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Tired of MLB players not knowing how to teach fundamentals

P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Guess it's just what one sees... I see the belt buckle staying level until contact. To raise the belt buckle would take raising the legs. Most hitting experts would say that is a no-no. It is better to actually lower the path of the belt buckle, rather than raise it, to keep the legs involved. Raising would eliminate the legs and make hitting an off speed pitch very difficult. JMO, but it is shared by others.




PG,

Watch the on deck hitter and Bonds' belt buckle in relation to each other. His belt buckle goes down as he moves out and the knee turns forward keeping the load in his rear hip, as he reaches "go", he thrusts upward and forward to yank his hands forward. As he breaks the cusp, his belt buckle moves upward, ending up almost at the on deck hitter's head. Where did it start from as his barrel started forward?
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Bluedog,

Would you call Don Slaught an expert?

Check some video of this year's American League MVP.

Here's another guy that's a pretty "great" hitter.Ramirez

Just as in some of your video clips, I only see the belt buckle raise at or after contact, not before.

My only question was regarding what you said here...
quote:
When the back hip thrusts forward and upward to begin the forward swing

What's with the "old" most hitting experts are incompetent statement. Is it only the non experts who know anything? How does anyone learn anything if all the experts are incompetent? How did anyone become a great hitter? If it happens just naturally, there's no need to even discuss hitting theory.

I respect your opinions, but you show no respect for those who are considered experts by most everyone in baseball, while at the same time try to explain how someone should hit.

If you don't know Don Slaught, call RightView Pro and talk to him sometime. I think you will be surprised. He will not only tell you how it's done, but he will tell you why it is done that way. You might even learn something. Isn't that what all us students of the game desire?




I've watched Slaught's stuff on RVP and he has some good thoughts, but he misses the biggest piece of the puzzle, IMO, and that is the rearward arc of the barrel and the use of the hands.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
I now understand that we are talking about two different things.

I will also say that I believe no one on earth has studied more video of major league hitters. Heck, he even invented RightViewPro for that purpose.

I do consider him an expert on what happens in the swing and really wish he would post here. He doesn't just say this is how it is done, he explains why it is done that way and what happens if it is not done that way. And I believe he does understand the use of the hands.

Truth is after all these years, I'm still learning. In fact, even Don Slaught would say he is still learning. Does anyone really have it all figured out yet? If so, that guy should be worth a fortune!
td25td2510+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
I always felt that there is more than one way of being a good hitter--there is not just one method


X2 I agree.

I was just watching the MLB channel over Thanksgiving, and they were showing a replay of the 1971 MLB All Star Game. Those players seemed to have completely different hitting styles than the players do today. They weren't any better or worse of hitters than todays players.

Most players today look a little like robots, and there is way too much of trying to mold everyone into the same style, instead of finding your own style of hitting and what works best for you.
Last edited by td25
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by td25:
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
I always felt that there is more than one way of being a good hitter--there is not just one method


X2 I agree.

I was just watching the MLB channel over Thanksgiving, and they were showing a replay of the 1971 MLB All Star Game. Those players seemed to have completely different hitting styles than the players do today. They weren't any better or worse of hitters than todays players.

Most players today look a little like robots, and there is way too much of trying to mold everyone into the same style, instead of finding your own style of hitting and what works best for you.




Style is one thing and mechanics are another thing. One is personal the other is absolute. The best hitters in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, all did and do the same thing mechanically.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
power,

That's a good point, but I would say they all do "some" of the same things mechanically. It's those things that we should gear in on. Just as all pitchers don't do exactly the same thing mechanically.




This may sound strange to you, but great Pitchers and great hitters ALL do the same thing mechanically to do what they do. By this, I mean they all get separation between the rear hip and hands, they keep their weight back and balanced over their rear leg as they move out, and they direct all of their energy towards the target. They all have complete control of their abs, glutes, hands and go frame of the swing or throw. Great hitters create the stretch and separation between the rear hip turning/moving forward as the ball or barrel moves rearward. Now, do they all do that the same way? You know the answer to that, but that is where style comes in, personal preference, how THEY can best accomplish that task.
Last edited by powertoallfields
td25td2510+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
power,

That's a good point, but I would say they all do "some" of the same things mechanically. It's those things that we should gear in on. Just as all pitchers don't do exactly the same thing mechanically.


This is a true statement.

Watching a replay of the 1971 & 1972 All Star Games, I noticed some differences in mechanics between the hitting styles of players like Rod Caru & Pete Rose vs. Players like Roberto Clemente & Willie Stargel. It wasn't just style differences, there were mechanical differences.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by td25:
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
power,

That's a good point, but I would say they all do "some" of the same things mechanically. It's those things that we should gear in on. Just as all pitchers don't do exactly the same thing mechanically.


This is a true statement.

Watching a replay of the 1971 & 1972 All Star Games, I noticed some differences in mechanics between the hitting styles of players like Rod Caru & Pete Rose vs. Players like Roberto Clemente & Willie Stargel. It wasn't just style differences, there were mechanical differences.




Would you mind putting the clips up and telling me the differences?
td25td2510+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by powertoallfields:
quote:
Originally posted by td25:
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
power,

That's a good point, but I would say they all do "some" of the same things mechanically. It's those things that we should gear in on. Just as all pitchers don't do exactly the same thing mechanically.


This is a true statement.

Watching a replay of the 1971 & 1972 All Star Games, I noticed some differences in mechanics between the hitting styles of players like Rod Caru & Pete Rose vs. Players like Roberto Clemente & Willie Stargel. It wasn't just style differences, there were mechanical differences.




Would you mind putting the clips up and telling me the differences?


Watched it on the MLB channel on TV, not the internet. Basically Carew & Rose didn't c0ck their hips or take a stride. Carew didn't c0ck his hands back either, they were pretty still until he swung forward. This contrasted Clemente and Stargell who both cocked their hips prior to their long strides, and both cocked their hands back. Just one example that stood out to me.

Basically Carew and Rose didn't really seem to "load up" prior to their swings, or barely did. They seemed more like arm swingers, where Clemente & Stargell were the opposite. Hard to argue with the results for any of these guys.
Last edited by td25
P Prime91,000+ posts
Power .....

You are exactamente! The best Coach I ever read; Coach Newton (as in Sir Isaac and his absolute Laws Of Motion) dictates that in all movements of Power, the mechanics must be the same. I agree that throwing a baseball 90+ and hitting a baseball to and beyond the gaps, require power (Power = Mass x Speed squared).

Now to styles, Carew and Ichiro, in their styles, are taking advantage of their speed and have adapted mechanics to get the results they desire. The "Load", and use of the bottom half aren't as pronounced as those who desire to hit with power (so says Quincy; Clemente and Stargell). I grew up watching Clemente in Spring training, what a treat!!
Last edited by Prime9
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
Now to styles, Carew and Ichiro, in their styles, are taking advantage of their speed and have adapted mechanics to get the results they desire.


I would agree with that completely!

Surely Ichiro would have to be considered a "great" hitter. He has different mechanics AND style than someone like Stargell. This should be very obvious when studying video. So all great hitters do not use identical mechanics. Yet, there are certain things they all do the same way.

Also does anyone have a video clip of Roberto Clemente's swing that they could post? I believe his swing would be very interesting to analize and discuss.

Maybe I'm a bit confused in what falls into the style category and the mechanics category. IMO mechanics involve most everything the body parts do to get to a certain position, rather than simply doing a few certain things like getting to that position.

If one pitcher throws overhand and another sidearm, there are certain principles that stay the same, but if I bend at the waste to throw sidearm, I am using different mechanics IMO. There are still certain things that will be the same, but not all things.

I'm not disputing what some are saying here, other than the definition of mechanics when it comes to all who are successful at throwing or hitting a baseball.

Using an extreme example... Tim Wakefield has a different "style" than other pitchers... are his "mechanics" identical to other successful pitchers?
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
PG - I agree with you on Stargell. Look, if Clemente is my all-time favorite, Stargell is right up there with him as far as the types of players I loved as a kid.

One criticism I have of this forum is that many use players like Bonds and Sheffield as the model on how young players ought to hit. Those are indeed great hitters no doubt. I believe players like Ichiro, Carew, Brett, Rose, Cobb, Ruth, Williams and many other prove there is no exact right way however. Who could possibly argue that Ichiro is not one of the greatest hitters that any one of us has ever seen? At the same time, I am not sure I try and train someone to hit like Ichiro. Does that make any sense to anyone?

One other point that is often lost on Ichiro is he has a CANNON of an arm along with excellent speed. I believe Ichiro is a Hall of Famer someday even if his career ends tomorrow.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
P Prime91,000+ posts
CD,

Thanks for the Clemente footage! I can't tell you how many school days I skipped growing up, to see him in Spring training workouts and games. Without a doubt, the best arm I've ever seen! Ichiro is a close second in fielding. He generates arm speed and foot speed that belies his slight stature. I too, wouldn't teach his hitting style. He relies on tremedous hand-eye timing to just get the ball in play. Believe he once again led the majors in infield hit (56 or so). But, I have seen him in BP, specifically trying to "drive the ball," and he could hit that way.

Clemente is a great example to use for hitting. He was a "front foot" hitter long before people knew that may be a good thing.

Have a look at PG's post of Ichiro in high school. Very interesting to see how much more bottom half torque he was creating there, just what I've seen him do in BP or if he wants to!!
Last edited by Prime9
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
Prime - we used to have an MLB scout who posted here - bbscout. If I recall correctly, he liked Larry Walker even more than Clemente. I never got to see Walker play in his prime so I really don't know. Either way, I am sticking with Clemente Smile

I think there are lots and lots of successful hitters who are not classic textbook hitters like Ken Griffey Jr. and what not. I believe players need to find their own styles which are successful for themselves. Sometimes that means inventing their own unique styles and other times it may be emulating other styles.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
CD,

Thanks for the Clemente footage! I can't tell you how many school days I skipped growing up, to see him in Spring training workouts and games. Without a doubt, the best arm I've ever seen! Ichiro is a close second in fielding. He generates arm speed and foot speed that belies his slight stature. I too, wouldn't teach his hitting style. He relies on tremedous hand-eye timing to just get the ball in play. Believe he once again led the majors in infield hit (56 or so). But, I have seen him in BP, specifically trying to "drive the ball," and he could hit that way.

Clemente is a great example to use for hitting. He was a "front foot" hitter long before people knew that may be a good thing.

Have a look at PG's post of Ichiro in high school. Very interesting to see how much more bottom half torque he was creating there, just what I've seen him do in BP or if he wants to!!




To create torque, you have to have equal tension on both sides of the pivot point. "Great hitters" have two pivot points that are torqued, they are the hands and the REAR hip. That is the MECHANICS of a high level swing. How you create the torque is mechanics. Those two pivot points must work together to create stretch and they do that by working in opposite directions of each other. There are many different ways to create that stretch and different ways to sync the two and that is STYLE! And yes, PG, Ichiro does it too.

Oh...and no...Clemente wasn't a "front foot" hitter!
Last edited by powertoallfields
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
PG - I agree with you on Stargell. Look, if Clemente is my all-time favorite, Stargell is right up there with him as far as the types of players I loved as a kid.

One criticism I have of this forum is that many use players like Bonds and Sheffield as the model on how young players ought to hit. Those are indeed great hitters no doubt. I believe players like Ichiro, Carew, Brett, Rose, Cobb, Ruth, Williams and many other prove there is no exact right way however. Who could possibly argue that Ichiro is not one of the greatest hitters that any one of us has ever seen? At the same time, I am not sure I try and train someone to hit like Ichiro. Does that make any sense to anyone?

One other point that is often lost on Ichiro is he has a CANNON of an arm along with excellent speed. I believe Ichiro is a Hall of Famer someday even if his career ends tomorrow.




I'll go one step further. Ichiro, may very well be the best all around player of all time.
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
Oh...and no...Clemente wasn't a "front foot" hitter!


Probably a difference in Semantecs and I don't want to get into the heavy mechanics debate. But a hitter that finishes with his weight forward (this MUST happen to clear way for the hips to fire, knee & foot FOLLOW the hips) is in my language, a front foot hitter. Pretty visible on the Clemente video. That's the example "Trillion" cited earlier that he was seeing on tapes of many of the better hitters ("finishing with weight forward and back foot was not touching at all, or with just the toe"). They, bottom half rotational hitters, come down on the ball, create backspin, hit lots of "ropes" and do drive it out when they "miss" the center of the baseball. Additionally, their mass is already beginning to move forward out of the batters box (that too is good!).
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
To create torque, you have to have equal tension on both sides of the pivot point. "Great hitters" have two pivot points that are torqued, they are the hands and the REAR hip. That is the MECHANICS of a high level swing. How you create the torque is mechanics. Those two pivot points must work together to create stretch and they do that by working in opposite directions of each other.


Power, not sure how the above relates to my discussion with CD. Any who .... your statement is confusing to me. It's obvious you know of which you speak. I think, however, that by definition you can only pivot on one axis. The stretch and rotation, in the load, is created by the seperation of the front side (generally the front foot stride or action) from the rear hip and hands loading back. If you are saying that seperation should occur between the back hip and hands then I strongly agree, to disagree! The result of doing that is what I would call "leaking your power." Kind of like when a hitter gets fooled by a great off-speed pitch. His mechanics are now out of sync; the hips have opened and foreward weight shift has occurred. He, however through great skill, was able to keep his hands back and "muscle or slap the ball into play. You can't generate power from that position with those mechanics.
Last edited by Prime9
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
quote:
To create torque, you have to have equal tension on both sides of the pivot point. "Great hitters" have two pivot points that are torqued, they are the hands and the REAR hip. That is the MECHANICS of a high level swing. How you create the torque is mechanics. Those two pivot points must work together to create stretch and they do that by working in opposite directions of each other.


Power, not sure how the above relates to my discussion with CD. Any who .... your statement is confusing to me. It's obvious you know of which you speak. I think, however, that by definition you can only pivot on one axis. The stretch and rotation, in the load, is created by the seperation of the front side (generally the front foot stride or action) from the rear hip and hands loading back. If you are saying that seperation should occur between the back hip and hands then I strongly agree, to disagree! The result of doing that is what I would call "leaking your power." Kind of like when a hitter gets fooled by a great off-speed pitch. His mechanics are now out of sync; the hips have opened and foreward weight shift has occurred. He, however through great skill, was able to keep his hands back and "muscle or slap the ball into play. You can't generate power from that position with those mechanics.




The barrel pivots around the hands and the torso pivots on top of the rear hip and weighted rear leg. The swing weights the front foot. The swing transfers the weight. Great hitters do not shift to the front side and then swing.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
quote:
Oh...and no...Clemente wasn't a "front foot" hitter!


Probably a difference in Semantecs and I don't want to get into the heavy mechanics debate. But a hitter that finishes with his weight forward (this MUST happen to clear way for the hips to fire, knee & foot FOLLOW the hips) is in my language, a front foot hitter. Pretty visible on the Clemente video. That's the example "Trillion" cited earlier that he was seeing on tapes of many of the better hitters ("finishing with weight forward and back foot was not touching at all, or with just the toe"). They, bottom half rotational hitters, come down on the ball, create backspin, hit lots of "ropes" and do drive it out when they "miss" the center of the baseball. Additionally, their mass is already beginning to move forward out of the batters box (that too is good!).




The hips fire before the weight shifts in a high level swing.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
I understand where you’re coming from. But in this case I would have to say Phil Neikro was a “great” pitcher as well as a great competitor. Results rather than mechanics are what create “greatness”. Let’s at least agree that he was a “great” knuckleball pitcher.

Neikro is in the Hall of Fame and he won 318 games with a lifetime ERA of 3.35. He had over 3,000 strikeouts and gave up about 400 hits less than innings pitched in a 24 year MLB career. He led the league in strikeouts in 1977 and finished second in 1978. He led the league with a 1.87 ERA in 1967. He threw 45 shutouts. He also won the “gold glove” five times.

I don’t think you can do the above without being a “great” pitcher.
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
The hips fire before the weight shifts in a high level swing.


I can somewhat fire my hips without any weight shift from the back leg, but not to the degree I need to achieve maximum force.

I am not an expert on hitting and you may very well be. But I believe that I have a fair "working knowledge" of what it takes to create power based on my experiences, what I see among hitters, and what I know of Physics. That being said, it doesn't mean I'm right, just that I'm comfortable in what I believe. If I stay on the backside, my rotational torque is limited. By shifting somewhat to the front side, however, I allow the hips to really fire. Some hitters shift weight on stride/foot placement, some stay back (I really think this action seperates a more linear style from a rotational one).

Martial artist practice this principle in every "breaking demonstration" ever performed. You shift weight off the back side to the forward placed foot and explosively fire your hips and hands (or foot) thru the target. Often the rear heel leaves the floor, much like the rear foot "toe touch" seen in many power hitters.
Attempting to break with the weight back, results in a broken hand, not broken boards or bricks.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
I understand where you’re coming from. But in this case I would have to say Phil Neikro was a “great” pitcher as well as a great competitor. Results rather than mechanics are what create “greatness”. Let’s at least agree that he was a “great” knuckleball pitcher.

Neikro is in the Hall of Fame and he won 318 games with a lifetime ERA of 3.35. He had over 3,000 strikeouts and gave up about 400 hits less than innings pitched in a 24 year MLB career. He led the league in strikeouts in 1977 and finished second in 1978. He led the league with a 1.87 ERA in 1967. He threw 45 shutouts. He also won the “gold glove” five times.

I don’t think you can do the above without being a “great” pitcher.

Totally agree!!

Gaylord Perry was another who had one great pitch Big Grin
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
I understand where you’re coming from. But in this case I would have to say Phil Neikro was a “great” pitcher as well as a great competitor. Results rather than mechanics are what create “greatness”. Let’s at least agree that he was a “great” knuckleball pitcher.

Neikro is in the Hall of Fame and he won 318 games with a lifetime ERA of 3.35. He had over 3,000 strikeouts and gave up about 400 hits less than innings pitched in a 24 year MLB career. He led the league in strikeouts in 1977 and finished second in 1978. He led the league with a 1.87 ERA in 1967. He threw 45 shutouts. He also won the “gold glove” five times.

I don’t think you can do the above without being a “great” pitcher.




I'll agree he was a GREAT knuckleball Pitcher and certainly had some years with GREAT numbers. How many knuckleball Pitchers get drafted a year though? Throwing a knuckleball is a last resort, IMO. If a High School Pitcher throws a knuckleball, they usually take it out of his pitch selection. It might be because no one can catch it, cut they still take it out.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
quote:
The hips fire before the weight shifts in a high level swing.


I can somewhat fire my hips without any weight shift from the back leg, but not to the degree I need to achieve maximum force.

I am not an expert on hitting and you may very well be. But I believe that I have a fair "working knowledge" of what it takes to create power based on my experiences, what I see among hitters, and what I know of Physics. That being said, it doesn't mean I'm right, just that I'm comfortable in what I believe. If I stay on the backside, my rotational torque is limited. By shifting somewhat to the front side, however, I allow the hips to really fire. Some hitters shift weight on stride/foot placement, some stay back (I really think this action seperates a more linear style from a rotational one).

Martial artist practice this principle in every "breaking demonstration" ever performed. You shift weight off the back side to the forward placed foot and explosively fire your hips and hands (or foot) thru the target. Often the rear heel leaves the floor, much like the rear foot "toe touch" seen in many power hitters.
Attempting to break with the weight back, results in a broken hand, not broken boards or bricks.




I never said the weight "stays on the backside", what I said was the "swing shifts the weight". The martial artist does the same thing, they shift and punch, not shift then punch. The great hitters shift and swing, not shift then swing.
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