Varsity High School Team - 22 players

ironhorse posted:

Chicago643 posted:

If you already have all the answers as a coach, why are you posing questions like “what do you want to hear in a parent meeting?” You apparently already know w what is best for everyone. Assuming to are between 24-30, don’t have kids and feel pretty cocky that you may have played college ball at some level and now have the opportunity to “develop” citizens....newsflash, nobody is paying you to develop well rounded people, Ironhorse.

You literally guessed wrong on every aspect of my life above. That's fun. 

And I asked the question because I know I don't have all the answers. I've never sat on the other side as a parent and was interested in trying to learn more about that perspective. I've been doing this a while now, but I don't want to stop learning how to do things better. I think I improved our parent meeting this year, so I'm proud of that.

And they may not be paying me to "develop well rounded people" in your eyes, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try. I'm pretty proud of the way we develop quality citizens, but a guy like you will never get that, so why waste my time?

Your inability to accept the opposing viewpoint without being defensive and condescending show a level of narcissism that is pretty unattractive. You aren’t willing to hear a contrarian viewpoint, you just want to live in an echo chamber of your own thoughts. 

I don't want to hear a contrarian viewpoint says the guy who questioned why I was asking for the input of other people. 

And I hate that you find me unattractive. I thought we may have something.

cabbagedad posted:

Just as Ironhorse said this about putting together rosters...

"Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions."

... much of the same applies to in-game substitutions and PT.  We usually have a pretty strong schedule so not to many blowouts.  When we do, sometimes there can be a fine line between having a four or five run lead with your #3 pitcher and all of a sudden run ruling a team and having the game called short.  Often, at various points in the game, things could have gone either way.  If you pull the plug on starters early and it backfires on you, that's about the worst move you can make.  People see a final score that implies a comfortable win and wonder why more guys didn't get in.  They don't necessarily know how the game unfolded and what could have happened along the way. 

For many of us, those multiple sub opportunities don't come that often.   When they do come up, one could certainly argue that the program is better off giving those opportunities to the young players that will be contributors in the future and need game experience than to a senior who you know won't be.  Still, there is sentimental pull.

Just a few of the MANY layers...

I see that point, but as a father of a kid that always got to play, I still believe there are opportunities to get those bottom of the roster kids some PT.  HS is probably 30 games a year, so logic says there are some opportunities.  (Blow Outs either way)

Coach_May posted:

If it was just about the innings played it would only be worth it to 10 or 12 guys right? Would it even be worth it if your team was not very good? If this whole thing is about how much you play why would you have more than 11 or 12 players ever?

Why do coaches invest in players that will never contribute on the field in games or play meaningful innings? Why do coaches spend hours upon hours working with kids that will more than likely never contribute? Why not just work with the one's that you see potential in?

Why would anyone ever want their kid to be on a team when they were not going to be a starter and or get playing time? What a waste of time.

Could it be that the baseball is only a fraction of what is important? Could it be the baseball is used to teach things much more important than a game? Could it be that the baseball gets them together but something else keeps them together, for life? Could it be the baseball is important now but pales in comparison to what is learned through the game? Will anyone care what your batting average was or wasn't 20 years from now? Will it matter if you learned how to be on time, what true commitment is, the value of team work, discipline, sacrifice?

You want to know what my former players talk about when they get together? They rarely talk about the games won, the big hit, the great play, who were the studs. They talk about that time Jimmy ate 4 Whopper's after a game. They talk about the time they had to run for playing around at the cage and how they almost passed out. They talk about the bus rides, the talk about the investment it took to be on the team, they talk about the pride in being a part of something bigger than them. No one cares what your batting average was. No one cares how many innings you played. Do you value one child over the other because one has more talent? Do you value one sibling over the other because one had more talent?

Why do I keep players that will rarely contribute or never contribute? Why do I want to keep more kids than I actually need to round out a team? Because I want as many kids as possible to experience the experience. I want as many kids as possible to get things much more important than baseball. It doesn't hurt my feelings that kids won't get to start or experience being good players. It hurts my feelings to know they won't be part of something they can carry with them long after the baseball has ended.

The most important thing about playing on a team is not what goes on during the 2 or 3 hours of a game. The most important thing about playing on a team is being on a team. The most important things your son will learn from playing on a team will never show up in a box score. If it was just about who could play and who couldn't play it wouldn't be worth what I invest. It's much more important and valuable than that.

Honest open communication. Teaching young men it's bigger than you. It's not about me its about we. If you have to be a starter or a major contributor to realize the value to being a member of a team then you have no team. You have a group of individuals calling themselves a team. If every member of the team understands their role and works to bring value and expand that role for the good of the whole you have a team. 

As a parent what do I value the most from my son's athletic experience? Is it the accomplishments on the field? Is it the awards and trophies? Is it the notoriety they gained? Or is it those things that helped them become the men they are today? The things that they learned through the game, the struggles, tough times, life lessons, perseverance, team work, dedication, determination, work ethic, grinditthefout never give up trust in yourself toughness, respect for those guys that lay it on the line just like you, fight for it, life isn't fair but that's ok, keep on grinding, pick him up, pick yourself up, treat others the way you would want to be treated, humility, sacrifice, it's bigger than you, be that guy, don't be that guy, if it was easy everyone would do it, your feelings are not fact's deal with the truth, excuses never solved a problem, on and on it goes. All of that can be learned and much more even if you never get off the bench in a game.

Sometimes the greatest experience you can give someone is viewed by others as a total failure. Tell them to stop reading the box scores and just watch my life.

I agree with all of the above, and that is why I believe it shouldn't matter if the bottom of the line-up gets a bone every now and then.  Telling a kid that he will never see the field is wrong IMHO.  If he's on the team, a part of the team, contributing a good attitude to the team, etc., he should be rewarded with an opportunity.  Frankly, if everything you said above is true, and the importance is the team, then it should be ok for some to sacrifice a little PT for the less talented players.

ironhorse posted:

I don't want to hear a contrarian viewpoint says the guy who questioned why I was asking for the input of other people. 

And I hate that you find me unattractive. I thought we may have something.

"... you just want to live in an echo chamber of your own thoughts."

Is that anyway related to a glass case of emotion...? 

Truer than you know Bolts Coach

Coach_May posted:

If it was just about the innings played it would only be worth it to 10 or 12 guys right? Would it even be worth it if your team was not very good? If this whole thing is about how much you play why would you have more than 11 or 12 players ever?

Why do coaches invest in players that will never contribute on the field in games or play meaningful innings? Why do coaches spend hours upon hours working with kids that will more than likely never contribute? Why not just work with the one's that you see potential in?

Why would anyone ever want their kid to be on a team when they were not going to be a starter and or get playing time? What a waste of time.

Could it be that the baseball is only a fraction of what is important? Could it be the baseball is used to teach things much more important than a game? Could it be that the baseball gets them together but something else keeps them together, for life? Could it be the baseball is important now but pales in comparison to what is learned through the game? Will anyone care what your batting average was or wasn't 20 years from now? Will it matter if you learned how to be on time, what true commitment is, the value of team work, discipline, sacrifice?

You want to know what my former players talk about when they get together? They rarely talk about the games won, the big hit, the great play, who were the studs. They talk about that time Jimmy ate 4 Whopper's after a game. They talk about the time they had to run for playing around at the cage and how they almost passed out. They talk about the bus rides, the talk about the investment it took to be on the team, they talk about the pride in being a part of something bigger than them. No one cares what your batting average was. No one cares how many innings you played. Do you value one child over the other because one has more talent? Do you value one sibling over the other because one had more talent?

Why do I keep players that will rarely contribute or never contribute? Why do I want to keep more kids than I actually need to round out a team? Because I want as many kids as possible to experience the experience. I want as many kids as possible to get things much more important than baseball. It doesn't hurt my feelings that kids won't get to start or experience being good players. It hurts my feelings to know they won't be part of something they can carry with them long after the baseball has ended.

The most important thing about playing on a team is not what goes on during the 2 or 3 hours of a game. The most important thing about playing on a team is being on a team. The most important things your son will learn from playing on a team will never show up in a box score. If it was just about who could play and who couldn't play it wouldn't be worth what I invest. It's much more important and valuable than that.

Honest open communication. Teaching young men it's bigger than you. It's not about me its about we. If you have to be a starter or a major contributor to realize the value to being a member of a team then you have no team. You have a group of individuals calling themselves a team. If every member of the team understands their role and works to bring value and expand that role for the good of the whole you have a team. 

As a parent what do I value the most from my son's athletic experience? Is it the accomplishments on the field? Is it the awards and trophies? Is it the notoriety they gained? Or is it those things that helped them become the men they are today? The things that they learned through the game, the struggles, tough times, life lessons, perseverance, team work, dedication, determination, work ethic, grinditthefout never give up trust in yourself toughness, respect for those guys that lay it on the line just like you, fight for it, life isn't fair but that's ok, keep on grinding, pick him up, pick yourself up, treat others the way you would want to be treated, humility, sacrifice, it's bigger than you, be that guy, don't be that guy, if it was easy everyone would do it, your feelings are not fact's deal with the truth, excuses never solved a problem, on and on it goes. All of that can be learned and much more even if you never get off the bench in a game.

Sometimes the greatest experience you can give someone is viewed by others as a total failure. Tell them to stop reading the box scores and just watch my life.

Great post Coach May; 100% agree. 

I was never a great baseball player (really a football player doing a mediocre catcher impression), but I played for a couple of legendary coaches who were truly leaders of men.  I would not trade the life lessons I picked up from them (and the game) for anything.  This was particularly valuable given I lost my dad at a very young age.

My experience, as well as all of the things you mention about hard work, accountability and camaraderie are why I have pushed my boys to play in HS.  Any accolades or play beyond HS is gravy. 

I think there are valid arguments on both sides of the coin.  So unless you are the coach, what does it matter to you?  I never understand why bystanders can get so upset about these type of scenarios.  

IRONHORSE 4 CHICAGO643 0

Chicago, if you get runners on, station to station, play for the big inning.

Chicago643 posted:

ironhorse posted:

Chicago643 posted:

ironhorse posted:

I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.

 

If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose. 

It all depends on perspective. 

Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.

So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.

I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.

Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.

It depends on the program.  Winning programs will attract more kids to be part of something.  Loosing programs, well the work just isn't worth it. 

I do not think it can come down to strictly numbers. It comes down to the coach, the program and the players involved. Some programs and coaches can handle Large numbers. They communicate well and everyone knows there role. Now can a players role change? I believe yes. We had a young man in my sons class. He got little playing time during Freshman, Sophomore or Junior year. The coach had talked to the player after his junior year and explained what he could expect his senior year if he did not meet certain goals. The young man came back his senior year. He did not meet all those goals, but he met most of them and was much improved. During cuts, he explained that he would be a PO, and get an inning or two depending on how things were going and how the rest of the bull pen preformed. One of those innings came early in the year, and he came out to pitch and had changed his delivery and was pitching side arm. Did he have a lot of velocity no, He was around the strike zone but not always in it. But he was very tough to hit. While the rest of the bull pen struggled he was relied on more an more. He turned out to be one of our better pitchers out of the Bull pen that year, and racked up quite a few innings. Was this a great team, no. It was a very young team with few seniors. But the coach did not dismiss him because the talent was not there, he never gave up on the kid, and he preformed very well. I talk to his parents often, we are still friends. His parents still talk about how much that season meant to their son and to them. 

Did other seniors get this opportunity? No, Some of them came improved but not enough, and one that actually had some talent, was still cut, because his attitude and the example he set for younger members of the team. 

Each young man needs to be taken on a case to case basis. You cannot and should not treat each one exactly the same. You need to asses and judge what is best for the young man, the other young men on the team and take appropriate action. Just because you keep one senior does not mean you need to keep them all. One of these seniors had lots to offer off the field and in the dug out, and practice. The other did not. 

Chicago643 posted:

 

 

If you already have all the answers as a coach, why are you posing questions like “what do you want to hear in a parent meeting?” You apparently already know w what is best for everyone. Assuming to are between 24-30, don’t have kids and feel pretty cocky that you may have played college ball at some level and now have the opportunity to “develop” citizens....newsflash, nobody is paying you to develop well rounded people, Ironhorse.

Actually, if he is a high school teacher/coach that is exactly what they are paying him for. 

ironhorse posted:

I don't want to hear a contrarian viewpoint says the guy who questioned why I was asking for the input of other people. 

And I hate that you find me unattractive. I thought we may have something.

Thank you there buddy for a big bite of my lunch ending up on my lap. Hahahaha. I appreciate it. 

If/when my kid is cut next week I promise I will not come on here and complain.

My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine.  There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit.  The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start.  I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone.  I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy.  I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech.  All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down.  I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash.  I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year.  I decided to make this year school first.  We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year.  The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs.  If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.  

I think we have 27 on varsity .  18 seniors which is the old coaches fault.  No guarantees of playing time though

11 sr's  10 jr's  16 soph's  15 freshman.....  two jv teams and varsity....  gotta fund raise..... all about the money

V = 22 (6 PO's), JV = 20 (3 PO's), no 9th grade team.  We have 13 seniors graduating.  The big roster in my opinion is for:

1. We play 3 games a week, we need to have enough pitching and enough to account for the flu/bad grades/in school trouble and is benched/and general injury.

2. With 13 kids graduating do you really do a total rebuild next year or do you have an extra 9 players that can learn the ropes of Varsity while only playing in blow outs?

3. 12th grade mentors 10th grade, 11th grade mentors 9th grade....this is how you build a TEAM. 

hsbaseball101 posted:

My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine.  There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit.  The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start.  I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone.  I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy.  I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech.  All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down.  I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash.  I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year.  I decided to make this year school first.  We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year.  The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs.  If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.  

Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.

Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.

Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team?  You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....

It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.

PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.

Back when my son played Varsity, the roster was never more than 15 total with three pitchers of which one was a PO.  Fortunately they were limited to a 20 game regular season (VHSL rules) and at most played three games per week - most of the time it was two games per week.

The JV roster was about the same size.   No ninth grade team (unheard of around here).

In addition: I know I will probably get some push back here but that is fine & I welcome the debate.

We talk about the "student athlete." I understand that. I get the motive & I follow the logic. But let me ask you this. If Johnny goes 4/4 with 2 Dingers does Mr. Johnson who teaches his Civics class give a rip ? Does it raise his GPA? In fact, it has ZERO relation to his Civics class or any other class for that matter.  

From the perspective of the baseball coach, there are 2 kinds of players. Those who are eligible to play & those who are not. This is the Baseball Team. Not Glee Club, Honor Roll or the Academic All Conference Team. Your players may make those squads, great. That is not your mission although you can certainly encourage it & should. However, the truth is that some of these guys are not going to go to college & this is their last shot to play. They meet the eligibility guidelines & should be then evaluated as players.

If not, where does it end? Do you then take into account grades, community service, parent snack bar participation, fundraising?? 

When I was in school, we had to turn in weekly progress reports to our coaching staff.  The coaches prospective was that you represent your team in the classroom.  Negative teacher remarks earned you time on the bench.  I don't have a problem with this as long as the coaches communicate it clearly.  If you met the minimum GPA 2.0 you qualified.  It was about effort and attitude in the classroom.  Turn your work in and respect the teacher and fellow students.  If you can't do that don't bother playing "extracurricular" sports..  

We have advised our players to send in extra work and special reports relating to baseball. History, Civics, Engineering, Social Psychology all have a relationship with baseball.

My extra credit paper will titled "The Interactionary Behavior of Professional Baseball Players".

Bob

Steve A. posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine.  There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit.  The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start.  I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone.  I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy.  I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech.  All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down.  I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash.  I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year.  I decided to make this year school first.  We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year.  The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs.  If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.  

Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.

Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.

Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team?  You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....

It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.

PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.

The NFHS that certifies HS coaches requests that we be more like mentors to students than simply athletic coaches.  

hsbaseball101 posted:

Steve A. posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine.  There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit.  The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start.  I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone.  I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy.  I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech.  All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down.  I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash.  I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year.  I decided to make this year school first.  We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year.  The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs.  If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.  

Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.

Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.

Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team?  You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....

It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.

PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.

The NFHS that certifies HS coaches requests that we be more like mentors to students than simply athletic coaches.  

Then be a mentor and understand that not all brains are created equal.  Johnny might not study but gets 85-95% on his tests because he got what the teacher was saying. Timmy listens in class and studies for hours and gets a 74%.  

I wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until college, it doesn't mean I wasn't trying in school. My coaches didn't penalize me. Kids have IEP's to assist them, you going to take those into account?  How about the 30-40% of baseball players that take ADHD meds....just forget that they space out through no fault of their own?

Being a mentor doesn't mean you reward kids who have better developed brains, heck they probably need less building up than the kid who is honestly struggling to make it through high school. You want to get reports from teachers on who is trying and who is asleep in class, go for it, but please rethink your plan of best grades play.  School is not cut and dry for MANY kids.

CaCO3Girl posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

Steve A. posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine.  There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit.  The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start.  I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone.  I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy.  I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech.  All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down.  I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash.  I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year.  I decided to make this year school first.  We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year.  The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs.  If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.  

Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.

Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.

Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team?  You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....

It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.

PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.

The NFHS that certifies HS coaches requests that we be more like mentors to students than simply athletic coaches.  

Then be a mentor and understand that not all brains are created equal.  Johnny might not study but gets 85-95% on his tests because he got what the teacher was saying. Timmy listens in class and studies for hours and gets a 74%.  

I wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until college, it doesn't mean I wasn't trying in school. My coaches didn't penalize me. Kids have IEP's to assist them, you going to take those into account?  How about the 30-40% of baseball players that take ADHD meds....just forget that they space out through no fault of their own?

Being a mentor doesn't mean you reward kids who have better developed brains, heck they probably need less building up than the kid who is honestly struggling to make it through high school. You want to get reports from teachers on who is trying and who is asleep in class, go for it, but please rethink your plan of best grades play.  School is not cut and dry for MANY kids.

All situations are different.  I have one kid who going by his grades is #2 on the list for subbing in, but he's actually my best player.  However he's an EL student who's trying to take regular classes this year and it's starting to become difficult.  I'm likely going to start him at the position he's got the best grades in, but it's not his first preferred position.  The guys with the worst grades unfortunately are the hardest working in practice, but they're also the weakest in skill.  I want to start them over others due to their work ethic, but I have to tell them to skip practice and go to after school tutoring instead.  

Can't tell if you are being serious or not. 

If you are, please do not start players based on a ranking of their grades.  

That might be the craziest thing I've ever heard.  As long as they are eligible, play the best players.  It is okay to punish if you get reports they are skipping class or being disrespectful, etc.,..

But to rank who starts and plays by grades is a disaster waiting to happen and really makes no sense.  

I liked the example provided before.  A teacher doesn't take into account baseball stats when grading a test, so why are you evaluating students academic skill when giving out playing time? 

Don't ruin kids careers or their high school experience for some experiment that you think in some way makes sense. 

Pipes2 posted:

Can't tell if you are being serious or not. 

 

If you are, please do not start players based on a ranking of their grades.  

That might be the craziest thing I've ever heard.  As long as they are eligible, play the best players.  It is okay to punish if you get reports they are skipping class or being disrespectful, etc.,..

But to rank who starts and plays by grades is a disaster waiting to happen and really makes no sense.  

I liked the example provided before.  A teacher doesn't take into account baseball stats when grading a test, so why are you evaluating students academic skill when giving out playing time? 

Don't ruin kids careers or their high school experience for some experiment that you think in some way makes sense. 

I understand that as a player first, student second that can be frustrating.  You could try to the best of your ability and still not succeed academically.  Sports could be all you want out of school.  If I had a kid who absolutely loved baseball I'd take that into consideration. 

Does the track team put the 4 fastest in the relay or does Jimmy get the anchor because he got an A in Chemistry?

Does the 6'8" kid who is a beast get minutes on the court or Billy (5'2") plays center because he has a 4.15 GPA?

Is Johnny the QB for the football team because he aced Spanish 4 or does Michael Vick play QB?

For some reason, baseball is different & part of the reason is because to the average person, without a ton of experience or knowledge, deciding who rates as a player above another is not as readily apparent. It is more difficult to justify decisions on playing time to Mom & Dad so therefore all kinds of absurdity takes the place of logic when determining playing time. Such as using grades to decide who gets innings.   

101 we have had some good exchanges.  I say this to help, not to pile on.  IMO, I think you are taking some of the NFHS stuff too literally.  I, too, lean heavily on the side of being more than a baseball coach, being a mentor, being a teacher of life lessons, etc.  But we have to always realize that we are baseball coaches first.  Most schools will provide reasonable parameters regarding grade requirements, attendance, behavior, etc., for a player to remain eligible.  Additionally, I'm all for requiring community involvement, having high standards for playing the right way, demanding that we are good teammates, etc.  It is fine to raise that bar if you think it is necessary.  But when it comes to between the lines and in the dugout, we need to make baseball mostly about baseball. 

It is also important, IMO, that at the HS age, kids start figuring out that they not only have to have the best work ethic but they have to have the best talent and ability to earn those starting spots.  Another key aspect to running a successful baseball program that the boys will take pride in, year in and year out, is to be competitive.  Regardless of W-L record, the boys will know you are not being truly competitive if you are playing guys based on grades and work ethic over talent.  You gotta roll out your best 9.  Otherwise, it's just another class.  That is the last thing the student athlete is looking for when he signs up for a sport.

Chicago643 posted:

ironhorse posted:

Chicago643 posted:

ironhorse posted:

I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.

 

If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose. 

It all depends on perspective. 

Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.

So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.

I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.

Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.

Literally the worst post I have ever seen on this site, and I've been on it since my son was in 9th grade and he just finished his 4th year of pro ball after playing 4 years of D1 ball in college.

I was a bench warmer in HS.  I worked my butt off and was thrilled to make the team, proud to wear my HS team hat around town.  I didn't even go out for the team til my senior year, we moved to a new town and the school was brand new, only 159 seniors in the school.  I never got in a game, tore my cartilage rounding third in a scrimmage.  I still showed up every practice, chased foul balls on crutches, did whatever I could.  Some of my best HS memories were being on that team.   Being a bench warmer never came into my mind, I was a member of the team and excited and proud to be so.  I never felt then or today I was being "strung along".

As a parent I would never make a decision for my child about making the team.  It sounds more like you are the type of parent that feels it's more important for your son to make it so you will feel good.  I'd never say to my son "you're not going to be a starter, so you might as well quit.  There's nothing "inhumane" about making a team and not starting.  In my son's school only 22 out of 2000 students make the team, quite an accomplishment in itself.

And your last two sentences shows to me you don't have a clue.

hsbaseball101 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

Steve A. posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine.  There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit.  The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start.  I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone.  I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy.  I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech.  All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down.  I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash.  I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year.  I decided to make this year school first.  We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year.  The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs.  If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.  

Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.

Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.

Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team?  You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....

It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.

PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.

The NFHS that certifies HS coaches requests that we be more like mentors to students than simply athletic coaches.  

Then be a mentor and understand that not all brains are created equal.  Johnny might not study but gets 85-95% on his tests because he got what the teacher was saying. Timmy listens in class and studies for hours and gets a 74%.  

I wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until college, it doesn't mean I wasn't trying in school. My coaches didn't penalize me. Kids have IEP's to assist them, you going to take those into account?  How about the 30-40% of baseball players that take ADHD meds....just forget that they space out through no fault of their own?

Being a mentor doesn't mean you reward kids who have better developed brains, heck they probably need less building up than the kid who is honestly struggling to make it through high school. You want to get reports from teachers on who is trying and who is asleep in class, go for it, but please rethink your plan of best grades play.  School is not cut and dry for MANY kids.

All situations are different.  I have one kid who going by his grades is #2 on the list for subbing in, but he's actually my best player.  However he's an EL student who's trying to take regular classes this year and it's starting to become difficult.  I'm likely going to start him at the position he's got the best grades in, but it's not his first preferred position.  The guys with the worst grades unfortunately are the hardest working in practice, but they're also the weakest in skill.  I want to start them over others due to their work ethic, but I have to tell them to skip practice and go to after school tutoring instead.  

Any chance of running a study hall after practice.  Many times all a kid needs is a quite place and some discipline to get his work done. 

Steve A. posted:

Does the track team put the 4 fastest in the relay or does Jimmy get the anchor because he got an A in Chemistry?

Does the 6'8" kid who is a beast get minutes on the court or Billy (5'2") plays center because he has a 4.15 GPA?

Is Johnny the QB for the football team because he aced Spanish 4 or does Michael Vick play QB?

For some reason, baseball is different & part of the reason is because to the average person, without a ton of experience or knowledge, deciding who rates as a player above another is not as readily apparent. It is more difficult to justify decisions on playing time to Mom & Dad so therefore all kinds of absurdity takes the place of logic when determining playing time. Such as using grades to decide who gets innings.   

Basketball is an interesting comparison.  Everyone gets to play because they never have huge rosters. The worst players might get ¹-2 minutes total, but they seem to really appreciate being out there and have no inflated view of their ability when it's apparent to everyone.  In fact, the fans will ask the coach to get those guys off the floor.  Baseball is different for some reason.  

cabbagedad posted:

101 we have had some good exchanges.  I say this to help, not to pile on.  IMO, I think you are taking some of the NFHS stuff too literally.  I, too, lean heavily on the side of being more than a baseball coach, being a mentor, being a teacher of life lessons, etc.  But we have to always realize that we are baseball coaches first.  Most schools will provide reasonable parameters regarding grade requirements, attendance, behavior, etc., for a player to remain eligible.  Additionally, I'm all for requiring community involvement, having high standards for playing the right way, demanding that we are good teammates, etc.  It is fine to raise that bar if you think it is necessary.  But when it comes to between the lines and in the dugout, we need to make baseball mostly about baseball. 

It is also important, IMO, that at the HS age, kids start figuring out that they not only have to have the best work ethic but they have to have the best talent and ability to earn those starting spots.  Another key aspect to running a successful baseball program that the boys will take pride in, year in and year out, is to be competitive.  Regardless of W-L record, the boys will know you are not being truly competitive if you are playing guys based on grades and work ethic over talent.  You gotta roll out your best 9.  Otherwise, it's just another class.  That is the last thing the student athlete is looking for when he signs up for a sport.

 

What if you're getting run ruled every game even with the best 9?  The guys on the bench wouldn't understand.  They don't get that the kid who can't hit can at least make a throw from lf to 1b while you can't make a throw from 2b to 1b.  

hsbaseball101 posted:

cabbagedad posted:

101 we have had some good exchanges.  I say this to help, not to pile on.  IMO, I think you are taking some of the NFHS stuff too literally.  I, too, lean heavily on the side of being more than a baseball coach, being a mentor, being a teacher of life lessons, etc.  But we have to always realize that we are baseball coaches first.  Most schools will provide reasonable parameters regarding grade requirements, attendance, behavior, etc., for a player to remain eligible.  Additionally, I'm all for requiring community involvement, having high standards for playing the right way, demanding that we are good teammates, etc.  It is fine to raise that bar if you think it is necessary.  But when it comes to between the lines and in the dugout, we need to make baseball mostly about baseball. 

It is also important, IMO, that at the HS age, kids start figuring out that they not only have to have the best work ethic but they have to have the best talent and ability to earn those starting spots.  Another key aspect to running a successful baseball program that the boys will take pride in, year in and year out, is to be competitive.  Regardless of W-L record, the boys will know you are not being truly competitive if you are playing guys based on grades and work ethic over talent.  You gotta roll out your best 9.  Otherwise, it's just another class.  That is the last thing the student athlete is looking for when he signs up for a sport.

 

What if you're getting run ruled every game even with the best 9?  The guys on the bench wouldn't understand.  They don't get that the kid who can't hit can at least make a throw from lf to 1b while you can't make a throw from 2b to 1b.  

I'm a bit confused by your post... don't know why a guy would throw from LF to 1b and not sure who "you" is.  But, in any case, if you are up by a lot or down by a lot, more players get to play.  But you still start your best 9 and try to compete.  The players usually have a pretty good idea who the best are.

Hsbaseball101,

I'm sure your intentions are good and you are trying to find a way to make this coaching thing work, but it sounds like you are burnt out or in way over your head.  I don't think you are doing those kids any favors by staying on.  Perhaps it's time to take a firmer stand and hand the program over to someone else.

Smitty28 posted:

Hsbaseball101,

I'm sure your intentions are good and you are trying to find a way to make this coaching thing work, but it sounds like you are burnt out or in way over your head.  I don't think you are doing those kids any favors by staying on.  Perhaps it's time to take a firmer stand and hand the program over to someone else.

They asked many teachers to coach but none accepted.  I didn't want to take too much time from family but they were going to cancel the season so I agreed to do it.  Grades won't matter for the starting lineup anymore.  I was initially shocked at the sheer number of F's but the student advisor told me that this is the case every start of the semester and by the time the end of the year comes these kids will be getting all of their assignments turned in.  

I kept 18 players. If I had 22 solid players I would have kept 22. The ability to scrimmage and have multiple options is a good thing as far as I am concerned. Every player will have a critical role. From every day starters to Bull Pen catcher, to PH, DR, DH, utility players, developing a solid bull pen. The more young men that you can get the experience for the better as long as you understand how to manage it. Its amazing how much players improve when they are getting after it 5 to 6 days a week. Some people focus too much on the multiple innings played in actual games and not enough on the multiple hours spent getting better at the things that make you better. JMHO

Coach May as always you have a great perspective.  HS practice is where most the players skill set is developed.  I would add game experience has a lot of value as well.  We all know a big piece of this game is between the ears.  It's a rare bird that can come off the bench on occasion and play to his skill set.  That is a big challenge I have seen in HS with large rosters.  Getting the bench players enough live game reps to calm the voices in their head.   

So, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the varsity at son’s high school is carrying 18 players with eight of those being seniors - four PO’s and four position players.

Two of the four position players are starters and all four seniors arms will get mound time, including our #’s 1 & 2 starters. Obviously, that leaves two senior utility players.  

Well, last night we had two kids get injured and both senior utility players got four ab’s and combined to go 2-3 with a double and BB.

Oh, by the way it was against a team that rated as highly as #2 nationally in preseason polls. 

It’s was really fun to see those guys contribute in such a big game. 

I guess the moral of the story is to prepare like a starter because you never know when your number will be called.