U11 Curveballs

That is really a shame! I am against players under 14 throwing curveballs.

I think it is out of the norm in most cases at this age. A good fastball combined with a good change up should be all a pitcher needs at this level. Most of these kids are probably really throwing a slider, which I have read is even worse for arms that have not matured.

these coaches should be banned from baseball ... and where are the parents? Letting their kids possibly injure their arms for a plastic trophy

Are you sure it is a true curve ball? There is a pitch that is being taught that resembles a curve that is called a U-change. Even though I am not a proponent of it, it is an effective pitch and acts much like a curve without the torque on the elbow. If it is a true curve then it is a shame that someone would put a kid in position to ruin his arm at such a young age. Coaches need to realize that winng at 11 is not what it should be about. Developing the fundamentals and competing should be the foundation of an 11 year old.

At the LL level holding the fastball in varied positions can make it do different things BUT the key at LL is to learn control,location and poise on the mound


There is no need for any other pitch than a fastball with control

I can only speak for here in Florida, but there are some pretty amazing 11:U's pitchers. And yes, they throw curveballs, sliders, knuckle curves, knuckle balls! I'm not a Dr. (nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express) so I won't comment on the effect on the arm, but I will tell you the comp teams are very very serious about their baseball...even at the 11:U level. It is no place for the faint hearted because these kids and coaches teach like it's high school. Also, I will say this, for the most part, the Coaches are pretty good. These aren't Little League coaches trying to relive their glory years. These are (for the most part) professional coaches and they know the game and how to develop the players.

What does that mean for the 11u arm? Let the debate begin.....

Most of the kids looked to be throwing real gosh honest pull it CB's and in most cases didn't have much of a FB. FWIW, the coaches of these teams seemed to be writing the "how not to" manual. Really lighting into the players for each and every mis-step, over-the-top cheering, contesting any remotely close call. It really wasn't hard to see who these games were most important to...

What a shame! No Holiday Inn Express!!??
Don't get around much eh?
Overhand fastballs put so much stress on the elbow and shoulder, is there some way kids could play without throwing overhand until they're fully mature?

They could play softball

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Most of the kids looked to be throwing real gosh honest pull it CB's and in most cases didn't have much of a FB. FWIW, the coaches of these teams seemed to be writing the "how not to" manual. Really lighting into the players for each and every mis-step, over-the-top cheering, contesting any remotely close call. It really wasn't hard to see who these games were most important to...

While I wholeheartedly agree with yankee (and I've seen plenty of youth coaches exactly like these) there are also parents who are complicit in this mentality. I've had 12 year old kids whose dads thought I was the reincarnation of Hitler when I discouraged curves in favor of working on a changeup. It was obvious that these parents spent a bunch of time teaching their kid how to throw curves and even sliders at the expense of developing a good fastball and change. One kid really stands out, pre-season his dad talked up what a phenomenal pitcher the kid is, and that he threw a curve, slider, knuckle curve, splitter, and cut-fastball. Yeah, the kid threw all of those, but his mechanics were so horrible he could rarely find the strike zone.

Not a fair comment IB, you know we stayed at the Holiday Inn Express I suppose upstate NY is just "behind the curve" (pun intended) Congrats to your boy, sounds like he had a nice weekend. It was very nice of you to stop by, sorry the weather/umpires didn't allow us to return the favor.

Yankeelvr,

Many people would consider my team to be an "elite" travel team (CDP finalist as 10U and no lower than 9th at any AAU National event). We can compete with anyone in the country. We made it through 12U without throwing breaking balls and throw a limited amount at 13U on the big field.

Most people get so caught up in winning that they fail to see the big picture. Our kids have worked on CU's since they were 9. Every time they warmed up for a game or practice, they had to throw 10 CUs after they were loose. I taught them to throw a CB but told them I would break their arm if they threw it without me there.

Teams throw curves at young ages because they discover that it helps them win. If winning is what you're after, by all means, put your son's arm at risk and let 'er rip.

When your kid is 15, though, no one will care who he beat when he was 11. Just thought you'd like to know.

People WILL care if he developed his fastball's velocity and command. And they will care if he stayed healthy or if he has a history of arm trouble.

You'll see a bunch of curves at the Little League World Series this August, just like every year. For most of those kids, that's the peak of their baseball careers, so I can't begrudge them trying to win it all when they have their one shot at glory.

But if you're not one of those handful of kids, and you're just playing your standard travel tourneys, what are you doing it for? If it's for development of your son's talent for the future, then throwing all those curves right now is destroying the future you claim to be trying to build.

I can't tell you how many bragging dads I used to hear talking about their stud son and all his K's when the boy was 11, who now wonder why he can't throw 80 in high school. The coach is a jerk, he doesn't appreciate him, it's all politics, yada yada yada. Lots of excuses, no accountability.

If you're serious about a future in baseball, prohibit your son from throwing curves until he's at least 14, and insist that he be removed from games if you catch him doing it anyway.

HERE IS A WARNING FOR PARENTS OF YOUNG PITCHERS:
I will tell you from first hand experience. P1s kid (P.5 Version 2) He has pitched since he was 6. He was used at least twice a week during his 13U and 14U years, mainly because of his unhittable curveball. When he got to HS his freshman year he blew his elbow out, broke off the growth plate in his elbow. After surgery , a year off and painful rehab he is back to 100%. His plate is now bolted together so there is zero risk of that happening again so he might be 110% now. According to his DR the growth plate injury is very common but people ignore it. That pain they get on the inside of thier elbow is not normal, dont let those coaches tell you to ice it and he will be fine. Our DR said if a kid (17 or younger) pitches more than 75 pitches in a week it is too much and they are risking severe damage. He also says kids shouldn't even throw a curveball until college age. Dont let those coaches out there ruin your kids arms for 11U baseball. None of that even counts until they reach High School.

A former teammate of my son finally injured his arm. After throwing CBs since 9-10 yo. He did so in his 3rd year of college. Rehab only. His dad was the coach of one of my son's teams and he like my son was a junk ball pitcher. His doctor and my son's doctor got him an MRI and he needed rehab only. Took all of last year off after throwing only a couple innings. No cummulative damage, no wearing down of parts . solid shoulder etc.
Injuries happen and it is not the end of the world for most pitchers. All these stories had me almost getting a hanky out. Knock on wood my son is at the hight of his game. His only complaint is he is not getting enough innings. If he gets injured he will do what all injured pitchers do. Work his butt off to get back on the mound.

BH Doll- don't get out the hanky for the P1 son (P.5 Ver 2) He is back up to full speed throwing low to mid 80s and still has 3 years oh high school ball left. He is a lucky kid, it could have finished him off as far as baseball goes.

That is my point. Doc_k is also back up to steam. I know a few pitchers that have TJ surgury and they are all doing well.
Where I have a problem is that everyone is blaming the CB. Most of the guys I know who have had arm injury are catchers and FB pitchers who threw 85+ at 14 -15 yo. Not many are still pitching anymore.

Most of P .5's injury wasn't the curve ball. It was pitching way to many innings per week. I blame myself for letting it happen. I am hoping to get thru to the parents out there so they learn from my mistake.

quote:

Most of the guys I know who have had arm injury are catchers and FB pitchers

Exactly! My kid is a catcher and did not pitch. I felt sorry for those 11 year old kids that were pitching 100-120 pitches per game not realizing my kid was throwing more than they were. In 12/06, he threw down to 2nd to end a practice and...pop. He torn his ulnar tendon (I guess its called LL elbow). I just didn't think about how much catcher's throw but I do now and I treat my kids arm like a pitchers.

P.S. The story ends well. After being in a cast for 4 weeks and taking another 4 weeks to loosen it up and get strength back, he is as good as new. In fact, his arm is even stronger because he started arm excercises as part of rehab which he never did before.

Redbird,
A U10 CDP finalist qualifies as an elite team in my book for sure. I understand and agree with your philosophy. I really was simply curious if in fact this was what is going on as we normally play plenty of ball locally and only travel three or four times a year. The U10 level had just a few kids who would show the CB (read, use it properly) just to put a little doubt in the hitters mind. CDP is included in our experience. We went three deep into the tourney so while not an elite group we can play a bit. If in fact this is the way the younger kids are headed we will simply need to prepare our hitters a little differently, guarendarnteed no change in our pitching instruction. All respect to Bobble, I am sure there are "safe" ways to throw the LLCB, but I have seen enough baseball to know these tykes weren't throwing a spike. And I do agree if you do not want to risk an arm injury have your child play another sport. God didn't make us to play baseball but I'm pretty sure he appreciates the effort.

quote:

Originally posted by Lesterclan:
I can only speak for here in Florida, but there are some pretty amazing 11:U's pitchers. And yes, they throw curveballs, sliders, knuckle curves, knuckle balls! I'm not a Dr. (nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express) so I won't comment on the effect on the arm, but I will tell you the comp teams are very very serious about their baseball...even at the 11:U level. It is no place for the faint hearted because these kids and coaches teach like it's high school. Also, I will say this, for the most part, the Coaches are pretty good. These aren't Little League coaches trying to relive their glory years. These are (for the most part) professional coaches and they know the game and how to develop the players.

What does that mean for the 11u arm? Let the debate begin.....

Not quite sure how this makes them GOOD? They win? At U11? With young arms throwing what, 6 different pitches? Come on. Professional coaches? Are they getting paid? Lord, I hope not. If they are that serious about winning at that age with no reguard for their players futures they are exactly "Little League coaches trying to relive their glory years."

Taking the best players in the league, putting them on one team, and then having a win at all costs philosophy does not make you a professional coach in that age group.

quote:

Not quite sure how this makes them GOOD? They win? At U11? With young arms throwing what, 6 different pitches? Come on. Professional coaches? Are they getting paid?

1. I guess that's the debate. Some think there is nothing wrong with teaching 11u's CB while others think its criminal. You decide.

2. Yes, a lot of the coaches are paid. Obviously not all of them, but a lot. There are a lot of teams coming from baseball training facilities, etc.

That's just the way it is in Florida (for the most part). At the higher levels, most of the kids don't even know what Little League is (I'm not kidding). Additionally, what I meant by "good" coaches is coaches that know the game of baseball, run great practices, hitting, fielding, etc. And some of those that don't see a problem with CB at 11 and some do. Of course some do have a "win at all cost" attitude and some do not. They want to develop kids and winning is a by product. They just believe there is no problem with a kid that young throwing a curve.

I don't agree, but that's the way it is. Again, let the debate begin...

My son plays on a 11u team in Dallas we play in alot of tournaments and see lots of curveballs we are lucky our coach played in the minors and knows what kind of damage it can do. Our kids hit there spots and throw a changeup.Our coach tells the kids remimber you don't need to throw a curve to win. but you do need to be able to hit it.

My years in Florida have taught me that the Win-at-all-cost coaches are everywhere. They are the ones who sacrifice development and the health of a player for Wins. Then there are the real experienced coaches who would never sacrifice development for wins, they will prepare the players properly, and teach them to grow with the game. They too will win, but its because they are prepared and not because they are possessed.

quote:

Our kids hit there spots and throw a changeup.Our coach tells the kids remimber you don't need to throw a curve to win. but you do need to be able to hit it.

That is spot-on. I think too many coaches worry that they have to throw them as well, when the best way to beat a curve ball is to learn how to recognize them. Then the hitters know how to lay off of them or to drill them in the gaps if a fat one is left up in the zone.

quote:

Then the hitters know how to lay off of them or to drill them in the gaps if a fat one is left up in the zone

Sounds like it's pretty easy or wishful thinking.

Yep, a piece of cake.

Seriously... yes, kids can be taught how to recognize the CB when it is coming. Will all kids get it? No, but the better players do learn pretty well. I see plenty of CBs in our area, but I don't see many 12 years olds that disguise it so well that it is nearly impossible to pick up a different arm motion, or hand movement on release of the ball, etc.

When they at least learn how to recognize it, then the coaches can work on when to swing or not swing at them. For example, a 11/12 year old should not swing at 0-0, 1-0, 2-0, 2-1 CBs, unless he is very good at hitting them and the pitcher leaves a fat one up in the zone.

My point is that you beat the CB by hitting the CB.

quote:

so well that it is nearly impossible to pick up a different arm motion, or hand movement on release of the ball, etc.

The good CB has the same arm motion. I don't know the level of ball you are talking about but a good offspeed pitch mixed well is almost impossible to hit especially if it is thrown for stikes..

I am talking 11/12 Little League and Select. I have seen a ton of select ball / All Starts in the Houston area, and I have only seen a couple kids that throw curve balls that make me think "holy smokes". I am talking about the 95% of those that don't make me think that. It is those kids that I am talking about.

I understand that High School is a whole new ball game.

I was thinking 11-12 yos. I have seen some very impressive pitchers at that age.

Maybe we have different levels of "impression".

Our LL doesn't allow CBs at all until All-Stars. Unfortunately, VERY few kids throw a change up w/o slowing their whole body down, giving it away.

If I might play the proud dad on Father's Day for a moment ... my 12YO son - who doesn't throw very hard (5'0, 110 lbs), pitched a complete game win today, making heavy use of his changeup. He understands that throwing it w/ the same motion is plenty slow enough to get the desired result (swing/miss or weak hit). He knows WHEN to throw it and HOW. And he's pitched several 4-6 inning outings this year vs. the best teams in our league and he's kept some of the best hitting teams in the league off-balance.

"Good pitchers upset hitters' timing."

I thought that the main problem with CB's was that the kids were throwing them incorrectly. As long as the Coach has taught them the correct way to throw it (which usually isn't the case), a kid could throw it at any age right?

Yakyu kid...I'd rather be safe than sorry. My son is 12 and his mechanics change like the wind. He may be solid for a couple of innings and then off track the next. I am sure most other pre-teens are the same way. I have preached to him that he only has one right arm and that he needs to take care of it. To many times people think the easy way out is TJ Surgery. I do not think I'd want to go through it. At a young age, kids bodies are still developing, changing everyday and their growth plates are still an issue. You hear different arguments on this subject but bottom line is, you have to decide what is best for the development of the kid. Is being the best 11 year old as important as being able to pitch in high school and hopefully beyond. As was stated in this post earlier..."no one will remember who you beat when you were 11."

I am 14 and my dad won't let me throw one yet. I have never had shoulder problems or elbow problems. I am strongly for not learnig a curveball until at LEAST 13. Alot of people can get away with it but I would play it safe. Barry Zito is a prime example of someone who threw his cuveball when he was very young, but he has always been healthy. He was lucky that he learned to throw it right when he was young. Make sure your son throws it correctly when he learns it.