Travel Ball - Good and Bad.......

quote:

Travel teams are better because they recruit from far and wide versus LL being restricted to small boundaries.

I don't have a ton of experience in the travel ball world, but the above statement confuses me a little. Every travel team in our area announces try outs in the papers and such. Yeah I guess some recruiting goes on, but you can only recruit kids if you have seen them play before. Where would those coaches see them play (LL other travel teams?) Is there a list of the best 12 yr olds around in a given area?
Also, I think part of the issue here is that there is a fundamental difference between individual talent and team play. You may have a great team, but the kids might be average players. And you also may have a load of talent but stink as a team.

Around here, most travel teams play in a pretty broad area. Even if you don't play in out of state tournaments, it is not uncommon to go to tournaments that are 1 - 1 1/2 hours away. Coaches get to see teams from all over. LL boundaries are something like in a 4-5 mile radius. Here in Metro Atlanta in Georgia, there are very few LL opportunities.

Our travel team (16 yr. old), has kids from three towns that are next to each other, but the distance can be as much as 20 miles between where the kids live. Even at 12, my son was on a team that had kids that were from two towns, but went to three different HS's with up to 10 or 12 miles separating them. They all played in the same town rec league when they were younger, but most never would have played together on a LL team due to the distances. Even at 12, or 8 for that matter, teams play in tournaments with kids from many areas. The local travel "league" includes teams from 3 counties, so they play teams from quite a wide geographic range.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat H:

quote:

Travel teams are better because they recruit from far and wide versus LL being restricted to small boundaries.

I don't have a ton of experience in the travel ball world, but the above statement confuses me a little. Every travel team in our area announces try outs in the papers and such. Yeah I guess some recruiting goes on, but you can only recruit kids if you have seen them play before. Where would those coaches see them play (LL other travel teams?) Is there a list of the best 12 yr olds around in a given area?
Also, I think part of the issue here is that there is a fundamental difference between individual talent and team play. You may have a great team, but the kids might be average players. And you also may have a load of talent but stink as a team.

From following the growth of travel ball New England is one of the last areas to get into it. Until 16U the teams tended to be town oriented. It's starting to change.

In our area, the better travel teams don't have open tryouts. They invite the players they want. A tryout would be an individual player coming to practice or playing in the pool game of a tournament.

At 11U and 12U another team's coach and I had a plan we would convert our ll all-star travel teams into legit travel teams. For two years in all-star tournaments and travel games we paid attention to who where the best players with potential upside on the 60/90 field. We made a list of twenty and got thirteen of them.

The team developed a reputation for quality instruction (four former college players/two played pro) and no favoritism/daddyball. Winning a lot didn't hurt either. At 14U the team was approached by quality players in daddyball situations. In addition we merged with another quality team. At that point we could beat anyone. At 15U an academy sponsored the team to take it in under it's umbrella and start an academy program the following year.

By 16U the best players get recruited by the 18U showcase programs for their 16U prep teams. My son's team had tryouts by invite only. There were about seventy five at tryouts. He was also asked to play for an 18U scout team. The eighteen players are from 10-12 different high schools.

The teams that hold open tryouts are usually looking for players. Those teams usually aren't the better teams. The exception would be some academy teams with strong college placement reputations. They suck the parents in a 3-5K a year starting at 10U. By 16U there are maybe two kids from the 10U team good enough to make the 16U team.

As a newbie to the forum, I felt compelled to chime in.
In our area, LL is some $180 for a typical spring season, and that cost for mediocrity alone actually lends itself to the travel ball alternative at the younger levels, for those who are ready for a more developmental and competitive experience.

The other variable is age - my son, who because of living in Florida, had played almost 4 seasons by the time we moved up to the Carolina's - but because of his birthday and "league age" he was resigned to 2 more years of 'coach pitch' - unless you play the political game, they hold players down regardless of ability.

Not saying he was a superstar, but he already was beyond a typical rec ball practice and easily the best player on his team, and in the end quite bored by it. We played that spring , and moved on to travel ball that summer (machine pitch), and ultimately 9u (modified steal) that fall just after he turned 8. Now, since he played up he suffered a little from the playing time side, but benefited tremendously because of the practices and playing experience.

Now, this fall I let him play rec ball along with our light travel ball schedule, and was shocked although I should not have been - he was light years ahead of most of the players in our league in terms of fundamental skills, baseball awareness and skill. The real good rec players (challenge or All- Star) I saw here would be mediocre travel players at this age level, and would very much be left behind by the time they are 11, and thats not some daddy speaking, because we've had them out to tryouts, and a lot of "studs" in rec ball struggle with simple drills we run in practices, can't execute simple skills like bunting, heads up running, properly fielding a fly ball.

Every year, one or two 'travel teams' would ask my son to try out (wink). He always declined. "No, thank you."

I would say 7 or 8 players on his HS team played in travel ball, along with LL and Jr Legion. Two or three still play on 'elite' teams.


Last year, of the four players on this HS team who received post-season recognition, none was a former 'travel team-er' or 'elite' player.

quote:

Originally posted by Vicarious Dad:
Last year, of the four players on this HS team who received post-season recognition, none was a former 'travel team-er' or 'elite' player.

Hang around long enough and you'll learn just how little "post season recognition" really means @ the HS level. At least in our area, many other factors seem to dictate who the awardees end up being. For example a PG rated 10 with likely draft interest made 7th team All State while half a dozen other area players made higher lists. I've seen these kids play, anybody with half an eye for talent picks the 7th teamer waaaaay ahead of any of the higher picks. BTW, i don't have a dog in the race, my kids are younger.

All-whatever teams named by newspapers are usually selected by sportswritrers who have never seen many of the players on the field. Making some level of all-conference only takes playing well in half the conference games. The player can stink in the rest. Honorable mention requires one vote.

A high school kid can go 20-50, hit .400 and make all-conference with five bunt singles and beating out five dribblers along with ten decent hits. Stats in small numbers can be very skewed and misleading in regards to ability.

If a kid expects to play past high school in any decent college program he better be on an 18U travel team unless he's a can't overlook stud.

RJM agree with yiour last comment that in most cases it helps to have somethign beyond high school ball to get to a decent college program.

However, at least around here, the players that make the all confernce teams are the better players. The high school coaches vote on this and they usually get it right. There may always be a question or two but for the most part the all confernce teams are the better players.

All region teams here are also voted on by the coaches. Seems like most of those who made 1st and 2nd team around here deserved it.

My point was once past all-conference (where coaches vote), All-Teams named by newspapers are a bunch of BS. It's based on stats in small numbers and word of mouth. A kid hitting .350 in one conference can be a far superior player to a kid hitting .400 in another conference. There was a kid who made All-County in our area named by the newspaper. The article raved he has great hands and only made two errors. The reality is the kid couldn't kick what he couldn't reach. His range and arm is limited. I'll bet the sportswriters who named the team never saw him play.

You do make a good point of the differnece in conferences. In our area there are many teams in large classification but a vast difference in the level of play in the conferences comprising those teams.

In all honesty any travel vs local ball has to be tuned to the desire of the kid. My son loves to play and actually will be joining his first select/travel team at the age of 12. I purposely held him back until he was older simply because I wanted to make sure that he wanted to play at that level and not simply be some kid who plays just to make his dad happy.

I do agree that many of the travel teams have higher caliber coaching and in general better players but that isn't always the case. My son was lucky to have coaches at the 10U and 12U level that were very good at teaching basic fundamentals and sportsmanship. My son has played some travel teams in All Star play (he consistantly makes all star teams in his district) and many of these kids are very good but I have noticed that in some cases the coaching emphasized winning over good baseball and sportsmanship. That may be fine at the high school and collegiate level but I was not pleased to see that at the 11 year old level.

Travelball, club, whatever you call it is bad for sports and bad for kids... here's why.  Kids should be kids, let's not forget that most of the players we are talking about were sleeping with teddy bears five years ago. I can't get my daughter out of bed for school right now because we spent a total of 24 hours traveling to, and playing in a soccer tournament this weekend. My boy (who is a phenomenal pitcher) wants to quit because his last season was daddy ball at its best and he too is burned out having spent every weekend playing tournaments and not playing with friends. Most of these kids will NOT play college and will NOT get scholarships. Their memories of sports when they grow up will NOT be fond... exhaustion, sitting in cars for hours, overbearing daddys, ridiculously intense coaches who want to win at any cost so they can increase their roster (bottom line) next year. It's a puppy mill of players.  Not to mention repetitive motion and other injuries. Most will quit by age 15. And, you are robbing rec of all their good players, the result? Rec leagues are having trouble fielding teams and getting fields to play on. My local LL could only get together enough kids for 4 teams for fall ball this year (at all ages), so we are robbing the mediocre kids of their chance to play ball too. In the long run, big picture, it's bad for kids and bad for sports. You people need to keep parenting in perspective. 

Dang, way to respond to a thread from 5 years ago!

Obviously, people are still reading this. What an intelligent thing to say. What was the value in your comment?

I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there. 

Fewer than 11% of kids who play sports will play in college.  Fewer than 11% of senior NCAA baseball players will get paid to play. All I'm saying is (Dads)... keep it in perspective. 

Greg ... You need to keep this board in perspective. The posters on this board are mostly the parents of pro players, college players and all conference, if not all state high school players. It's the parents of kids who have been there and done it (got to college ball) and those who likely will get there. This isn't a board of delusional LL dads. 

You're funny, I wonder if you would say that to my face. 

Did I say something offensive? I gave you the facts about this board. Please explain why high school players who are college prospects shouldn't play travel ball. Then l'll have a better understanding of where you're coming from. 

Yes, I thought you were calling me delusional. Sorry if I took undue offense. All I was saying (after reading the majority of posts) is that parents should keep perspective. Statistics say that 90% of the people posting HERE will not see their kids get played to play. 

Going pro is a whole other story. I believe the posters on this site understand the numbers. There are enough stories of only going so far even when turning pro. Many posters here have either faced those odds, their kids have faced those odds or from their kids playing at a reasonably elite level know other players who went on to face those odds. 

 

In fact, there are two threads on this board about playing in the minors. One is current about minor league pay. Another is an ongoing thread on the trials and tribulations of being a minor league player. 

 

One active poster here is the president of Perfect Game. While he doesn't claim to have all the answers he sure has seen a lot from parents wasting money on Perfect Game showcases (which he doesn't like to see) to studs who are now MLB stars.

 

As for delusional LL dads, there are none. There are only over enthusiastic dads yet to be smacked in the face with reality (not that you're one). Welcome to the board. Have a good day.

 

Note: Sometimes it's interesting to see a newcomer bring an old thread forward. It shows how posters might have thought before x number of years more exposure and experience. It often shows the issues and debates don't change. It's just baseball going round and round.

I agree, RJM - this sight is geared towards the kid whose goal is to play college ball (or beyond). I get annoyed every time I see people posting tryouts for non-HS age teams.

 

To Greg65: Travel ball is a tool - it is neither good or bad. It just is. It's parents (and especially unrealistic parents) who steal the joy out of baseball. Parents pick the teams (and therefore the ridiculously intense coaches) so we would be well advised to keep that in perspective, I did. My son's summer team this year was only .500 even though we had the talent to win more games. But we went with an organization that believes in developing players and they would leave pitchers in too long to give them a chance to work out of jams or put a kid in an unfamiliar position so he could learn (often by making mistakes).

 

As long as my kid WANTS to play (e.g. he's asking me to take him to the cages) and his goal is to play in college or the pros, I will continue to pay for travel ball because it gives him the best opportunity to reach his goals. We played LL until he was 13 but he outgrew it. It does a kid no good to be the best player on a marginal team - he won't get better that way. The talent level of the players aside, the problem with rec ball is that they don't play enough games. In LL we played less than 20 games in a season - in travel ball we played nearly 70. That's a lot more reps and a lot more game situations to be exposed to - reps that my son's competition for a HS/College/Pro roster spot are getting while the rec player is hanging out at Chuckee Cheese with his LL buddies.

BTW - there is a no problem with the Rec League baseball in our town - we have one of the 10 largest LL's in the world here and it keeps growing. There is a place for the kid that loves baseball and just wants to play and it's a great place to be.

Some true.  A lot BS. 

 

Rec ball and LL has created its own demise.  Too many nonsense rules and too political.  Rec ball is daddy ball on steroids.  They have driven many people away. 

 

Here's the thing.  The first order of business is to get your kid to high school with the skills to make the team (and hopefully contribute).  As parents we provide that guidance.  In many cases, definitely not all, "travel" ball helps with that.   After that, it is up to them -- and many will not play beyond HS.  So what.   

 

Most join "travel" for advancement.  It starts with better coaching and ends with more consistent competition.  That is not to say every "travel" team has either.  There are way too many PO dad teams, which are nothing more than glorified rec teams.  So you need to do your homework. 

 

As for the time commitment, it certainly is a concern.  But it is a great life lesson about "sacrifice" and commitment.  He'll get upset when he has to miss the "big party" but he gets over it after he finds out it wasn't that good.  We make sure he has enough hanging around with friends time. 

 

I am glad we have done it.  Did we miss some things?  Yes.  But we gained many more. 

 

To SPYvSPY: I agree with all your statements, sounds like you are a good Dad. Unfortunately, the majority of people in travelball, IMHO, are the "win at any cost" types who are either in it for the money, or living vicariously through their kids. People forget that it's a "game" and you "play" it. At the end, we are all going to be buried in a hole, if you didn't have fun, and didn't teach your kids to have fun, that's your fault. You should always be asking, "is this fun?" and, "is it worth it?"

I'll make  a couple of comments here.  

 

1st is that technically, I think this board is for high school baseball.  Hence, highschool baseball web.  Back when I first joined the site it seemed like the site really was mostly about high school situations and there were a good number of kids/parents of kids getting ready to move to the HS level.  I will agree that the tone and focus of the board has changed to kids with the desire to play at the next level beyond HS.  Or maybe it's just my perspective since my son is beyond the HS age.  So to bring up situations involving kids pre-hs isn't that far out of the realm of reasonable on this site.

 

My second point is in regard to Greg65's post.  Depending on the age we are talking about, travel can be good or bad depending on your viewpoint.  For the HS aged player who wants to play at the next level, it is, without doubt, a good and really a necessary thing.  For players age say 12 - 14 or so who want to play for their HS team, I would say it is a beneficial, but not necessary thing.  And for players below 12, I think it can be a bad thing.  Especially when we're talking about kids starting at age 6 or 7 starting to play travel ball.

 

When kids are starting to play travel ball at those young ages, there are a lot of things that can be considered negative.  My biggest concern for these young kids is the potential overuse of pitching.  If you are playing rec ball and only play 20-25 games in the spring and 10-15 games in the fall, you will not pitch nearly as much as when you are playing 60-70 games in the spring and another 25-30 in the fall.  If a kid starts pitching at 8 years old and is a pitcher right up to HS, that kid will have a ton of use on his young arm.  I think too much.  

 

Everyone playing travel ball at these young ages talks about the lack of competition in rec ball.  A big part of that is because there are so many people playing travel.  And not only the best of the best.  There are major teams, AAA teams, AA teams and A teams.  Why in the world would there be teams playing AA and A travel, when if all those players played rec, it would be fairly competitive?  Because they want to say they play travel.  And that is asking for trouble IMO.

 

So, yes, travel can be bad.  But as the kids get older, and depending on their goals, it can become beneficial and eventually necessary.  As far as the odds of playing at the next level, I am not one to squash anyone's dreams.  Are some kids/parents delusional?  Probably, but who knows what may happen in the future with maturity and growth.  As long as a kid has the dream, let him pursue it.  But travel ball below a certain age is certainly not necessary to do that and could be harmful.

 

JMHO.

I don't believe that statistics say that.

The stats "may" say that only 10-11% of those who play sports will play college sports but it doesn't say that 10-11% of the posters' children on this site will be the % that plays college sports. I have no idea of what that percentage would be but I wouldn't be surprised if it is 50% or greater.

Ok, this statement is for everybody... Ask your kids in 15 years if it was worth it, then ask them if they will steer their kid, if talented enough, toward a club team. When you're at your next tournament, look around, see if everybody is really having fun. When was the last time you took your son camping, fishing, biking, or something else he likes to do? Or does he do anything else? Commitment is a valuable lesson, but so is being well-rounded.In America we put everything on steroids. Literally, look at steroids in HS sports. If I build a 500hp hot rod, you build one with 800hp... We're obsessed with how many gold medals we win at the Olympics. It's not healthy. But that's just my opinion, and you now what they say about those... 

Wow, Greg! get enough fiber in your diet? RJM was only pointing out that you seem to have posted without considering your audience. Your post seemed to be aimed at dillusional LL parents, of which few can be found here. That's all. Now, if you want RJM to be offensive, hang around. He's perfectly capable of doing so.

Haha, we already made amends, I think.  Please note the first post here is about 12-year olds. I'll shut up now... Have a great day. 

Actually took him fishing last Saturday.  He didn't catch anything. 

 

I think most people are having fun at the tournaments.  And a lot of the fun is after the games.  He'll think it is worth it.  At his young age, he has accomplished more than a lot of his friends. 

 

I think many of the players in rec ball aren't having fun.  Many are there because mom/dad force them to be there.  They drop them off and maybe they come back (been there waiting for dad to pick up little Johnny).  The players who are "serous" get upset because their first baseman can't catch (but has to play there) or the kid who never shows up for practice gets to play equal time.  The parents are upset because the dad "coach" knows nothing about baseball and the kid umpire can't get anything right.  And then there is the 25-20 game with only 1 hit that left the infield.  Most of the runs are scored on walks and "steals" of home.  Where do I sign up! 

 

 

This is my impression, as well. After moving to a small, isolated community, this year was the first that my son and I have been associated with league ball since he was seven (he's 14 now). I coached a Bbe Ruth team (13-15yo's) and there were more than one kid in that age group still playing becaus the parents insisted they had to have something to do during the summer. i assume, at the lower ages, that feeling is even more prevelant.

Why can't a kid play competitive travel ball and still be well rounded? My son started playing travel ball over rec ball because it was more fun.  He enjoyed (and still enjoys) playing with kids that were at his skill level.  People tell me my son is very talented.  He is a high school sophomore who was the only freshman to make his varsity team last year.  Yes, that took a lot of work. And I beleive he really enjoys putting in the effort.   But he still does things outside of baseball.  For example, we spent this weekend on the lake.  He was out on a jet ski all day.  On the drive home, we were talking about our plans for the school break at New Years.  We have a few choices:  Go visit family up north.  Stay around home and hang out with friends, or go to Florida for a PG showcase.  If it was up to him, I would be making reservations for Florida.  (And we still may.  Plenty of time to decide.)

 

My point is, it does not have to be baseball or everything else.  You can play competitive travel ball and still have other interests.  And if you think travel ball is time consuming, high school ball truly does take every free moment. So, should these boys not play high school ball?

Golfman, I'm truly sorry your kids had such poor rec experiences.  We were fortunate in that our kids really enjoyed playing rec soccer, CYO basketball, and Little League in our area.  Though each did go on to play at least one of those sports in a more competitive AAU or travel environment, their rec experiences were like nothing you describe.  Our local Little League, though it has its share of politics, like all baseball organizations at any level, is a vibrant and fun place, and all divisions of play Majors and below are at 100% capacity every year.  Most local kids who play travel keep playing there as well through 12U; they like playing with their friends.  The few who do not often show up to see their friends play.  And lots and lots of kids get their parents to drop them at the park after practice when they don't have a game so that they can  hang out with their pals.  It's truly a special place and I'm sure my kids will remember it fondly for the rest of their lives. I know that I will.

There are all kinds of travel ball before the level where kids are playing showcases. It's impossible to lump them into one category of travel ball and condemn it or praise it. 

 

At the preteen level there's academy based travel and dad coached travel. Sometimes parents find coaches without kids to coach their dad administrated travel team. There are community based teams. There are rec all star teams that proceed into travel. There are teams that are league only, tournament only and a cross breed of the two. There are programs with recruiting. There are programs with boundaries. 

 

I don't believe where a kid plays, rec, travel or any form of travel above as a preteen has a bearing on whether or not he will play high school or college ball. What matters in the preteen years is instruction on fundamentals that will carry over to the full size field, building a passion for the game and learning how to compete.

 

The delusion at the preteen level is believing because a kid is a preteen stud it will continue all the way through to high school and college. Although there are things to look for assuming the kid maintains the passion and work ethic. The other delusion is spending thousands on lesson and an academy team with the delusion talent can be purchased.

 

I felt fortunate LL and Ripken ball in our area remained strong and still is. My son's primary ball was Ripken, then LL when we moved and all stars. But he did play some travel as a secondary team. At nine and ten the Ripken all star team also played in Ripken and LL weekend invitationals from mid June to the end of July. At eleven and twelve his LL all star teammates plus a few more (as to not break the rules) played in a USSSA Sunday doubleheader league concurrently with the LL season. All stars played into August both years. We had all August for vacation. School didn't start until after Labor Day.

 

The middle school years present a new issue. The same kinds of travel teams exist as preteen ball. I found with the exception of one academy organization most weren't getting the kind of player where I felt they were doing anything more than taking parent's money on a dream. The kids weren't making the showcase teams when they got older.  Even on that one a poster here told me only four kids from the 13u team made the 16u team.

 

If you see your kid as a potential high school player you have to look at the instruction and coaching players get from the local Jr Legion, Babe Ruth, Connie Mack, etc. programs. I didn't have a comfort level with any of these programs in our area. I formed a travel team that was not costly with three other coaches who also played college ball and had youth baseball coaching experience. Our objective was to select LL and Ripken all stars from the area we felt had potential to play high school ball and provide instruction, polish and a competitive environment. Once again we finished by the end of July and had August free for vacation. 

 

For the most part the better 13u and 14u travel teams were those coached by dads with baseball experience. These teams were not expensive. From 13u to 16u ours was $500 to 600 for ten summer tournaments. When we did fall ball in 16u that was $300 for five tournaments. 

 

Situations differ in various areas of the country. As we get to showcasing the world all comes together with the same objective so I'm not going to get into that.

 

Does a kid have to play showcase tournament ball? No. But at the least he should do some individual showcases. Waiting at the home field to be discovered isn't the best idea except for can't miss studs who will get asked to play for a travel team anyway. 

 

Are there delusional parents? Sure they exist at all ages. There seem to be a lot less as the players age through the journey. 

 

Are there academies and instructors you could say are stealing money? Well, maybe they aren't earning it and selling a false set of goods and services. But it's on the players and parents to do the research. 

 

As a kid I came through LL, Babe Ruth and Legion ball. They were all great experiences. But after LL the road I took was not the right road for my son. Times change. Circumstances vary from region to region. 

 

This post is certainly long winded. But I couldn't do it any other way without leaving a lot of holes. Even so, there will be others with different circumstances who will have a different experience and disagree.

LOL!

You are not typical. I was at a (soccer) tournament yesterday and saw a Dad chewing out his kid and said kid crying, a kid telling his coach that the ref said they weren't getting calls because of said coach's conduct - to which the coach replied "question is, why are you talking to the ref," and two separate coaches yelling at kids and jumping around like monkeys on the sidelines during the game... Sheesh... Really? Including  drive time we spent 18 hours consumed by this tournament. And I've spent around $1300 dollars this season... My son just finished travel baseball, same stories, more money. For what? All because of the greed for money and glory.  I stand by my statement, it's a puppy mill for sports. 

Agreed dadofa 17.

We, they have tons of time to do other things. The weekends are generally baseball, but not the weekdays.

Depending on the tournament location, if its somewhat local, it's only a few hours on that weekend day.

Everyday 2016 was serious about baseball and didn't enjoy playing with kids who weren't. Period!

Just came back from a college camp this weekend and still after years of playing, kid was pretty excited he did well and kept pulling off his earphones to tell me about how good the hit he had felt, telling about his play in the infield etc...

Sure there's times when he misses a 4th of July party, it's simply called sacrifice and it's a good builder of character.

And my guess is most of the people, dads on this board have kids who are very good.

No site has educated me more than this one. 

In fact when the recruiter at the camp talked to the kids and their parents for 30 minutes, I already knew everything he had to say.

btw - I'll ask my kid tonight if he will steer his kids to play.

Bet he will!

 

I'm sensing something didn't go well this weekend. 

 

My kids had great travel ball experiences in multiple sports. None of them were excessively expensive. None involved long trips until showcases. The key is doing the research before jumping in. I had my kids pass on what I felt were the wrong situations. 

 

Re: July 4th - Travel ball didn't exist when I played. I had a game every July 4th from LL through college summer ball. In Legion and college summer ball it was usually a doubleheader.

Can't speak for others, but my son hunts, fishes, camps, picks morel mushrooms, plays basketball, hangs with his buddies, and plays +/- 70 baseball games a year. The only time I hear him complain is after 2-3 weeks of downtime (summer/winter break).