100 games @ 6.5 innings per game = 650 innings.
I know that Travel Teams are "Loaded" with pitching, but there are probably 4-5 or fewer who do most of the pitching. I've been there for years and not all teams do that but many do.
A kid throwing 100 innings or more on a team like that is not unusual. When a kid throws in relief to get to the Championship game of a Tourney and then pitches the Championship game as well that same day many weekends a season it isn't a good thing. I know there are good coaches who don't abuse their pitchers, but there are many others who do.
Keep in mind: A quick look at Stanford University and The University of Notre Dame Showed only 4 pitchers on the 2 teams combined threw more than 75 innings and only 1 threw 100 innings. These players are far more mature and developed than these younger Travel Players who are throwing more. I know they also play summer ball, but again they are more mature. Only good ML Starters throw much more than 100 innings these days, adn of course most ML pitchers throw far less than 100 innings.
I know there are those who think kids need to throw more and not less, but there is a difference between pitchign in a game and throwing on the side or in drills.
Anything that can be accomplished in 100 games for 12 and under can be accomplished in 65-70.
13 and older is different, but I question the number of pitchers needed to do so.
At the risk of trying to reason with an unreasonable person:
1. I never said you had to play 600-700 games to be ready for travel ball. My own son did that, and we did it because we loved every minute of it. And we still do it, because we still love every minute of it. But I specifically said that you didn't have to start as young as he did to succeed.
2. I did say that I thought a kid who didn't do at least some travel ball by age 14 would be behind the curve. I'll stand by that. It is true there are some bad travel coaches, both in terms of instructional ability and in terms of their adult example. It is the parents' job to choose the right team with the right coaches and the right philosophy for your son. There is no question in my mind that a boy who is in a good program will get a leg up on his competition. Solid instruction, challenging situations, repetition and just familiarity with the thinking process of the game all come with going beyond local rec leagues and taking on more play.
Your typical LL dad, with one practice and 2 rec level games per week, cannot develop a player's talent and skills the way a quality travel program can.
3. Practice should not be forsaken in favor of more games.
4. A travel team that overpitches young boys is one to get the heck off of ASAP.
5. Just to give you an idea of how we ran things:
When my son was 8, the 9-year-old LL all star team was wiped out by kids who chose to go to AAU nationals instead. So the next year, we built a travel program that required the kids to stay in the LL program as a condition of team membership. Then we built our travel team schedule around LL. LL played or practiced two nights, Mon-Thurs, and had a Sat game as well. We practiced Friday evenings and played on Sundays. We took a 6-week break to accommodate LL all star play, then took a summer trip to a tournament. Then we had a fall schedule, when LL didn't play at all.
We did about 20 LL games and 20 travel games in the spring, 5 all star games and 5 travel games in the summer, and 20 travel games in the fall. Sometimes we got rained out, so it would range between 60-70 total games/year.
Most of our "travel" opponents were teams that we encouraged to do as we had done, from LL's in our immediate area. So we didn't travel overnight at all. Most of the time we played at home, or just across town.
Basically we had the LL all stars, we just played a lot more than the one week you get in your typical LL district tournament.
Our local LL still accommodates this model of travel ball, and in fact there are and have been teams of this nature at every age level ever since we created the model. I'm not saying we were the first to do it anywhere, but we were the first to do it around here.
6. One thing PlayBall2 seems to misunderstand about travel ball is, you don't force anybody into anything. Players choose the teams they like the most, and if you don't offer what they want, they leave. Even if I had wanted to (not that I did), I could not have forced anyone to play more than they wanted to. And yes, we let kids miss team practices and games to go to scouting trips, family events, piano recitals, church retreats, whatever.
We had boys who loved baseball, who wanted to play it regularly and play it as well as they could. But we wanted them also to become fine young men. I'd like to think we accomplished those goals.
It's not the same as HS ball, where you get the coach you get and the player has to live with him, whether he's good or bad. In HS, the coach can have a "my way or the highway" attitude and get away with it, because his players for the most part are not free to go somewhere else. PB2, chew on that for a while and tell me some more about "red flags".
PB2, you ask me to answer your questions. What questions did I not answer? All I see is you flying off the handle, apparently because you have some gripe with some impression you have of travel ball teams and coaches. I can't speak for everyone, but you don't know me, you don't know my son, you don't know my team. Consider the possibility that you are indicting travel ball as a whole based on a few bad apples. Yes, there are bad apples, but a whole lot of good folks, too.
1. I never said you had to play 600-700 games to be ready for travel ball. My own son did that, and we did it because we loved every minute of it. And we still do it, because we still love every minute of it. But I specifically said that you didn't have to start as young as he did to succeed.
2. I did say that I thought a kid who didn't do at least some travel ball by age 14 would be behind the curve. I'll stand by that. It is true there are some bad travel coaches, both in terms of instructional ability and in terms of their adult example. It is the parents' job to choose the right team with the right coaches and the right philosophy for your son. There is no question in my mind that a boy who is in a good program will get a leg up on his competition. Solid instruction, challenging situations, repetition and just familiarity with the thinking process of the game all come with going beyond local rec leagues and taking on more play.
Your typical LL dad, with one practice and 2 rec level games per week, cannot develop a player's talent and skills the way a quality travel program can.
3. Practice should not be forsaken in favor of more games.
4. A travel team that overpitches young boys is one to get the heck off of ASAP.
5. Just to give you an idea of how we ran things:
When my son was 8, the 9-year-old LL all star team was wiped out by kids who chose to go to AAU nationals instead. So the next year, we built a travel program that required the kids to stay in the LL program as a condition of team membership. Then we built our travel team schedule around LL. LL played or practiced two nights, Mon-Thurs, and had a Sat game as well. We practiced Friday evenings and played on Sundays. We took a 6-week break to accommodate LL all star play, then took a summer trip to a tournament. Then we had a fall schedule, when LL didn't play at all.
We did about 20 LL games and 20 travel games in the spring, 5 all star games and 5 travel games in the summer, and 20 travel games in the fall. Sometimes we got rained out, so it would range between 60-70 total games/year.
Most of our "travel" opponents were teams that we encouraged to do as we had done, from LL's in our immediate area. So we didn't travel overnight at all. Most of the time we played at home, or just across town.
Basically we had the LL all stars, we just played a lot more than the one week you get in your typical LL district tournament.
Our local LL still accommodates this model of travel ball, and in fact there are and have been teams of this nature at every age level ever since we created the model. I'm not saying we were the first to do it anywhere, but we were the first to do it around here.
6. One thing PlayBall2 seems to misunderstand about travel ball is, you don't force anybody into anything. Players choose the teams they like the most, and if you don't offer what they want, they leave. Even if I had wanted to (not that I did), I could not have forced anyone to play more than they wanted to. And yes, we let kids miss team practices and games to go to scouting trips, family events, piano recitals, church retreats, whatever.
We had boys who loved baseball, who wanted to play it regularly and play it as well as they could. But we wanted them also to become fine young men. I'd like to think we accomplished those goals.
It's not the same as HS ball, where you get the coach you get and the player has to live with him, whether he's good or bad. In HS, the coach can have a "my way or the highway" attitude and get away with it, because his players for the most part are not free to go somewhere else. PB2, chew on that for a while and tell me some more about "red flags".
PB2, you ask me to answer your questions. What questions did I not answer? All I see is you flying off the handle, apparently because you have some gripe with some impression you have of travel ball teams and coaches. I can't speak for everyone, but you don't know me, you don't know my son, you don't know my team. Consider the possibility that you are indicting travel ball as a whole based on a few bad apples. Yes, there are bad apples, but a whole lot of good folks, too.
PB2 mid to late teens is when ball players quit. They are maturing and the hormones are kicking in. I have seen some great ball players who quit only to date girls, work etc. You can call it burnout but I don't. Burnout to me is cureable. Take a break and rest. The passion is still there you are mentally tired and physically tired. Losining the passion is having other things take over or redirect that passion. College ball will certainly test that passion. IMO those who quit in their teens just don't have the passion anymore and are better off finding out before going any further.
I have seen graet ball players who are now playing senior rec ball because they still love baseball but are not willing to commit to the work load. There is nothing wrong with that but they just don't have the desire to go for it. One guy was batting over 600 in the NABF WS about 5 years ago against the top teams in NA. East Cobb, Detroit Cobras, Long Island Tigers, Boys of Summer and several others. He just hung em up for rec ball and he is still pounding the ball out of the park. This had nothing to do with the number of games but a loss of desire. He was a top student and just had no interest in college ball.
I have seen graet ball players who are now playing senior rec ball because they still love baseball but are not willing to commit to the work load. There is nothing wrong with that but they just don't have the desire to go for it. One guy was batting over 600 in the NABF WS about 5 years ago against the top teams in NA. East Cobb, Detroit Cobras, Long Island Tigers, Boys of Summer and several others. He just hung em up for rec ball and he is still pounding the ball out of the park. This had nothing to do with the number of games but a loss of desire. He was a top student and just had no interest in college ball.
My experience.
It's kind of like comparing nirvana to the vast majority of travel programs, however, here are the numbers that the Palatine Travelers put up in 92 and 98.
These were 12 year old teams.
22 players
15-18 pitchers
162 games in 92 and 136 games in 98.
55 split squad games (2 seperate teams playing on the same day) in 92 and 42 split squad games in 98.
Our top pitcher in 92 worked approximately 90 innings. Went to Iowa on a D1 ship and played for the Oakland organization for 7 years.
Our top pitcher in 98 worked approximately 70 innings. He is at Bradley University on a 95% ship (Academic/Athletic combined)
Our top hitter in 92 attended Kentucky on a D1 ship.
Our top hitter in 98 is now at Florida State.
Our crafty lefty in 98 is now a crafty lefty at Coastal Carolina.(D1 ship)
The 92 team had players attend Florida International, Princeton,(turned down 1 million dollars) Iowa, Kentucky, Indiana, Creighton, 0aktonCC, St Joe's.....and....7 of the 8 played pro ball! 2 played in the Olympics!
The 98 team has players at FSU, Coastal, Bradley, Notre Dame (football ship), Akron (football ship), John Carroll (wrestling and football)and Augustana.
As you can see these were extaordinary teams with extraordinary players coached by the founder of Illinois travel ball, Tom Matsie.
As I look back on these 2 years (and 25 other years of Tom's Palatine teams) it would be very difficult to come up with such a diverse and talented team in 07....Why?..because there are sooooo many more teams and there aren't many coaches that even slightly compare with Tom.
Btw, even with the studs mentioned above we could never beat Upper Deck!
It's kind of like comparing nirvana to the vast majority of travel programs, however, here are the numbers that the Palatine Travelers put up in 92 and 98.
These were 12 year old teams.
22 players
15-18 pitchers
162 games in 92 and 136 games in 98.
55 split squad games (2 seperate teams playing on the same day) in 92 and 42 split squad games in 98.
Our top pitcher in 92 worked approximately 90 innings. Went to Iowa on a D1 ship and played for the Oakland organization for 7 years.
Our top pitcher in 98 worked approximately 70 innings. He is at Bradley University on a 95% ship (Academic/Athletic combined)
Our top hitter in 92 attended Kentucky on a D1 ship.
Our top hitter in 98 is now at Florida State.
Our crafty lefty in 98 is now a crafty lefty at Coastal Carolina.(D1 ship)
The 92 team had players attend Florida International, Princeton,(turned down 1 million dollars) Iowa, Kentucky, Indiana, Creighton, 0aktonCC, St Joe's.....and....7 of the 8 played pro ball! 2 played in the Olympics!
The 98 team has players at FSU, Coastal, Bradley, Notre Dame (football ship), Akron (football ship), John Carroll (wrestling and football)and Augustana.
As you can see these were extaordinary teams with extraordinary players coached by the founder of Illinois travel ball, Tom Matsie.
As I look back on these 2 years (and 25 other years of Tom's Palatine teams) it would be very difficult to come up with such a diverse and talented team in 07....Why?..because there are sooooo many more teams and there aren't many coaches that even slightly compare with Tom.
Btw, even with the studs mentioned above we could never beat Upper Deck!
I'm going to stick up for Playball2. I don't know him personally, but have seen him coach and the fruits of his labor are very evident if you watch his team. I also know several people who have given him very high praise, and although it was for just one game, he coached my son and although there is an on-the-field rivalry my son thought he was a great guy.
Arguing points is fine, but from everything I know and have seen his integrety should not be questioned. Don't forget, as parents we don't have quite the clear perspective that a good coach who is working at something they love has.
Now, if he could keep his first base coach in the box, we would all be happy.
Arguing points is fine, but from everything I know and have seen his integrety should not be questioned. Don't forget, as parents we don't have quite the clear perspective that a good coach who is working at something they love has.
Now, if he could keep his first base coach in the box, we would all be happy.
soxnole, it's fair to say that was a different era.
Sorry but I can't agree with those who say burnout does not occur. Yes, girls, cars, jobs and other sports do effect whether or not a kid keeps on playing. But a lot, maybe not your kid do have their fill of it. I know too many kids who had enough of baseball filling up their last 6 summers. That is a reasonable feeling for a well-rounded kid, especially one who has many freinds who don't play ball. Of course those kids who love it all the time, love it.
We talk about mental make up. These kids who quit do not have the mental make up required to succeed in BB even though they may have the talent. I have seen great ball players quit after 1 year or 2 years. You call it burnout I call it not having the mental make up. The ones who do want to play baseball every day. It obsesses them. my son all through school wrote essays and it always came down to baseball. Maybe you don't understand the level of dedication.
Fastball, I don't believe I questioned the man's integrity. And I have no basis for questioning his coaching skills, so I haven't done that, either.
I think he could be a little less eager on the trigger finger, though.
I think he could be a little less eager on the trigger finger, though.
OK.....it's better when it stays constructive. I'll just say that just because you disagree doesn't mean he is "unreasonable."
I believe I made my point in the value when I stated that, at least in my area, the competition is so high that your chances of making the HS Varsity Team not having palyed travel with over 100 games a year was very difficult, and that if you didn’t, for the vast majority of kids it was basically the end of their baseball career. But I'll go a bit further just for Playball2....
How many kids Play T-ball??? Around here there are 5 little leagues and one Pony league that feed into two HS programs. On top of that there are a number of kids that go and play travel ball exclusively. Typically each league will have 8 to 12 T-ball teams… with 14-15 kids on each one. So lets round it and say 150 kids per league play T-ball, Total around 900. A little over Half are brand new 5 year olds the other half are 6 year olds. So say about 450 kids in our area start out as 5 year olds playing baseball. By the time he gets to LL MAJORS, there are 8 teams each league with 10 11 and 12 year olds making the rosters of 12 players So lets assume 40% are 12 year olds. 8x6=48x12x0.4 = 230 or about half the kids have already left the game.
After 12 the leagues reduce down to ONE Senior LL and one Pony league, and a number of travel ball teams. The teams now are down to 6 or 8 per league and say 2-3 local travel teams, (although the TOP players will travel out of te AREA to elite teams) (but also kids from outside the area will join the local clubs). So at 13-14… there are now approximately 17 teams with 12 players half of which are 13 and 14… so we are down to 100 or so at 13 and 14 are still playing baseball…
High School comes around and our HS both have a Freshman team. They typically carry around 16 players, once in a while a player is good enough to go to varsity, maybe a couple make JV… so lets say 20 freshmen make it at each school… Typically 50-60 kids try out at each school but 30-40 of them get whittled down. Now for most kids if they don’t make their HS teams their baseball career is over. Some continue to play senior league but it is reduced to 3-4 teams barely getting 10 players per… Also I’ve not known of one kid to not make Freshman team and come back and make a JV or Varsity team later on, in this area. Reality is maybe 50 or so kids in the area are still playing baseball at age 15. I’d say 30-35 of them played travel ball and over 25 of them since they were 10-11 years old.
Let’s talk more about HS. In our area the coach can move players between JV and Varsity during the year. So varsity only carries 9 to max of 11 position players and 5 or 6 Ps for any game. (typically one of the position players is an emergency Catcher and only catches bullpens) (and then there is a Utility player in case of injury) (with a couple pitchers being able to play the field also) Typically there are about 7-8 seniors 4-6 juniors 1-3 sophs. (and the Sophs will be starting). JV will carry around 18 players as some float back and forth if need by the Varsity team. JV will not carry a SENIOR. So each year 20 freshman from the previous have to fit into the 7-8 graduating seniors slots and dropped juniors not good to make the varsity as a senior. I’d guess about a third do not make it JV. So we are down to 14 or 15 Sophs. At 16 and you get your license, and you haven’t made your HS team, not many are playing baseball. So its down to 30-40 kids at age 16
Next year and all the above mentioned players are a year older so 12 JV soph are now Juniors have to vie with the 6-8 JV new seniros to try to fill the 7-8 vacated spots by graduated seniors. There are already 1-3 starting jrs that will get their spots back and 4-6 Srs. Plus the possibility of a TRANSFER moving into the district, But lets say 3 JV Srs move up and 3 Jrs and maybe 1-2 soph that means- 4-6 Sr are cut. So we now have have 7-8 seniors, 4-6 Jrs 1-3 sophs again on Varsity. So as a 17 year old junior there are now 4-6 on varsity, 6-8 on JV and not many others playing REC. So say in our community there are about 25 17 yo still playing ball.
You can see above that it is then reduced again as a senior, to 15-17 18 year olds playing
So based on the numbers in an article in on this site..
1 high school player in every 10 has a chance to play in college
1 player in 94 will be selected in the Major League Baseball Draft or another article saying
Approximately one in 200, or approximately 0.5 percent of high school senior boys playing interscholastic baseball will eventually be drafted by an MLB team.
So Statistics say that only 2 players in our area should go on to play College each year and only one player every 5-6 years will be drafted by the pros.. Well from my sons senior year alone… I know of 10 players that got some sort of Scholarship awards. There were 6 players Drafted by the MLB. 3 of those are playing pro ball now. There are 6 or 7 Div 1 players still playing, and 4 more I know of playing for JCs.
So all but 2 or 3 of those seniors are still playing ball.
So instead of a 10 percent chance to play ball College ball
It turns into almost 80% are either College or pro.
Instead of 1 in 94 or 1 in 200 chance of being drafted we had 33 % drafted.
To add to that there are 5 players since 2000 that came from my son’s HS that have made over $1 million via baseball, 2 are major leaguers now and at least 7 or 8 still in the minors. (I’ve lost track of the players from the other HS)
All of them Played TRAVEL BALL at least from age 13 on most of them from 10 year old. So I’d say that is some evidence of what the difference can be by playing 100 or more games a year.
I know the extremes... I have one son who loves it and another, who would rather play video games.
How many kids Play T-ball??? Around here there are 5 little leagues and one Pony league that feed into two HS programs. On top of that there are a number of kids that go and play travel ball exclusively. Typically each league will have 8 to 12 T-ball teams… with 14-15 kids on each one. So lets round it and say 150 kids per league play T-ball, Total around 900. A little over Half are brand new 5 year olds the other half are 6 year olds. So say about 450 kids in our area start out as 5 year olds playing baseball. By the time he gets to LL MAJORS, there are 8 teams each league with 10 11 and 12 year olds making the rosters of 12 players So lets assume 40% are 12 year olds. 8x6=48x12x0.4 = 230 or about half the kids have already left the game.
After 12 the leagues reduce down to ONE Senior LL and one Pony league, and a number of travel ball teams. The teams now are down to 6 or 8 per league and say 2-3 local travel teams, (although the TOP players will travel out of te AREA to elite teams) (but also kids from outside the area will join the local clubs). So at 13-14… there are now approximately 17 teams with 12 players half of which are 13 and 14… so we are down to 100 or so at 13 and 14 are still playing baseball…
High School comes around and our HS both have a Freshman team. They typically carry around 16 players, once in a while a player is good enough to go to varsity, maybe a couple make JV… so lets say 20 freshmen make it at each school… Typically 50-60 kids try out at each school but 30-40 of them get whittled down. Now for most kids if they don’t make their HS teams their baseball career is over. Some continue to play senior league but it is reduced to 3-4 teams barely getting 10 players per… Also I’ve not known of one kid to not make Freshman team and come back and make a JV or Varsity team later on, in this area. Reality is maybe 50 or so kids in the area are still playing baseball at age 15. I’d say 30-35 of them played travel ball and over 25 of them since they were 10-11 years old.
Let’s talk more about HS. In our area the coach can move players between JV and Varsity during the year. So varsity only carries 9 to max of 11 position players and 5 or 6 Ps for any game. (typically one of the position players is an emergency Catcher and only catches bullpens) (and then there is a Utility player in case of injury) (with a couple pitchers being able to play the field also) Typically there are about 7-8 seniors 4-6 juniors 1-3 sophs. (and the Sophs will be starting). JV will carry around 18 players as some float back and forth if need by the Varsity team. JV will not carry a SENIOR. So each year 20 freshman from the previous have to fit into the 7-8 graduating seniors slots and dropped juniors not good to make the varsity as a senior. I’d guess about a third do not make it JV. So we are down to 14 or 15 Sophs. At 16 and you get your license, and you haven’t made your HS team, not many are playing baseball. So its down to 30-40 kids at age 16
Next year and all the above mentioned players are a year older so 12 JV soph are now Juniors have to vie with the 6-8 JV new seniros to try to fill the 7-8 vacated spots by graduated seniors. There are already 1-3 starting jrs that will get their spots back and 4-6 Srs. Plus the possibility of a TRANSFER moving into the district, But lets say 3 JV Srs move up and 3 Jrs and maybe 1-2 soph that means- 4-6 Sr are cut. So we now have have 7-8 seniors, 4-6 Jrs 1-3 sophs again on Varsity. So as a 17 year old junior there are now 4-6 on varsity, 6-8 on JV and not many others playing REC. So say in our community there are about 25 17 yo still playing ball.
You can see above that it is then reduced again as a senior, to 15-17 18 year olds playing
So based on the numbers in an article in on this site..
1 high school player in every 10 has a chance to play in college
1 player in 94 will be selected in the Major League Baseball Draft or another article saying
Approximately one in 200, or approximately 0.5 percent of high school senior boys playing interscholastic baseball will eventually be drafted by an MLB team.
So Statistics say that only 2 players in our area should go on to play College each year and only one player every 5-6 years will be drafted by the pros.. Well from my sons senior year alone… I know of 10 players that got some sort of Scholarship awards. There were 6 players Drafted by the MLB. 3 of those are playing pro ball now. There are 6 or 7 Div 1 players still playing, and 4 more I know of playing for JCs.
So all but 2 or 3 of those seniors are still playing ball.
So instead of a 10 percent chance to play ball College ball
It turns into almost 80% are either College or pro.
Instead of 1 in 94 or 1 in 200 chance of being drafted we had 33 % drafted.
To add to that there are 5 players since 2000 that came from my son’s HS that have made over $1 million via baseball, 2 are major leaguers now and at least 7 or 8 still in the minors. (I’ve lost track of the players from the other HS)
All of them Played TRAVEL BALL at least from age 13 on most of them from 10 year old. So I’d say that is some evidence of what the difference can be by playing 100 or more games a year.
I know the extremes... I have one son who loves it and another, who would rather play video games.
quote:I know too many kids who had enough of baseball filling up their last 6 summers.
FastballDad
Burnout is not a question of NUMBER of GAMES...
Its more like a supply vs demand curve.
or as I like to say a REWARD vs WORK curve
A kid will continue to play a game or do anything as long as his PERCEIVED REWARDS are greater or equal to the amount of his PERCEIVED WORK he has to expend. The kids that love it have a low PERCEIVED WORK.... The kids that are GOOD get a GREATER PERCEIVED REWARD. Add both and they go a long ways...
Have nieither and they QUIT early, Not a enough of one vs the other they "BURNOUT"
Its not a matter of the number of games. Its a matter of the makeup of the kid... and his ability to garner whatever rewards that can keep him motivated.
For example I'll use myself... I was a pretty good athlete but was a backup for football, couldn't make the lineup for baseball, as my father didn't allow me to play LL and I couldn't hit a curveball. But I was a GREAT swimmer.. and went on to play college Waterpolo and became a national champion. So I went where the reward was greatest, and best suited my ability, even though I love the game of baseball and the fact Swimming is a LOT of work... But after college I've not played one game of Water polo. Did I burnout or did my priorities and opportunities or REWARDS change???? Hey I had to get a job...
Another story, I wanted to play the guitar, but didn't have that talent, I'd practice and practice but that wasn't my talent and so I wans't very good... I wanted it, but the work it would require to overcome my lack of talent was too much, so I gave up... Did I burn out or realize my where my talents lie???
I'm saying to make it to the top of a sport or profession... You have to LOVE it and being willing to OUT WORK the other guy. And be blessed with some talent.
There are thousands of kids out there working their butts off... The one that really LOVES it and was born with some talent, will evetually make it... but it is a very exclusive group and only a few do make it to the top.
HS is a step along the way... Many kids stop the journey here. Depending on the area you live, there are different circumstances you have to face, and different levels you must accomplish to compete. Some areas such as the one I live it require you to outwork and out perform a HOST of very good players. You do what you have to do...
But when the choices then reach college or pro, the circumstance narrow, and the kids who put in a lot more work will show it...
So What's right for me or my kids may not be for your kids... but based on the stats I provided above... I'd say 100 or more games of travel ball was a right choice for a lot of kids in my area.
Both of my boys started playing travel ball when they were 10 years old. They both went through the Lake Villa travel program. They went on to play high school ball. My oldest son played varsity as a starting pitcher/first baseman. My youngest son (now a junior at Grant High School) played varsity as a starting pitcher/first baseman as a freshman. They did not "burnout" in high school. In fact, my older son played summer ball with the Kenosha Indians and my younger son currently plays summer and fall ball with the Kenosha Indians.
SDBB..
My son did/does play Travel Ball, and will continue after High School. I don't think everyone's experience is the same. Simply put, I know SOME kids who were terrific players who I believe would have played longer had they not played so much so young.
They were successful all along and got what you are calling a "greater reward." Regardless, they quit along the way in spite of that. I never said all kids will have burnout.
My son did/does play Travel Ball, and will continue after High School. I don't think everyone's experience is the same. Simply put, I know SOME kids who were terrific players who I believe would have played longer had they not played so much so young.
They were successful all along and got what you are calling a "greater reward." Regardless, they quit along the way in spite of that. I never said all kids will have burnout.
It does make a difference where one lives, cold or warm weather. All 3 of my sons wanted to play as much or as many games of baseball in Illinois because you could only play a certain number of months out of the year. Then you went to the next sport, football, basketball or the dreaded s____er. Go to Texas and you can play almost 12 months out of the year. My oldest played high school ball starting in January, after losing in the playoffs he played summer ball, he then went to the Connie Mack World Series in New Mexico flying home on the Friday before school started, baseball started again because we have baseball class everyday, fall ball with school team and travel team starts then and then the holidays are here. He loves baseball but there are times when he needs a break even if it is just for a week. BobbleheadDoll, how many months can you get in up in Canada? You say "We talk about mental make up. These kids who quit do not have the mental make up required to succeed in BB even though they may have the talent. I have seen great ball players quit after 1 year or 2 years. You call it burnout I call it not having the mental make up. The ones who do want to play baseball every day. It obsesses them. my son all through school wrote essays and it always came down to baseball. Maybe you don't understand the level of dedication." I disagree with this. My son loves baseball and when he says he needs a break, I don't think that is not having the mental makeup. I think it is just needing a break and if you can get breaks, from the weather or sport change, travel ball is ok. My oldest is 17 but I wouldn't want my 13 year old to have the same schedule.
Hey soxnole how many of those kids were from Palatine?
SBDD thats only evidence that you area has some talented kids, how does the 100 games factor into all of your math numbers?
SBDD thanks again for proving my points with your second posting. These are not kids that lacked talent or desire to compete at the highest levels of the game. They just did not want to continue playing the game. Too much, Too soon.
Sorry for the long post. Just some of my random thoughts...
LLdad96, my answer to you is simple...when they want to. Find out exactly what is involved in your area, explain to your son what he will need to do, and ask him if he wants to. If he says no, he's probably not ready.
SDBB, thanks for the thorough arguments...very good information. I would guess that playing in San Diego, the baseball season is a little longer than in Illinois, so some of your reasoning about 100+ games played may not directly apply to those of us playing around the weather. But I have to say I enjoyed the posts.
Soxnole, I don't think that your teams with 22 players (15 - 18 pitchers) is standard. Many teams carry 11 or 12 players and still play 90 to 130 or more games. I wish it weren't true.
All I know is that there is a real danger from too much pitching at too young of an age. I am one of the believers in lots of throwing, but not lots of pitching.
If you coach a 10U - 13U team and you are playing 100+ games in Illinois' short season and everyone is throwing curve balls and sliders, you are hurting kids.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of it going on. Watch the LL World Series and almost every kid throws a slider (most of them call it a curve, but it very rarely is).
To me, this is the bottom line. There are good coaches out there and, as parents, you need to seek them out.
If you find coaches who know baseball and always put the kids' needs first (regardless of wins & losses), your kid will do well for as long as he wants to and/or is able to.
Mike F
quote:Originally posted by LLdad96:
What is a good age for kids to start travel ball?
LLdad96, my answer to you is simple...when they want to. Find out exactly what is involved in your area, explain to your son what he will need to do, and ask him if he wants to. If he says no, he's probably not ready.
SDBB, thanks for the thorough arguments...very good information. I would guess that playing in San Diego, the baseball season is a little longer than in Illinois, so some of your reasoning about 100+ games played may not directly apply to those of us playing around the weather. But I have to say I enjoyed the posts.
Soxnole, I don't think that your teams with 22 players (15 - 18 pitchers) is standard. Many teams carry 11 or 12 players and still play 90 to 130 or more games. I wish it weren't true.
All I know is that there is a real danger from too much pitching at too young of an age. I am one of the believers in lots of throwing, but not lots of pitching.
If you coach a 10U - 13U team and you are playing 100+ games in Illinois' short season and everyone is throwing curve balls and sliders, you are hurting kids.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of it going on. Watch the LL World Series and almost every kid throws a slider (most of them call it a curve, but it very rarely is).
quote:Originally posted by North suburban ball: The most important thing to me in selecting where to have a kid play before high school is coaching.
To me, this is the bottom line. There are good coaches out there and, as parents, you need to seek them out.
If you find coaches who know baseball and always put the kids' needs first (regardless of wins & losses), your kid will do well for as long as he wants to and/or is able to.
Mike F
If I am grinding an axe it is on behalf of what I believe is best for kids. Anyone who knows me knows that.
I have no gripe, nor am I indicting travel (in fact I am helping a community member set up his program up, it is one of many that I have assisted, supported and coached) In fact I was an opposing coach against the 92 palatine travel team that soxnole spoke of earlier.
Fastball dad thanks for the support. I cant make any guarantees that my coach will stay in the box, but I will let him know that someone is watching.
I have no gripe, nor am I indicting travel (in fact I am helping a community member set up his program up, it is one of many that I have assisted, supported and coached) In fact I was an opposing coach against the 92 palatine travel team that soxnole spoke of earlier.
Fastball dad thanks for the support. I cant make any guarantees that my coach will stay in the box, but I will let him know that someone is watching.
Playball.... I honestly believe you are
That's great, but who appointed you? That's their parents job. And some parents are better than others, and have different viewpoints but its not our right to make decisions for them.
I know what I believe is best for my sons, but what worked for one hasn't for the other. So even within myself, I have to be flexible because I'm dealing with two different people. And its not easy.
Inexcusable...??? How many kids wished they had a chance to even decide if they DON'T want to play HS ball.. There are a whole lot more of those than might be in your scenario above... I know of 30 to 50 at our local HS every year that wish they had that choice and that is only the ones who had the courage to try out and fail.. there are many more who probably wished they could play but saw the competition or were afraid of failing so didn't even try.
And guess what... in 3-4 years over 90 percent of all players won't even have a CHOICE whether or not to be in or out of baseball.
Futhermore..... to continue a few more minutes on my soap box... I claim there is no such thing as BURNOUT. Its only a label used by other persons, who have no business judging others. Or as an excuse for not being willing to put in the work it takes to become GREAT, or the realization that you have reached the level of talent you possess and can go no further. As an athlete or participant in anything... You either want to do it or you don't. And there is a point in time in everyone's life where that decison is made. (or take a break and make it multiple times ala Michael Jordon) It’s a personal decision and there is not any other person on this earth to say that another person made a wrong decision, or should of stayed longer in the game. And I truly believe it would probably be made near the same time whether the person played 100s of games or not.
But what gives anyone the right to presume a person made a decision to quit too soon... and label it burnout. There are a lot more kids quitting for not being able to play enough than for over playing...
Did Barry Sanders Burnout? Did Sandy Koufax Burnout? Did the little kid who was better at music instead of baseball and quit after t-ball, burnout? Did the kid who chose Football over baseball burnout?? Did the kid who dropped out of HS and fell into drugs... burnout on education? (maybe we should cut back school days to less than 600) My kid played 10 games of PeeWee Football, hurt his shoulder and decided to quit... was that burnout? Maybe the injury was because of over use????
You can not make any of those presumptions.
Some of us can look at things differently than others. While others only see things things the way they want to... But no one has the right to criticize a decision of another person unless it bodily harms us or society.
The bottom line is each person (or parent in their guidance) has to evaluate THEIR situation, and react to THEIR envirnoment and come up with an answer of their own. But their decision (short of bodily harm) is never inexcusable.
quote:If I am grinding an axe it is on behalf of what I believe is best for kids
That's great, but who appointed you? That's their parents job. And some parents are better than others, and have different viewpoints but its not our right to make decisions for them.
I know what I believe is best for my sons, but what worked for one hasn't for the other. So even within myself, I have to be flexible because I'm dealing with two different people. And its not easy.
quote:because they have had enough, as they say "they have been playing all of their lives"(or since 9U)... But for a 14, 15, or 16 year old kid to say that to you is inexcusable.
Inexcusable...??? How many kids wished they had a chance to even decide if they DON'T want to play HS ball.. There are a whole lot more of those than might be in your scenario above... I know of 30 to 50 at our local HS every year that wish they had that choice and that is only the ones who had the courage to try out and fail.. there are many more who probably wished they could play but saw the competition or were afraid of failing so didn't even try.
And guess what... in 3-4 years over 90 percent of all players won't even have a CHOICE whether or not to be in or out of baseball.
Well, its a fact in many areas... because you have to compete to be the in the TOP 10-15 players from over 1000s that might want the same thing. So you can chose to do it or not, but you may not ever get a second chance. And 9 and 10 year old kids don't know this nor need to but as a parent you guide them with your knowledge. And no they don't need to play 100s games a season then, but by 12 a player in my area with aspirations of playing HS ball needs to start comparing himself to others in the area, that he will be competing with in 3 years, and if you are not in the upper echelon by then, you have your WORK CUT OUT for you to catch up, to try to reach one of the very FEW positions, I never said its impossible to do otherwise but its very improbable.quote:thought of having to have between six and seven hundred games in order to compete for a position on a high school baseball team is reprehensible
Futhermore..... to continue a few more minutes on my soap box... I claim there is no such thing as BURNOUT. Its only a label used by other persons, who have no business judging others. Or as an excuse for not being willing to put in the work it takes to become GREAT, or the realization that you have reached the level of talent you possess and can go no further. As an athlete or participant in anything... You either want to do it or you don't. And there is a point in time in everyone's life where that decison is made. (or take a break and make it multiple times ala Michael Jordon) It’s a personal decision and there is not any other person on this earth to say that another person made a wrong decision, or should of stayed longer in the game. And I truly believe it would probably be made near the same time whether the person played 100s of games or not.
But what gives anyone the right to presume a person made a decision to quit too soon... and label it burnout. There are a lot more kids quitting for not being able to play enough than for over playing...
Did Barry Sanders Burnout? Did Sandy Koufax Burnout? Did the little kid who was better at music instead of baseball and quit after t-ball, burnout? Did the kid who chose Football over baseball burnout?? Did the kid who dropped out of HS and fell into drugs... burnout on education? (maybe we should cut back school days to less than 600) My kid played 10 games of PeeWee Football, hurt his shoulder and decided to quit... was that burnout? Maybe the injury was because of over use????
You can not make any of those presumptions.
Some of us can look at things differently than others. While others only see things things the way they want to... But no one has the right to criticize a decision of another person unless it bodily harms us or society.
The bottom line is each person (or parent in their guidance) has to evaluate THEIR situation, and react to THEIR envirnoment and come up with an answer of their own. But their decision (short of bodily harm) is never inexcusable.
How do you find out what teams are in your area? I saw some ads in local newspapers for tryouts (Upper Deck Cougars, RB Junior Bulldogs, Berwyn Bulldogs, Scorpions, etc) but are there any websites or contacts for other teams? I'm sure there are many in the Chicago suburbs. I guess the next trick is finding out which ones have what you're looking for - number of games, good coaching, etc.
playball....About 5 of the 22 players were from Palatine.
This is where people make mistakes when deciding on which team to play.
It's first and foremost about the coach. The best teams with the best coaching are seldom found in LL, Pony or any "house league". If Tom Matsie had been restricted to Palatine player's only, there would have been an awful lot of high end player's that would have lost out.
Every person has their nitch. Some "house league" coaches are fabulous, most are so-so at best. In a house league with excellent coaching you still have the problem of missing talent. If you have a flame thrower, you'll have a heck of a time finding a qualified catcher. If you have a budding "pudge" behind the plate, can he throw with confidence to a base and have that player catch it?...maybe but probably not.
In a perfect world, travel teams allow the best to play with the best. That world has changed since 98. Imo, each community should make sure that the best talent in their league has a place to play with and against comparable talent. Small villages might have to recruit some talent in order to be competitive...so be it. Great teams, that play a regional or national type schedule, by the very nature of the competition, need to recruit from a large area.
Not every "travel team" can be the same. Sounds to me that you are stuck in "little league" mode.
This is where people make mistakes when deciding on which team to play.
It's first and foremost about the coach. The best teams with the best coaching are seldom found in LL, Pony or any "house league". If Tom Matsie had been restricted to Palatine player's only, there would have been an awful lot of high end player's that would have lost out.
Every person has their nitch. Some "house league" coaches are fabulous, most are so-so at best. In a house league with excellent coaching you still have the problem of missing talent. If you have a flame thrower, you'll have a heck of a time finding a qualified catcher. If you have a budding "pudge" behind the plate, can he throw with confidence to a base and have that player catch it?...maybe but probably not.
In a perfect world, travel teams allow the best to play with the best. That world has changed since 98. Imo, each community should make sure that the best talent in their league has a place to play with and against comparable talent. Small villages might have to recruit some talent in order to be competitive...so be it. Great teams, that play a regional or national type schedule, by the very nature of the competition, need to recruit from a large area.
Not every "travel team" can be the same. Sounds to me that you are stuck in "little league" mode.
My son is 14 now and started playing travel ball at 10, his team ended up playing 68 games last season, he then played about 15 more games for another team in the fall, not even close to playing 100+ games, the average in our area depending on the age level is 50 to 60 games, the travel teams that play close to 100 games are teams that are competing at a national level, we live in Illinois not Florida teams would have to play just about every day and advance to the championship game in every tournament they enter to get that many games in. And we would practice as much as we could, you have to remember in most areas field times are very limited with travel teams and house leagues both using the same fields.
On this so called subject of BURNOUT, I’m not sure a agree with some of the posts but I do know this, if my son tells me he wants to hang it up at 16 it will be his decision, but I do know that the years he played travel ball gave him some great experiences that he would not have gotten if he played in a house league. Pitching a 5 inning no hitter at Cooperstown Dreams Park, playing in Omaha during the College World Series and this coming season playing at East Cobb in Georgia, you don’t get those opportunities playing in a rec. league.
Are there some bad apples in travel ball? Yes there are, but they are in every youth sport not just travel baseball and the good coaches out weigh the bad, And I have read posts on this same message board about High School coaches over using a pitcher, so it’s not just limited to travel baseball it is at the next level also.
Lldad96, do your homework, ask questions to the coach of the teams you might be interested in. Try to find parents that have left that team, ask them why. Find out how much they work out in the winter before the season starts, most travel teams start working out in January at local training facilities. Ask the coach how many games he plans on playing and what tournaments he has entered. If your son is 12, try to find a team that has a spot at Cooperstown next season, There is a team every summer that takes 2 teams and hold tryouts in April or May, they are the Chicago North Shore Stars. Travel ball can be a great experience for both your son and family if you find the right team. Good luck…
On this so called subject of BURNOUT, I’m not sure a agree with some of the posts but I do know this, if my son tells me he wants to hang it up at 16 it will be his decision, but I do know that the years he played travel ball gave him some great experiences that he would not have gotten if he played in a house league. Pitching a 5 inning no hitter at Cooperstown Dreams Park, playing in Omaha during the College World Series and this coming season playing at East Cobb in Georgia, you don’t get those opportunities playing in a rec. league.
Are there some bad apples in travel ball? Yes there are, but they are in every youth sport not just travel baseball and the good coaches out weigh the bad, And I have read posts on this same message board about High School coaches over using a pitcher, so it’s not just limited to travel baseball it is at the next level also.
Lldad96, do your homework, ask questions to the coach of the teams you might be interested in. Try to find parents that have left that team, ask them why. Find out how much they work out in the winter before the season starts, most travel teams start working out in January at local training facilities. Ask the coach how many games he plans on playing and what tournaments he has entered. If your son is 12, try to find a team that has a spot at Cooperstown next season, There is a team every summer that takes 2 teams and hold tryouts in April or May, they are the Chicago North Shore Stars. Travel ball can be a great experience for both your son and family if you find the right team. Good luck…
SDBB some good points.
Not all ball players have the desire,ability to play BB at a grueliing pace. There were times I used to ask my son if he was enjoying himself and he looked at me like I was crazy. I still ask him if he is happy with his college experience and tell him his descisions are his alone and we would support him what ever he wanted. He still looks at me like I am crazy.
Not all ball players have the desire,ability to play BB at a grueliing pace. There were times I used to ask my son if he was enjoying himself and he looked at me like I was crazy. I still ask him if he is happy with his college experience and tell him his descisions are his alone and we would support him what ever he wanted. He still looks at me like I am crazy.
LLdad96 - This is the link to the NIML League website. On the front page right sidebar you can view teams looking for players or add your own post.
Niml Website
Niml Website
SDBB, that was an outstanding response and I thank you for taking the time to answer those questions.
All of you thanks for the newfound perspective.
All of you thanks for the newfound perspective.
Soxnole, I know this is an whole other issue, but how does that help the community? The surrounding HS, etc.
Also, not sure if your facts are correct on all of your alums, seeing how I coached them.
Also, not sure if your facts are correct on all of your alums, seeing how I coached them.
Sox...Which players from OPRF were drafted in the 1st round in the last 6 years?
Playball....which players and what facts?
and....which ones did you coach?
Beenthere...None that I'm aware of.
and....which ones did you coach?
Beenthere...None that I'm aware of.
Soxnole: Again I agree with you. My son played for coach Matsie for a short period of time on the 'Shots. He really taught baseball.
I am a high school baseball coach in Illinois, and I do believe players can burnout. I experienced burnout as a player. I played high school baseball and travel ball and averaged 135 games a year from 13-16 years old. As a catcher, I caught virtually every game. I was never pressured by my parents or coaches to play in every game, but I did because I loved baseball and I didn't think about it. I got some great exposure and received plenty of interest to play at the next level, but I got to a point where I couldn't do it any longer. I decided not to play baseball my Senior year. I was a varsity starter as a sophomore and junior, and was an all-conference and all-area catcher both years. Because of my suicidal schedule though, I experienced burnout and stopped playing. I regretted my decision after graduating from high school (1997), but I also realized it was the only thing I could do at that time in my life. I enjoyed experiencing many other activities with a healthy balance, but I always missed baseball. It is my belied that people can experience burnout in many aspects of life including relationships, careers, and activities. This usually happens when there is little or no balance in one's life. I coach many players who play travel ball and have even helped coach at that level. One thing that I always do is encourage my players to participate in other things so that they do not get burnt out. An important thing for travel coaches to realize is the importance of practice. I never practiced when I was younger. My situational baseball improved a ton by playing all of those games, but my skills never reached their maximum potential due to the lack of practice.
Soxnole, for one Scott Hindman never turned down a million dollars to play at Princeton, not many kids drafted in the 42nd round by the cincinnati reds are often a million dollars.
P&C I can't agree. You say at that time in your life so does that mean you had other issues going on ? What team only uses 1 catcher. That is probably the most physically demanding position and there is no way that 1 catcher could perform half the work load on my son's elite teams.
For what ever reason you lost interest and if you loved baseball you would have given up the other interests. In my son's case he gave up everything but varsity basketball and elite baseball. He also worked and was a top student. While he played Basketball he continued to go to 3 winter workouts (3-4Hrs ea) all winter.
Success in BB requires a mental discipline that is the difference between those who stay in the sport and those who don't. Yes there can be other things that come into play that can alter your course but if you love the game you find a way.
For what ever reason you lost interest and if you loved baseball you would have given up the other interests. In my son's case he gave up everything but varsity basketball and elite baseball. He also worked and was a top student. While he played Basketball he continued to go to 3 winter workouts (3-4Hrs ea) all winter.
Success in BB requires a mental discipline that is the difference between those who stay in the sport and those who don't. Yes there can be other things that come into play that can alter your course but if you love the game you find a way.
quote:
Bobblehead did you really read P&C thread?
quote:I do believe players can burnout
Did you ?
Great discussion. My child played 12U ball this past summer and 14U ball in a fall league. She also played for her middle school team. In all, she played 106 games. Why? Because she begged to play. Did we practice? Just about anytime she wasn't playing. This meant that during the summer, she tried to hit 150 balls every day. Now, with school and basketball, she can't hit everyday and so, she wants to hit 200-250 when she gets the chance. Typically, this is 3 days a week. Why? Some on this thread make this seem as if this is work. It isn't. Naturally, the coaches of her 3 teams are all good people. She loves the coach of her main team which Just_Learnings daughter also plays on. However, she also loves being with her friends. It doesn't hurt that they did a lot of winning. She will be practicing with two teams after January. She will be going to showcases and college exposure camps. SHE IS THE ONE ASKING TO GO.
How does this then relate to high school. My girl wants to start on the varsity her freshman year. Is she good enough? I just don't know. However, it won't be from a lack of effort if she doesn't. Am I "THAT DAD" or as was mentioned a "RED FLAG DAD?" Yup in one regard, understand that she is not a machine. She won't win every time she takes the mound and she won't hit any 5 run home runs. In softball, I've never had to worry because the coaches she plays for know this and the coach for her main team has coached her since she was 7.
Will she burn out? She is now 13. Who knows! What I do know is that I've provided her with everything she needs for success including paying the teams dues, buying the best equipment and being there for almost all of her games. I too am a varsity head coach and so, I have missed one or two. I support her success in one other way. My (our) love for her is unconditional. If she didn't want to play tomorrow, we'd support that. JMHO!
How does this then relate to high school. My girl wants to start on the varsity her freshman year. Is she good enough? I just don't know. However, it won't be from a lack of effort if she doesn't. Am I "THAT DAD" or as was mentioned a "RED FLAG DAD?" Yup in one regard, understand that she is not a machine. She won't win every time she takes the mound and she won't hit any 5 run home runs. In softball, I've never had to worry because the coaches she plays for know this and the coach for her main team has coached her since she was 7.
Will she burn out? She is now 13. Who knows! What I do know is that I've provided her with everything she needs for success including paying the teams dues, buying the best equipment and being there for almost all of her games. I too am a varsity head coach and so, I have missed one or two. I support her success in one other way. My (our) love for her is unconditional. If she didn't want to play tomorrow, we'd support that. JMHO!
Bobblehead Doll...I was one of just 12 players on our traveling team and I did all of the catching (even doubleheaders). We had a back-up catcher, but he was our starting third baseman and he would only catch in an emergency. It does not matter to me if you agree or disagree with me. My post was about my personal situation and I have no reason to lie or mislead you. No other factors played into my decision other than I felt burnt out from too much baseball. I have never lost my passion for baseball. I do not understand why you are so adamant that burnout does not exist. It is interesting that you can speak of MY love for the game or indirectly refer to MY mental discipline without knowing who I am or what I am about. You should stick to writing about things you are sure about (you and your son) instead of those which you know nothing(me).
Yes bobblehead I did [QUOTE] For what ever reason you lost interest and if you loved baseball you would have given up the other interests. [QUOTE]
with a response like that please read the post again.
with a response like that please read the post again.