Two Pitchers+347 pitches=WOW

I was going to say wow, but you all ready did....
But..... Wow

"Attempts to reach Jesuit coach Joey Latino and Rummel coach Nick Monica went unreturned"...can't imagine why.

These guys should never coach another game! I don't care if those boys were throwing underhand...the average of 173 pitches each are almost criminal.

Begin Sarcasm:::::::

If you're going to throw 190+, you might as well win the game

End Sarcasm:::::::

All blame goes on the coaches, as you know that the kids said they "felt good", although I'd "like" to think that my kid might have better judgment (but that depends on the day).

Question, at what point would it be ok for a parent to go down and tell the coach to "take my kid out"? I know that we turn the kids over to the coaches, but there has to be some point (especially with 2 kids that have D1 offers), that you say enough is enough.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
I was going to say wow, but you all ready did....
But..... Wow

Wow isn't what comes to mind. Puking does. Anger does. Wanting to go on the field and forceably remove both of those morons does.

People who do things like these two idiots should be banned from the game, at a minimum suspended and required to get counseling on the dangers of doing such foolishness as have anyone, ANYONE, go this long.

I will say this from first hand experience. I've talked to more than a few college coaches about their recruits who are high school seniors over the years who've thrown too many pitches, and without exception the college coach is angry with the high school coach. Difference is, the high school coaches in question had their guy throw 125-140 pitches, not something as totally stupid as having a high school kid go 170+.

Also speaking from first hand experience, before I fully understood the dangers of overthrowing, I let my son's JV coach do a version of this to him. He was playing in a double header and he started the first game on the mound. Threw a 99 pitch 1-hitter. Second game, 30 minutes after the first one, he caught 7 innings. His arm was hanging for two weeks after that, and everyone realized that his coach (and his dad for not stopping it) had allowed things to go too far that day. Here's the punch line...
less than 2 years later his UCL let go and it was off to get Tommy John surgery. His surgeon told us that the tear that resulted in the surgery was the 2nd one he suffered to that ligament, as he had an old tear in a different area of the ligament, but it hadn't caused him any pain or impairment to his throwing.

Bottom line, DO NOT LET YOU KID THROW TOO MANY PITCHES. That number will vary from player to player, but common sense needs to be employed.

"We're seeing more of that type of injury now in high school than we do in the pros and college", from Doc Andrews, referring to the number of TJS he did in 3 weeks last year.

That's why when your pitcher has just thrown 80-90 pitches in a game, he shouldn't go to play 3B.

Sad that the players themselves did not feel that they could speak up. Seems like the desire to win some silly rivalry game took over. Both these young men need to put their needs above others at some pt. They have D1 scholarships and should have thought about being healthy for those teams too. At that point they had proven themselves and worked hard to get a D1 school interested.I tell my child above a certain number he has to tell the coach his arm is tired and he needs to come out, even if it's not. That gives him an out before I have to step in. Sad to say but some HS coaches suck and do not really care about the kids. They are more interested in wins and keeping their coaching jobs. Where are the AD's t these schools. The negative publicity will harm the school in the long run.

In the Dallas Fortworth area I have seen more than a few instances where pitcher has been over pitched and those pitchers are now having arm and shoulder problems. One kid in particular is a nationally highly touted 2013 who is not pitching now because of arm or shoulder issues. One coach in my son's district was so concerned about winning that he started a kid twice in the same week with three days rest. The kid is now not pitching because of arm soreness. All over winning high school game. Go figure.

lets not forget 8 warmups between innings, pre-game looseing up, pre-game bullpen and throws over to 1st base. The actual numbers for these kids could be closer to 200 pitches more.

Instead of worrying about gutting out one rivalry game with pitch counts, maybe the focus should be on the year long pitching these players are involved in instead of taking off a couple of months in the off season or take on another sport if they're good enough to play more than one port.

There's nothing worse than a HS player not pitching because he's got his mind on the college team which is a year away and his focus should be on his team. Otherwise, take out the prima-donna and put in someone that wants to play and who won't have a mom and dad running to the coach complaining when their little Jonny has to step up once in a while.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Two pitchers combine for 347 pitches in a game. Both are DI recruits and I'm sure their college coaches will love to read this!

http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1355247

Yea I am sure there college coaches would in shock, since we never see college coaches abuse their pitchers, lol.

I coached against both of these teams before moving to Tx; neither current HC was there at the time. However, we played one of the schools (Jesuit) for the 5A state title in 2007. The former HC's #1 threw a 7 inn CG in the quarter finals Friday evening; was up throwing in the bullpen during the 5th, 6th, and 7th innings of semi's Sat afternoon; came in relief in the 4th inning of championship game Saturday night. We lost 4-2. The state tourney MVP threw 194 pitches inside of 36 hrs. I believe he went on to pitch for 4 years at La. Tech.

I remember our #1 P (who also threw a shutout the day before the SC game) pleading to get back on the mound when the starter got in trouble. We said no (he is pitching at ULM now). The #2 P pleaded to get back on the mound also (he had thrown a 4 hit SO earlier in the day). We said no (he pitched 2 years at MS JUCO). I've often wondered how the outcome of the title game may have differed had either team made different bullpen management decisions. I still haven't figured out who was right.

quote:

Originally posted by oldmanmoses:
lets not forget 8 warmups between innings, pre-game looseing up, pre-game bullpen and throws over to 1st base. The actual numbers for these kids could be closer to 200 pitches more.

+1 here

quote:

Originally posted by jerseydad:
"Attempts to reach Jesuit coach Joey Latino and Rummel coach Nick Monica went unreturned"...can't imagine why.

These guys should never coach another game! I don't care if those boys were throwing underhand...the average of 173 pitches each are almost criminal.

FWIW...If these two pitchers are averaging 22+ pitches per inning over a 7 inning game. I'm not seeing many opportunities in the future at the next level.

dswann,

I get your point, but the two pitchers averaged 15 pitches over 10 innings, and 13 pitches over 15 innings. Sounds like both teams were district contenders, and you could imagine some hard fought at-bats with strikes fouled off.

I can understand a 17-18 year old pitcher going over 100 pitches in a game once or twice in a season (under the right circumstances, up to 110-120 spaced evenly over a game might not cause harm). But 154 pitches is crazy and 193 is almost criminal (for the HS coach that allowed it.)

Julie

Julie

Pitch count. Pitch count. It has to do with common sense. when I played High school and college and only up to the end of my tenure as a coach pitch count was never an issue. They have rules for the rules in little league through high school to address what is perceived as too many pitches. should there now be rules at the college level to satisfy those that feel that pitchers should be limited to pitches?

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
Instead of worrying about gutting out one rivalry game with pitch counts, maybe the focus should be on the year long pitching these players are involved in instead of taking off a couple of months in the off season or take on another sport if they're good enough to play more than one port.

There's nothing worse than a HS player not pitching because he's got his mind on the college team which is a year away and his focus should be on his team. Otherwise, take out the prima-donna and put in someone that wants to play and who won't have a mom and dad running to the coach complaining when their little Jonny has to step up once in a while.

Really? Who gives a hoot about winning a HS baseball game? Quick name the NJ State champ from 2008? If it took more than 3 seconds then you know how much these games matter....not one bit.

A kid pitching in college or beyond does matter and anyone including the player that abuse his arm need their heads examined and these two coaches look to be at the top of the list.

quote:

Originally posted by 2bagger:

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Two pitchers combine for 347 pitches in a game. Both are DI recruits and I'm sure their college coaches will love to read this!

http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1355247

Yea I am sure there college coaches would in shock, since we never see college coaches abuse their pitchers, lol.

Sarcasm is a poor substitute for information.

So far this year, the 300 D1 schools combined have let a pitcher throw more than 120 pitches just over 200 times.

In other words, the likelihood that any given D1 coach will let one of his pitchers throw 120 pitches in any given game is about 2%.

What's the likelihood that any given high school coach will? Much higher. In fact, nearly every member of this board can probably identify several local high school players who have been over-extended more than ANY college pitcher in the country.

I'm not saying elevated pitch counts never happen in college (look how many pitches Stanford's ace threw last Friday). However, as a group, college coaches are far more knowledgeable than high school coaches, and they are also a lot more careful with their pitchers, even though their pitchers are older, stronger, and better conditioned.

Might be this year swamp boy but have watched too many go too long over the years. I have also watched them catch for 7-9 innings and then throw the gear off and start pitching, I hope you are okay with that also.

I also have watched them pushed too soon after tj surgery but hey you have the info so run with it.

I realize that it happens in high school regularly and if you take a long look back I have brought it up many times mostly to be shot down on this very site.

Yes I know it happens more in high school, but if you think the colleges take great care of them your sadly mistaken.

Holy Moly Batman ! That is just crazy , as a parent who counts pitches , gotta believe I would have been screaming . No way any kid should be throwing that many pitches in any game , let alone a HS game .

quote:

Originally posted by golden rule:
In the Dallas Fortworth area I have seen more than a few instances where pitcher has been over pitched and those pitchers are now having arm and shoulder problems. One kid in particular is a nationally highly touted 2013 who is not pitching now because of arm or shoulder issues. One coach in my son's district was so concerned about winning that he started a kid twice in the same week with three days rest. The kid is now not pitching because of arm soreness. All over winning high school game. Go figure.

Don’t have to figure. I know the reason, and its built right into the Tx HS pitching limits in the rules.

A pitcher may pitch one game each day in an unlimited number of innings. If he pitches in
more than one game during a day, he will be limited to a total of ten innings each day.
http://www.uiltexas.org/files/...egularSeasonRegs.pdf

So no matter what anyone thinks, those coaches were not only well within the rules for that game, they could have done that 6 days in a row and still been within the rules!

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
Instead of worrying about gutting out one rivalry game with pitch counts, maybe the focus should be on the year long pitching these players are involved in instead of taking off a couple of months in the off season or take on another sport if they're good enough to play more than one port.

There's nothing worse than a HS player not pitching because he's got his mind on the college team which is a year away and his focus should be on his team. Otherwise, take out the prima-donna and put in someone that wants to play and who won't have a mom and dad running to the coach complaining when their little Jonny has to step up once in a while.

Really? Who gives a hoot about winning a HS baseball game? Quick name the NJ State champ from 2008? If it took more than 3 seconds then you know how much these games matter....not one bit.

A kid pitching in college or beyond does matter and anyone including the player that abuse his arm need their heads examined and these two coaches look to be at the top of the list.

With all due respect I give a hoot and I know several other posters on here do as well. I care about winning and putting a good product on the field in order to win a game. Can I name the NJ state champ in 2008? Heck no but I've also never been to NJ. But I also have no idea who won the state championship in NC last year where I live either. But it doesn't matter because those games didn't affect me - the games where my team plays do affect me. So winning a high school game does matter and is important.

I think zombywoof makes some valid points. It's getting to the point where you have more and more guys who have that goal to get to the next level so bad they don't want to perform at the current level because they want to "save themselves". That is a horrible attitude to have because you have no idea if you're going to even get to the next level so they need to play in the here and now.

All this being said it is beyond ridiculous that two pitchers combined for 347 pitches in one game. Even throwing 10 innings in one outing is usually too much (unless he has a ridicuously low pitch count) for a high school kid. What these two coaches did is unexcusable no matter what you're feelings are on pitch counts.

What I'm afraid of is in the neighborhood of what Will is talking about with rules and such. I can see in the future the NFHS coming up with a solid pitch count rule and you can't go over it similar to what Little League is doing. I'm sorry but that will be the worst thing you could do for baseball. The reason why I hate rules like this is because they play to the lowest common denominator in the name of safety. While I'm all in favor of being safe and not going overboard with a player's arm I will guarantee the number of pitches will be too low for most pitchers. This is where common sense should rule and a coach makes the right decision with a pitcher. Sadly as we see with this article we have coaches who lack common sense and therefore something needs to be done to protect their players. I think everyone on here would be in favor of that rightfully so. The problem is whatever rule you come up with it's probably going to be so restrictive that you don't allow pitchers to grow under correct guidance.

The sad thing is it's a no win situation for a coach. Even if you know what you're doing and you have the kid who can handle it someone will disagree with what you're doing. Then they tell others how wrong you are and since the hot topic is pitch counts the witch hunt is on. OR you don't have a clue what you're doing and run kids out there for 120 pitches.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Quick name the NJ State champ from 2008?

A kid pitching in college or beyond does matter

Quick, name the NCAA Div. II Champion from 2009? Who won the PCL in 2007? What about the Sally League in 2010?

Bet it took you more than 3 seconds. These are after HS so obviously they matter.


Should we start counting wins when they reach the bigs?

Your point is stupid. We should never put a win over a human-beings well-being at any level. I'm not for injuring kids, but I;m also not for saying winning HS games doesn't matter because some guy named "luvbaseball" won't remember the result.

quote:

Originally posted by 2bagger:
Might be this year swamp boy but have watched too many go too long over the years. I have also watched them catch for 7-9 innings and then throw the gear off and start pitching, I hope you are okay with that also.

I also have watched them pushed too soon after tj surgery but hey you have the info so run with it.

I realize that it happens in high school regularly and if you take a long look back I have brought it up many times mostly to be shot down on this very site.

Yes I know it happens more in high school, but if you think the colleges take great care of them your sadly mistaken.

You do realize that you didn't address my point at all, don't you?

I offered evidence to support my belief that over-pitching is more common in high school than college. I also acknowledged that it does happen in college, so you didn't advance the discussion when you suggested other ways unnamed coaches might have abused other pitchers at unspecified times in the past. (And why in the world did you think I would be okay with it?)

Nothing you said refutes anything I said.

BTW, I have followed the numbers: it's not a this-year-only phenomenon. Even factoring in a late season spike when college seasons are on the line, there's no contest. High school coaches as a group are much more likely to take the "if you have a thoroughbred, ride him hard" approach to their pitchers. It's not even close.

Before you reply, please pay attention to what I said. I didn't say any or all college coaches are perfect. I just said they are, as a group, more careful.

swampboy, oh boy you got me. I am not here to contest what you are saying, like I said there is abuse at all levels, more likely in high school yes there sure is no doubt about it. Abuse in college yes am I going to name payer and such no wil not do that.

Also like I said I have pointed out the high school abuse here many times,, but I guess you reserched all that.

As far as the way you talk down to people, go screw yourself.

Obviously those are very high pitch counts. I really don't understand coaches that would allow that to happen.

Still, we should realize that each individual pitcher might have a different limit. They're not all the same! It will be interesting to see what happens to these two pitchers in the future.

Here is something from an article written a year ago.

quote:

During last year's state playoffs a lot of eyebrows were raised in the scouting community over Dylan Bundy's 10 inning 181 pitch day that spanned two games. However, Bundy who became a YouTube sensation at 14 years old for his intense training regiment told the Tulsa World shortly after the playoffs "If I ever feel stress on my arm, I shut it down in a hurry. I'm not taking chances. I'll tell you right now, I'm coming out when I want to. I'm going to take care of my body." Bundy has shown no ill effects from the heavy workload nearly eleven months ago and has had only one pitch count exceed 85 this season (96 pitches on March 11).

The single pitcher who threw more pitches than anyone in modern history was a power pitcher. He struck out the most hitters and walked the most, too. He pitched in the Big Leagues 27 years, until he was 46 years old.

He has gone on record against pitch counts the way they are used today.

Most pitchers would not be able to handle that type of workload, but Nolan Ryan did! It just means that he was different than most pitchers. They're not all the same!

Well pg you sound kind of stuck in the middle on the subject.

Since it's very very dangerous to pitch this much, these 2 guys were surely carted off in an ambulance, right?

quote:

Originally posted by 2bagger:
swampboy, oh boy you got me. I am not here to contest what you are saying, like I said there is abuse at all levels, more likely in high school yes there sure is no doubt about it. Abuse in college yes am I going to name payer and such no wil not do that.

Also like I said I have pointed out the high school abuse here many times,, but I guess you reserched all that.

As far as the way you talk down to people, go screw yourself.

I accept your surrender.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:

quote:

Originally posted by 2bagger:
swampboy, oh boy you got me. I am not here to contest what you are saying, like I said there is abuse at all levels, more likely in high school yes there sure is no doubt about it. Abuse in college yes am I going to name payer and such no wil not do that.

Also like I said I have pointed out the high school abuse here many times,, but I guess you reserched all that.

As far as the way you talk down to people, go screw yourself.

I accept your surrender.

Never surrendered a thing in my life.

2bagger

Don't let it bother you. People from the south have been wanting to say that to us up here in the north since 1865.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
…What I'm afraid of is in the neighborhood of what Will is talking about with rules and such. I can see in the future the NFHS coming up with a solid pitch count rule and you can't go over it similar to what Little League is doing. I'm sorry but that will be the worst thing you could do for baseball. The reason why I hate rules like this is because they play to the lowest common denominator in the name of safety. While I'm all in favor of being safe and not going overboard with a player's arm I will guarantee the number of pitches will be too low for most pitchers. This is where common sense should rule and a coach makes the right decision with a pitcher. Sadly as we see with this article we have coaches who lack common sense and therefore something needs to be done to protect their players. I think everyone on here would be in favor of that rightfully so. The problem is whatever rule you come up with it's probably going to be so restrictive that you don't allow pitchers to grow under correct guidance. …

Well coach, I don’t know that it would be “the worst thing you could do for baseball”, but I can certainly understand how some people would think it would hurt the game. But really, if I could go back to just before LL put the rule in, I’d be seeing the exact same kind of fear mongering. People were screaming about how youth baseball would be destroyed, and in turn that would destroy baseball right up the ladder.

But, not only did LL Inc survive, now almost all organizations below the HS level have dropped IPs as the limiting factor and gone to pitch counts. And that was the basic issue. Limiting pitching by limiting innings was better than no limits at all, but not much. Like them or not, pitch counts are a far better limiting factor because they have a finite limit, unlike IPs. And you’re 100% correct, that no matter what the rule is, somebody out there ain’t gonna like it.

Here’s a question I always ask in these discussions, and so far no one’s been able to answer it very well at all. Assuming he’s conditioned well and able to throw 100+ pitches with no ill effects, just exactly what benefit does that player get from the pitches over say 80?

Here’s an example that happened just this past week. We’re playing a game and are going to the 7th, leading 5-2 and having retired the last 11 of the opponent batters in a row. Our pitcher, a Soph, had thrown 29,18,22,17,7, and 12 for a total of 105 pitches, and was obviously coasting. Meanwhile, we had several other kids who hadn’t gotten to throw much at all this season, but one particular kid was a Fr the coach brought up to give him only the 2nd lefty pitcher on the squad. Unfortunately, he’d only thrown 4 and 2/3rds innings in 3 weeks, and sorely needed to get some game time.

So who comes out to throw the 7th? We have 4 pitchers with 2.67, 4.67, 6, and 6. 67 IPs, and 3 with 33.33, 24.66, and 21.33. The 24.66 was pitching. What will the kid pitching get out of another inning, as opposed to what one of those other 4 would get? And keep in mind that the ace still has 9 outs he can pitch that week, the #2 5 outs, and none of the other 4 have thrown to a batter, so each could get 10 outs if necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Quick name the NJ State champ from 2008?

A kid pitching in college or beyond does matter

Quick, name the NCAA Div. II Champion from 2009? Who won the PCL in 2007? What about the Sally League in 2010?

Bet it took you more than 3 seconds. These are after HS so obviously they matter.


Should we start counting wins when they reach the bigs?

Your point is stupid. We should never put a win over a human-beings well-being at any level. I'm not for injuring kids, but I;m also not for saying winning HS games doesn't matter because some guy named "luvbaseball" won't remember the result.

If your point is that any of those games matter...you are right they don't. Ask the New York Yankees how many championships the AAA team has won and noone cares. I was going to add the 2008 World Series winner to my orignal post and I'll bet 75% of people can't name them without looking it up. The point is how important can anything be that noone will remember no matter how it seems at the moment? I do luvbaseball but winning a baseball game proves absolutely nothing and has virtually no value to players in the real world and everyone needs to buy a clue on this.

Getting to college and getting a degree without adding thousands of dollars in personal debt is a huge upside to the two players in question. To ask them to be worried about anything else is an incredible presumption on the part of anyone.

BTW for more perspective how many people from High School do you think you will still be talking to 10 years latter. For most people it is a handful or less. So if you blow out your arm trying to win the big ball game for the leftfielder who will become an accountant should you be expecting a chunk of his action? If the answer is no then noone should expect the kid with the golden arm to give a hoot about them on the baseball diamond when his future is on the line.

If taking care of yourself and knowing what truly matters is is stupid then I will admit that maybe it is time for me to quit my job, join an OWS sit in, and let all you smart people take care of me with an unemployment check. ***, drugs and Rock & Roll!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 2bagger:

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:

quote:

Originally posted by 2bagger:
swampboy, oh boy you got me. I am not here to contest what you are saying, like I said there is abuse at all levels, more likely in high school yes there sure is no doubt about it. Abuse in college yes am I going to name payer and such no wil not do that.

Also like I said I have pointed out the high school abuse here many times,, but I guess you reserched all that.

As far as the way you talk down to people, go screw yourself.

I accept your surrender.

Never surrendered a thing in my life.

It was over when you were reduced to sputtering personal invective.

Further expressions of your impotent rage will just be the twitchings of a stomped lizard.

swampboy, oh never mind not worth the effort, as long as you win in your mind have at it.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
2bagger

Don't let it bother you. People from the south have been wanting to say that to us up here in the north since 1865.

1865? What happened in 1865? None of my grandparents arrived in this country until 1910. Was 1865 the last time a northern team won the CWS?

Oh, and please tell me your nickname was earned on the baseball diamond. I do not want to contemplate the alternative.

quote:

Well pg you sound kind of stuck in the middle on the subject.

2bagger,

Not really, I'm more on the side of caution. I do know that there is a limit and 150-200 pitch counts are ridiculous and very dangerous for most human beings.

I'm more against universal pitch counts for everyone. If pitchers are not all the same, why should pitch counts be the same. The well conditioned guy might throw 100 pitches easily. The lesser conditioned guy might not get past 50 pitches. Mechanics, strength, conditioning, arm action, natural ability, types of pitches, etc., etc., all play a part. They're not all the same!

That said, I understand the value of universal pitch counts as a safety factor. However, that pitch count could still be dangerous to some pitchers.

Also I think recovery might be a bigger issue than pitch counts. What happens and how long between the last game pitch and the next game pitch is very important. Yes, playing another position needs to be monitored closely.

Seems like baseball seems to be the only sport that restricts play. Maybe a quarterback will only be allowed to throw so many passes or if he is sacked more than x amount he is out of the game. Or a running back can only gain so many yards or be tackled so many times. How about a basketball player can only play so many minutes straight before being subbed for. sorry for the sarcasm but it seems that what is happening is for whatever reason people feel that common sense has to be legislated.

quote:

posted by swampboy
1865? What happened in 1865? None of my grandparents arrived in this country until 1910. Was 1865 the last time a northern team won the CWS?

Oh, and please tell me your nickname was earned on the baseball diamond. I do not want to contemplate the alternative.

Lighten up Francis, it was a joke. But I will agree with 2bagger, go screw yourself.

Lighten up Francis

Two sophisticated midwesterners put their heads together and all they can come with is, "Go screw yourself"? Twice!

That's it? That's all either of you guys has to say?

I tell you what. I'll give you a little lesson in bantering. When you make a joke and someone turns it around on you, you have two options. You can either say "Touche" or you can add yet another clever twist to turn it back on him. That's how it works.

Saying, "Go screw yourself" isn't a civilized option.

But saying, "Go screw yourself" while telling the other guy to lighten up is even worse. It just makes totally no sense at all, you see, because it reveals a decided lack of lightness in your own mood.

I really am sorry you and your 2bagsfull buddy are too stupid to know how bad you're losing.

You remind me of how Cool Hand Luke kept getting up every time Dragline knocked him down, kept trying to throw punches, and never came close to landing one.

"Stay down, Luke! Stay down!"

Good advice for you, too.