that you agree, most have no idea how difficult college baseball really is.
@PitchingFan posted:I am definitely not against juco and think it is a wise route for many to take. My son was a juco baseball coach is now a juco softball coach so I am very familiar with the importance of juco sports. It is the right fit for many players in today's world and I think some have not taken it because of the D1 or bust mentality but it is the best path for many. It was plan B for son.
I believe my son was very fortunate to recruited and play for the coaching staff he does. Most, I say this because many said it during recruiting, coaches at top 20 teams/SEC schools would not have given him a chance because he is not the high velo guy. He threw 94 last fall but when he gets 91 and over his ball gets very flat and straight. Our pitching coach told him I don't need flat and straight. I need movement on everything so let's stay 86-89 with 5 different pitches. We did our homework and found the program/coaches that he fit best with. If it had not worked out. He would have gone juco or to one of the local P5 schools.
I understand the frustration that some are feeling when they feel they have been lied to. I get it. But I also believe that except for a small few it is always a gamble when you go to college to get to play. I know there are some coaches that lie but I think that number is few. I also, from friends who are coaches, know the pressure that coaches are put under to win and win today. I don't know what I would do in many of their situations but I also know there are some honest ones who work hard to put the best team on the field no matter where they have to get them from. Players and parents should know that no coach can guarantee you playing time. You have to work hard and hope that it works out for you. But know that there is always someone waiting to take your position.
JUCOs have the same pros and cons as other divisions.
Like anything else, you would have to review where the school recruits from, their turnover rate and their pipeline
Note, Northeast mostly have d2 and d3 jucos
Which divisions they send players will depend
Warning, possibly dumb comment coming...
Outside of Grad transfers and Juco transfers who got consistent playing time, what's to say the kid sitting on a bench for 2 years at school X and enters the transfer portal because he's tired of his situation, is any better than the kid who sat on the bench waiting for 2 years that the coach is trying to upgrade.
I think it all depends what level your team is if you're a coach. A top P5 coach is looking for dudes who crushed it and are looking for an upgrade. A lower-level coach would probably have more interest in the guys dropping down due to no opportunities.
@HSDad22 posted:Warning, possibly dumb comment coming...
Outside of Grad transfers and Juco transfers who got consistent playing time, what's to say the kid sitting on a bench for 2 years at school X and enters the transfer portal because he's tired of his situation, is any better than the kid who sat on the bench waiting for 2 years that the coach is trying to upgrade.
Summer ball?
Teams of equal level are not taking the kids who sat for 2 years. Those kids are dropping down a level or tow.
We had two guys who were told to leave who got picked up within days by other P5s. Guys that sat at top 25 schools can sometimes stay in P5 as even within P5 there is a lot of disparity in terms of depth. We had a guy who left summer before last after only getting 10 innings. Was the Friday. Night starter at his new school and got drafted the end of that year.
@baseballhs posted:We had two guys who were told to leave who got picked up within days by other P5s. Guys that sat at top 25 schools can sometimes stay in P5 as even within P5 there is a lot of disparity in terms of depth. We had a guy who left summer before last after only getting 10 innings. Was the Friday. Night starter at his new school and got drafted the end of that year.
Indentured: The Inside Story of the Rebellion Against the NCAA by Joe Nocera
IMHO, transfer portal is a good thing, Free market principles
@baseballhs posted:We had two guys who were told to leave who got picked up within days by other P5s. Guys that sat at top 25 schools can sometimes stay in P5 as even within P5 there is a lot of disparity in terms of depth. We had a guy who left summer before last after only getting 10 innings. Was the Friday. Night starter at his new school and got drafted the end of that year.
I don't think players are necessarily told to leave. I think during exit interviews many players don't like what they hear, which is possibly for more playing time so they try to move on. IMO the only one responsible for that is the player himself. There is no guarantee anymore that you have a job because a coach recruited you, unless you have been instrumental in the teams success.
Also for those not aware, there are lots of players that want out of where they start because they want NIL and a better opportunity at the draft.
I was told that because son is a coach, I may tend to support the coaching staff. Honestly I have watched how it is at 3 different levels. The best and most consistant who hit the ball, and get hitters out always have a job.
To sdd to your story, 2 baseball players I know of went into the portal. Both P5 to same within the same conference. One of them, ended up signing as a free agent before he set foot on campus. My point is, both had opportunities but not what they were happy with, it was their choice to move on.
I am with CBI, the portal gives players an opportunity to move on, not every program is right for every player. I look at it as a good thing.
JMO
I can’t. The information you have is not the end all be all. Yes players are told to leave. Only the top 1% are leaving for better NiL I absolutely respect you but you do not understand the landscape now.
@baseballhs posted:I can’t. The information you have is not the end all be all. Yes players are told to leave. Only the top 1% are leaving for better NiL I absolutely respect you but you do not understand the landscape now.
I understand, trust me, and believe that the landscape is different everywhere.
@baseballhs posted:I can’t. The information you have is not the end all be all. Yes players are told to leave. Only the top 1% are leaving for better NiL I absolutely respect you but you do not understand the landscape now.
Agree with this. Kids are absolutely told to leave. At every college baseball program? No. At almost every top 50 D1 and top 30 D2? Yes. Especially at the schools that take over recruiting to the extreme.
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:IMHO, transfer portal is a good thing, Free market principles
Could you elaborate on how "free market principles" would be good in college baseball?
@BaseballMOM05 posted:Could you elaborate on how "free market principles" would be good in college baseball?
Coaches held all the leverage in most cases. Now players have the ability to leave if they don't like it.
You get to go where you want to go and if you are not needed you are released. That is free market principles 101. Is it right or wrong? According to who you are talking to just like on here. Some of you think what is happening in college baseball is an atrocity and others feel it is good for the colleges and the players because guys get to move up or lateral to get playing time in big time programs that they did not get out of HS but it makes guys who were recruited by those schools have to move lateral or down to get playing time. Supply and demand. It is good for some and bad for others. If you have a product that you have been selling for $10.00 but someone comes along with a better model of that same product and they can sell it for $8.00 the demand for your product becomes less and they buy the $8.00 one. You have to reduce your price (playing time) or you have to move on to another product (college). You can't compete with something that is better and cheaper (transfer portal guy). The result for the consumer is they get a better product at a cheaper price which is good for them (fans of a program). They don't care about the person who got pushed out as long as they get the better product (higher rankings, better games, going to CWS, Wins). It may not be right but it is better for most and hurts the few.
Question: How can the young player age 14-17 prepare for this current situation?
Bob
@PitchingFan - I really appreciate your response and insight. I get "free market principles" and for many reasons, I don't feel it's appropriate or fair to play with kids' emotions, future, education and money for a program to have higher rankings, wins nd better games. But, I'm just going to leave it there because it's not worth my time or energy to go into it anymore. It's a shame what college sports has become.
@PitchingFan posted:You get to go where you want to go and if you are not needed you are released. That is free market principles 101. Is it right or wrong? According to who you are talking to just like on here. Some of you think what is happening in college baseball is an atrocity and others feel it is good for the colleges and the players because guys get to move up or lateral to get playing time in big time programs that they did not get out of HS but it makes guys who were recruited by those schools have to move lateral or down to get playing time. Supply and demand. It is good for some and bad for others. If you have a product that you have been selling for $10.00 but someone comes along with a better model of that same product and they can sell it for $8.00 the demand for your product becomes less and they buy the $8.00 one. You have to reduce your price (playing time) or you have to move on to another product (college). You can't compete with something that is better and cheaper (transfer portal guy). The result for the consumer is they get a better product at a cheaper price which is good for them (fans of a program). They don't care about the person who got pushed out as long as they get the better product (higher rankings, better games, going to CWS, Wins). It may not be right but it is better for most and hurts the few.
Thanks @pitchingfan @TerribleBPthrower
IMHO, and I've stated this in a couple of subtle ways.
Since 8th grade families have spent significant $$$ on travel baseball ($7.5k to 10k) for the opportunity to get some athletic scholarship $$$. The facts are scholarships are normally only good for 1 year with renewable. The coach can say bye-bye at any time leaving said family scrambling.
This factor has always been known, the cut player just moves on, says nothing because the baseball world is a small community, and the player/family would be labeled.
In response to @BaseballMOM05
"Free market principles with kid's dreams and goals, their college education and money? Jerking kids around from school to school and playing games with their emotions and mental health? And how is that a good thing?"
They are young adults and need to grow up quickly in a changing world, the world and life is not a simple equation, the student athlete and parents should expect change and be able to pivot quickly.
And to just provide perspective, my journey developing with CBI is based on similar experiences between 2010 and 2015.
Asked a different way, why is the transfer portal a bad thing?
Should my first choice limit my ability to make a correction?
Should I be penalized for changing my mind?
There are 2 Supreme Court cases that will say no.
Ashton v NCAA (June 2021)
House v NCAA (Sept 2024)
@BaseballMOM05 posted:@PitchingFan - I really appreciate your response and insight. I get "free market principles" and for many reasons, I don't feel it's appropriate or fair to play with kids' emotions, future, education and money for a program to have higher rankings, wins nd better games. But, I'm just going to leave it there because it's not worth my time or energy to go into it anymore. It's a shame what college sports has become.
College baseball is one year renewal, so it was never on the side of the player
@CollegebaseballInsights Yes, baseball is a one year renewal as is every other collegiate sport. But, the way coaches are over recruiting and manipulating roster management with the portal is more prevalent in college baseball than other sports.
Let's just agree to disagree. We obviously see things very differently.
@Consultant posted:Question: How can the young player age 14-17 prepare for this current situation?
Bob
Plan A, B, C..... for our current HS kid... Be a good person. Be fun to be around. Don't buy into any hype. Showcase when you have something to showcase. Put a lot of time in the gym and eat. Stay clear of programs that over recruit. Be open to different options. Don't fear change. Play as long as you can, then be happy and move on with your life.
@BaseballMOM05 posted:@CollegebaseballInsights Yes, baseball is a one year renewal as is every other collegiate sport. But, the way coaches are over recruiting and manipulating roster management with the portal is more prevalent in college baseball than other sports.
Let's just agree to disagree. We obviously see things very differently.
Sorry to disagree. You are not keeping up with other sports. Look at how many starting quarterbacks were not at their school last year in the top 10 programs. I know of at least two top 10 women’s basketball programs that brought in all five starters for this coming season.
Interesting - will have to take a closer look at other sports. Is it more so just the top 10 programs or is it affecting all levels of other sports? And you are correct, I am more focused on baseball than other sports.
P5s are not one year, they are 4 if you receive scholarship your freshman year. That’s when you have to be pushed out.
The portal issue affects all sports. P5 QB’s are moving around so much it’s like musical chairs. The top programs will recruit two or three too QB’s per year. All have the ego they will be the starter. There’s only one position. I think USC has had four QB’s in four years. They’re all starting somewhere else now.
The state university in one of the states I live has a women’s basketball team that often makes the tournament. However, the location and tv visibility is undesirable. With players wanting to leave and others looking for a place to play they turned over eleven of fifteen roster spots in one year. .
@PitchingFan posted:Teams of equal level are not taking the kids who sat for 2 years. Those kids are dropping down a level or tow.
I'd say that is accurate in 98-99% of the cases. OU's backup catcher will start at Arkansas this year. Not sure how that happens but I'm guessing some pro scouts must have played a role in finding him?
@TPM posted:I don't think players are necessarily told to leave. I think during exit interviews many players don't like what they hear, which is possibly for more playing time so they try to move on. IMO the only one responsible for that is the player himself. There is no guarantee anymore that you have a job because a coach recruited you, unless you have been instrumental in the teams success.
Also for those not aware, there are lots of players that want out of where they start because they want NIL and a better opportunity at the draft.
I was told that because son is a coach, I may tend to support the coaching staff. Honestly I have watched how it is at 3 different levels. The best and most consistant who hit the ball, and get hitters out always have a job.
To sdd to your story, 2 baseball players I know of went into the portal. Both P5 to same within the same conference. One of them, ended up signing as a free agent before he set foot on campus. My point is, both had opportunities but not what they were happy with, it was their choice to move on.
I am with CBI, the portal gives players an opportunity to move on, not every program is right for every player. I look at it as a good thing.
JMO
One of my son's former teammates was told after this season at a D1 that they viewed him as a D2 talent and that it was a business decision to cut him. He was in the upper half of ERA. They cut half of the pitching staff after making the tournament.
@d-mac posted:I'd say that is accurate in 98-99% of the cases. OU's backup catcher will start at Arkansas this year. Not sure how that happens but I'm guessing some pro scouts must have played a role in finding him?
Coaches are not all bad guys. Often a coach will call someone they know to see if they need a player. This is especially true with catchers.
@BaseballMOM05 posted:@CollegebaseballInsights Yes, baseball is a one year renewal as is every other collegiate sport. But, the way coaches are over recruiting and manipulating roster management with the portal is more prevalent in college baseball than other sports.
Let's just agree to disagree. We obviously see things very differently.
How many players actually have transferred?
How many players entered the transfer portal do to coaching changes?
what sports are you comparing to?
Do you know the actual number of D1 players?
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:How many players actually have transferred?
How many players entered the transfer portal do to coaching changes?
what sports are you comparing to?
Do you know the actual number of D1 players?
Really? Lol! Let it go. I'm so over this conversation with you. I don't have the time or energy to argue with you anymore. Good day!
@BaseballMOM05 posted:Really? Lol! Let it go. I'm so over this conversation with you. I don't have the time or energy to argue with you anymore. Good day!
Not an argument, simple debate.
Remove the emotion of "kids", dreams , goals, etc.
Student athletes "Welcome to the real world", life isn't fair p5 school has it is about winning when millions of $$$ are in play.
For those that are against the transfer portal would probably be for it if their student athlete wanted a change of scenery
Agreed CBI. For every kid that may have been hurt by the Transfer Portal there are also players that have been blessed by it to go to a better place and/or get out of a bad situation. I can't help but look at Sonny D from Auburn last year who got so much more attention than he had at his mid major team in the previous years. I can name player after player. I'm sure the Ohuna young man who is now at Tennessee will get a lot more exposure than his previous school and the same with all the kids at LSU. In life, most decisions are good for one person and bad for another. How many of us are glad we broke up with someone to end up marrying someone else?
O's Fan:
If the young player is physically and mentally capable, I would suggest "playing up" whenever possible. Age 15 play the 16-18 year old players. This will prepare the player to adjust to the quicker College team in one to three years.
At our local JC and Division 2 College the reflex action required by Freshman to compete on the practice field is the separator.
15 to 20 "red shirt" players are not uncommon for College teams in Northern California.
Bob