Travel Ball - Good and Bad.......

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RJM how do you judge the contribution of travel when your son played both ?

The travel ball my son played at 9U and 10U was community based. It was the same as rec all-stars. At 11U and 12U we put together a fifteen man roster of prospective LL all-stars to get them accustomed to all-star level competition on a weekly basis. It paid off. The all-star team played into August twice.

So, it certainly wasn't about the competition over rec all-stars. That leaves 46/60 closed bases versus 50/70 open bases. Personally I believe open bases is a distraction for a lot of preteens. Pitchers have to concern themselves with baserunners rather than focus on pitching fundamentals. The only thing preventing a constant track meet was pitchers getting hitters out.

I'm not buying the value of a preteen pitcher learning a move to first. When I got to college my move sucked. Why? I didn't deal with many base runners in high school and Legion ball. That's the way it is with a lot of quality high school pitchers. I still see the same thing today with travel ball.

Travel is travel. It doesn't matter why you do it. Going across the street or across the country is the same thing. You are playing more ball to improve your kids skills.

It doesn't matter if you are doing it to get a better LL AS team, get ready for HS, or if you think your kid will be in MLB some day. Playing outside of rec is for improving your child to the best of his abilities. How far he will go is determined by a couple of hundred different factors.
I personally think that learning skills early and correctly is a great advantage, others think it doesn't matter. My son will be competing against other players who have had this advantage. The best thing is that it is fun and we both love it. I wouldn't trade the memories and experiences for anything.

Another aspect of travel is the fact that kids can't just go to the park or school or street and play if they want to do it. Try finding 8 other families of 10 year olds that will let their kids disappear for a day of ball. It isn't going to happen anymore. If your kid wants to play, travel is the only way it is going to happen.

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Playing outside of rec is for improving your child to the best of his abilities.

At 9U and 10U travel was nothing more than playing more than eighteen rec games. It allowed my son to play six more weeks after mid June. The kids were all from the same town. We never played more than two games in a day. It never involved a full day commitment. Tournaments were all within ten miles. At 11U and 12U it was to make the kids sharper for all-stars. It worked. It was only a Sunday doubleheader league. It took up a Sunday afternoon.

From the 9U/10U program there's one high school varsity player even though this team won most of it's games. From the 11U/12U program there are three additional high school varsity players from similar results.

There's absolutely nothing anyone can say to convince me preteen travel matters. I can't find a high school or college coach who says it matters. The best I've heard is some kids are learning better fundamentals earlier. But that's a function of the coaching, not the level of preteen ball.

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The best I've heard is some kids are learning better fundamentals earlier.

The key word is earlier. An earlier start does not equate to advanced skills beyond a late starter down the line assuming equal innate abilities.

In baseball and softball I've seen kids purchase skills at a training facility. The reason I say "purchased" is learning earlier placed them temporarily ahead of other players. But many of these kids hit the wall when they got older. As kids physically matured these kids just didn't have the talent to compete.

Why do most of the best hockey players come from Canada and places like Russia Sweden etc? It is because they have organized hockey from a very young age.
RJM why did you put your son in what you call allstar ? The best players of the local rec kids ? Well what we call allstar is the best kids and it is separate from rec.
You are obviously in an area that doesn't have the population to play on travel teams.
Someone can tell Daque our elite teams play by American League rules starting at 15.

Lets quit comparing kids who don't have the talent to play with kids who do have the talent to play.

Two kids with talent, one has better skills, who is going to play?

And I have seen plenty of average talent kids in HS outplay kids who have better potential,talent. Their skill level and work ethic put them way past the talented kids. Who doesn't love the s c r a p p e r who has the dirtiest uniform? Now put that same type of kid, the dirty one, into a talented kids body. That is what you get with travel at a high level. Even the most talented kids have had to bust their hineys. They have the skills, motivation, talent from succeeding at a high level and they know how to play the game.

That is why you start early and get the best of travel. I just don't see any kids like that in Rec. I see them every tournament in travel.

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You are obviously in an area that doesn't have the population to play on travel teams.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. I live one of the larger major metropolitan areas. There are several major showcase teams within an hour that if I mentioned their names, any knowledgeable person (PG, TR, etc) would know who they are. There's a ridiculous number of 13U to 15U teams. There's just a sanity in the area regarding preteen ball. There are travel teams. But LL and Ripken take priority.

You guys are just arguiing for the sake of arguing. As I stated I'm not moving on my stance. I have NEVER heard a high school or college coach give any creedence to preteen travel ball. A few have laughed when I asked.

There was a pro scout at my son's practice last night. He's a former D1 coach. When I asked him he advised I not ask the question if I want to be considered a knowledgeable parent.

Answer this question. Why is every kid at my sons HS a travel kid? Fresh, JV and V. Why when we play the scout teams or go see them play, all of the kids we know are travel kids? I would be willing to bet that the kids we don't know are from other parts of the state. But are probably still travel kids.

RJM I agree with you.....but I also think you would agree that playing travel before age 13 certainly can't hurt.

Playing with biger fields/base paths, open bases and learning how to take a lead and keep runners from leading, playing stonger comepetion ( the number 8 hole hitter on many travel teams are the #4 hitter on the local rec team) and hiting against better competetion certainly can hurt one's development.

It looks like my son followed a very simliar path to your son...played both Little league and "township" travel ball before age 13...then once he got to the bigger field he played for a regional tavel team.

His freshman year he was a JV starter for his High school team and in his sophmore year was a picher/1b starter for his varsity team. He plays for a 4A high school.

I would not try to tell anyone that the time he had playing travel before age 13 had anything to do with his success so far in high school.

So would I agree that the pre teen ages should be about developing the love for the game and the basic's...they can get this in many different ways.....

I do think playing some level of travel before age 13 does help keep the interest level higher due to the above mentioned factors ( taking leadings etc)


Which might help us from losing kids to the L-Word?

dad43: Let's agree that better kids are attracted to travel. I agree that it can't hurt to play travel assuming overuse is not an issue. And playing against better competition can give an aspiring player an edge for a while. I also believe that a travel player and a rec player with equal innate abilities will be pretty much on a par after one year on the full sized diamond.

One value of travel is that it should, in theory, force a better work ethic and technique refinement from kids who have had it too easy with success in rec.

Another value, rarely seen in either rec or travel is development of the mental side of the game and a passion for the game.

The differnce maker going into HS will end up being innate ability which, after the first year, will trump acquired skills. Moving up the ladder from there will be the mental side of the game since everyone will have sufficient innate ability and skills to go on.

As I said ad nauseum, players with better innate abilities will be attracted to travel but it is not travel that gives them the better innate abilities.

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As I said ad nauseum, players with better innate abilities will be attracted to travel but it is not travel that gives them the better innate abilities.

You have changed your stance which is encouraging.

Daque you can only go where your talent takes you. A great travel team with great coaching will give you your best shot at getting there.
As Doug pointed out some guys with innate talent may never get down the road to develop his skills. Here it is almost impossible to break into a travel team unless they are desperate for players. Also the longer you Waite ,the tougher it is.
I think Dougs position pretty much echos mine. I have watched this play out many times where kids try to break into a travel team and can't do it.
Daque when my son's HS BKTB coach left and went to Arizona, the HS team went to pot within 2 years. My son even stayed back 1 year and delayed his college BB because he wanted 1 more year with that coach.
Coaching does make a huge difference. They teach talented kids skills and how to use their abilities.

i've asked this question quite a bit. never really got an answer. i'll try again.

are kids good because they play travel? or because they are good they play travel?

new question.
does anyone know if there a bunch of travel teams out there with just average kids? if so have those kids really become good players?

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You have changed your stance which is encouraging.

I think not. But perhaps I did not expand enough.

There are some things to be gained through small diamond travel ball at any age but they are not deal breakers in making the HS team. However, they are attributes with value, especially pushing the kid who hasn't had to work to succeed in rec ball. Travel ball for gifted players is essential once they are playing on the full sized diamond.

The mental side and passion comes from a good coach which can be found, or not, in any venue. I have interpreted your position to be that small diamond travel is essential for future success which I do not believe. We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

If I knew that a given munchkin (age 12 or less) was the next coming I would encourage his parents to get him with the best coaching they could, regardless of team orientation. But I cannot tell how good a player is going to be until about age 16 so I prefer to wait until getting a peek at his performance on the full sized diamond before recommending travel ball. Save the money until then.

I cannot answer issues that you raised about Canadian baseball or hockey since I have no knowledge on which to base an informed decision. I could guess that in Russia etc. that hockey is the sport of preference in the cold months whereas in warmner climes it is basketball. More numbers playing equates to higher numbers of players with the necessary innate ability. Or perhaps it is the genes thing. All guessing on my part.

Perhaps it you who is changing his stance on the roles of innate ability and learned skills. Then again....

All of the above are true.

Good kids travel as Daque now points out gravitate to travel teams. Not all travel teams are equal and that is why you do your due diligence when picking one.
There are teams with average players who play on travel teams but the travel team may be average as well. Again not all are equal.
Our elite teams were created to fill the demand for high level coaching and competition. If there was no demand they wouldn't exist and if they weren't successful in fulfilling that need, they wouldn't survive.

Daque the reason is not genes. Genes play a role in the innate ability but it is coaching and playing competitively at an Early age. Places like Canada , Russia etc have highly developed systems for developing players. It is true in all sports. BB is probably the poorest developing sport here and it is light years ahead of most areas.
The countries that have great developing programs are the ones that usually do well at the Olympics and other venues.
The secret to success in any endeavor is early development and offering the venues to develop.

Kids develop at different rates. I have seen BB players not reach their potential until they are in their late 20s.
I have always looked at sports as a gleaning process where only the best survive.

what did you guy's do with the horse?

BHD: The natives are getting restless with our ongoing commentary. As to the location of the horse we have disposed of all parts but his a** and there is no way to get rid of those parts other than on a baseball board.

BHD, you note that, "The secret to success in any endeavor is ealy development and offering the venues to develop." I am in qualified agreement.

The definition of early development varies with the sport. Women's world class gymnastics is very early, like maybe 5 years of age. In this sport the word, "elite" has a specific defined meaaning. It has no meaning in a team sport but is used to hype in the US and in Canada it appears to mean above travel in level of play.

On the other end of the spectrum, cross country skiing has champions often in their 30's.

The question becomes what is early as it relates to baseball. You and I differ here and perhaps our experiences differ because of how the game is played in our own back yard. The better players must take advantage of their opportunities as they present themselves and at the correct time. Overkill as well as missing the boat are risks to be taken into account.

Once again, it appears that you place skill development ahead of innate ability in the order of importance. As you would expect, I reverse their respective roles. It is an opinion based upon experience and our experiences also differ. What else could we expect as a result of that?

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Are kids good because they play travel? or because they are good they play travel?

In the purest form they play travel because they are good. What has happened recently is everyone who thinks they're good (or their parents think so) are now playing travel.

Also There are parents who believe if they get their kids on a 9U travel team of a program that sends kids to college ball, their kid will play college ball. A parent of a 9U player (from a known program) once told me his son will play college ball because he's in the program. I know the roster has turned over dramatically just from 13U to 16U.

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Originally posted by 20dad:
what did you guy's do with the horse?

LOL!

Daque, I have read all of your comments on this subject. If what you say is true it seems as if we would have more african-americans playing baseball. Some will say that they lose interst, cost of playing, coaching etc.. I live in Atlanta where baseball is very popular in the african-american community. The younger teams (12 and under) are very good they compete with the best teams in the country because they are better athletes in my opinion and have more innate ability ,but after this age they fall off the map. I will admit that alot of the kids end up focusing on football and basketball but the ones that stay with baseball have a difficult time competeing for the most part with their white counterparts. If what you say is true it would be just the opposite. What are your thoughts on this? I hope no one is offended by this post I am just curious about this.

No matter athletic you are catching , hitting and throwing a baseball are not skills that just being athletic will allow you to master at a high level. You can take a kid that has never played football in his life and if he is athletic , strong and has the desire , you can put him on the D line and tell him to go get the football adn he can have success. Take that same kid and if he has never played baseball before he is toast.

Bison:

I think you ought to think about self-editing your post. It is so wrong in so, so many ways.

jemaz, with all due respect explain how it is wrong

Bison: I witness the same thing here in Mexico. Blacks, Hawaiians, Orientals, and Hispanics have their genetics rooted in the warmer climes. As a generalization, kids from warmer climes tend to mature earlier than kids from Northern European stock which come from colder climates. Germans, Danes, Sweeds, Russians, Irish, etc. tend to mature later than the first group.

While the maturity may not be visible externally until adolescence, they tend to have the edge in eye-hand coordination, quick reflexes, strength, and some of the other qualities generally listed as attributes associated with innate ability.

So as the Northern European kids mature they pass some of the earlier bloomers in other attributes such as height, etc. Now all of this has to do with generalities so dont get your shorts in a bunch citing particular players.

As a group, black kids are stronger as are Hisspanic kids but as a group white kids catch up. Some black kids are taller as are some white kids but black kids have a different anatomy to their fast twitch muscular fibers making them quicker and faster. So black kids tend to excell in track, especially sprints. But white kids have the edge in anerobic endeavors and do better overall in wrestling and long distance running.

Certainly one must consider preferences in sport selection where kids see success stories in endeavors that they are good in. Financial considerations also come into play with hockey and swimming.

Many factors go into the mix and one of them is anatomical differences. Another is heredity and age of maturation. Blue eyed guys seem to have an edge in pitching whereas brown eyed players do better in hitting.

I imagine that there will be some that take offense to the generalizations noted above. Oh well. I never was P.C.

Bison and Jemaz: No comments? Too politically hot? Am I a bigot saying these things?

All I did was attempt to answer the question. I would appreciate a critique because when the topic comes up nobody replies and when I post the content elsewhere dead silence prevails.

Daque do you have scientific proof of you're suppositions?
You seem to draw conclusions that are not based in fact.

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Daque do you have scientific proof of you're suppositions?
You seem to draw conclusions that are not based in fact.

BHD: Thanks for the response. The most obvious area of contention is the comment about different musculature. This information was obtained in a histology (microscopic organ study) back in the late '50's. It was a reputable course and the information was not inlamatory but rather merely informative. It was shown at the time that there were cross bands in the musculature of blacks and this was the reason proposed why they excelled at track. Newer material defined both fast twitch and slow twitch striated muscles in varying amounts. Sprinters had more fast twitch and cross country runners more slow twitch.

A very cursory search online failed to allow me to find the proof that you reasonably requested. However, I assure you that the information was there and your position about the conclusions were not mine but I did cite the conclusions without referencing them. Perhaps the information is no longer referenced due to fears of some sort or another.

But in general to deny that different races have different strengths and weaknesses as well as other variations is to deny scientific evidence. Certainly differences in blood make up has been scientifically established.

Since I am unable, and unwilling, to research further I am unable to defend against your accussations and will leave it at that.

Daque, I agree with much of what you have to say on this subject. I guess you can say I am playing devils advocate. I think with the innate athletic ability of african-americans we would see more playing at higher levels (college mlb etc.). I have seen entire african-american teams with better athletes get beat by their white counter parts who were not as athletically gifted. Why does this happen? This goes against your assertion that players with innate abilities will eventually rise to the top.

I believe Hitler was proven wrong with his assertions.

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This goes against your assertion that players with innate abilities will eventually rise to the top.

I surely did not mean to imply that. Having the necessary innate abilities gets you in the door to compete at a higher level. Without that you are doomed from the gitgo.

The next most critical factor is the mental side of the game such as dealing with defeat and pressure, mental toughness, and work ethic, for example.

Next comes a passion for the game. Finally, an ability to hit effectively with wood.

How many times have you seen a player with all sorts of physical ability just pi** it down the drain for lack of some of the above factors? By the time a player gets to the college ranks, all of the team has great innate ability and most have refined skills. What they lack at that level, if they fail, is the mental side of the game and the passion.

As a more direct answer to your question, their coaches along the way have failed them.

I think you guys are confusing innate ability or natural talent with athleticism.

Being athletic doesn't mean you can throw a ball 95 mph, or hit it 400'. These are specific natural talents.

Michael Jordan is an amazing athlete but didn't have the talent to hit a breaking ball. Having a vertical leap of 48" doesn't mean you can throw or hit a baseball well enough to play at a high level.

How many non athletic looking pitchers are in the major leagues, or power hitters for that matter.

Black, white or purple, if you don't have a natural baseball talent chances are you won't make to the top of the baseball world.

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Michael Jordan is an amazing athlete but didn't have the talent to hit a breaking ball. Having a vertical leap of 48" doesn't mean you can throw or hit a baseball well enough to play at a high level.

Jordan is a tough example to cite. He didn't play competitive baseball until be placed in the minors after many years of not playing ball. Had he been playing since high school. I'll bet there's a good chance he could have been a MLB baseball player.

Then, of course there's the curve. It's why Danny Ainge ended up playing basketball over baseball. He couldn't hit the MLB curve.

You guys are missing the most important thing about baseball. It does not take great athletic ability to dominate or be a great baseball player. How athletic do you have to be to drop bombs? How athletic do you have to be to throw mid 90's with nasty off speed stuff? How athletic to do you have to be to defend many of the posistions in the field? Just be fundementally sound , athletic enough to get to balls you should and make all the routine plays routinely.

We play many all black schools who have way more athletes than we do. We pound them on a routine basis. They are not as skilled in the fundementals of the game. Many simply can not throw , catch or hit well at all. Baseball is a game that takes reps. It takes time to acquire the skills needed to excell at the game no matter how athletic you are. It is not an instant gratification sport.

Very athletic kids who also put in the skill work basic to baseball development can become outstanding players. And some simply do not. Some unathletic kids who do are just way better players. For every Cameron Maybin there are thousands who are athletic who simply can not compete.

When a big fat kid throwing gas with great off speed command shoves it up your a** for 9 innings does it matter he is not athletic? Or a big fat kid drops a couple of bombs on you does it matter how unathletic he is? Baseball is a unique game.

None of this **** makes much sense to me that is being posted. We all know that a great athlete who also has great baseball skills is a great athletic baseball player. But we also know that you dont have to be a great athlete to be a great baseball player. Or do we?

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Or do we?

Yes we do.
I can think of many examples of guys who succeed in BB that are not great athletes.

BHD: You are just a nasty unhappy person who just cannot help himself. The Hitler comment shows your ignorance. You are once again on ignore para siempre. Being the wimp you are you should be glad you can hide behind a discussion board's annonymity.

Wow Daque you are a little off the wall.
Trust me you are lucky I am hiding behind a screen name.
There was a time Hitler believed the Germans were the superior race. They dominated the Olympics. Quoting a little Latin ? One can only hope !

I don't think that the discussion is out of line at all.
Living in an area that has become predominetly hispanic, you will find those players mature and excel at an earlier age until others (non hispanic) mature physically.
Interesting, my perception is that hispanic and black bb players are usually faster, whether this is an inborn trait, I am not sure, but you won't find most of them as good pitchers, as this is more of an excercise in what Daque speaks of (anerobics). Here, football reigns supreme over any other sport, and most of those that participate in football excel in track and field as well. Same with basketball, just take a look at who dominates and participates in this sport. The faster atheletes, which IMO are usually black, not sure where one needs proof of this, just take a look at any NFL or NBA team. How many black quarterbacks are there? A handful. Why?

Overall, when a college coach or pro scout is interested, they will take into consideration as to the athleticism of a player in regards to his position. As far as pitching, not only do you have to be able to sustain hours on the mound, but play your position well. Who wants a guy who can't field his position? Manny is very lucky he is an awesome hitter, not sure he would be playing if he wasn't, what makes up for one skill certainly can outway another.

FWIW, ever wonder if the above is not true, why so many hispanic players lie about their birthdates? An example would be a player in the Cardinals system, he lied about his birthdate, no wonder he was so dominate above all the others who were 2-3 years younger than he was.

JMO.