Velocity

Kudos to those who can throw harder but in my opinion those who can show improvement in location and "pitch management" are the one's who have really taken the next step.

Amen rz. Some may disagree but painting the black, knee high with something that wiggles a little this way, and that way, over and over, all the live long day, makes for a happy coach. Ask Mike Pelfrey what it's like to throw 95 without getting your CB over. He turned into Cajun bait last year.

EDIT: Pitching "off" the fastball makes life easy.

Ahhhh, the I don't have it so it's no good crowd has arrived.

No wiggle, no movement, no change of speed is worth a d a m n if you first don't stress the hitter with velocity. There is a velocity "threshold" that must be reached (depending on your level) before anything else matters.

The only exception is the knuckleball.

KC,
I have to agree with rz on this one.

What progress a pitcher accomplishes in the off season should not solely be based on gain in velocity. In my son's case, he worked on perfecting his slider in the fall, and again working on changing speeds in his pitches, and movement. Taking time off for rest, getting back into a regular throwing program with conditioning, long toss and effective bullpens to hit your spots is most important. Velocity gains, in many pitchers usually will show up later in the season.
Increase in velocity comes naturally to many if attention is placed on proper mechanics and good conditioning. The way I see it anyone can throw, not everyone can pitch.

Linear,
My son has it, so does Dad's and rz's.
What I can tell you is that if my son's 93-94 mph fastball goes directly in a straight line towards the batter, he's looking at one hit 340-400 over his head, in his level of play.
If one wants to get to the "next" level and succeed as an effective pitcher, you better have a lot more that 90+ to give the opposition.
Oh and he would be pretty tired by the end of the first inning I would assume.

Linear

Pitching off the fastball is understood, I thought by everyone, as being most effective. It goes unsaid, but I edited my post for those those unaware.

quote:

Ahhhh, the I don't have it so it's no good crowd has arrived.

No wiggle, no movement, no change of speed is worth a d a m n if you first don't stress the hitter with velocity. There is a velocity "threshold" that must be reached (depending on your level) before anything else matters.

WOW. What a statement Linear.

I'll take a staff of HS pitchers who can locate a pitch and have no fear of throwing off-speed at any time in a count over over the thug that closes his eyes and lets it go.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:

quote:

Ahhhh, the I don't have it so it's no good crowd has arrived.

No wiggle, no movement, no change of speed is worth a d a m n if you first don't stress the hitter with velocity. There is a velocity "threshold" that must be reached (depending on your level) before anything else matters.

WOW. What a statement

I'll take a staff of HS pitchers who can locate a pitch and have no fear of throwing off-spped at any time in a count over over the thug that closes his eyes and lets it go.

Of course you would. And you also have to add "who closes his eyes" to make your point. It doesn't hold water otherwise.

quote:

Of course you would. And you also have to add "who closes his eyes" to make your point. It doesn't hold water otherwise.

Linear, So you saying that if you throw hard you to need to have good location? So work on location and then velocity

I AGREE

My son added 6 mph in the offseason to his fastball (he wasn't very fast to begin with though) from a little weight training and 5 months of pitching lessons. He did pick up a splitter though that drops like a rock.

I agree with rz and Dad. Velocity is great but number one is keep it low and change sppeds and hit your spots.

Gotta go with the "Control/Movement" crowd on this one. Velo is a wonderful thing, but as many threads on this site have addressed the fact that the straighter you are, the faster you better be. At some level, a minumum speed is probably necessary, but up to the top level, I think the control and movement can afford you much success.

No, Linear, my Junior DOESN'T have it - but he has played with plenty of kids who had a heckuva lot more than him, but WAY less success.

Unfortunately, there is a hard limit for every pitcher, relative to his top speed; there is also a real, somewhat lower limit. There is no real limit to movement and control - you can always improve on them.

No telling where my guy will finish velo-wise, but his success in Legion ball, and last year in a college level summer league [0.99 ERA], inclusing 5 shutout innings in the NABF College World Series have shown me that it's not only speed that kills. Whether you baffle 'em or blow 'em away, outs are outs.

quote:

Ask Mike Pelfrey what it's like to throw 95 without getting your CB over. He turned into Cajun bait last year.

And he's about to sign for a possible 6 million plus major league contract which is very rare.
__________________

I agree with the above posts about location, etc... just thought the Pelfrey comment was a little over the top.

quote:

And he's about to sign for a possible 6 million plus major league contract which is very rare.

I guess he had a bad day. He got through the line up ok once. Unfortunately they left him in for the one more round. I thought scrutiny went with a pick that high.

This wasn't intended to be an either/or question! I simply wondered what methods of off-season workouts (or rest) worked for your son.
Of course you need to put the ball over the plate. My question referred to what players did to increase their velocity. I wasn't trying to say that velocity was all that mattered!
Both location and velocity will get you noticed and you'll end up with success.
We've got one kid on our varsity who throws 90+ and can't find the strike zone. He sure scares the heck out of freshmen! Another LHP throws nothing but movement, never breaking 78mph. He's very succesfull against lesser teams, but disciplined players wait on his curve and crush him. I wish we could put the ability of those two together!
Just a velocity question, folks! Not trying to start an argument (though some people seem to be looking for one!).

KC,
I hear ya, but as you can see, is a HOT topic around here.

About six weeks of no pitching, to give his arm time for recovery (played HS ball last spring, select for summer & fall). Continued to work out with weights (baseball oriented workout) a couple of times a week. Plenty of running. Elastic band work.

Eased back into bullpens after the first. Looking good with plenty of pop on the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
Ahhhh, the I don't have it so it's no good crowd has arrived.

No wiggle, no movement, no change of speed is worth a d a m n if you first don't stress the hitter with velocity. There is a velocity "threshold" that must be reached (depending on your level) before anything else matters.

The only exception is the knuckleball.

Now for the off-topic.

And what is that threshold for HS, college & pro (respectively)?

quote:

Definition for threshold by Dictionary.com
a point of beginning : a minimum requirement for further action;

Again it is my opinion, that is not shared by all is that in this case velocity is the "minimuim requirement" and location is the "further action". It is all relative.

A HS or college pitcher throwing 90, but can't hit the side of a barn, may be overlooked. The same pitcher throwing 83 and moving the ball in/out up/down can be a highly touted commodity. where's the threshold? I see "further action" as the key. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the ability to get outs.

In the pro ranks, there may be a different perception.

quote:

I simply wondered what methods of off-season workouts (or rest) worked for your son.

KC

I can tell you that prolonged periods of inactivity, "resting the arm" have quickly rusted mechanics and eroded velocity. The most constant periods of good velocity and command to start the season were preceded by consistant long toss, "dry work" and lots throwing in scrimmage. The best velocity was at the end of the year, as TPM says.

I wonder about the prolonged periods of rest prescribed by some and their possible negative effect, especially for the smooth non-max effort throwers.

What do you considered "prolonged", Dad04?

JMO but any break longer than a couple of weeks, without throwing on a regular basis has proven to be detrimental to arm conditioning, command and such, requiring an equal amount of time to recoup. ie; if the glove got put up for a month, then a month of long toss, flat ground, bullpens alternating was needed to get ready really sharp for game innings. That probably varies with the individual. Some may need less time to get ready, some more. Some may need less rest, some more. It is just what I have seen.

I think RZ made some great points, but we shouldn't ignore Linear's. Location can be taught or practiced from a younger age when velocity just hasn't really arrived yet. Movement is a result of grip and good mechanics. When the thrower does finally grow into velocity, it can be a wonderful combination. However, we can teach young throwers to pitch a little more since not all are created equal and only a few will have dominating speed. When a thrower does possess exceptional velocity, and doesn't control well, its never too late to put him on a program that works spots. He can also be taught alternative grips to enhance movement. I'll take either, or both. It gives a staff a nice makeup. like to see kids rest for 6 weeks or so from mound and full velocity workouts. However, some long toss can be beneficial. The weight trainng is essential and so is running.

Dad04, I'm obviously not arguing with your observations. You've seen what you have seen. But my observations have been that a 6-8 week winter break from pitching can be very beneficial. Perhaps it is dependent upon the individual pitcher.

I have seen very little loss of command during the break, with any loss gone by the third bullpen or so. I have seen increased velocity. Rather than a six week layoff requiring six weeks to be back in throwing shape, I have seen only about two to three weeks.

Again, this must vary with the individual pitcher.

Keep in mind that a break from pitching does not necessarily mean a break from throwing--I am like to kids throw all year round

Some good points coachric.

Speed comes in two forms, the God given DNA, and results from hard work. I was a velocity freak when my son was young and as a youth he was quick, and with his size had the potential to be faster. As the talent level got better he stepped back and worked on location and the Change-up. He found out that the fastball looked a lot faster when a batter had to think about it and it was most likely going to be in the zone.

I think that the chef Emril Lagasse has figured this pitching thing out in the kitchen. You need to the the right combination of ingredients to have a successful recipe, then you "kick it up a notch".

I am not Dad04, but my take on prolonged would involve a rest after an injury.
Shutting down doesn't mean one has to have complete inactivity. And i do beleive that each pitcher and their coach can come up with a good plan for resting the arm.

Texan

We don't neccesarily disagree. Maybe symantics are different. To me, throwing shape is less efficient than game shape or more specifically game dominating and winning shape. Two or three weeks to get back throwing 50 or 60 game pitches is probably common, and what I've seen as well. The effects could be mental as much as physical and also pitcher specific, as we agree.

Without any implications whatsoever, maybe it boils down to the amount of command velocity and just "stuff" you need for success, and the individual mental and physical abilty to reload your toolbox.

I know my meager little toolbox on the golf course took alot of reloading to compete, now more than ever.

Some people just plain make it look easier than others.

EDIT: I recalled sons teammate. He was a 6-5 senior, All State QB, played hoops and was the number 1 pitcher. The hoop season ran almost right up to baseball season. He threw for a couple of weeks before he got in a game and really struggled for a month to be effective. He was drafted two months later in the third round by the Dodgers in 2001. Maybe since he was a 3 sport guy he was just flat rusty.

Like the well used saying goes,

"Hitting is about timing, pitching is about upsetting that timing."

Just had to use a smiley and haven't seen this one used much.

Looks like a Bronco's whitewash.

Linear,

You probably have figured this out by now, but I don't care, I'm going to mention it anyway:

Your statement "Ahhhh, the I don't have it so it's no good crowd has arrived." was absolutely incorrect. Many in the "crowd" who are posting in this thread are the parents of very good D1 college pitchers who do have 90+ mph fastballs, plus other pitching skills. Your input on the thread topic of "Velocity" is welcome, but there's no need to start out by disrespecting other members before you add your thoughts.

There are some things Linear doesnt understand yet.

Hopefully - as he grows in baseball experience - he will absorb it.

A 90 mph fastball - without movement - and/or location - is a 1st class ticket to Palooka-ville.

My kid's velo is just fine for his age and better yet everything that leaves his hand does something - runs in, dips, dives, 'hops'. He's experimented with his grips and he's got it down. I'm proud of the work he puts in on his velo and his movement. That's what I'm hearing from others as well. It takes the two to make the batter tango his butt back to the pine.

KC,

As a freshman doing a baseball specific weight lifting workout for the first time I think I have a good say in this. Not only have I gained some weight and muscle (started out 125-130 in beginning of year and already 145 now) but I have gained great flexibility too. I think the stretches we do and the baseball specific weight training has helped my velocity greatly. Even just throwing inside I can actually feel and see my arm strength has greatened big time. Also we do a lot of band work to strengthen the rotator cuff and shoulder muscles. My arm hasn't felt sore at all even after the first time I threw this off season. I'm just lovin it. Plus, who doesn't like a bit of buffin up in their body to show.

quote:

A 90 mph fastball - without movement - and/or location - is a 1st class ticket to Palooka-ville

.....and it's not even remotely close to a guarranteed ticket to RL (Rookie League). I know a few that have rode a 90+ heater off into the college sunset.

I hope we all understand that movement , change of speeds and location are a must to be an effective pitcher. But I also think that KC just wanted to know about velocity gains. Nothing wrong with that at all. Velocity does matter it is part of the equation. So anyone want to share how much your kid gained in the off season?

quote:

Originally posted by MN-Mom:
Linear,

You probably have figured this out by now, but I don't care, I'm going to mention it anyway:

Your statement "Ahhhh, the I don't have it so it's no good crowd has arrived." was absolutely incorrect. Many in the "crowd" who are posting in this thread are the parents of very good D1 college pitchers who do have 90+ mph fastballs, plus other pitching skills. Your input on the thread topic of "Velocity" is welcome, but there's no need to start out by disrespecting other members before you add your thoughts.

Ummmmm, if they are already throwing 90 then they know the importance of velocity.

I'm not talking to that group.

And I'm curious, why would you suggest any different.

Our off-season is still going, as are the off-season workouts. I'll bring out the Stalker in early March. Too early to tell........

Linear, you said:

"I'm not talking to that group.
And I'm curious, why would you suggest any different."

Your post that I responded to above was the 4th post in this thread.

Post 1 was the original question.
Post 2 was made by rz1 whose son pitches in the 90s, and was just named in the Baseball America (2006 college preview) as the Horizon League's player of the year.
Post 3 was made by Dad04 whose son also pitches for a strong D1 college - I know he throws hard and was an early signee out of HS, but don't know his exact velocity.
Post 4 was yours, saying "Ahhhh, the I don't have it so it's no good crowd has arrived."

It clearly does look like you were "talking to" the two posters directly before you, and aside from your assumption being incorrect, I found it disrespectful and plain old rude. The remainder of what you said in that post was an opinion that seems like a reasonable contribution to this thread, but I get very tired of seeing you include insulting comments to other members of this community in your posts.

If just one time you'll dress TR down on the public side of these forums, like you do me, I'll consider what you say.

Linear,
We all are required to consider what MN-Mom says. By choosing to remain anonymous and unleashing a barrage of cheap shots while hiding behind that anonymity is very cowardly.

Linear,

You and I have discussed this both publicly and privately before.

Your last response reminds me of a driver being stopped for speeding, and saying to the officer, "If you will first ticket all of the other drivers who have driven too fast on this road this week, then I will consider myself obligated to stop when you signal me to pull over (or pay the ticket, or whatever)."

That's not the way it works. We have posted rules for behavior in the forums, and I am addressing your behavior because it is in violation of those rules. I (and other moderators) also have discussions with other members about forum behavior, and whether those discussions are public or private usually depends on the overall picture of that member's behavior, and how they respond to a Private Message if that is tried first.

I seriously object to the disrespectful comments you make in a significant number of your posts, and I am asking you to stop doing that in order to retain your posting privileges.