UVA and VT early commits?

quote:

Still waiting for examples of 2011 ACC-caliber Virginia players whom VT ignored because they're in-staters. Can you back it up?

I'm not sure it would be a good idea to post any names. I'd hate to see a kid get picked apart about whether he is or is not ACC worthy. I'm sure that is not your intention, but it could happen.

According to PG's rankings, of the top 10 2011 VA players, none are going to any Virginia colleges.

2 are going to East Carolina, 2 are going to South Carolina, 2 are going to Marshall, and 1 each to UNC-Charlotte, LSU and Michigan. 1 is not committed for what I suspect might be academic reasons, given that this player is new to the United States and that always puts a kid behind the 8 ball academically.

In the 2012 class, there are 4 listed early commitments, 2 to UVA and 1 each to ECU and UNC (Chapel Hill).

There is another factor at work here that bears mentioning. [Note: Prior comment here deleted, to remove apparently erronneous information.] At Clemson (and I think also at So. Car., but correct me if I'm wrong), any out-of-state student (athlete or not) gets the in-state rate if they were in the top 10% of their high school classes or something like that.

Because SC subsidize their universities more than we do here in VA, the fact is that these schools can make themselves more affordable to our players than our own VA schools can. Put another way, our VA colleges would have to offer a higher % to a player to get his bottom line to a comparable figure.

These are factors beyond the baseball coaches' control. Sure, they pitch their schools and brag that each is better than anything SC could offer, and I tend to agree, but you can't argue with the fact that for some families, a few thousand dollars per year here and there adds up to a big impact on the family finances.

That being said, the sudden interest in Marshall has caught me by surprise. My parents both went there -- met there in fact -- so I owe my very existence to that place. But I don't recall ever seeing it as a popular baseball destination for a VA player until this year.

Marshall was very aggressive recruiting in Virginia this summer.

And if you look down PG's list of top 2011 Virginia players, you will find #12 John McGillicuddy. Yes, Joe's brother. Both are committed to Marshall, increasing Marshall's haul of the top 12 2011 Virginia players to 3 (or 25%). Not bad for the Thundering Herd!

Any information on the other states? Looking at the (public) ACC schools, 90% of Georgia Tech's 2011 class is in state, FSU - 81%, NC State - 72%, UNC - 66%, MD - 66%, Clemson - 44%, UVA - 25% and VT - 0% (rounding down). No, that is not a slam against UVA or VT, just an observation.

Georgia and Florida also offer tremendous incentives for solid students to attend state universities. One has Bright Futures and the other has Hope Scholarships, I forget which is which. But between those financial considerations and the ready availability of oodles of well developed baseball talent in those states, you can see where UF, FSU, UGA and GT would have little reason to look out of state except to land the exceptional recruit here and there.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:

There is another factor at work here that bears mentioning. At least for the time being, and pending action by the NC state legislature, any student receiving partial athletic scholarship money from an NC state-supported university gets the in-state tuition rate.

Midlo, Please provide the support for your assertion above. Having not heard that policy from any North Carolina baseball coach with whom I had spoken in the past (and I would think that would have been something a coach would tout), I searched the North Carolina code. I could find no support for the statement. I also emailed a coach at one of the North Carolina D1 programs on the subject. His response, in part, "NC nonresident athletes on any scholarship are considered out of state and are
paying out of state tuition. There was a law in place for the past 4 years that if an athlete, from out of state, was on a full scholarship, the budget of the institution would only be charged in state tuition. This law was removed last year. . . . If there is a rule that we can roll them to in-state, I would love to be able to do that for our guys."

For what it's worth (not sure if the rules are the same for all sports) my niece, VA resident, was offered a scholarship to play volleyball at UNC-Wilmington. My understanding is that UNCW could only offer her scholarship money up to the in-state rate.

quote:

Originally posted by golfball:


I'm not sure it would be a good idea to post any names. I'd hate to see a kid get picked apart about whether he is or is not ACC worthy. I'm sure that is not your intention, but it could happen.

Golfball,
You're right. I certainly do not want this to degrade into a discussion of which individual players are ACC worthy. My point was that if ACC-worthy players are being systematically ignored by VT, other ACC or elite conference schools would swoop in to take advantage of the market inefficiency, and we'd be hearing stories about kids landing at those schools after failing to get their calls returned by UVA and VT. That's just not happening.

As far as El Gato's stats, I'm not sure what he thinks they prove. They basically reflect the fact that players generally play in their home state or somewhere south of their home state. Well, duh. And since so many of Virginia's best travel teams spend so much time in the Carolinas, Georgia, and Florida, it's not surprising that many of their best players attend schools in those states. Whatever the stats show, they certainly do not show that VT and UVA don't want the best Virginia players.

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rs attend schools in those states. Whatever the stats show, they certainly do not show that VT and UVA don't want the best Virginia players.

The discussion excludes UVA - they do recurit actively in VA. I and others can attest to to it as can Golf.

I think Golfball is spot-on about ACC recruits vs. non. No need to get into a who is who isn't.

WB, that aspect is actually something that was reported here multiple times before, so I have relied upon those reports.

I actually previously inquired as to whether it was just internal budgeting -- i.e., a way to make the football and basketball teams appear less expensive on paper -- and was assured not. In fact I think the published debates on the bill in the legislature indicated that, in the current tight budget times, one of the objections to the current law was that it essentially used NC taxpayer money to benefit non-NC students.

Perhaps someone here who has a son active on a typical partial ride at an NC school can clarify.

I'll also ask someone else I know who should be able to set me straight. If I've been misinformed on this, I do want to get it right -- as opposed to contributing to the spread of the erronneous info.

Midlo, I am sure that the D1 coach who provided an email response, and who is and has been coaching at one of the UNC's for almost 10 years, will be very interested if you provide a supported answer contrary to his.

The info I had gotten was from parents of players who'd been through the process. But I'll admit they were families that ultimately chose other options. So it's also possible that the rule has changed in recent years.

I'm checking now to see how some kids who've committed recently have had their deals set up. Not going to get into anyone's personal business, just to see whether their net bill will be based on the in-state or out-of-state rate.

I do take your input seriously and I definitely want to make sure I've got it right. If I find out the above comments were wrong I'll do a mea culpa here.

The information I have received from coaches is very similar to that of WB.

Coach May you have a PM

Found this with a Google search:

Session 2009-2010 Legislative Changes- University System and Community Colleges

Athletic Scholarships – G.S. 116-143.6(a) has been amended (S.L. 2010-31, Sec. 9.25) to repeal eligibility for out-of-state students on full athletic scholarships to be classified as in-state for tuition purposes.

Apparently the repeal went through last winter when I wasn't looking. I had heard of the effort to repeal but had not heard of that bill going through. Though an interesting point is that this note refers only to those on full rides. If this implies that the rule never applied to those on partial rides, then I'm afraid I've spent a few years misinformed.

More info:

http://www.ehow.com/list_71817..._state-athletes.html

Apparently the law changed in late June. But as best I can tell, the law previously only applied to athletes on full rides (without being limited by sport). As we all know, true full rides are very, very rare in baseball. So to the extent we've had information on this board before suggesting that partial ride players would also benefit, as best I can tell at this point that was in error. It appears that the main point of the prior law was to help the schools' athletic programs fund raising arms by having the state budget underwrite the differences in tuition rates, whereas now the athletics boosters will have to come up wtih the extra money themselves. That is, it was a back-door subsidy to the booster groups.

The former law referenced "full scholarships," but one thing is I cannot find a definition to see if that meant all expenses, or just tuition and fees but not room and board. If it referred to just the tuition and fees part, that's the only way I could see that maybe some on this board had heard of or experienced benefit from the prior law.

I would appreciate any parent of an out-of-state NC player chiming in with personal experience, just to clear up the history. Because some of the articles I've read indicate that the change in the law was viewed as burdensome to the student-athletes. If the law only applied to true full rides in the first place, then I don't see how the players or their families would've known the difference between getting their education funded by the state of NC or by the booster groups. A zero bill looks the same either way.

But whatever the law used to be, one thing's for sure, it ain't there no more. And if any families were benefiting from it before, they got a jolt in this year's net bills that came due in August.

My NC coaching source had aslo stated in his email response to my inquiry: "That law saved our athletic department in the neighborhood of $250,000 per year. We, as a baseball program, did not have any of our athletes on a full scholarship and we did not participate in any way with the tuition waiver. We did see benefits from the athletic department saving money in our s****r, volleyball, and basketball programs." Interesting that he did not mention football where the scholarships would be full. Perhaps the accounting savings for football was not shared with the other sports.

I would think that by no longer having an accounting subsidy for the out-of-state players, the NC resident athletes should look more attractive to the NC state supported institutions.

Tim Kelly, 2012 RHP/OF at York HS, verbals to VT.

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Originally posted by redbird5:
Tim Kelly, 2012 RHP/OF at York HS, verbals to VT.

Good News!

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Tim Kelly, 2012 RHP/OF at York HS, verbals to VT.

redbird,

Are you sure about that? Because I thought VT didn't recruit in Virginia...

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Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Tim Kelly, 2012 RHP/OF at York HS, verbals to VT.

redbird,

Are you sure about that? Because I thought VT didn't recruit in Virginia...

Apparently they found 1 kid out of the hundreds that are eligible in VA.

I will say, that this one of the first times I have heard of that Tech got a jump on a recruit. Maybe they read HSBBW.
good for Tech- glad they are coming around.

Of the top 20 kids in the 2012 class in VA, VT has recruited 10 that I know of. I do not have direct knowlege of the other 10.

You guys need to understand something...Coach Hughes' staff made their mark at BC recruiting from certain areas. Regardless of your beliefs, they are not going to waltz into VA and simply start picking up the top kids in the state. They have to prove they can win and have the facilities to match. They are getting there.

At BC, they had relationships with HS and summer programs in certain areas that fed them solid players. They are making great inroads with the same in VA. This does not occur overnight.

I think we all know Hughes has a fondness for the NE. He is here now. Time to adjust and look around. Perhaps get off campus now and then. If not VA players need not attend the $300 camps with hopes of getting notice.

That said, I am glad to hear the staff has actively sought after 2012 VA players. I hope they continue to do so.

Last year was his 4th year. I'd say that is pretty good progress.

quote:

Of the top 20 kids in the 2012 class in VA, VT has recruited 10 that I know o

That is unbelievable....did VT recruit 10 from 2011????

I am not going to get into the debate of whether or not VT recruits in Virginia...of course they do (off the top of my head, they got a great pick up in Chad Pinder last year and Joe Mantiply the year before), but everyone needs to stop making excuses for the staff not having a larger presence in VA recruiting circles. They may not get every top recruit out there, but they sure ought to attend and have a high profile at most if not all top events in the state. That may be happening, but based on the number of posts to the contrary, there is room for improvement.

Let's face it, this is VIRGINIA TECH we're talking about. As I said before, they have the most alumni and largest fan base in the state. Not having "connections" in VA just doesn't cut it. I don't care if it's some guy you've never heard of, if he's representing the Hokies, just about any recruit in VA is going to take an interest. Most kids can't name the baseball coach at more than a couple of schools in the entire country anyway. The name recognition in baseball is with the school and VT certainly has that...couple that with the ACC affiliation and their attitude should be (as it is with football) that they take a backseat to no one in the state. They may be second fiddle to the 'Hoos right now, but that certainly shouldn't show in their recruiting philosophy.

justakid,

I mention 10 of the top 20 2012 kids in VA to show that the information other are providing is inaccurate (with 2012's at least). These are kids I know personally. They also went after most of the Top 20 VA kids. Now, I feel they may not have evaluated some of them properly but they were definitely "on" most of them.

Chris Taylor,

I can tell you that VT is at every major event in the country. Their assistants are there. As a matter of fact, they were the only ACC school at the USA NTIS event in Cary last year, except for Duke, UNC, and Wake (but it was in their back yard). They are out there.

To all,
I don't recall seeing 1 head coach at the WWB Underclass event in Fort Myers this fall so to expect Hughes to be there is crazy - that is what he has assistants for.

Chris and Redbird, I guess it depends on your definition of recruiting. Most of us are not aware of the level of "recruiting" of in state players unless we have a child or player being recruited or are a member of the player's family or school's staff. With that said, actual offers and acceptances (i.e., commitment) are the real measure of success. In the 2011 class, ECU, Marshall and South Carolina "outrecruited" VT and UVA. The 2012 class may be different, but 2011 was a flop.

Either that or UVA and VT did not have the same needs as Marshall...or they didn't like the players Marshall recruited.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
To all,
I don't recall seeing 1 head coach at the WWB Underclass event in Fort Myers this fall so to expect Hughes to be there is crazy - that is what he has assistants for.

Maybe they were at other games. In 2009, at either or both Jupiter or Fort Myers events, I saw at least 3 head coaches - Leoni, Godwin and Tanner. In fact, I have seen Tanner at many, many showcases and events away from USC. Maybe having involvement from the man at the top in the recruiting process off campus helps build a World Series caliber team.

quote:

Originally posted by WB Reporter:
Maybe they were at other games.

They could have been at other games, but I attended many other games as well.

Leoni may have been there. Tanner and Godwin sent assistants. They are recruiting some of our kids and have been at other events but not RSW.

Gentlemen your debate about instate recruiting is one that has been discussed over and over again by parents in other states as well as VA. You all bring up very valid points, however I don’t think any coach would ever deliberately overlook players within their own state.

I believe the recruiting process at VT is no different then it is at any other school, they recruit for their positional needs. If the coaches have the opportunity to see a player (whether from their home state or from another state) and identify him as a potential player the recruiting process begins. Please don’t get me wrong I do not intend to criticize the baseball talent in VA but there is a lot of baseball talent through out this country so why would any coach limit himself to recruiting to one region. In the state of Illinois only ten of the top twenty-five players from the 2010 class are attending Illinois schools and those ten are divided into only four of the Illinois Universities.

My son a 2010 recruit from Illinois is a current player at VT who never participated in any of the Hokie camps and his summer team did not play in VA. I can personally tell you that each of the coaches Hughes, Turgeon, and Gambino were in attendance at showcases or travel games held outside VA. during the recruiting / evaluation process.

Of the thirty-three players listed on this year’s roster there are 10 players from VA. I know that one of the freshman pitchers was recognized after attending one of their camps, sorry but I do not know if any other players on the team were recognized after attending their camps.

Is it possible that UVA has been able to recruit so many instate players due to their success and accomplishments achieved on the baseball field? Either way Coach Hughes has turned the VT baseball program around in four short years and hopefully their recent success will carry over the next several years and will attract more players from the state of VA

Thanks for your time; I enjoy reading your opinions.

BH, don't know about your situation, but it should be easier and less costly for VT and UVA to recruit in state players. They are the largest schools in Virginia with attractive academics and athletics, but, for whatever reason, they passed on the 2011 class. Of the 17 top rated players listed by PG, only two are going in state. My math tells me that is about 11.7%. Of the top 12 rated players, none are going in state. When you consider how good and varied the 2011 class is, those results are really surprising.

With their top six commits (per PG), VT got a third baseman from WI, an outfielder from CT, a left handed pitcher from NY, an outfielder from FL, a first baseman from NJ and a right handed pitcher from IN. With their top six commits, UVA took an outfielder from PA, a left handed pitcher from GA, an outfielder from PA, an infielder from MD, a right handed pitcher from MA and an infielder from VA (Kenny Towns). All of those positions were available in the top ten or twelve players in Virginia (per PG), but not a one is going in state. VT's top recruit is listed by PG at 276. In UVA's defense, their first three commits are very, very good, Derek Fisher (OF) ranked 17 in the country, Kevin Matthews (LHP) at 31 and Mike Papi (OF) at 85.

As to UVA, I think El Gato just made the most important point. They are at a point where they are getting their pick of the litter of PA/OH/NY/NJ. That is McMullens' territory and he owns it. That area is certainly not the baseball talent pool GA or FL or even VA is, but there are outstanding players there and zero elite college programs. There are a handful of kids from this zone every year who are nationally elite and UVA (and UNC) are always in the mix for them. Its not like UVA is passing on in-state kids to sign players of questionable talent from other parts of the country.

They also usually get the vast majority of Virginia kids who they want and who THEY CAN GET IN SCHOOL. An exception from the 2011 class might be a kid like Jake Cave who Im sure UVA would love to have but who is headed to LSU. I'd venture a guess that Cave's draft prospects had something to do with this as well as UVA tends to stear clear of recruiting kids who are likely to be drafted ultra-high.

VT is doing a heck of a job on the field and I think Redbird hit the nail on the head; it takes some time for that to translate into recruiting success in a state like VA with several quality D1 options for in-state players and plenty of talent to go around.

vabaseballfan, Fisher (#17 in the counrty), Matthews (#31) and Papi (#85) may have similar problems, i.e., pro teams interested in their talents.

As far as getting into UVA, that should be no problem. Most of the players have gpa's between 3.0 and 4.0, and, if the school can admit 85 football players, it can admit a few baseball players with similar gpa's.

Baseball has been granted more leeway in recent years at UVA as far as who they can get in school but they still cant come close to football.

I suspect all three players you've listed will get drafted but all three will end up in Charlottesville. Kline was a 6th rd pick and Hultzen went in the 10th even after telling everyone there was zero chance he'd sign. They dont stay away from kids talented enough to be drafted, they stay away from kids who they perceive as wanting to sign. Of course I could be wrong about Papi, Fisher, and Matthews but since O'Connor hasnt lost many to the draft I doubt it.

UVA has lost a couple to the draft over the years but they tend to stay away from guys who have a good chance of going pro. I know they lost one recruit this yr a LHP who went in the 3rd rd to Toronto-Nicolino. They have lost two more I can think of- an OF to the Red Sox who made the show this yr as a 22yr old Ryan Kalish, and a catcher who is flying up the ranks with the Reds Devin Mesoraco(sp?)-1st rd pick in 07. I am sure there are one or two more but for the most part O'Connor has done a great job of avoiding casulties to the draft

I stand corrected. You are right. Thanks for adding.

It is precisely because of having gotten burned that UVA is so very careful.

There have been cases of them committing early to kids they considered "finds" only to have them zoom up the ranks and end up in draft consideration. Kalish was one of those, as was the Hissey boy in 2008. Hultzen was another, but fortunately for UVA he and his family were determined that he go to school first.

When you look at UNC, you can see what happens when you just sign kids without considering the draft risk. They went a few years in a row with their top 6 recruits all signing pro. The result was that in 2010 they didn't make the ACC tourney field. They'd've been a different team with Porcello, Bumgardner, Knapp, Melville and Miller added to the pitching staff, to say nothing of the non-pitchers they also had get away.

The real problem is, you lock up a big share of your 11.7 scholarship budget on these guys and then you find out just weeks before school starts that they ain't coming. At that point everyone else you might've wanted is signed elsewhere and it's a mad scramble to put your money back in play so that it's working for you. And it's hard to find players at that late date and on that short of notice who can cut the mustard at UVA both baseball wise and academically.

UVA is really very good at what I call the "Beautiful Mind" approach to recruiting. Go for top talent, but not the VERY top guys who are likely to be offered 500k or more out of high school. They end up with the best of those who don't sign pro. Even with this approach, they've lost some guys here and there, but not so many as to leave their overall program short of talent.

The other place where they deserve credit is, they are very up front about their philosophy. If, e.g., Jake Cave did express interest, I can well imagine that he was told very plainly that UVA might not pursue him and why. I don't know Cave's situation personally, but he fits the profile of others who have come before and been told politely but clearly that a UVA offer will not come their way despite their considerable and acknowledged talents.

In the end, the programs will do what works best for them. I know some might wish they would look closer to home more often, but when UVA is atop all the national rankings and VT is suddenly showing up in the top 20 as well, I wouldn't expect any sea changes in their approaches any time soon. Winning comes first, don't kid yourselves.

quote:

UVA is really very good at what I call the "Beautiful Mind" approach to recruiting. Go for top talent, but not the VERY top guys who are likely to be offered 500k or more out of high school. They end up with the best of those who don't sign pro.

Excellent post and analysis Midlo.