Throwing Mechanics

How much angle is in your arm isn't as much an issue as "how it got there".

But, the arm isn't usually the main ingredient to a better pop time. Neither are the feet. You say you are 14 so maybe there are some issues there. But, I bet you'll get a better pop time by using your body better and leaving your feet still.

Linear

if the feet are still arent you saying throw "all arm" ?-- the body cannot function if not moving and for the body to properly move the feet have to move.

As I'm thinking about it, there are basically 3 ways to throw. The first is to receive the ball w/feet set and rotate the glove chin, nose, ear. The body flexing or loading and then the uncoiling along with a strong arm enables a quick throw and a low pop time. The feet are preset or at least a "base" is created before the ball is received. (I hope this description makes sense.) Some teach the T drill where the feet shift, the butt stays low, the body pivots and the feet move from the horizontal T to the vertical T. Finally, some teach the Catch & step then throw. The fastest of these is the first but again, requires a strong arm. Naturally, if you have a stronger core, then you can make up for some arm deficiencies. I believe that the second option is the most taught. The 3rd option is taught by some but I believe it is more suited for pitchouts than the receiving of a normal pitch. JMHO!

Even though I am a pitcher, I would say that the "pirate" way sounds fine. It is how my catcher throws, so I guess it is common.

You should be throwing with your elblow slightlyabove your shoulder and the angle of your elbow slightly opened beyond 90 degrees to 90 degrees.

I'm a believer that people who throw with a closed up arm and their hand next to their ear are not going to throw up to their potential. If you watch MLB catchers and minor league catchers, they don't throw from their ear. They throw the "Pirate" way, as you've described it.

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Originally posted by CoachB25:
...The fastest of these is the first but again, requires a strong arm...

There are many things misunderstood about baseball skills. This has to rank #1. It may be tied with others but nothing is more misunderstood.

Give me a kid with a 75mph arm, hustle, desire to learn and work, and I'll get you a 2.0 pop time within the season and sub 2.0 after a year.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Linear

if the feet are still arent you saying throw "all arm" ?-- the body cannot function if not moving and for the body to properly move the feet have to move.

This is completely false. That's the nice version of what I wanted to write.

Coach was referring to the load and throw. While receiving the ball the catcher is kind of sitting back on his right foot while lifting and positioning his left leg. As he receives the ball he is moving his hands into position for a throw. He does have to possess a strong arm as most youngsters I have worked with have trouble getting off a good throw this way. A lot of it has to do with core strength. When working with older players, they are physically stronger through the core and they can handle. The most common throw we use for younger catchers (high school soph and younger) is the jump pivot. In that move the feet are going from square to the pitcher to a jump pivot move where the left foot is facing 2b. This should be a turn on an axis, where the catcher does not move his body but repositions his feet.

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Originally posted by Coachric:
...He does have to possess a strong arm as most youngsters I have worked with have trouble getting off a good throw this way...

Do you consider 75mph arm a strong arm?

The jump pivot by far requires the strongest arm because it is the slowest release. When most jump and pivot they lose the load in their hips. Therefore, they have to reload, therefore they are slow, therefore they need a strong arm.

The only people who say the "load and throw" requires a strong arm do not know how to "load and throw".......or better said "when" to "load and throw".

Finally, it has little to do with core strength and much to do with core "technique".

Agree linear>

Direct and to the point> no wasted moves behind the dish. Wasted moves create wasted time-TICtoc

Time is vital in the pop-to-pop.

Shep Cares

Having played catcher for 15+ years at all levels of baseball, I must say that there are still a lot of mistruths about throwing. The "pivot" and throw (Linear's #1 Fav.) is by far the most taxing on your arm. I do teach this to my kids when receiving a ball on the outside of the plate because the ball automatically loads the body. However, you can still achieve sub 2.0 pop times with a "jump-pivot". The problem with most catcher's jump-pivots are that they never gain ground towards 2B, thus they have to use all arm (Just like the pivot throw). The most efficient manner of throwing to 2B with the least amount of stress on the arm is to do a jump-pivot where your right heel turns into the pitcher and the left foot jabs forward towards 2B. This allows for momentum to help get the ball through the bag without the ball tailing or sailing on you. I had a legitimate 1.75-1.80 average with those mechanics and I have a huge chunk of my HS/College guys under 2.0 with the same footwork.
As for hands...Throwing is throwing...you can't shortcut the arm motion and expect to produce the results you want. That being said, a catcher should load from the center of his body (as a pitcher would) and get fully extended to allow the arm to "whip". The difference comes in that the catcher's load will be shorter and more direct to extension where a pitcher might drop the ball down and then take it back to extension. This allows for maximum velocity behind the baseball with the quickest release time.

Catchers do not loose the load in their hips if the jump pivot is taught correctly. Linear, which news publication do you work for. Just like a journalist, you take out of context. Yes, a lot has to do with core strength and core technique. If a kid has a weak core, he won't have much tecnique to offer. Any other particular words I've left out. 1 question for you as you been asked many and answered very little. How many catchers have you trained successfully? I will volunteer that I have taught over 200 cathcers and all improved their pop times and many have played college ball and beyond. CoachA the manner with which you suggest a cathcer throw most efficiently is often referred to as Load and Throw. I beleive it is the best, but as I noted, many youngsters don't grasp it so easily.

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Originally posted by Linear:

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Originally posted by CoachB25:
...The fastest of these is the first but again, requires a strong arm...

There are many things misunderstood about baseball skills. This has to rank #1. It may be tied with others but nothing is more misunde

Give me a kid with a 75mph arm, hustle, desire to learn and work, and I'll get you a 2.0 pop time within the season and sub 2.0 after a year.

Richard we have discussed this before and if you remember, believe it or not, for the most part we agree. I do say that the feet are offset somewhat on the reciept of the ball and I haven't ever heard your position on the position of the feet. Concerning the strong arm. Again, we had this discussion a couple of years ago when you were Rshard or Teacherman or... Then and again now, I mistakenly typed "strong" when I should have said mature per distance throwing to second.. As we once argued, the arm isn't neary as important as the coil or rotation or... whatever you want to term it and we also agreed that the quickness of the release negated the necessity of " pure strength." In our last arugment on this we then argued whether younger players have the core strength and whether they knew how to use it effectively enough to prevent them from throwing with just their arms as TR suggest. This is a valid question. Finally, we discussed and I believe I am correct that the glove to chin, nose, ear was necessary for the coil or rotation and put the arm in the most efficient slot. You might recall that I referenced Coach Morgan's (Indiana) presentation on cathing on this concept. Then again, you might want to argue all of this. (LOL!)

To spark your memory further on this argument from the past, you commented that you'd come over and have my catchers thowing faster pop times in one practice. I mentioned that I had a sub 2 D-1 signed catcher. I'd have loved to have you come over.

I read some statements on this thread that led me to believe that a catcher should "anticipate" or "pre-set" his feet before the pitch gets to him when a runner is stealing, in order to position for the throw better.

My son was always taught not to do this, lest he take a strike away from the pitcher. I remember once last summer when the coach told him to stay down until the pitch got to him, I asked "Do you want the strike, or the out?" and he responded: "I want both!"

When I look at MLB catchers, my impression is they don't set their feet for the throw until they have the ball. I know I have seen sub 2.0's in games from them doing it this way, because I timed the throw downs using the frame by frame feature of TIVO. (Which, in case anybody doesn't have it, is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. It is far, far better than sliced bread.)

I just this week found a video of my son my wife took last summer (he was 14 at the time) in a game, LH batter, pitch almost in the dirt, threw a 2.09 (measured by the number of frames it took for the ball to go from pop to pop.) He stayed completely down until the ball was in his glove. (He pretty much had to, since the pitch was so low.

That tells me if a 14 year old can be sub 2.1 staying down, why should college and pro catchers set their feet and risk losing the strike call?

When teaching catchers, first I always preach getting the strike or catching the ball first. Its a no brainer. But an exceptional receiver can begin to load his feet while keeping the mitt in place. Watch I-rod or the Molina's. Check many catchers on tv with a runner on and a foul ball is hit. During the slowmo replay you can see then react to the runner breaking before they have the ball. This is very hard to teach. You have to recognize the kids who have the ability to do it.

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Originally posted by CoachB25:
I do say that the feet are offset somewhat on the reciept of the ball

I have no idea what you mean by offset feet. Therefore, it's a nonissue. It has nothing to do with the proper technique.

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I haven't ever heard your position on the position of the feet.

Right foot never moves. Anytime catcher moves his rigt foot, his release time will be slower than mine.

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mature per distance throwing to second..

I'll ask you since the other guy didn't want to respond. Is 75mph a strong arm?

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we then argued whether younger players have the core strength and whether they knew how to use it effectively enough to prevent them from throwing with just their arms as TR suggest.

This conversation never took place. Define young. A player at any level (say 12-13 and up)can perform my throwing technique and be successful. Core technique is the issue.....not core strength.

As much as you claim to know it is quite obvious you don't know how to rotate effectively.....or you wouldn't make the comments you do.

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glove to chin, nose, ear was necessary for the coil or rotation and put the arm in the most efficient slot.

A non teach. The pitch location will tell you where your glove goes. The coil happens before you ever catch the ball. How can it have anything to do with rotation.

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you commented that you'd come over and have my catchers thowing faster pop times in one practice

Again, this was never said. I did say on a softball field, I would bet a C note that I could get the ball to second as fast as your starter. Softball field because at 51 I have no arm strength. But, it would still demonstrate the quickness difference between your technique and mine. And you quietly went away. I'll bet another benjamin that I have at least as good a release time as your starter using a drill similar to Catching Coaches drill.

I'll give you more to critcize me on. A catcher should never get up on his haunches. You are much quicker from the lower stance. Whether blocking or throwing.

Linear

You twist and turn like a dirty sheet in the wind-- no substance at all--merely degradation of any poster who questions your knowledge, or better yet--lack of it.

Simple fact---your techniques are not gospel !!! wake up to the fact that there are others who know more than you think you do

We can talk fancy terms and semantics here all day. Its what we teach on the field and the results we see that make the only difference. Softball field!!! I thought we were talking baseball here.

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Right foot never moves. Anytime catcher moves his rigt foot, his release time will be slower than mine.

Linear: is what you are saying here that the catcher should simply pivot off a stationary right foot after catching the ball to throw down?

I'll admit that I am just a dad, and don't have any expertise other than having listened to my son's coaches when they have taught him the proper footwork.

Never have they taught him to keep the right foot planted. Am I misunderstanding what you mean here?

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A catcher should never get up on his haunches. You are much quicker from the lower stance. Whether blocking or throwing.

By this do you mean that the catcher should not have a different stance when a man is on base vs. when bases are empty? This, too I have never heard from any catching coach my son has worked with.

Nor is it the approach that I see when I watch MLB catchers. Am I misunderstanding what you mean?

Richard, your remarks were on a PM we sent back and forth on this subject. If you don't delete them check out what you sent. To make this point or any other point on what was said, I don't need to ever put pm messages on this site. I've given it a good try. I've never deleted anything you've said, never censored anything and have always attempted to do the right thing. Your last statement implies that I have lied about what you said. You did pm me exactly what I stated. There was absolutely no reference to softball. Again, I will not post that pm either with or without your permission since that is unacceptable to me. I believe it is too bad we can't get along.

As per any and all that you state on this site. You have the luxury of the arm-chair quarterback who can second guess any and everyone. You NEVER have to produce any results and you don't.

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

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Right foot never moves. Anytime catcher moves his rigt foot, his release time will be slower than mine.

Linear: is what you are saying here that the catcher should simply pivot off a stationary right foot after catching the ball to throw down?

Yes. But that right foot has to be in the right spot.

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Am I misunderstanding what you mean here?

No.

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A catcher should never get up on his haunches. You are much quicker from the lower stance. Whether blocking or throwing.

If you stay in the "no base runner" stance (your words) your right foot is in the exact spot it needs to be.

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By this do you mean that the catcher should not have a different stance when a man is on base vs. when bases are empty?

Yes

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This, too I have never heard from any catching coach my son has worked with.

Doesn't surprise me. Yet, they teach it to everyone else. Infielders use my technique routinely. Is the shortstop, trying to make a play from the hole under any more stress than a catcher trying to throw a runner out? They act like throwing from the catching position is different than throwing from any other position. Throwing is throwing. The load/unload of the pelvic area is where it's at when talking quick releases.

Stand at homeplate, shoulders in line with 2B and Home, facing 1B, athletic position, feet spread......now turn and throw to 2B with noting more than a short jab step with the left foot.(don't really need that). MOST can not get the ball there with any thing on it. I can get it there with everything on it. I know how to load/unload my pelvis. Any and all linear action a catcher takes to throw to 2B reduces his pop time. Be the gyroscope!!!

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Nor is it the approach that I see when I watch MLB catchers. Am I misunderstanding what you mean?

This summarizes the entire point. The "lost" claim my technique requires a very strong arm. Yet, I can produce 2.0 and under pop times with it............and a 75mph arm. Notice how no one will answer the question about whether a 75mph arm is a strong arm.

The "facts" are, mlb players can use the technique they do because of the strength of their arms.

However, I would love to have an audience with one of them one time. He just might become the greatest throwing catcher ever.

Linear...You are my hero (no sarcasm intended)..I really enjoy your stuff for the mechanical information and the entertainment value is also great......and as you noted earlier "it's free".

Did you miss the sign?

"Don't feed the animals".

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Notice how no one will answer the question about whether a 75mph arm is a strong arm.

I don't think anyone is intentionally avoiding this question as if it is controversial or something. Seems to me that 75 is a just above average arm for a high schooler from the catcher position. Certainly not among the strongest. Just look at the PG data. There are mid 80's arms from catcher (although rare.) WE discussed this a month ago or so on one thread as I recall.

There sure is no problem at all getting a 75mph arm to have 2.0 pop time. As long as the release is in .67 seconds or so, 75 mph muzzle velocity results in a 2.0, if I am remembering the thread correctly.

As for your throwing technique from the catcher position, I would sure like to see it. Have any video clips of someone who uses it?

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
...I don't think anyone is intentionally avoiding this question as if it is controversial or something...

How can you come to that conclusion?

75 mph is a very average arm at the high school level. No one would call it a strong arm.

Yet, those who claim they know something about catching say the technique I teach requires a strong arm.

And, I've developed a pop time of under 2.0 with "my" technique.

If I can develop an under 2.0 pop time with my technique using a 75mph arm, it clearly does not require a "strong arm".

Of course, some are not interested in "facts".

If they admit 75mph is not a strong arm they are also admitting my technique doesn't require a strong arm.......and to do that they also have to say......"I'm wrong."

Linear

Facts my patootie--you never have facts -- you have your opinion about what you think you know---where are these catchers you have taught who have "developed" an under 2.0 time from your technique

Most are interested in "facts" but you have none to offer--cmon big guy give us examples of your profound knowledge--who are the players you have developed ?

Maybe you can say it for them.

75 mph is average arm strength.

I don't see what the big deal is to have figured out a technique in which a catcher can throw 2.0 with a 75 mile an hour velocity. Seems to me that is quite unremarkable.

75 MPH release velocity results in an average velocity of about 68.5 MPH, which is almost exactly 100 feet per second. That means the ball takes just under 1.3 seconds to travel 127 feet to second base.

So, any release time under .7 seconds will get a 2.0 pop time. That is not an incredibly fast release time.

So I don't see why it would be so amazing that you've developed some "new" technique that accomplishes what has been routinely accomplished by other techniques.

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I don't see what the big deal is to have figured out a technique in which a catcher can throw 2.0 with a 75 mile an hour velocity. Seems to me that is quite unremarkable.

75 MPH release velocity results in an average velocity of about 68.5 MPH, which is almost exactly 100 feet per second. That means the ball takes just under 1.3 seconds to travel 127 feet to second base.

So, any release time under .7 seconds will get a 2.0 pop time. That is not an incredibly fast release time.

So I don't see why it would be so amazing that you've developed some "new" technique that accomplishes what has been routinely accomplished by other techniques.

Apparently you haven't read or can't understand what you've read.

I'll spell it out for you.

The "lost" are claiming my technique requires a strong arm.

It does not. That is my point......they don't know what they are talking about.

And, yes, many others have developed catchers, using whatever technique they use, whose pop times are 2.0 or less with 75 mph arm. Again, that's not my point.

Got it.

OK, I now see what you are trying to argue.

Frankly, it seems like a very silly point to be all hung up on, but OK.

The significance of the point is......

If they have a 75mph arm, and they are teaching the jump pivot, they are teaching the wrong technique.

They ought to be teaching this one.

That's one reason I asked if you have any video or other way to illustrate precisely what the technique is, because I am still unclear on it.

Or do any MLB catchers use it that I can look at?

I have just received a prelim copy of new book on catching techniques which is done by a Division I coach who was a Division I catcher--great stuff--for those parents and coaches interested in technique etc it is must reading complete with pictures and diagrams for stance etc

I hope to shortly have info on how and where to purchase the book.

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Originally posted by Linear:
How much angle is in your arm isn't as much an issue as "how it got there".

But, the arm isn't usually the main ingredient to a better pop time. Neither are the feet. You say you are 14 so maybe there are some issues there. But, I bet you'll get a better pop time by using your body better and leaving your feet still.

Linear,With all due respect I disagree.Infact my coach would tell you its your feet and footwork that get your throws quicker.You pop up at an angle, bring the ball at your ear and come through thus you should end up infront of the plate.Thats what Ive been taught and whats being taught around here.Using mainly your arm wont help you throw out many baserunners.

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Originally posted by futurecatcher27:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Linear:
How much angle is in your arm isn't as much an issue as "how it got there".

But, the arm isn't usually the main ingredient to a better pop time. Neither are the feet. You say you are 14 so maybe there are some issues there. But, I bet you'll get a better pop time by using your body better and leaving your feet still.

Listen to your coach then. But...

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In fact my coach would tell you its your feet and footwork that get your throws quicker

Not necessarily true.

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...thus you should end up infront of the plate.

A major red flag. And I do mean MAJOR.

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Using mainly your arm wont help you throw out many baserunners.

Who said this? I didn't. I said use your body correctly.

Use your noggin and make your decision on what to do.

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A major red flag. And I do mean MAJOR.

Your momentum should take you forward after you throw.Not moving your feet at all isnt a good idea(dont know if thats what you said or not)

future C27, what part of oklahoma you from?

75mph for a catcher is not average. It is above average at the HS level. The same kid that has 75mph throws from the catchers posistion will throw much harder with a crow hop or wind up from the hill. A 2.0 pop is outstanding and considered the bench mark for D-1 level catchers. A true 2.0 accurate. Also wouldnt it depend on the age of the catcher wether their velocity was good average or poor? Just like a pitchers fastball would be avg at 80 for a JR but outstanding for an 8th grader? There are kids that have average arms for catchers say Jr Sr in HS but have very good pop times because they have outstanding mechanics behind the plate. And their are kids with great arms that have poor pop times because of poor mechanics. Go back to PG site and look at the velocity for catchers and then look at pop times you will see that the facts bear this out. And you will see that the vast majority of kids are well below 75 mph on velocity. Because the vast majority are not 2.0 they are above that. The average pop time for a Jr Sr in HS is around 2.25. Average mind you. To say that the average catcher in HS is a 2.0 is like saying the average pitcher in HS is upper 80's. My son as a freshman was 76mph with a consistent 2.0 pop. He is in the 1.9 range consistently now with a 80mph velocity rating as a soph. I have personally seen kids that were 74mph with 1.9 pop times with outstanding footwork and great transfers and release times. How many catchers have you guys actually gunned? Do you really know what the average catcher throws? Ive timed catchers at so many games and showcase events its ridiculous. Some kids rely on great arms. Some kid rely on great mechanics. And some kids put both together. But the vast majority lack arm strength and good mechanics. That is why you see so many kids with 2.3 to 2.5 pop times in HS.

Coach May...I guess that I should be thankful that my son now has both. At first he relied on his great footwork or mechanics but as he matured and his arm stregth improved he now as a senior in HS is at 1.90 consistant and his throws are clocked between 82-84 mph. IMHO if you develope great mechanics and build arm strength along the way you should turnout to be a pretty good catcher. Son will be going to an SEC school in the fall so I would recommend this formula to everyone!