Son just returned from his 1st overnight camp...great experience at a AAA Facility. They did some testing with the kids, and he threw 56 mph at age 10. Is that a decent speed for his age?
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At the age of 10 the young man should be concentrating on control and location---the velocity will come
It isn't bad, it isn't great. They change so much over the next couple years that there's no way to tell at this point.
As far "the velocity will come" that isn't always true and some kids will benefit from working on developing their velocity through long toss, etc.
I'm just not sure when it makes sense to start working on it. Some will tell you to start now, some will tell you to wait until he's much more physically mature.
We have a kid in our area who pitched in the LLWS and was hitting 74 at 12yo. Last time I heard at 18yo he was topping out at 86, seldom threw over 84 and was still a very good pitcher who will be pitching for an Ivy league school. A few other kids from that district who weren't throwing as hard at 12 now throw a lot harder and have major D1 scholarships. One of them was also a fifth round draft choice.
What's the moral of that story?
1. There's no guarantee that throwing hard at 12 will mean throwing hard at 18.
2. A good pitcher can pitch in college without throwing 90, especially if he has good grades.
3. Throwing 90+ will get you noticed.
As far "the velocity will come" that isn't always true and some kids will benefit from working on developing their velocity through long toss, etc.
I'm just not sure when it makes sense to start working on it. Some will tell you to start now, some will tell you to wait until he's much more physically mature.
We have a kid in our area who pitched in the LLWS and was hitting 74 at 12yo. Last time I heard at 18yo he was topping out at 86, seldom threw over 84 and was still a very good pitcher who will be pitching for an Ivy league school. A few other kids from that district who weren't throwing as hard at 12 now throw a lot harder and have major D1 scholarships. One of them was also a fifth round draft choice.
What's the moral of that story?
1. There's no guarantee that throwing hard at 12 will mean throwing hard at 18.
2. A good pitcher can pitch in college without throwing 90, especially if he has good grades.
3. Throwing 90+ will get you noticed.
Great thoughts by CADad and TRhit.
I would only add to their comments that your son is just 10 years old right now, and has a big amount of development to do physically and mentally. What he throws right now really doesn't matter, or measure much at all how he will project later on.
Just continue to teach proper conditioning habits and fundamentals for him to eventually grow into.
Stu
I would only add to their comments that your son is just 10 years old right now, and has a big amount of development to do physically and mentally. What he throws right now really doesn't matter, or measure much at all how he will project later on.
Just continue to teach proper conditioning habits and fundamentals for him to eventually grow into.
Stu
It doesn't matter. Every kid will grow differently. It matters once he gets into HS.
Keep it simple and keep it fun. No need to worry about Stalker readings at 10.
quote:Originally posted by turnin2:
Son just returned from his 1st overnight camp...great experience at a AAA Facility. They did some testing with the kids, and he threw 56 mph at age 10. Is that a decent speed for his age?
Yea, that's decent for his age, but a lot can change over the years. Yes it is good he is throwing with decent velocity at a young age but I have seen so many kids throw through the years and a lot changes. I remember being so happy when my kid first started pitching and also had decent velocity but was also worried about his mechanics the first two years (he never got sideways when he pitched the first year- it was all arm). Then over the following years he just naturally grew and changed his mechanics and now pitches better.
My son was pretty much the same velocity as your son at 10 (54-56). It is perfectly fine to wonder about velocity even at his age- after all, I too was worried about it at that age just as I am still worried about it the same now (4 years later). If everything goes well, meaning, that he grows, has good mechanics and continues to improve, can pitch without joint pain, then he will blossom into a good pitcher with continued decent velocity. Really watch for where pain occurs in the young arm. Some slight tricep and bicep pain from time to time is ok, just really watch for kid complaining of elbow or shoulder joint pain- it is a signe that mechanics are off somewhere and can lead to lower velocity or a short pitching career.
As I remeber, here are my sons velocity since 10-
10 yrs. 54-56mph
11 yrs. 59-63mph
12 yrs. 65-68mph
13 yrs. 69-72mph
14 yrs. 74-79mph
quote:
Originally posted by turnin2:
Son just returned from his 1st overnight camp...great experience at a AAA Facility. They did some testing with the kids, and he threw 56 mph at age 10. Is that a decent speed for his age?
Maybe it's me but I can't honestly see why gunning a kid at 10yrs old is even being done! Are you kidding?
Right now he should be learning the basics of baseball and more importantly - just having fun!
The next thing he should learn if he's going to be a pitcher are pitching mechanics. Note that I did not say how to throw hard. HOW to pitch.
I'm sorry but this just blows my mind that emphasis are put on velocity for a kid this young.
YGD
My top 3 tips for 10yo:
1. Work on technique.
2. Work on learning every grip - don't have to use them in a game.
3. Don't pitch more than 2-3 innings per game.
(Radar guns won't hurt you)
1. Work on technique.
2. Work on learning every grip - don't have to use them in a game.
3. Don't pitch more than 2-3 innings per game.
(Radar guns won't hurt you)
Alright, guess I should have been more specific in the reason for my question. Truthfully I could care less how hard he throws according to Stalker or Jugs or anything else. They said they did the velocity test to show the kids how technique can improve results, and so the kid could see their improvements. I only wondered because several coaches commented in surprise "he"s only 10?" So curiosity stirred and I hoped somebody like the person a few posts up could give some insight on their kid. I'm not making a plan like Bryce Harper is in the next room! I know how he does in our local league and Super Series and wanted to see how other kids his age do. He does have very good mechanics, I've coaches HS ball long enough to know kids change and development rates change, again OTHER people seemed to be impressed, and it made me wonder, maybe even more so when he threw harder than several older kids, if that was good for his age. Thanks for the responses.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by turnin2:
They said they did the velocity test to show the kids how technique can improve results, and so the kid could see their improvements.
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This would be much more plausible in why he was timed and would be a great learning tool.
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He does have very good mechanics
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In the years that I've been involved in baseball I can honestly say that Ive never seen a 10yr old that had "very good" mechanics. I'm not trying to split hairs here but 99.9% of kids this age are just learning the how-to of pitching, and that's ok. No 10yr old is polished with mechanics.
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Dad, I too had a son at age 10 who seemed to throw harder than other kids his age. When I noticed this there were 2 things very obvious to me: 1 - his litle league coach had not clue about how to teach pitching to my son and 2 - I needed to find some kind of pitching videos to teach him the proper way to pitch.
You know how hard he throws now so put it aside and find someone (if not yourself) who can teach him the finer things about pitching. Velocity at this age IMO should not be any focus at all.
Good luck.
Originally posted by turnin2:
They said they did the velocity test to show the kids how technique can improve results, and so the kid could see their improvements.
________________________________________________
This would be much more plausible in why he was timed and would be a great learning tool.
________________________________________________
He does have very good mechanics
________________________________________________
In the years that I've been involved in baseball I can honestly say that Ive never seen a 10yr old that had "very good" mechanics. I'm not trying to split hairs here but 99.9% of kids this age are just learning the how-to of pitching, and that's ok. No 10yr old is polished with mechanics.
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Dad, I too had a son at age 10 who seemed to throw harder than other kids his age. When I noticed this there were 2 things very obvious to me: 1 - his litle league coach had not clue about how to teach pitching to my son and 2 - I needed to find some kind of pitching videos to teach him the proper way to pitch.
You know how hard he throws now so put it aside and find someone (if not yourself) who can teach him the finer things about pitching. Velocity at this age IMO should not be any focus at all.
Good luck.
My son was timed at a camp when he was 10 or 11, and was in the low to mid 60s. He doesn't pitch now, so I can't extrapolate.
Having watched kids go from 10 to 16, I can say it is very hard to predict which ones will continue to improve over the years and which will be late bloomers. Hitting is a great thing to watch - many of the ball smashers at 12 struggle hitting the curve ball at 15, for instance, so the batting order gets shaken up.
Fun to watch - every year is an adventure. Enjoy!
Having watched kids go from 10 to 16, I can say it is very hard to predict which ones will continue to improve over the years and which will be late bloomers. Hitting is a great thing to watch - many of the ball smashers at 12 struggle hitting the curve ball at 15, for instance, so the batting order gets shaken up.
Fun to watch - every year is an adventure. Enjoy!
Gingerbreadman...
I want you and this other gentleman to know that I am not here by any means to blast or ridicule anyone. I promise. Though I have given my opinion on the subject and it may have not come across politically correct, I gave it only because of the things I have seen and experienced over the years when dealing when young kids who want to pitch.
You've heard the saying "even a blind squirrel finds a nut here and there"...well..your "teaching" of just throwing harder if he's struggling will help him find the strike zone is laughable. But hey, if it worked for your son I tip my hat to you. What you should have taught him is to make the proper adjustment with his mechanics on the mound. That is where a pitcher begins to find the zone again.
What age is your son now? I'm curious. If he has college pitching coaches and scouts telling him that he will be a good pitcher some day then I'd guess he is in HS? Working hard and refining his mechanics are 2 of the most important ingredients he can do if he wants to pitch past HS. I speak from experience.
Again, I disagree with your statement "No matter what a lot of people say, always focus on maintaing good velocity when he pitches". Why? Because as your and Turnin2's sons get older they (and you) will realize that velocity is not the only thing to pitching and getting batters out. Developing "wrinkles" with a 2nd and 3rd pitch will be just as important. They accentuate the FB.
Teach them how to be consistent on their mechanics and their velocity should never be a question.
My son is a pitcher in college and even he will tell you than making an adjustment with his mechanics during a game himself is what helps keep him on track and successful, not throwing harder.
Videoing is not a bad idea. I'd recommend that you also do it while practicing on mechanics so that you will have a reference point after a game to show where a breakdown may have occurred.
I want you and this other gentleman to know that I am not here by any means to blast or ridicule anyone. I promise. Though I have given my opinion on the subject and it may have not come across politically correct, I gave it only because of the things I have seen and experienced over the years when dealing when young kids who want to pitch.
You've heard the saying "even a blind squirrel finds a nut here and there"...well..your "teaching" of just throwing harder if he's struggling will help him find the strike zone is laughable. But hey, if it worked for your son I tip my hat to you. What you should have taught him is to make the proper adjustment with his mechanics on the mound. That is where a pitcher begins to find the zone again.
What age is your son now? I'm curious. If he has college pitching coaches and scouts telling him that he will be a good pitcher some day then I'd guess he is in HS? Working hard and refining his mechanics are 2 of the most important ingredients he can do if he wants to pitch past HS. I speak from experience.
Again, I disagree with your statement "No matter what a lot of people say, always focus on maintaing good velocity when he pitches". Why? Because as your and Turnin2's sons get older they (and you) will realize that velocity is not the only thing to pitching and getting batters out. Developing "wrinkles" with a 2nd and 3rd pitch will be just as important. They accentuate the FB.
Teach them how to be consistent on their mechanics and their velocity should never be a question.
My son is a pitcher in college and even he will tell you than making an adjustment with his mechanics during a game himself is what helps keep him on track and successful, not throwing harder.
Videoing is not a bad idea. I'd recommend that you also do it while practicing on mechanics so that you will have a reference point after a game to show where a breakdown may have occurred.
Again just trying to see what some other kids his age are doing. As for myself I was a successful 2-way player in HS and the D2 level, had some pro-ball interest, life choices changed that. I've coached HS for 13 years and have had some very successful players. At 10 he does have good mechanics, but I will say "what are good mechanics?" He uses his lower body well, leads with his front hip, has a good arm slot, extends well, throws in front of front leg...does he need work, of course! He's 10! Many would say Lincecum doesn't have good mechanics, nor the kid at UCLA, but mechanics, whether hitting or pitching, are generally unique to the individual due to their strengths.
Younggundad,
Just to clarify a little bit. When son was 10 the notion was around the league (and I am sure it is the same everywhere) was that when you are starting to struggle, because of nerves or who knows, to slow down and lob a strike in there. From that logic I have seen way too many kids develop slow "placement" strikes right down the gut that ends up getting hammered. I took a different approach realizing that often times a young pitcher is too worried about placement versus throwing hard. We instead took the road of throwing a little harder forces the body to refine mechanics and repeat the mechanics more efficiently with a more consistant arm path and release point. All I can say is it works- at least for my son. It works for batting also. When son struggles hitting i take him out and throw wiffle balls as hard as I can at him which I believe forces him to cut out all of the wierd "wiggles" and "glitches" out of the motion forcing him to have a more efficient swing path.
As for my son, he is 14 years old and will be a freshman in HS in the fall. He already has developed both a change-up and breaking ball. He has pitched well because of the great movement he gets on all three of his pitches. The coaches at the camps have said- "has great arm side run", and "has a live arm" on the papers. There are others his age that throw harder around where we play but none have as great clutch and control as he has when it counts. Personally i believe it comes from repeating a more consistant velocity throughout games.
I have also taught son to throw breaking ball and CU with a high level of velocity- never fall into the trap of trying to slow down and place those pitches. If the breaking ball doesn;t break as much because it is faster doesn't mean it isn't a good pitch, but perhaps it is a greater pitch when a high level of velocity is maintained and he can sell the arm motion better and get deeper before the ball breaks hard..
Just to clarify a little bit. When son was 10 the notion was around the league (and I am sure it is the same everywhere) was that when you are starting to struggle, because of nerves or who knows, to slow down and lob a strike in there. From that logic I have seen way too many kids develop slow "placement" strikes right down the gut that ends up getting hammered. I took a different approach realizing that often times a young pitcher is too worried about placement versus throwing hard. We instead took the road of throwing a little harder forces the body to refine mechanics and repeat the mechanics more efficiently with a more consistant arm path and release point. All I can say is it works- at least for my son. It works for batting also. When son struggles hitting i take him out and throw wiffle balls as hard as I can at him which I believe forces him to cut out all of the wierd "wiggles" and "glitches" out of the motion forcing him to have a more efficient swing path.
As for my son, he is 14 years old and will be a freshman in HS in the fall. He already has developed both a change-up and breaking ball. He has pitched well because of the great movement he gets on all three of his pitches. The coaches at the camps have said- "has great arm side run", and "has a live arm" on the papers. There are others his age that throw harder around where we play but none have as great clutch and control as he has when it counts. Personally i believe it comes from repeating a more consistant velocity throughout games.
I have also taught son to throw breaking ball and CU with a high level of velocity- never fall into the trap of trying to slow down and place those pitches. If the breaking ball doesn;t break as much because it is faster doesn't mean it isn't a good pitch, but perhaps it is a greater pitch when a high level of velocity is maintained and he can sell the arm motion better and get deeper before the ball breaks hard..
I give up.
Good luck to both of you.
YGD
Good luck to both of you.
YGD
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
I give up.
Good luck to both of you.
YGD
turnin2,
My advice to you is to be very careful of certain advice and parental "pitching techniques" given on a message board.
At 10 there is only one thing that you should be concerned with your player, developing and maintaining good mechanics and placement of the fast ball. He can begin experimenting with the CU as his off speed pitch, I suggest no curveballs to be thrown in games until 14,15.
Despite what's written here, the harder a young pitcher throws the more problems he will develop later on. In fact, IMO, the later you start your player pitching, the better off he will be. Keep it simple as suggested and have fun.
Research has proven that the hardest pitch on an arm is the fastball, not the curve-ball. There is nothing wrong with pitching at an early age or throwing hard at an early age. It is true that some kids should wait or limit their pitching- perhaps the few minority who have such bad mechanics that joint pain is persistant from little league all through HS. For them it don't matter when they start pitching- they will always have problems. My son knows a kid who always asks him if his arm hurts after pitching because his arm hurts. My son has been pitching for a few years longer than the other kid- not that it has anything to do with it, just stating the fact that starting pitching at an early age has nothing to do with arm problems later on. That philosophy is complete bull#@%$ if you ask me. If a young kid can pitch without joint and arm pain and doesn't over-pitch he will develop a much stronger and healthier arm by the time he gets to HS- just my opinion, but I am sticking by it.
Ok. I'm picking my flag up off the ground to chime in once more.
I don't think anyone is saying throwing hard is a bad thing nor that pitching at an early age is either. It's just that a Dad's focus for a young pitcher should be on proper mechanics, having fun, and one more I will add...making sure your son is not being over-used and/or "fatigued". Overuse of a young arm is a killer on arms. Thus the reasoning behind why the LL has a pitch count in place now. Kudos to them.
Don't believe me on fatigue? Ever heard of Dr. James Andrews? Read this: Fatigue the key risk
And one last thing. Your comment "if a young kid can pitch without joint and arm pain and doesn't over-pitch he will develop a much stronger and healthier arm" isn't exactly correct. A good long-toss program, various band work, and arm conditioning will develop a healthier arm. I know it may be semantics but I wanted to clarify that point.
If both of you are coaching your sons, then Im preaching to the choir about over-using your son in a season or worse...a year. But some over-zealous coaches see a kid who throws hard and next thing you know he's tossing the egg more than the others and helping get out of a pinch in a close game after tossing 65 pitches 2 nights before.
I don't think anyone is saying throwing hard is a bad thing nor that pitching at an early age is either. It's just that a Dad's focus for a young pitcher should be on proper mechanics, having fun, and one more I will add...making sure your son is not being over-used and/or "fatigued". Overuse of a young arm is a killer on arms. Thus the reasoning behind why the LL has a pitch count in place now. Kudos to them.
Don't believe me on fatigue? Ever heard of Dr. James Andrews? Read this: Fatigue the key risk
And one last thing. Your comment "if a young kid can pitch without joint and arm pain and doesn't over-pitch he will develop a much stronger and healthier arm" isn't exactly correct. A good long-toss program, various band work, and arm conditioning will develop a healthier arm. I know it may be semantics but I wanted to clarify that point.
If both of you are coaching your sons, then Im preaching to the choir about over-using your son in a season or worse...a year. But some over-zealous coaches see a kid who throws hard and next thing you know he's tossing the egg more than the others and helping get out of a pinch in a close game after tossing 65 pitches 2 nights before.
All good thoughts. I promise you as a player who was overpitched in high school, I am very aware as to how much my son, or any player I coach is throwing.
Dr. James Andrews has some great reads, as do Orel Hershiser, Tom House, and many other of the NPA which I am a member of.
Here again, I was just trying to see where his velocity stands compared to kids his age...boys I have a Jugs and Bushnell at school, never once put them on him. Some good thoughts and opinions though.
Dr. James Andrews has some great reads, as do Orel Hershiser, Tom House, and many other of the NPA which I am a member of.
Here again, I was just trying to see where his velocity stands compared to kids his age...boys I have a Jugs and Bushnell at school, never once put them on him. Some good thoughts and opinions though.
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
Ok. I'm picking my flag up off the ground to chime in once more.
I don't think anyone is saying throwing hard is a bad thing nor that pitching at an early age is either. It's just that a Dad's focus for a young pitcher should be on proper mechanics, having fun, and one more I will add...making sure your son is not being over-used and/or "fatigued". Overuse of a young arm is a killer on arms. Thus the reasoning behind why the LL has a pitch count in place now. Kudos to them.
Don't believe me on fatigue? Ever heard of Dr. James Andrews? Read this: Fatigue the key risk
And one last thing. Your comment "if a young kid can pitch without joint and arm pain and doesn't over-pitch he will develop a much stronger and healthier arm" isn't exactly correct. A good long-toss program, various band work, and arm conditioning will develop a healthier arm. I know it may be semantics but I wanted to clarify that point.
If both of you are coaching your sons, then Im preaching to the choir about over-using your son in a season or worse...a year. But some over-zealous coaches see a kid who throws hard and next thing you know he's tossing the egg more than the others and helping get out of a pinch in a close game after tossing 65 pitches 2 nights before.
I totally agree with you on the whole fatigue issue. I took my kid off a team and put him on another because they got into the habit of pitching him a little too much in the "pinch". I also agree that conditioning the arm through various excersize will develop a healthy arm. I know that throwing often (not pitching, but just throwing) is one of the greatest things for arm health. I also know through many trips to the chiropractor that stretching out the leg muscles around the pelvis area in a growing boy is vital to the torque generated from batting, running, jumping and pitching. It is probably one of the most overlooked areas in growing boys- just how tight the muscles in the legs are which effects their range of motion.
After the last trip to the physical therapist where he had to push his pelvis back into place through his stomach (playing basketball), my son always takes about 5-10 minutes stretching the muscles that support the lower back and pelvis.
It's fine as far as his age. There may be kids that throw harder but if your kid is throwing strikes with that speed he will be effective.
Like others have said mechanics are much more important. Concentrating on that now and getting him fundamentally correct will pay much more in dividends than worrying about velocity now. Getting him into the habit of throwing correctly now will save him a lot of pain and worry later on when altering his mechanics may be a lot harder.
Like others have said mechanics are much more important. Concentrating on that now and getting him fundamentally correct will pay much more in dividends than worrying about velocity now. Getting him into the habit of throwing correctly now will save him a lot of pain and worry later on when altering his mechanics may be a lot harder.
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Yes there is. Here is why. First of all, the power generated to throw a high velo fastball comes from the lower half and core not the top half. It's not about the arm. The arm goes for the ride. Young pitchers do not have the lower body or core conditioned to throw greater velocity than the arm is capable of. That takes years and years to develop. That's why most young pitchers hurt, even with good mechanics they often throw with their upper body. Long toss (something that you told us once you don't beleive in) provides conditioning for the shoulder to throw farther, not necessarily harder and provides the conditioning for the muscles and joints to support the added stress placed on those muscles used.
The young pitcher should be taught to locate his pitches using what is comfortable for him and proper arm, body mechanics and velocity should not be paid attention to until he begins a full workout and conditioning program, which 10 year olds don't need unless they spend most of their time on the couch, the other stuff comes later on when their bodies develop and mature, naturally, then you can go to work on the velocity. Of course over use can affect injuries sooner than later. So can making young bodies work hard at weight training.
As far as not pitching until older, there are many that say that not until the growth plates are almost closed is the safer time to begin pitching from the mound. We don't have crystal balls to see that, so some make a comfortable guess at when that might be, around 11-12. This was a discussion my son had with a top shoulder specialist in the country. BTW his problem was due to an enlarged cortacoid bone, causing impingement causing tendinitous very rare, and often seen as the pitcher becomes fully grown.
The curveball is a bad pitch because young pitchers use it to be successful, and very few can throw a CB correctly. I said not to begin using it until 14 and I meant in game situations. By this time the pitcher should be relying on his FB, with CU for his breaking pitch for 85-90% of his pitches thrown, not the other way around. All pitches should come from the same slot as well. You told us once he has different arm slots for each pitch. Young hitter shave no clue what that is, smarter and older ones do.
Another thing, the constant stretching of young muscles is dangerous, because you have no idea what your son's actual frame will be like. They become so stretched they then are unable to support the bones and hold them into place.
You gave a situation where your son knows one kid that his arm hurt, well I know of dozens that gave up pitching because their arm hurt, because someone thought that they would be better off throwing HARDER than they should when they were young.
One more thing, CU and CB that are most effective are those that appear to come out of the arm just like the FB, the grip is the key, not slowing down arm speed. The purpose is to throw the hitter off balance in change in speeds. If you are teaching your son to maintain approximately the same speed, as he meets smarter pitchers no matter where the break is, they will know better and be able to figure it out in no time, trust me on this one. If you are preparing your son this way for his future, it ain't going to work. JMO.
You have come up with some unconventional ways in developing a pitcher, that's ok, it's your son and you can do what you feel is best for him, he's 14 hasn't proven that he will be healthy in future years, then you can come back and let us know, until then you shouldn't give unproven advice on a message board when you know nothing about the pitcher the parent is telling us about. He may be less physically immature than your son was at that age, smaller, taller, shorter arm, longer arm, shorter or longer legged, etc. That makes a big differnce in how hard a young player can actually throw or not throw until he develops into a man's body.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
There is nothing wrong with pitching at an early age or throwing hard at an early age.
Yes there is. Here is why. First of all, the power generated to throw a high velo fastball comes from the lower half and core not the top half. It's not about the arm. The arm goes for the ride. Young pitchers do not have the lower body or core conditioned to throw greater velocity than the arm is capable of. That takes years and years to develop. That's why most young pitchers hurt, even with good mechanics they often throw with their upper body. Long toss (something that you told us once you don't beleive in) provides conditioning for the shoulder to throw farther, not necessarily harder and provides the conditioning for the muscles and joints to support the added stress placed on those muscles used.
The young pitcher should be taught to locate his pitches using what is comfortable for him and proper arm, body mechanics and velocity should not be paid attention to until he begins a full workout and conditioning program, which 10 year olds don't need unless they spend most of their time on the couch, the other stuff comes later on when their bodies develop and mature, naturally, then you can go to work on the velocity. Of course over use can affect injuries sooner than later. So can making young bodies work hard at weight training.
As far as not pitching until older, there are many that say that not until the growth plates are almost closed is the safer time to begin pitching from the mound. We don't have crystal balls to see that, so some make a comfortable guess at when that might be, around 11-12. This was a discussion my son had with a top shoulder specialist in the country. BTW his problem was due to an enlarged cortacoid bone, causing impingement causing tendinitous very rare, and often seen as the pitcher becomes fully grown.
The curveball is a bad pitch because young pitchers use it to be successful, and very few can throw a CB correctly. I said not to begin using it until 14 and I meant in game situations. By this time the pitcher should be relying on his FB, with CU for his breaking pitch for 85-90% of his pitches thrown, not the other way around. All pitches should come from the same slot as well. You told us once he has different arm slots for each pitch. Young hitter shave no clue what that is, smarter and older ones do.
Another thing, the constant stretching of young muscles is dangerous, because you have no idea what your son's actual frame will be like. They become so stretched they then are unable to support the bones and hold them into place.
You gave a situation where your son knows one kid that his arm hurt, well I know of dozens that gave up pitching because their arm hurt, because someone thought that they would be better off throwing HARDER than they should when they were young.
One more thing, CU and CB that are most effective are those that appear to come out of the arm just like the FB, the grip is the key, not slowing down arm speed. The purpose is to throw the hitter off balance in change in speeds. If you are teaching your son to maintain approximately the same speed, as he meets smarter pitchers no matter where the break is, they will know better and be able to figure it out in no time, trust me on this one. If you are preparing your son this way for his future, it ain't going to work. JMO.
You have come up with some unconventional ways in developing a pitcher, that's ok, it's your son and you can do what you feel is best for him, he's 14 hasn't proven that he will be healthy in future years, then you can come back and let us know, until then you shouldn't give unproven advice on a message board when you know nothing about the pitcher the parent is telling us about. He may be less physically immature than your son was at that age, smaller, taller, shorter arm, longer arm, shorter or longer legged, etc. That makes a big differnce in how hard a young player can actually throw or not throw until he develops into a man's body.
"unproven advice"? hmmm... That pretty much sums up every idea about pitching that I've ever heard. 
Sometimes armside run comes from opening early in addition to the arm slot. That can cause arm problems.
Just anecdotal evidence but I've generally seen that a lot of the kids who threw hard early seem to run into arm issues by the time they are about college age.
As far as fastballs being harder on the arm, people base that on recent info from ASMI showing that properly thrown curves stress the arm less than fastballs. However, in the past ASMI has done studies showing that throwing a curve increased the probability of elbow and shoulder pain, especially shoulder pain. My elbow always hurt after throwing a lot of curves so the part about the shoulder surprised me. The fact that kids end up with more injuries when they throw curves trumps the study saying that there isn't more stress from throwing a curve properly by a longshot. Guess what? The properly thrown curves don't work as well. Guess what? The kids are going to figure out what works best and throw it that way no matter what you tell them.
Just anecdotal evidence but I've generally seen that a lot of the kids who threw hard early seem to run into arm issues by the time they are about college age.
As far as fastballs being harder on the arm, people base that on recent info from ASMI showing that properly thrown curves stress the arm less than fastballs. However, in the past ASMI has done studies showing that throwing a curve increased the probability of elbow and shoulder pain, especially shoulder pain. My elbow always hurt after throwing a lot of curves so the part about the shoulder surprised me. The fact that kids end up with more injuries when they throw curves trumps the study saying that there isn't more stress from throwing a curve properly by a longshot. Guess what? The properly thrown curves don't work as well. Guess what? The kids are going to figure out what works best and throw it that way no matter what you tell them.
I think (again...think) that what is worrisome to most about young players throwing a curve ball are the ones who are allowing them to be thrown before the growth plates come together. Like Dr. Andrews article says, usually by the time they can begin shaving is a pretty safe time for them to start learning.
I remember when Younggunson was playing LL and there was this other team in the league that had a lefty who was nothing but lights out. Not only did he throw hard but he had a filthy curveball. Of course, being that we had only being playing ball for a couple of years we were just as mesmerized by his pitching as everyone else.
Fastfoward to his Senior year in HS when we faced him. Son asked if he was pitching against us that night and he said that he only plays 1B now. His arm/elbow killed him to pitch now and gave it up.
That was the last year he played ball again.
True story. It's sad because I liked the kid and his family.
YGD
I remember when Younggunson was playing LL and there was this other team in the league that had a lefty who was nothing but lights out. Not only did he throw hard but he had a filthy curveball. Of course, being that we had only being playing ball for a couple of years we were just as mesmerized by his pitching as everyone else.
Fastfoward to his Senior year in HS when we faced him. Son asked if he was pitching against us that night and he said that he only plays 1B now. His arm/elbow killed him to pitch now and gave it up.
That was the last year he played ball again.
True story. It's sad because I liked the kid and his family.
YGD
TPM,
Let me just say...You assume too much about me and my son, you truly have no idea to judge me just based off the very limited info I have given out. So, I will explain a few points that you have assumed about me that are wrong.
The first issue is the stretching. Every physical therapist and doctor who have examined him, adjusted him, and caught him up on medical info relating to his back and pelvis have stressed the importance of him stretching- exactly how to do it, why to do it, and when to do it. When he follows that advice he has no problem with keeping his pelvis from tilting and his L-5 lumbar from going out of alignment. So, argue with the paid doctors on that issue- thats not my advice- thats sound doctors advice. Maybe you didn't read it, but he tilted his pelvis the last time playing basketball when he jumped to get a rebound. The doctors have actually told him to keep active and "stretch a lot"- keep active.
Second, My son very occasionally will drop down and throw a side-arm pitch. As for this year- he hasn't done it once. So give that old bone up.
Third, As for pitchinga t an early age, perhaps you should take your case up with "Babe Ruth/ Cal Ripken, Little League, Pony" etc. There has never been a connection with throwing early leading to more complications than later on. Take your case elsewhere. You are not going to stop kids from being active, having fun, etc.
As for long toss- I never said I was against it, I just said that I think other throwing activities produce either the same or better results. I never was against long toss, just as I am not against band work or anything else. I just believe that bullpens are more effective to providing velocity and consistancy for a "pitcher" specific workout. If you think I am wrong take your case to every MLB organization- they all do bullpens. Some as I know do not incorporate a long toss program into their program but all believe in bullpens.
Who said anything about slowing down the arm? Maybe you didn't understand me. I think we are both saying the same thing. I teach my son to throw all of his pitches "hard", MEANING- don't slow down the ARM. Just so you know, my sons fastball usually sits around the mid 70's while his breaking ball sits aroundthe upper 60's to low 70's. One coach at a camp actually called his CB a slider because of the velocity he generates with it. So whether its a slider or a CB, it is effective because he throws it as hard with the ARM as he does the fastball, same as the CU.
There is no unconventional ways I have spoken of in developing a pitcher. You just seem to be barking up the wrong tree. All I have generally said was to not "slow down the pitches and "place them" when a pitcher struggles. I said that often times it's when they start trying to place them, that their velocity drops off and that they become less effective. Also, lobbing in meatballs does nothing in training young pitchers how to throw. I just teach my son to work on throwing hard to get things back in line. Like I said- it works at least for him. Earlier this year he was able to throw a complete game no-hitter because of his ability to maintain good velocity while getting strikes and getting batters out. You may call it unconventional or unproven advice, I call a no-hitter proof of what works. Two years ago when he finished the little league season with a perfect 0.00 era, I called that success. So call it what you want but the things I have taught my son has proven, at least to this point, success.
Let me just say...You assume too much about me and my son, you truly have no idea to judge me just based off the very limited info I have given out. So, I will explain a few points that you have assumed about me that are wrong.
The first issue is the stretching. Every physical therapist and doctor who have examined him, adjusted him, and caught him up on medical info relating to his back and pelvis have stressed the importance of him stretching- exactly how to do it, why to do it, and when to do it. When he follows that advice he has no problem with keeping his pelvis from tilting and his L-5 lumbar from going out of alignment. So, argue with the paid doctors on that issue- thats not my advice- thats sound doctors advice. Maybe you didn't read it, but he tilted his pelvis the last time playing basketball when he jumped to get a rebound. The doctors have actually told him to keep active and "stretch a lot"- keep active.
Second, My son very occasionally will drop down and throw a side-arm pitch. As for this year- he hasn't done it once. So give that old bone up.
Third, As for pitchinga t an early age, perhaps you should take your case up with "Babe Ruth/ Cal Ripken, Little League, Pony" etc. There has never been a connection with throwing early leading to more complications than later on. Take your case elsewhere. You are not going to stop kids from being active, having fun, etc.
As for long toss- I never said I was against it, I just said that I think other throwing activities produce either the same or better results. I never was against long toss, just as I am not against band work or anything else. I just believe that bullpens are more effective to providing velocity and consistancy for a "pitcher" specific workout. If you think I am wrong take your case to every MLB organization- they all do bullpens. Some as I know do not incorporate a long toss program into their program but all believe in bullpens.
Who said anything about slowing down the arm? Maybe you didn't understand me. I think we are both saying the same thing. I teach my son to throw all of his pitches "hard", MEANING- don't slow down the ARM. Just so you know, my sons fastball usually sits around the mid 70's while his breaking ball sits aroundthe upper 60's to low 70's. One coach at a camp actually called his CB a slider because of the velocity he generates with it. So whether its a slider or a CB, it is effective because he throws it as hard with the ARM as he does the fastball, same as the CU.
There is no unconventional ways I have spoken of in developing a pitcher. You just seem to be barking up the wrong tree. All I have generally said was to not "slow down the pitches and "place them" when a pitcher struggles. I said that often times it's when they start trying to place them, that their velocity drops off and that they become less effective. Also, lobbing in meatballs does nothing in training young pitchers how to throw. I just teach my son to work on throwing hard to get things back in line. Like I said- it works at least for him. Earlier this year he was able to throw a complete game no-hitter because of his ability to maintain good velocity while getting strikes and getting batters out. You may call it unconventional or unproven advice, I call a no-hitter proof of what works. Two years ago when he finished the little league season with a perfect 0.00 era, I called that success. So call it what you want but the things I have taught my son has proven, at least to this point, success.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
However, in the past ASMI has done studies showing that throwing a curve increased the probability of elbow and shoulder pain, especially shoulder pain.
CADad, I respect your opinion. But, ASMI drew some faulty conclusions from that study using some bad logic. (This is why I think they should just stick to repairing injuries)
They found that kids that only threw fastballs, had less injuries than kids that also threw a (self-identified) curveball.
Then they made the leap of logic that throwing curveballs caused the injuries.
If you think about that for a minute, you'll realize they have no way of correlating the curve balls with the increased injuries. Kids that throw CB likely also throw most of the game pitches, etc., etc. They never tested any kid's technique to see if they were actually throwing curveballs, or maybe sliders, or slurves, or something else. Maybe the kids that throw many grips also throw harder. Who knows?
Turnin2,
The important question here would be, do I really know my Childs biological (not chronological) age?
This is easily done by taking x-rays of both arms from the shoulder to mid forearm on both sides of each arm on or near his chronological birthday.
This is critical! Knowing your Childs biological age (especially if he desires to pitch at this age) gives you the information you need to control when you can encourage him to get fastball outs. Better to exaggerate the motor skill acquisition drills that will teach him how to control spin to both sides of the ball while pronating all of them at this biological age knowing his fasttwitch muscle fiber percentage is locked and he will never loose the capability to throw as fast as he can if he is healthy and in shape, nothing that anybody does now adds to later velocity.
Do not let him pitch more than 2 innings once a week for only 3 months of the year during spring! This is when you do not want to mess with him bone development and competition is bone degenerative in the ballistic realm.
When he turns biologically 13 the growth plates in his elbows would have solidified and you can then encourage him to pitch more fastballs and train ballistically. What if he is biologically 9 now?
You could only know this answer if you had biological age data to work with and since our game is picked subjectively the faster kids get to pitch more giving them most of the overstress deformity.
56 is bringin it for a 10 year old equated (Biologically and Chronologically 10yo) maturer.
quote:They did some testing with the kids, and he threw 56 mph at age 10.
The important question here would be, do I really know my Childs biological (not chronological) age?
This is easily done by taking x-rays of both arms from the shoulder to mid forearm on both sides of each arm on or near his chronological birthday.
This is critical! Knowing your Childs biological age (especially if he desires to pitch at this age) gives you the information you need to control when you can encourage him to get fastball outs. Better to exaggerate the motor skill acquisition drills that will teach him how to control spin to both sides of the ball while pronating all of them at this biological age knowing his fasttwitch muscle fiber percentage is locked and he will never loose the capability to throw as fast as he can if he is healthy and in shape, nothing that anybody does now adds to later velocity.
Do not let him pitch more than 2 innings once a week for only 3 months of the year during spring! This is when you do not want to mess with him bone development and competition is bone degenerative in the ballistic realm.
When he turns biologically 13 the growth plates in his elbows would have solidified and you can then encourage him to pitch more fastballs and train ballistically. What if he is biologically 9 now?
quote:“Is that a decent speed for his age?”
You could only know this answer if you had biological age data to work with and since our game is picked subjectively the faster kids get to pitch more giving them most of the overstress deformity.
56 is bringin it for a 10 year old equated (Biologically and Chronologically 10yo) maturer.
Tell me what pro team does not incorporate a throwing program into the pitchers training? It is not an option, the only option is how far you feel comfortable with throwing. Bullpens are done once between a starters start, nothing replaces a throwing program.
Do you think that youth programs are going to say that 8,9,10 year olds should pitch? When son was young they had coach pitch, you will not find that as often these days, I am sorry we began him at 8, because nothing counts, relly counts until you are loooking for that college schoarship or trying to get ahead in teh organization that drafted you and your shoulder or elbow blew out.
As far as stretching I did not say it was bad, I said over stretching is, once you stretch out to the max, the reversal is a long and sometimes fruitless process. Healthy active very young bodies don't need stretching, seems to me that your son has some issues, if the course of seeing doctors is to correct a problem that has nothing to do what someone else should do.
Sounds like your son is throwing a slurve, that's not a true curve and not a true slider, there is a seperate distinction in both, find out. Don't go touting your son throws CB's when he is not throwing a curveball. Most young players throw the slurve, it's safer.
If he continues to throw with his ARM, good luck.
I don't always agree with YB, but what he says about biological age makes sense, in relation to what I stated aobut the growth plates.
I am not inpressed with complete no game hitters, or win/loss records or ERA's for young pitchers, it means nothing in the long run. Tell us when he's past HS, it has a lot more meaning. Usually you will find those typs of players, you know the harder throwing ones getting everyone out, don't go very far.
Do you think that youth programs are going to say that 8,9,10 year olds should pitch? When son was young they had coach pitch, you will not find that as often these days, I am sorry we began him at 8, because nothing counts, relly counts until you are loooking for that college schoarship or trying to get ahead in teh organization that drafted you and your shoulder or elbow blew out.
As far as stretching I did not say it was bad, I said over stretching is, once you stretch out to the max, the reversal is a long and sometimes fruitless process. Healthy active very young bodies don't need stretching, seems to me that your son has some issues, if the course of seeing doctors is to correct a problem that has nothing to do what someone else should do.
Sounds like your son is throwing a slurve, that's not a true curve and not a true slider, there is a seperate distinction in both, find out. Don't go touting your son throws CB's when he is not throwing a curveball. Most young players throw the slurve, it's safer.
If he continues to throw with his ARM, good luck.
I don't always agree with YB, but what he says about biological age makes sense, in relation to what I stated aobut the growth plates.
I am not inpressed with complete no game hitters, or win/loss records or ERA's for young pitchers, it means nothing in the long run. Tell us when he's past HS, it has a lot more meaning. Usually you will find those typs of players, you know the harder throwing ones getting everyone out, don't go very far.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Tell me what pro team does not incorporate a throwing program into the pitchers training? It is not an option, the only option is how far you feel comfortable with throwing. Bullpens are done once between a starters start, nothing replaces a throwing program.
Do you think that youth programs are going to say that 8,9,10 year olds should pitch? When son was young they had coach pitch, you will not find that as often these days, I am sorry we began him at 8, because nothing counts, relly counts until you are loooking for that college schoarship or trying to get ahead in teh organization that drafted you and your shoulder or elbow blew out.
As far as stretching I did not say it was bad, I said over stretching is, once you stretch out to the max, the reversal is a long and sometimes fruitless process. Healthy active very young bodies don't need stretching, seems to me that your son has some issues, if the course of seeing doctors is to correct a problem that has nothing to do what someone else should do.
Sounds like your son is throwing a slurve, that's not a true curve and not a true slider, there is a seperate distinction in both, find out. Don't go touting your son throws CB's when he is not throwing a curveball. Most young players throw the slurve, it's safer.
If he continues to throw with his ARM, good luck.
I don't always agree with YB, but what he says about biological age makes sense, in relation to what I stated aobut the growth plates.
I am not inpressed with complete no game hitters, or win/loss records or ERA's for young pitchers, it means nothing in the long run. Tell us when he's past HS, it has a lot more meaning. Usually you will find those typs of players, you know the harder throwing ones getting everyone out, don't go very far.
How can you say my son is throwing a "slurve" when You have never even seen it?
Generally speaking TPM, thanks for all of your negative comments, it will be an incentive to prove you wrong some day.
There is a phrase that comes to mind after reading through this thread: opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one. Every kid is going to develop differently and what works for one may not work for another.
I do believe that a young kid should not be "trying" to throw as hard as he can. My son had a natural ability to through hard without really trying. I contribute some of this to the way I taught him to throw and that he swam on a swim team from the time he was 4 to age 11. Yes, I believe swimming help develop balanced strengh on both sides of his body and in his back. I sought instruction for my son when he wanted to start to "TRY" to through hard from a professional to ensure good mechanics in hopes that trying to throw hard would not hurt his arm or shoulder. The pro that I found to help my son always told me that kids up through age 13 or 14 simply needed to learn good mechanics and be comfortable when they throw and not try too hard because it creates tension in the body and tension is not a good thing over time. Smooth constant (non-jerking) motion was our goal. Such techniques should carry a kid through the changes occuring in his body as he matured.
A kids body changes a lot from 10 to 14 or 15 (and again into 18/19) and they really have to learn how to pitch all over again once thier body matures from that younger state. I saw many kids that dominated at age 12 that simply were not that good at 15/16.
I believe too much focus is put on velocity. But that is what gets the attention from pro scouts. If you don't throw over 90 mph you do not get much if any attention from the pros. IMHO that has a trickle down affect all the way into little league. Sure, if you throw hard in little league you are going to dominate. My experience is that does not translate into later success. I saw many arms drop by the way side on the way to the next level.
I do believe that a young kid should not be "trying" to throw as hard as he can. My son had a natural ability to through hard without really trying. I contribute some of this to the way I taught him to throw and that he swam on a swim team from the time he was 4 to age 11. Yes, I believe swimming help develop balanced strengh on both sides of his body and in his back. I sought instruction for my son when he wanted to start to "TRY" to through hard from a professional to ensure good mechanics in hopes that trying to throw hard would not hurt his arm or shoulder. The pro that I found to help my son always told me that kids up through age 13 or 14 simply needed to learn good mechanics and be comfortable when they throw and not try too hard because it creates tension in the body and tension is not a good thing over time. Smooth constant (non-jerking) motion was our goal. Such techniques should carry a kid through the changes occuring in his body as he matured.
A kids body changes a lot from 10 to 14 or 15 (and again into 18/19) and they really have to learn how to pitch all over again once thier body matures from that younger state. I saw many kids that dominated at age 12 that simply were not that good at 15/16.
I believe too much focus is put on velocity. But that is what gets the attention from pro scouts. If you don't throw over 90 mph you do not get much if any attention from the pros. IMHO that has a trickle down affect all the way into little league. Sure, if you throw hard in little league you are going to dominate. My experience is that does not translate into later success. I saw many arms drop by the way side on the way to the next level.
I did a lot wrong when I was "working" with my son and his pitching starting at about age 8-9 years old. I learned about growth plates a few years later. I taught him to throw as hard as he could --- had a game we called "burnout" to see whether he or I would wear out or mess up first. While he always had excellent velocity, he liked to throw curve balls at a young age too. Knowing it was harmful if not thrown properly and knowing he would throw it when I wasn't around, I taught him the proper CB mechanics and he developed a very good 12/6 curve when he was about 10-11. He pitched and caught in HS and college and never developed any arm problems. He "cruised" at however hard he could throw. HOWEVER, if your son follows my son's routine of throwing as hard as he can at a young age and throwing curve balls before he's allowed to watch PG13 movies, ODDS are he will never pitch in HS or college and if he does pitch in HS he will probably have Tommy John's surgery before he graduates high school.
Fungo
HOWEVER, if your son follows my son's routine of throwing as hard as he can at a young age and throwing curve balls before he's allowed to watch PG13 movies, ODDS are he will never pitch in HS or college and if he does pitch in HS he will probably have Tommy John's surgery before he graduates high school.Fungo
Fungo,
I don't know if that last sentence was tongue in cheek, partially tongue in cheek, or exactly what you meant to say.
IMO, following the path you took with your son might increase the risk a bit, but there's no way to say with any individual kid that they'll probably (i.e. ODDS are) have TJ before graduating HS. There's way too many variables involved and no way to tell for certain how any approach is going to work for any kid. Once again, JMO.
I don't know if that last sentence was tongue in cheek, partially tongue in cheek, or exactly what you meant to say.
IMO, following the path you took with your son might increase the risk a bit, but there's no way to say with any individual kid that they'll probably (i.e. ODDS are) have TJ before graduating HS. There's way too many variables involved and no way to tell for certain how any approach is going to work for any kid. Once again, JMO.
I do like what the various little league organizations have done to curb over-pitching in young kids. That said, I do think there is a harmful trend in todays society to baby kids arms to the point of them having arm pain when they do throw because they just do not throw enough to have a properly conditioned arm.- they shouldn't even be pitching at all if thats the case!
For example- look at the athleticism drills hammered into youth football players- they do it over and over again until they literally hurt all over. After a few weeks of this training the pain goes away and they build the hardened strength and stamina to compete without risk of fatal injury. Now certainly I am not suggesting this for baseball players- especially pitchers, but if kids do not learn how to throw with decent velocity and keep up that regiment through high school then they are going to have poorly conditioned arms that fatigue easily because they are weak which may lead to tears that lead up to injury or surgery.
I do not teach nor believe that a young kid should go out and throw his "hardest" in games to win, but that he should go out and put some effort into it and maintain a decent velocity without falling into the trap of trying to place it with a slower velocity. As he does this he will have a better conditioned arm and more repeatable mechanics. Veleocity should always be gauged within the context of the thrower and the situation. When little league coaches look for "pitchers", one of the main ingredients is "velocity". Lets be honest, velocity, even at an early age, is what draws those kids into being pitchers by coaches and parents who see this as compared with the other players. Velocity at an early age usually means that kid has some degree of natural talent and ability coupled to some degree with genetic gifts. It also means that the kids throwing a little harder than others have more refined mechanics.
For example- look at the athleticism drills hammered into youth football players- they do it over and over again until they literally hurt all over. After a few weeks of this training the pain goes away and they build the hardened strength and stamina to compete without risk of fatal injury. Now certainly I am not suggesting this for baseball players- especially pitchers, but if kids do not learn how to throw with decent velocity and keep up that regiment through high school then they are going to have poorly conditioned arms that fatigue easily because they are weak which may lead to tears that lead up to injury or surgery.
I do not teach nor believe that a young kid should go out and throw his "hardest" in games to win, but that he should go out and put some effort into it and maintain a decent velocity without falling into the trap of trying to place it with a slower velocity. As he does this he will have a better conditioned arm and more repeatable mechanics. Veleocity should always be gauged within the context of the thrower and the situation. When little league coaches look for "pitchers", one of the main ingredients is "velocity". Lets be honest, velocity, even at an early age, is what draws those kids into being pitchers by coaches and parents who see this as compared with the other players. Velocity at an early age usually means that kid has some degree of natural talent and ability coupled to some degree with genetic gifts. It also means that the kids throwing a little harder than others have more refined mechanics.
GBM, I will not question whether or not what you are doing for and with your son is good or bad or whether it is best for him or not. I simply don't know your son or your situation. I will say that you speak with a lot of confidence that I don't think is well founded yet. Your son is only 14, so, quite frankly, you really don't know whether it will work in the long run or not. Yet you still talk like what you have done with him is what should be done.
Also, around here, mid 70's for a 14 year old is fairly common. Summer before my son's freshman year, he was throwing 82. Another kid at 13 and 14 was considered a hard thrower and threw about as hard as my son. At the same showcase between freshman and sophomore years, my son threw 86 and this kid threw 74. Everyone thought that kid had great mechanics. You really just don't ever know.
Another personal story. My son was like yours in that through 14 years old, he never got sore, seemingly never got tired. Once he turned 15 and started throwing in the mid 80's, he did start getting sore and had some minor elbow issues. I believe that part of that was a result of his velocity and quite frankly, part of it was from throwing too many curveballs. We cut WAY back on the CB's this summer and he has been fine - Arm wise and effectiveness wise. All this has nothing to do with size either. He has always been small for his age. Currently, he is 5'9" about 170 lbs. Has hit as high as 87 with his fastball and usually cruises between 84 and 86. He is going into his junior year.
I also think you need to take into account the competition your son faces. Sounds like he is playing rec league ball. If my son were playing there, he would have some no hitters and a ton of shut outs. He plays the highest level of competition available.
Anyway, bottom line is, I really don't think your son is old enough or experienced enough to know for sure whether what you are doing is going to work or not. Just don't think you should be so adamant about your theories until they can either be proven or disproven over time. There are a lot of people here who have seen much more than you. There are plenty of people here whose son's have made it to a much higher level than yours. You should really take into consideration what they say.
Also, around here, mid 70's for a 14 year old is fairly common. Summer before my son's freshman year, he was throwing 82. Another kid at 13 and 14 was considered a hard thrower and threw about as hard as my son. At the same showcase between freshman and sophomore years, my son threw 86 and this kid threw 74. Everyone thought that kid had great mechanics. You really just don't ever know.
Another personal story. My son was like yours in that through 14 years old, he never got sore, seemingly never got tired. Once he turned 15 and started throwing in the mid 80's, he did start getting sore and had some minor elbow issues. I believe that part of that was a result of his velocity and quite frankly, part of it was from throwing too many curveballs. We cut WAY back on the CB's this summer and he has been fine - Arm wise and effectiveness wise. All this has nothing to do with size either. He has always been small for his age. Currently, he is 5'9" about 170 lbs. Has hit as high as 87 with his fastball and usually cruises between 84 and 86. He is going into his junior year.
I also think you need to take into account the competition your son faces. Sounds like he is playing rec league ball. If my son were playing there, he would have some no hitters and a ton of shut outs. He plays the highest level of competition available.
Anyway, bottom line is, I really don't think your son is old enough or experienced enough to know for sure whether what you are doing is going to work or not. Just don't think you should be so adamant about your theories until they can either be proven or disproven over time. There are a lot of people here who have seen much more than you. There are plenty of people here whose son's have made it to a much higher level than yours. You should really take into consideration what they say.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
GBM, I will not question whether or not what you are doing for and with your son is good or bad or whether it is best for him or not. I simply don't know your son or your situation. I will say that you speak with a lot of confidence that I don't think is well founded yet. Your son is only 14, so, quite frankly, you really don't know whether it will work in the long run or not. Yet you still talk like what you have done with him is what should be done.
I think that fairly sums it up for me too.
You said a college coach said your son's CB looked like a slider, you said it was a curve ball, well a curve ball is a curve ball and a slider is a slider. What was it that day? How about some video?
You know what, who really cares what anyone does at 14 other than the parent? I am sure you wouldn't care if I went into detail what son did at 14, how dominate he was, how hard he threw, it doesn't matter, who cares, heck I don't even care!
IMHO: Velocity at age 10 isn't important.
Learn how to repeat delivery, throw fastballs to location, stay balanced and don't get hurt.
If he's throwing 56 as a 10U, he's fine velocity wise. The rest of it (STAY HEALTHY) is most important.
My son once threw 146 pitches in a LL All Star game as a 10U. The game was delayed over an hour for a monsoon storm, after he took a line drive off his shin, which swelled up mightily while we waited out the rain delay. He went back out and struggled. They brought him out two days later and couldn't understand why he was struggling.
Don't let this happen to you!
Fortunately he's stayed healthy and like others who have posted here, gets tired much quicker now than he did when he was young and either walking or striking out every hitter (sadly, the K's & BB's were about equal at that age).
He just finished his second varsity season as a sophomore and most likely is the #1 pitcher at his 5A-I HS he next two years. Now I go ballistic around 105 pitches...
Learn how to repeat delivery, throw fastballs to location, stay balanced and don't get hurt.
If he's throwing 56 as a 10U, he's fine velocity wise. The rest of it (STAY HEALTHY) is most important.
My son once threw 146 pitches in a LL All Star game as a 10U. The game was delayed over an hour for a monsoon storm, after he took a line drive off his shin, which swelled up mightily while we waited out the rain delay. He went back out and struggled. They brought him out two days later and couldn't understand why he was struggling.
Don't let this happen to you!
Fortunately he's stayed healthy and like others who have posted here, gets tired much quicker now than he did when he was young and either walking or striking out every hitter (sadly, the K's & BB's were about equal at that age).
He just finished his second varsity season as a sophomore and most likely is the #1 pitcher at his 5A-I HS he next two years. Now I go ballistic around 105 pitches...
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
GBM, I will not question whether or not what you are doing for and with your son is good or bad or whether it is best for him or not. I simply don't know your son or your situation. I will say that you speak with a lot of confidence that I don't think is well founded yet. Your son is only 14, so, quite frankly, you really don't know whether it will work in the long run or not. Yet you still talk like what you have done with him is what should be done.
Also, around here, mid 70's for a 14 year old is fairly common. Summer before my son's freshman year, he was throwing 82. Another kid at 13 and 14 was considered a hard thrower and threw about as hard as my son. At the same showcase between freshman and sophomore years, my son threw 86 and this kid threw 74. Everyone thought that kid had great mechanics. You really just don't ever know.
Another personal story. My son was like yours in that through 14 years old, he never got sore, seemingly never got tired. Once he turned 15 and started throwing in the mid 80's, he did start getting sore and had some minor elbow issues. I believe that part of that was a result of his velocity and quite frankly, part of it was from throwing too many curveballs. We cut WAY back on the CB's this summer and he has been fine - Arm wise and effectiveness wise. All this has nothing to do with size either. He has always been small for his age. Currently, he is 5'9" about 170 lbs. Has hit as high as 87 with his fastball and usually cruises between 84 and 86. He is going into his junior year.
I also think you need to take into account the competition your son faces. Sounds like he is playing rec league ball. If my son were playing there, he would have some no hitters and a ton of shut outs. He plays the highest level of competition available.
Anyway, bottom line is, I really don't think your son is old enough or experienced enough to know for sure whether what you are doing is going to work or not. Just don't think you should be so adamant about your theories until they can either be proven or disproven over time. There are a lot of people here who have seen much more than you. There are plenty of people here whose son's have made it to a much higher level than yours. You should really take into consideration what they say.
Like I said many times- What I have taught my son about pounding the strike zone with decent velocity works. Is that bad advice? Is that not what every professional ball cliub teaches? Hello? Sorry but I do not see where the advice I have given is backwoods redneck material! Like I also said before, My son sits in games in the mid seventies, which by most standards that I can tell from reading through the backlog here on the HSBBweb is above average for his age. No, he isn't one of the those phenom "heat" guys. I never said he was. I even said that others in his travel league can throw harder. That said, he has one of the best commands of the strike zone in his travel league.
So you think we play in a weak league against sub-par talent? How can you know? We play some of the most talented ball for our area. Two years ago the little league team (Cal-Ripken) that my son plays against in travel ball went to the Cal-Ripken world series. These are the type of caliber kids we are seeing in most games. Those kids from that team beat everyone out in the entire Northwest to represent the northwest in the Cal-Ripken world series back east. This year our kids that we play with and against played for the baseball team Idaho that went to Peoria AZ for the USA baseball west tournament. They were seeded 11th out of 35 teams after pool play, most of which were from California. The top thrower, from Team Idaho at that tournament was clocked throwing 84. We face this kid all the time along with others throwing well also.
My son stopped playing rec ball 2 years ago because he was not challenged enough.
I don't really want to get in a pis_sen contest, that is not my intent. I gave the advice and points I made and I am stickin by it.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by bballman:
GBM, I will not question whether or not what you are doing for and with your son is good or bad or whether it is best for him or not. I simply don't know your son or your situation. I will say that you speak with a lot of confidence that I don't think is well founded yet. Your son is only 14, so, quite frankly, you really don't know whether it will work in the long run or not. Yet you still talk like what you have done with him is what should be done.
I think that fairly sums it up for me too.
You said a college coach said your son's CB looked like a slider, you said it was a curve ball, well a curve ball is a curve ball and a slider is a slider. What was it that day? How about some video?
You know what, who really cares what anyone does at 14 other than the parent? I am sure you wouldn't care if I went into detail what son did at 14, how dominate he was, how hard he threw, it doesn't matter, who cares, heck I don't even care!
