Travel Ball - Good and Bad.......

Paying 300-400 a year at 9-15 yo to play travel ball is worth every penny regardless if your son grows to play at a higher level. My son's early allstar team had 2 go on to play college. The others benefited by learning to play a team sport and what it takes to compete. Those who have the desire to play allstar BB should be given the opportunity and in fact it is better they got the chance even if they got over taken by late bloomers. Hanging out with rec players is a recipe for failure in regards to BB or any sport.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:


Personally, I don't believe where a kid plays prior to playing on the 60/90 field has any bearing at all on his future (high school or beyond). What matters is learning the basics of the game properly. But until the kid can walk on the 60/90 field and prove he belongs, anything he did previous to 13U (smaller fields) and where he did it (rec or travel) is meaningless.

I agree.

This topic contains different opinions and should be respected, regardless of whether we agree with them or not. Very hard sometimes to use our players as examples, because every player and every situation (including where you reside) is different.

FWIW, I am not a proponant of endless season travel ball for young players. Especially young pitchers, my son began kid pitch at 8 in rec ball, we thought moving him to a league that let him pitch would be beneficial. As I look back, not so sure if this was a right decision. At 10 we moved to a travel team within the league, and yes he enjoyed facing better competition at that age. Our travel ball at that age, was not like the travel ball of today, a few games a week, some tournies thoughout the tri county area. We kept it simple, there was no need to travel across country to face better 10,11,12,13 year olds. I don't think that it made much difference in where he is today, other than more work on his arm and kept him out of trouble and we enjoyed the experiences as a family. We met many crazy parents along the way. One I remember in particular, one of those who strutted about because their player was THE player everyone wanted, multiple teams, pitched and hit every game. Mom would go ballistic when the coach began, in HS using those that were moving ahead of him. I don't know where that player is today.

Travel ball for young players is booming, travel teams in general are booming for almost every sport, not so much because they need to play better competition, but because parents want their kids to have the edge over others, and we all know that doesn't always work to their advantage. They are reminded that if they want their son to make the HS team this is a neccesity. I don't agree, I have seen many kids with that innate ability Daque speaks of never play baseball before HS, yet obtain full scholarships and drafted out of HS and playing MLB today. IMO, nothing matters until one reaches HS.

As a good example, one player on a team I watched last year never played bb until he reached HS, played QB and caught the coaches eye and became a pitcher, not bad either for someone just learning the game and how it really works. This player was an athlete, which is what coaches and scouts look for more than anything else, athletic abilties, IMO.

One more thing, we moved early to the 60/90 field, I am not so sure that was a good decision either, but interestingly enough, for many of the really good players on the team, they began to fade away quickly.

I don't think that hanging out with rec ball players is a recipe for disaster, if a young player is having fun, that is all that matters in youth sports. What many tend to do, is push players beyond what they might be ready for, physically and mentally and that can be a recipe for disaster as well.

So TPM did your son want to play travel or did you push him ?

We never pushed anything on him, he was always asked what he wanted to do by the coaches, they didn't ask us, it was his call. The only concern was that he not be abused as a hard throwing pitcher, and if we felt that was an issue, he wouldn't play for anyone. But I don't think it mattered at 10-14, he just wanted to play and be a part of the team and have fun. We knew at a young age he would most likely go a bit farther than most (those innate abilities Daque speaks of) so playing lots of travel ball at that age seemed not necessary for development.
And as you know from pervious posts (many) in the scheme of things son played very little baseball during the middle school years. Spring ball and some fall travel ball (mostly tournies), with lots of rest and doing other things in between.

BTW, I am not too sure about the revelancy what our kids (yours and mine or anyone elses)are doing at 22-23 when this discussion is about middle school travel ball.

We have 3 SR leagues here full of former college and high level pro players who never made it to the MLB level a few did) Did they fail ?

Here is a link to some profiles of one team called the Brantford Red Sox of the Intercounty League. To a man they started young and many of them give back by coaching travel teams. The success of BB organizations is giving opportunity to young players starting at as early as 5 years old. Most will fall by the wayside but our local organization tries to ignite a passion for the game whether the player never advances at all. They hold opening day fun games with MLB players there to teach and encourage. I watch these all the time. The lady who runs the rec level is a good friend and her goal is to provide fun and non competitive BB. The organization strives to develop players that will advance to allstar teams and beyond. They provided inexpensive tournaments and free high level instruction. The rec players were also allowed to attend but very few did. Early on the rec players who showed promise gravitated away from rec ball.
The rec ball actually improved at the 17-18 level and even SR because players who were not going to play at a higher level played rec ball. The SR level rec ball has a good league full of college guys who didn't want a real competitive venue anymore after college. We have 3 very good and growing SR leagues offering some great BB.
Rec ball between the ages of 5-8 might be acceptable to some but here the good players have migrated to allstar BB. Nothing to do with insane parents. They are everywhere so why waste mental energy on that.

If you care to scroll down to view other players like Hung Cho.
http://www.brantfordredsox.ca/...=details&rosterId=24

I am not sure I understand what the above is about or the point you are trying to make with it. This discussion is about pre HS travel ball,not senior leagues, or failing?

The relevance is that they got to where they did by working hard and did it from the beginning. Your son has great mechanics and at some point he had great coaching. If he was a hard thrower at 9-10 and had poor mechanics he may have injured himself like so many I have seen.
If you said no to travel ball would yours on be where he is today ? Would he become unhappy and quit ? I know my son would have quit.
My guy was a great BKTB player who played 1 year rec and 1 season of travel . He was spotted by the travel coach because of his body type and because he crushed the rec teams which were CYO teams. They were actually better than true rec. The next year he tried out for the freshman HS team but was moved up to JV for 2 years and then to Varsity. He was so far behind and if it wasn't for the travel team polishing him up , he probably would have never played at HS. Several of the HS players here went on to play college ball and some pro. Daques comment about a kid making moves having nothing to do with coaching shows how dumb his view is. It is 10 times harder to get a scholarship to D1 college in BKTB than BB. Coaching is everything in developing the innate talent you are born with. Hockey is another sport that is huge here. They start at 5yo and you have to perform inorder to move on.

TPM these players all started young . You must have missed that.

My son pitched 2 innings against that team striking out 5. He was still 16 turning 17. How do you think he would do without the years of honing his skills ?

My view is that around 9-10 yo you should look for a good instructional allstar team whether they travel or not. TRYING TO BREAK INTO A GOOD ALLSTAR TEAM GETS HARDER EACH YEAR YOU WAIT. Breaking bad habits gets harder as well.. This is a no brainer. If you play rec and at 18 you find you have a 90+ FB the MLB teams will sign you or you could enter the contest in India and get 1 million for the best arm.

Actually, my son had good (not stupendous) coaching, and FWIW most just left him alone, the good coaching was just about playing the game more than anything, then he had great coaching in college. He had some sloppy mechanics in HS, fixed up later on. Most players, even the best come out of HS not with the best mechanics.
BHD, you make good points, but as far as becoming good players from the beginning, there is a beginning for everyone, different players, different ages, there is no set of rules, IMO. Better athletes make better players, so we let son do what he wanted, play tennis, play hockey (yes we have this here too). gymnastics, golf, surfing, basketball (lousy rec league but lots of fun we won), etc. I do beleive that most likely contributed more to his success as an athlete, not where he started or how much he play or didn't play.
Daque brings up some good points, I don't see too many disagreeing with some of which he says, only perhpap in pm's, which seem strange as most here are pretty out spoken and not afraid to state their strong opinions or argue a point. I understand what he speaks of, as an example, son didn't pick up a bat for over 3 years, batted .333 his short stint in AA. No lessons, no nothing, just that natural ability. You can't teach that, I think that is what he is saying.
My opinion is also that nothing much counts until one reaches the bigger diamond, then serious stuff begins to happen, for most players, you can't judge a player on the smaller diamond as to what he will or will not be in teh future.
Actually, I don't think much counts until one reaches HS.

I see some position players who are now milb pitchers who never pitched a game in their life, where did they acquire those skills? Not in youth ball, travel or rec, that is for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:

.... If you said no to travel ball would yours on be where he is today ? Would he become unhappy and quit ? I know my son would have quit.

My son learned a very valuable lesson playing rec ball. He learned to shake off his fielders not making plays behind him and umpires making horrible calls in front of him. He'll be a high school junior next year. He's as composed as any pitcher I've ever seen on the mound. Nothing shakes him. You can't tell if he's winning or losing. The only thing visible is he's focused.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I see some position players who are now milb pitchers who never pitched a game in their life, where did they acquire those skills? Not in youth ball, travel or rec, that is for sure.

I know kids who played college and pro ball who became pitchers senior year after graduation depleted the high school pitching staff and these kids had arms.

A friend was a catcher until senior year. He pitched in the SEC and MLB for six years. He never made LL all-stars. He was a big klutz until his teens. Another didn't pitch until a couple of weeks before the high school playoffs. He outpitched the local stud pitcher in front of a bunch of scouts, was drafted and signed. He made it to AAA. Neither were D1 prospects as catchers.

quote:

My view is that around 9-10 yo you should look for a good instructional allstar team whether they travel or not. TRYING TO BREAK INTO A GOOD ALLSTAR TEAM GETS HARDER EACH YEAR YOU WAIT.

You have no idea what you have with a 9U or 10U pitcher unless his dad is a former pro athlete. Even then, that isn't a guarantee.

I've never heard of a good pitcher having trouble finding a good team. No team with roster spots turns away quality pitching.

quote:

see some position players who are now milb pitchers who never pitched a game in their life, where did they acquire those skills? Not in youth ball, travel or rec, that is for sure.

I have seen that for years. If you have the arm strength to throw 90 the guys often play other positions including pitching . Joey Votto switched . BB skills are BB skills and at that stage in their life they can be quickly taught to pitch or what ever. They have to get to that level.
Joey when I knew him was a catcher who was moved to 3rd base by a Seattle scout who ran an elite team . He actually pitched prior to that. He now is moved all over the field.

MiLB is a place where their teams try to max what a drafted player can be to the club. If they see a guy who can throw 90+ they will often put them on the mound. Some learn well and others bomb.
As you always point out, you can't compare a pro/ college player to a kid.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com...g/V/Joey-Votto.shtml

BHD,
As to teh question asked, our youth travel ball was more of glorified rec ball, what exists today is completely differnt than back when he was in youth ball.
Yes, I do believe that he would be where he is because of his competitive nature and his love for the game, not because of the little travel ball he played back then.
Interestly enough, in HS, going into junior year, he was called and asked to play due to injured player on one of the best travel teams in the country. He said no, he much rather go on a summer vacation to the Hamptons with friends family and spend time at the beach (like we don't have that here). Was he worse off for not playing...absolutely no.
Entering HS, son was asked to play for one of the better fall travel teams in the area, he choose to play for another team with most of his friends. Was he worse off for not playinhg better competition, absolutely not. And even more, he passed up on playing for some of the better HS programs in HS, did it make a difference, no. He'd rather pitch against the best hitters than play with the best, makes sense to me!
Entering college was a whole different situation.

The point is, as I think that Daque is trying to make, if you got the goodsyou don't need all of that stuff until it really counts, and that is not necessarily in youth travel ball. Everyone is different, some do need that to improve, others just have to pick up the ball or bat and know instinctively what it's all about.

JMO.

You can banter this about all you like but the fact is the sooner you learn the better your odds are.

quote:

his competitive nature and his love for the game

That would prevent him from playing rec ball for very long.

I agree, don't compare milb to youth sports, so let's not go there with senior leagues as well.

And let's not compare our players to what they did at 9-10 to what they are doing at 22-23, everyone is different as I have tried to point out. You do NOT necessarily need to have all of the skills you learn in youth baseball to succeed. You do need to learn how to compete, but that is with everything in life, isn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:

quote:

his competitive nature and his love for the game

That would prevent him from playing rec ball for very long.

BHD,
What about all of the players that came before our sons that just played street ball, or no rec ball?

Did Greg Maddux play elite travel ball?

I do not disagree that better competition makes for a better player, but does it matter before you get to the 60/90 field?

I can't quite get my arms around the point to this whole thread. I'm sure all posters here in this thread had all their sons play beyond the rec season at some point up until they're 12 yrs old.

Up to 12, my son played rec, tried out and made the Ripken district all-star team that also played in open tournaments during the summer and Cooperstown at 12. Therefore, he played beyond rec ball, got good coaching and learned what it's like to play with and against ballplayers with advanced skills.

Is there any parent here who's kid played their 15 games of spring rec ball, did noting else baseball related until next spring, play more rec ball and then went on to play HS baseball?

I get the sense there isn't anyone here that has a kid who went this route. Is it possible? I suppose so but I doubt it.

My guess is the ones who have are the players who have that untapped talent and skills that could be refined. There aren't too many of those since these are athletes gifted with special tools who had no interest in playing organized baseball and one day just decided he wanted to try out for the HS team.

I would like to read a post from somebody who's kid did make their HS varsity team that played strictly rec ball.

quote:

Everyone is different, some do need that to improve, others just have to pick up the ball or bat and know instinctively what it's all about.

The ones that need youth travel ball to improve may survive one more year than they otherwise would have but that is about it. Travel ball can only accelerate the learned skills development but only to the level that innate ability will permit. By the time HS ball comes around the innate abilities are becoming pretty obvious and smoothed out. Somewhere around age 16 years predictions about future success becomes more accurate.

Playing travel or rec for fun is important so you can grow in skills anad the speed of the game. But on the small diamond adult observers should not expect a return on their investment. The players must prove themselves all over again when they step up onto the full sized diamond.

I am not disagreeing with BHD, he makes good points, I just don't see the benefit of playing travel ball for very young players. I don't think the discussion is about it in general other than it shoulod be fun, just if at young ages it actually will produce the results you want when thr player is getting ready for the recruiting process or the draft or for even making teh HS team. Daque is correct, there is a process where the herd becomes a bit thinner, and those with the physical and mental skills (not just the elite player) will move forward.

FWI, here is an interesting article I found, son played for Mike Roberts in HS, senior summer (it was the same team that he passed up the summer before). Great team, great man (tough as nails but loved those kids) who made sure his players were seen by the right people for their ability, not all players on son's team went onto play college ball, but most likely gained those life skills needed to survive at teh next level (in son's case college). I remember son's pitching coach saying if son could play for Mike he could play for anyone.
My point is, will these 9 year olds be playing in HS?

BTW, IS there such a thing as local rec ball anymore in most places?

http://www.travelballselect.co...w&id=2275&Itemid=189

BOBBLE ... Why do you keep bringing a preteen conversation back to the D1 and pro level when what a kid does at the preteen level has NOTHING to do with making a high school, college or pro team? No one is scouting the 50/70 fields except 13U coaches. No high school, college or pro scout is creating a watch list because some preteen is crushing the ball or smoking hitters from the mound. Is rec baseball that bad in Canada to make you think the way you do?

The LL all-star team my son played on when he was eleven has three players committed to D1's. There were two 11's I suspect will also play D1. That's five D1 players from one LL all-star team.

The best player (biggest, fastest, strongest, big arm) on the team didn't make his high school baseball team. In fact, I never see his name in the paper in any sport. Seems he physically peaked at twelve.

How this team was mismanaged into not winning states and beyond is an amazing story of bad coaching and daddyball. However, the LL all-star team that won states has four potential D1 players.

I could say it was great development and training for my son to catch three developing, future D1 pitchers in LL all-stars. One was a teammate he caught all season. The thing is, my son hasn't caught since 13U. Besides, these pitchers weren't throwing 87-90+ with great movement in LL.

If you think that where you end up has nothing to with what you do to lead up to it, you sure kidding yourself.
Keep spinning anecdotal garbage. Yes rec ball is that bad here and most states I have seen.
If the travel teams keep expending as they have it is obvious that the demand is there. I am sure that there are some sane parents involved.

quote:

The ones that need youth travel ball to improve may survive one more year than they otherwise would have but that is about it. Travel ball can only accelerate the learned skills development but only to the level that innate ability will permit. By the time HS ball comes around the innate abilities are becoming pretty obvious and smoothed out. Somewhere around age 16 years predictions about future success becomes more accurate.

Playing travel or rec for fun is important so you can grow in skills anad the speed of the game. But on the small diamond adult observers should not expect a return on their investment. The players must prove themselves all over again when they step up onto the full sized diamond.

Total garbage.

quote:

I can't quite get my arms around the point to this whole thread. I'm sure all posters here in this thread had all their sons play beyond the rec season at some point up until they're 12 yrs old.

Up to 12, my son played rec, tried out and made the Ripken district all-star team that also played in open tournaments during the summer and Cooperstown at 12. Therefore, he played beyond rec ball, got good coaching and learned what it's like to play with and against ballplayers with advanced skills.

Is there any parent here who's kid played their 15 games of spring rec ball, did noting else baseball related until next spring, play more rec ball and then went on to play HS baseball?

I get the sense there isn't anyone here that has a kid who went this route. Is it possible? I suppose so but I doubt it.

My guess is the ones who have are the players who have that untapped talent and skills that could be refined. There aren't too many of those since these are athletes gifted with special tools who had no interest in playing organized baseball and one day just decided he wanted to try out for the HS team.

I would like to read a post from somebody who's kid did make their HS varsity team that played strictly rec ball.

I can't either.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
If you think that where you end up has nothing to with what you do to lead up to it, you sure kidding yourself.
Keep spinning anecdotal garbage. Yes rec ball is that bad here and most states I have seen.
If the travel teams keep expending as they have it is obvious that the demand is there. I am sure that there are some sane parents involved.

BHD,
You stated that rec ball is bad where you are, so geographically we have to take each thing into consideration.

quote:

If the travel teams keep expending as they have it is obvious that the demand is there. I am sure that there are some sane parents involved.

TPM: I am aware that the quote above is not yours. But taking the astatement at face value, it would mean that there are more rec kids going to make travel teams. But in BHD's areaa, all rec teams suck. So this would mean that the quality of travel ball will go down. Well, in Canada that is. Of course, the lowly rec coaches would also be involved. What a dillema!

Fortunately, I do not have to read his ignorant and hateful diatribes anymore.

You can tell Daque our coaches are all level 2 certified and the travel teams have lost coaching and better player to the elite teams.
Originally elite teams were 18-19U now some have gone to 15U due to demand. The coaching is superior in most cases and usually pro old timers and pro scouts.
How can Daque draw conclusions with his under lying lack of experience in todays environment. I have watched as most have as showcases and elite teams have become the norm. We used to get 50-60 scouts at tournaments and now you are lucky to get a few.
I also resent his loftier than thou attitude toward parents who support their players by putting them in travel ball to give them a better chance at succeeding . In BB very few will go past HS, fewer past college and a minuscule number to MLB .
The one Bios I posted was a guy who was AAA and was MiLB pitcher of the year and he didn't make it. Hung Cho was arguably the best SS I ever watched who dropped out at AAA because he got tired of not advancing. Both these guys played organized travel ball before 10 yo.

quote:

What a dilemma!

Not a dilemma. More kids with potential signing up to play all levels of travel ball at all level. Rec coaches have to get certified and they have to show a level of knowledge to do so.
Most don't bother if their sons don't make a travel team. Many of out travel coaches don't have kids on teams anymore as they have graduated or stopped playing.
One team had Don Colpoys , Don Cageano and afew others . Colpoys was the longest reigning D1 coach at the time. Cageano was a pro coach who left in the spring. Both these gentlemen were in their 70s. Our winter workouts included instruction by pros.

The only conclusion that I can reach from what I read here is that the greatest baseball imaginable must be played in Canada and at the cheapest price. Who knew?

I have never seen anyone in the west play travel baseball for $300 to $500 per year (unless someone else picked up the tab, which I have also seen). And in fact, if paying for college is the goal, I don't know anyone who would be better off spending money on baseball because the amount spent exceeds the amount of nearly any baseball scholarship I have encountered (Stanford or USC and other similarly expensive schools excluded for very large grants -- and since I am paying about half-tuition to send my daughter to USC I have a great sense of the cost of the truly expensive schools). In the vast majority of instances, it would be better to save and invest the money spent on baseball.

In regard to what is garbage, Daque makes all the sense in the world to me. At a minimum, he has done nothing but state his opinion and does not deserve attack. I don't understand where your anger comes from, Bobblehead. Maybe Daque and I are both wrong, but this is from a guy (me) who has experienced every kind of travel baseball that exists (as a parent, coach and administrator) and who has not hesitated to spend many thousands of dollars in the process.

It is fun, but it is also unnecessary until the field gets bigger -- and not even required then, although at this point I am doing nothing other than repeat myself. Talent is the ultimate determining factor, followed by great coaching -- wherever it might be found and hard work).

But to each their own. What we are discussing here are many approaches -- and I have never known a single approach that is the correct one every time.

That is your travel teams which gave way to elite ball. Now $5000 to $10,000.
Did you watch Marcel at ASU. There were more just like him. He also played from an early age on travel teams.
I had a great return on my BB investment otherwise my son was staying here. We spent between 6 and 7 thousand since he was 9 yo.
Believe me I have no anger about this or any other topic I voice strong opinions about. What you call rec may be a high level ball under a misnomer. happen to live in a heavily populated area that provides high level sports especially in hockey and BB. Daque reveals a contempt to wards parents who wish to place their son's on travel teams and that is the basis of his idle musings. He in fact hijacked the thread with his garbage. The original thread was about good and bad experiences with travel ball. To me a mush more worthwhile topic.

Is it a coincidence that we produce some of the top hockey players in the world ? That one of my son's female friends was the top D1 NCAA womens hockey players. It's no coincidence that we have athletes placed all over the USA in Hockey,Rowing, Basketball, Lacrosse volley ball, swimming and so on.
Could it be the early development of our athletes. Look at Russia and other power house countries. They develop their athletes an a very early age. They force their kids to excel.

jemaz: I have blocked viewing posts from three members of this board, at least two of whom are Old Timers which I have concluded is like tenure. That is, it is based on time served rather than the quality of the posts.

I believe that one is so disappointed and angry that his son decided to hang it up. That reflects itself in his rigidity and unwillingness to consider opinions other than his own anad when he gets stuck he difts off topic. He does not accept the concept that innate ability trumps learned skills. So be it.

What amazes me is that coaches with common sense continue to communicate with him. His own mental health would have him ignore my posts but he just cannot help himself.

I know that Canada is different from main sream baseball in the US and perhaps that is a part of the misunderstanding. But them his inconsistancy of positions and failure to address issues raised in a direct manner is a hinderence to constructive communication.

I believe it was Mark Twain who said that he refrained from arguing with fools lest the bystanders could not tell which is the fool.

I imagine this will bring about another innane tirade which I also will not see.

quote:

jemaz: I have blocked viewing posts from three members of this board, at least two of whom are Old Timers which I have concluded is like tenure. That is, it is based on time served rather than the quality of the posts.

I believe that one is so disappointed and angry that his son decided to hang it up. That reflects itself in his rigidity and unwillingness to consider opinions other than his own anad when he gets stuck he difts off topic. He does not accept the concept that innate ability trumps learned skills. So be it.

Another dumb comment.

Even the late great Chris O'Leary couldn't get me to push the ignore button.

Bobblehead:

Marcel failed to last the season at ASU and did not return this year. The Sun Devils ended their season two years ago with their former bullpen catcher at short, because, unfortunately, he was the best they had. If Marcel is the example, and no disrespect meant to him, then I would say definitely it does not matter much where a kid plays.

As far as elite ball and the other terms, at this point I have no idea what you mean. It is not that way here.

Sorry Marcel was drafted.

And yet not a good point in support of your views. Lots of guys get drafted, including several I know who never played on any kind of high-level tournament team and some who actually got cut from their high school teams.

Spare me the buts, and I know guys who.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/...t=number&ft=CT&fv=CA

If Marcel didn't play last half it was becaise he had poor marks but I follwoed him and I didn't notice that.