Son just returned from his 1st overnight camp...great experience at a AAA Facility. They did some testing with the kids, and he threw 56 mph at age 10. Is that a decent speed for his age?
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At the age of 10 the young man should be concentrating on control and location---the velocity will come
It isn't bad, it isn't great. They change so much over the next couple years that there's no way to tell at this point.
As far "the velocity will come" that isn't always true and some kids will benefit from working on developing their velocity through long toss, etc.
I'm just not sure when it makes sense to start working on it. Some will tell you to start now, some will tell you to wait until he's much more physically mature.
We have a kid in our area who pitched in the LLWS and was hitting 74 at 12yo. Last time I heard at 18yo he was topping out at 86, seldom threw over 84 and was still a very good pitcher who will be pitching for an Ivy league school. A few other kids from that district who weren't throwing as hard at 12 now throw a lot harder and have major D1 scholarships. One of them was also a fifth round draft choice.
What's the moral of that story?
1. There's no guarantee that throwing hard at 12 will mean throwing hard at 18.
2. A good pitcher can pitch in college without throwing 90, especially if he has good grades.
3. Throwing 90+ will get you noticed.
As far "the velocity will come" that isn't always true and some kids will benefit from working on developing their velocity through long toss, etc.
I'm just not sure when it makes sense to start working on it. Some will tell you to start now, some will tell you to wait until he's much more physically mature.
We have a kid in our area who pitched in the LLWS and was hitting 74 at 12yo. Last time I heard at 18yo he was topping out at 86, seldom threw over 84 and was still a very good pitcher who will be pitching for an Ivy league school. A few other kids from that district who weren't throwing as hard at 12 now throw a lot harder and have major D1 scholarships. One of them was also a fifth round draft choice.
What's the moral of that story?
1. There's no guarantee that throwing hard at 12 will mean throwing hard at 18.
2. A good pitcher can pitch in college without throwing 90, especially if he has good grades.
3. Throwing 90+ will get you noticed.
Great thoughts by CADad and TRhit.
I would only add to their comments that your son is just 10 years old right now, and has a big amount of development to do physically and mentally. What he throws right now really doesn't matter, or measure much at all how he will project later on.
Just continue to teach proper conditioning habits and fundamentals for him to eventually grow into.
Stu
I would only add to their comments that your son is just 10 years old right now, and has a big amount of development to do physically and mentally. What he throws right now really doesn't matter, or measure much at all how he will project later on.
Just continue to teach proper conditioning habits and fundamentals for him to eventually grow into.
Stu
It doesn't matter. Every kid will grow differently. It matters once he gets into HS.
Keep it simple and keep it fun. No need to worry about Stalker readings at 10.
quote:Originally posted by turnin2:
Son just returned from his 1st overnight camp...great experience at a AAA Facility. They did some testing with the kids, and he threw 56 mph at age 10. Is that a decent speed for his age?
Yea, that's decent for his age, but a lot can change over the years. Yes it is good he is throwing with decent velocity at a young age but I have seen so many kids throw through the years and a lot changes. I remember being so happy when my kid first started pitching and also had decent velocity but was also worried about his mechanics the first two years (he never got sideways when he pitched the first year- it was all arm). Then over the following years he just naturally grew and changed his mechanics and now pitches better.
My son was pretty much the same velocity as your son at 10 (54-56). It is perfectly fine to wonder about velocity even at his age- after all, I too was worried about it at that age just as I am still worried about it the same now (4 years later). If everything goes well, meaning, that he grows, has good mechanics and continues to improve, can pitch without joint pain, then he will blossom into a good pitcher with continued decent velocity. Really watch for where pain occurs in the young arm. Some slight tricep and bicep pain from time to time is ok, just really watch for kid complaining of elbow or shoulder joint pain- it is a signe that mechanics are off somewhere and can lead to lower velocity or a short pitching career.
As I remeber, here are my sons velocity since 10-
10 yrs. 54-56mph
11 yrs. 59-63mph
12 yrs. 65-68mph
13 yrs. 69-72mph
14 yrs. 74-79mph
quote:
Originally posted by turnin2:
Son just returned from his 1st overnight camp...great experience at a AAA Facility. They did some testing with the kids, and he threw 56 mph at age 10. Is that a decent speed for his age?
Maybe it's me but I can't honestly see why gunning a kid at 10yrs old is even being done! Are you kidding?
Right now he should be learning the basics of baseball and more importantly - just having fun!
The next thing he should learn if he's going to be a pitcher are pitching mechanics. Note that I did not say how to throw hard. HOW to pitch.
I'm sorry but this just blows my mind that emphasis are put on velocity for a kid this young.
YGD
My top 3 tips for 10yo:
1. Work on technique.
2. Work on learning every grip - don't have to use them in a game.
3. Don't pitch more than 2-3 innings per game.
(Radar guns won't hurt you)
1. Work on technique.
2. Work on learning every grip - don't have to use them in a game.
3. Don't pitch more than 2-3 innings per game.
(Radar guns won't hurt you)
Alright, guess I should have been more specific in the reason for my question. Truthfully I could care less how hard he throws according to Stalker or Jugs or anything else. They said they did the velocity test to show the kids how technique can improve results, and so the kid could see their improvements. I only wondered because several coaches commented in surprise "he"s only 10?" So curiosity stirred and I hoped somebody like the person a few posts up could give some insight on their kid. I'm not making a plan like Bryce Harper is in the next room! I know how he does in our local league and Super Series and wanted to see how other kids his age do. He does have very good mechanics, I've coaches HS ball long enough to know kids change and development rates change, again OTHER people seemed to be impressed, and it made me wonder, maybe even more so when he threw harder than several older kids, if that was good for his age. Thanks for the responses.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by turnin2:
They said they did the velocity test to show the kids how technique can improve results, and so the kid could see their improvements.
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This would be much more plausible in why he was timed and would be a great learning tool.
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He does have very good mechanics
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In the years that I've been involved in baseball I can honestly say that Ive never seen a 10yr old that had "very good" mechanics. I'm not trying to split hairs here but 99.9% of kids this age are just learning the how-to of pitching, and that's ok. No 10yr old is polished with mechanics.
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Dad, I too had a son at age 10 who seemed to throw harder than other kids his age. When I noticed this there were 2 things very obvious to me: 1 - his litle league coach had not clue about how to teach pitching to my son and 2 - I needed to find some kind of pitching videos to teach him the proper way to pitch.
You know how hard he throws now so put it aside and find someone (if not yourself) who can teach him the finer things about pitching. Velocity at this age IMO should not be any focus at all.
Good luck.
Originally posted by turnin2:
They said they did the velocity test to show the kids how technique can improve results, and so the kid could see their improvements.
________________________________________________
This would be much more plausible in why he was timed and would be a great learning tool.
________________________________________________
He does have very good mechanics
________________________________________________
In the years that I've been involved in baseball I can honestly say that Ive never seen a 10yr old that had "very good" mechanics. I'm not trying to split hairs here but 99.9% of kids this age are just learning the how-to of pitching, and that's ok. No 10yr old is polished with mechanics.
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Dad, I too had a son at age 10 who seemed to throw harder than other kids his age. When I noticed this there were 2 things very obvious to me: 1 - his litle league coach had not clue about how to teach pitching to my son and 2 - I needed to find some kind of pitching videos to teach him the proper way to pitch.
You know how hard he throws now so put it aside and find someone (if not yourself) who can teach him the finer things about pitching. Velocity at this age IMO should not be any focus at all.
Good luck.
My son was timed at a camp when he was 10 or 11, and was in the low to mid 60s. He doesn't pitch now, so I can't extrapolate.
Having watched kids go from 10 to 16, I can say it is very hard to predict which ones will continue to improve over the years and which will be late bloomers. Hitting is a great thing to watch - many of the ball smashers at 12 struggle hitting the curve ball at 15, for instance, so the batting order gets shaken up.
Fun to watch - every year is an adventure. Enjoy!
Having watched kids go from 10 to 16, I can say it is very hard to predict which ones will continue to improve over the years and which will be late bloomers. Hitting is a great thing to watch - many of the ball smashers at 12 struggle hitting the curve ball at 15, for instance, so the batting order gets shaken up.
Fun to watch - every year is an adventure. Enjoy!
Gingerbreadman...
I want you and this other gentleman to know that I am not here by any means to blast or ridicule anyone. I promise. Though I have given my opinion on the subject and it may have not come across politically correct, I gave it only because of the things I have seen and experienced over the years when dealing when young kids who want to pitch.
You've heard the saying "even a blind squirrel finds a nut here and there"...well..your "teaching" of just throwing harder if he's struggling will help him find the strike zone is laughable. But hey, if it worked for your son I tip my hat to you. What you should have taught him is to make the proper adjustment with his mechanics on the mound. That is where a pitcher begins to find the zone again.
What age is your son now? I'm curious. If he has college pitching coaches and scouts telling him that he will be a good pitcher some day then I'd guess he is in HS? Working hard and refining his mechanics are 2 of the most important ingredients he can do if he wants to pitch past HS. I speak from experience.
Again, I disagree with your statement "No matter what a lot of people say, always focus on maintaing good velocity when he pitches". Why? Because as your and Turnin2's sons get older they (and you) will realize that velocity is not the only thing to pitching and getting batters out. Developing "wrinkles" with a 2nd and 3rd pitch will be just as important. They accentuate the FB.
Teach them how to be consistent on their mechanics and their velocity should never be a question.
My son is a pitcher in college and even he will tell you than making an adjustment with his mechanics during a game himself is what helps keep him on track and successful, not throwing harder.
Videoing is not a bad idea. I'd recommend that you also do it while practicing on mechanics so that you will have a reference point after a game to show where a breakdown may have occurred.
I want you and this other gentleman to know that I am not here by any means to blast or ridicule anyone. I promise. Though I have given my opinion on the subject and it may have not come across politically correct, I gave it only because of the things I have seen and experienced over the years when dealing when young kids who want to pitch.
You've heard the saying "even a blind squirrel finds a nut here and there"...well..your "teaching" of just throwing harder if he's struggling will help him find the strike zone is laughable. But hey, if it worked for your son I tip my hat to you. What you should have taught him is to make the proper adjustment with his mechanics on the mound. That is where a pitcher begins to find the zone again.
What age is your son now? I'm curious. If he has college pitching coaches and scouts telling him that he will be a good pitcher some day then I'd guess he is in HS? Working hard and refining his mechanics are 2 of the most important ingredients he can do if he wants to pitch past HS. I speak from experience.
Again, I disagree with your statement "No matter what a lot of people say, always focus on maintaing good velocity when he pitches". Why? Because as your and Turnin2's sons get older they (and you) will realize that velocity is not the only thing to pitching and getting batters out. Developing "wrinkles" with a 2nd and 3rd pitch will be just as important. They accentuate the FB.
Teach them how to be consistent on their mechanics and their velocity should never be a question.
My son is a pitcher in college and even he will tell you than making an adjustment with his mechanics during a game himself is what helps keep him on track and successful, not throwing harder.
Videoing is not a bad idea. I'd recommend that you also do it while practicing on mechanics so that you will have a reference point after a game to show where a breakdown may have occurred.
Again just trying to see what some other kids his age are doing. As for myself I was a successful 2-way player in HS and the D2 level, had some pro-ball interest, life choices changed that. I've coached HS for 13 years and have had some very successful players. At 10 he does have good mechanics, but I will say "what are good mechanics?" He uses his lower body well, leads with his front hip, has a good arm slot, extends well, throws in front of front leg...does he need work, of course! He's 10! Many would say Lincecum doesn't have good mechanics, nor the kid at UCLA, but mechanics, whether hitting or pitching, are generally unique to the individual due to their strengths.
Younggundad,
Just to clarify a little bit. When son was 10 the notion was around the league (and I am sure it is the same everywhere) was that when you are starting to struggle, because of nerves or who knows, to slow down and lob a strike in there. From that logic I have seen way too many kids develop slow "placement" strikes right down the gut that ends up getting hammered. I took a different approach realizing that often times a young pitcher is too worried about placement versus throwing hard. We instead took the road of throwing a little harder forces the body to refine mechanics and repeat the mechanics more efficiently with a more consistant arm path and release point. All I can say is it works- at least for my son. It works for batting also. When son struggles hitting i take him out and throw wiffle balls as hard as I can at him which I believe forces him to cut out all of the wierd "wiggles" and "glitches" out of the motion forcing him to have a more efficient swing path.
As for my son, he is 14 years old and will be a freshman in HS in the fall. He already has developed both a change-up and breaking ball. He has pitched well because of the great movement he gets on all three of his pitches. The coaches at the camps have said- "has great arm side run", and "has a live arm" on the papers. There are others his age that throw harder around where we play but none have as great clutch and control as he has when it counts. Personally i believe it comes from repeating a more consistant velocity throughout games.
I have also taught son to throw breaking ball and CU with a high level of velocity- never fall into the trap of trying to slow down and place those pitches. If the breaking ball doesn;t break as much because it is faster doesn't mean it isn't a good pitch, but perhaps it is a greater pitch when a high level of velocity is maintained and he can sell the arm motion better and get deeper before the ball breaks hard..
Just to clarify a little bit. When son was 10 the notion was around the league (and I am sure it is the same everywhere) was that when you are starting to struggle, because of nerves or who knows, to slow down and lob a strike in there. From that logic I have seen way too many kids develop slow "placement" strikes right down the gut that ends up getting hammered. I took a different approach realizing that often times a young pitcher is too worried about placement versus throwing hard. We instead took the road of throwing a little harder forces the body to refine mechanics and repeat the mechanics more efficiently with a more consistant arm path and release point. All I can say is it works- at least for my son. It works for batting also. When son struggles hitting i take him out and throw wiffle balls as hard as I can at him which I believe forces him to cut out all of the wierd "wiggles" and "glitches" out of the motion forcing him to have a more efficient swing path.
As for my son, he is 14 years old and will be a freshman in HS in the fall. He already has developed both a change-up and breaking ball. He has pitched well because of the great movement he gets on all three of his pitches. The coaches at the camps have said- "has great arm side run", and "has a live arm" on the papers. There are others his age that throw harder around where we play but none have as great clutch and control as he has when it counts. Personally i believe it comes from repeating a more consistant velocity throughout games.
I have also taught son to throw breaking ball and CU with a high level of velocity- never fall into the trap of trying to slow down and place those pitches. If the breaking ball doesn;t break as much because it is faster doesn't mean it isn't a good pitch, but perhaps it is a greater pitch when a high level of velocity is maintained and he can sell the arm motion better and get deeper before the ball breaks hard..
I give up.
Good luck to both of you.
YGD
Good luck to both of you.
YGD
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
I give up.
Good luck to both of you.
YGD
turnin2,
My advice to you is to be very careful of certain advice and parental "pitching techniques" given on a message board.
At 10 there is only one thing that you should be concerned with your player, developing and maintaining good mechanics and placement of the fast ball. He can begin experimenting with the CU as his off speed pitch, I suggest no curveballs to be thrown in games until 14,15.
Despite what's written here, the harder a young pitcher throws the more problems he will develop later on. In fact, IMO, the later you start your player pitching, the better off he will be. Keep it simple as suggested and have fun.
Research has proven that the hardest pitch on an arm is the fastball, not the curve-ball. There is nothing wrong with pitching at an early age or throwing hard at an early age. It is true that some kids should wait or limit their pitching- perhaps the few minority who have such bad mechanics that joint pain is persistant from little league all through HS. For them it don't matter when they start pitching- they will always have problems. My son knows a kid who always asks him if his arm hurts after pitching because his arm hurts. My son has been pitching for a few years longer than the other kid- not that it has anything to do with it, just stating the fact that starting pitching at an early age has nothing to do with arm problems later on. That philosophy is complete bull#@%$ if you ask me. If a young kid can pitch without joint and arm pain and doesn't over-pitch he will develop a much stronger and healthier arm by the time he gets to HS- just my opinion, but I am sticking by it.
Ok. I'm picking my flag up off the ground to chime in once more.
I don't think anyone is saying throwing hard is a bad thing nor that pitching at an early age is either. It's just that a Dad's focus for a young pitcher should be on proper mechanics, having fun, and one more I will add...making sure your son is not being over-used and/or "fatigued". Overuse of a young arm is a killer on arms. Thus the reasoning behind why the LL has a pitch count in place now. Kudos to them.
Don't believe me on fatigue? Ever heard of Dr. James Andrews? Read this: Fatigue the key risk
And one last thing. Your comment "if a young kid can pitch without joint and arm pain and doesn't over-pitch he will develop a much stronger and healthier arm" isn't exactly correct. A good long-toss program, various band work, and arm conditioning will develop a healthier arm. I know it may be semantics but I wanted to clarify that point.
If both of you are coaching your sons, then Im preaching to the choir about over-using your son in a season or worse...a year. But some over-zealous coaches see a kid who throws hard and next thing you know he's tossing the egg more than the others and helping get out of a pinch in a close game after tossing 65 pitches 2 nights before.
I don't think anyone is saying throwing hard is a bad thing nor that pitching at an early age is either. It's just that a Dad's focus for a young pitcher should be on proper mechanics, having fun, and one more I will add...making sure your son is not being over-used and/or "fatigued". Overuse of a young arm is a killer on arms. Thus the reasoning behind why the LL has a pitch count in place now. Kudos to them.
Don't believe me on fatigue? Ever heard of Dr. James Andrews? Read this: Fatigue the key risk
And one last thing. Your comment "if a young kid can pitch without joint and arm pain and doesn't over-pitch he will develop a much stronger and healthier arm" isn't exactly correct. A good long-toss program, various band work, and arm conditioning will develop a healthier arm. I know it may be semantics but I wanted to clarify that point.
If both of you are coaching your sons, then Im preaching to the choir about over-using your son in a season or worse...a year. But some over-zealous coaches see a kid who throws hard and next thing you know he's tossing the egg more than the others and helping get out of a pinch in a close game after tossing 65 pitches 2 nights before.
All good thoughts. I promise you as a player who was overpitched in high school, I am very aware as to how much my son, or any player I coach is throwing.
Dr. James Andrews has some great reads, as do Orel Hershiser, Tom House, and many other of the NPA which I am a member of.
Here again, I was just trying to see where his velocity stands compared to kids his age...boys I have a Jugs and Bushnell at school, never once put them on him. Some good thoughts and opinions though.
Dr. James Andrews has some great reads, as do Orel Hershiser, Tom House, and many other of the NPA which I am a member of.
Here again, I was just trying to see where his velocity stands compared to kids his age...boys I have a Jugs and Bushnell at school, never once put them on him. Some good thoughts and opinions though.
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
Ok. I'm picking my flag up off the ground to chime in once more.
I don't think anyone is saying throwing hard is a bad thing nor that pitching at an early age is either. It's just that a Dad's focus for a young pitcher should be on proper mechanics, having fun, and one more I will add...making sure your son is not being over-used and/or "fatigued". Overuse of a young arm is a killer on arms. Thus the reasoning behind why the LL has a pitch count in place now. Kudos to them.
Don't believe me on fatigue? Ever heard of Dr. James Andrews? Read this: Fatigue the key risk
And one last thing. Your comment "if a young kid can pitch without joint and arm pain and doesn't over-pitch he will develop a much stronger and healthier arm" isn't exactly correct. A good long-toss program, various band work, and arm conditioning will develop a healthier arm. I know it may be semantics but I wanted to clarify that point.
If both of you are coaching your sons, then Im preaching to the choir about over-using your son in a season or worse...a year. But some over-zealous coaches see a kid who throws hard and next thing you know he's tossing the egg more than the others and helping get out of a pinch in a close game after tossing 65 pitches 2 nights before.
I totally agree with you on the whole fatigue issue. I took my kid off a team and put him on another because they got into the habit of pitching him a little too much in the "pinch". I also agree that conditioning the arm through various excersize will develop a healthy arm. I know that throwing often (not pitching, but just throwing) is one of the greatest things for arm health. I also know through many trips to the chiropractor that stretching out the leg muscles around the pelvis area in a growing boy is vital to the torque generated from batting, running, jumping and pitching. It is probably one of the most overlooked areas in growing boys- just how tight the muscles in the legs are which effects their range of motion.
After the last trip to the physical therapist where he had to push his pelvis back into place through his stomach (playing basketball), my son always takes about 5-10 minutes stretching the muscles that support the lower back and pelvis.
It's fine as far as his age. There may be kids that throw harder but if your kid is throwing strikes with that speed he will be effective.
Like others have said mechanics are much more important. Concentrating on that now and getting him fundamentally correct will pay much more in dividends than worrying about velocity now. Getting him into the habit of throwing correctly now will save him a lot of pain and worry later on when altering his mechanics may be a lot harder.
Like others have said mechanics are much more important. Concentrating on that now and getting him fundamentally correct will pay much more in dividends than worrying about velocity now. Getting him into the habit of throwing correctly now will save him a lot of pain and worry later on when altering his mechanics may be a lot harder.
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Yes there is. Here is why. First of all, the power generated to throw a high velo fastball comes from the lower half and core not the top half. It's not about the arm. The arm goes for the ride. Young pitchers do not have the lower body or core conditioned to throw greater velocity than the arm is capable of. That takes years and years to develop. That's why most young pitchers hurt, even with good mechanics they often throw with their upper body. Long toss (something that you told us once you don't beleive in) provides conditioning for the shoulder to throw farther, not necessarily harder and provides the conditioning for the muscles and joints to support the added stress placed on those muscles used.
The young pitcher should be taught to locate his pitches using what is comfortable for him and proper arm, body mechanics and velocity should not be paid attention to until he begins a full workout and conditioning program, which 10 year olds don't need unless they spend most of their time on the couch, the other stuff comes later on when their bodies develop and mature, naturally, then you can go to work on the velocity. Of course over use can affect injuries sooner than later. So can making young bodies work hard at weight training.
As far as not pitching until older, there are many that say that not until the growth plates are almost closed is the safer time to begin pitching from the mound. We don't have crystal balls to see that, so some make a comfortable guess at when that might be, around 11-12. This was a discussion my son had with a top shoulder specialist in the country. BTW his problem was due to an enlarged cortacoid bone, causing impingement causing tendinitous very rare, and often seen as the pitcher becomes fully grown.
The curveball is a bad pitch because young pitchers use it to be successful, and very few can throw a CB correctly. I said not to begin using it until 14 and I meant in game situations. By this time the pitcher should be relying on his FB, with CU for his breaking pitch for 85-90% of his pitches thrown, not the other way around. All pitches should come from the same slot as well. You told us once he has different arm slots for each pitch. Young hitter shave no clue what that is, smarter and older ones do.
Another thing, the constant stretching of young muscles is dangerous, because you have no idea what your son's actual frame will be like. They become so stretched they then are unable to support the bones and hold them into place.
You gave a situation where your son knows one kid that his arm hurt, well I know of dozens that gave up pitching because their arm hurt, because someone thought that they would be better off throwing HARDER than they should when they were young.
One more thing, CU and CB that are most effective are those that appear to come out of the arm just like the FB, the grip is the key, not slowing down arm speed. The purpose is to throw the hitter off balance in change in speeds. If you are teaching your son to maintain approximately the same speed, as he meets smarter pitchers no matter where the break is, they will know better and be able to figure it out in no time, trust me on this one. If you are preparing your son this way for his future, it ain't going to work. JMO.
You have come up with some unconventional ways in developing a pitcher, that's ok, it's your son and you can do what you feel is best for him, he's 14 hasn't proven that he will be healthy in future years, then you can come back and let us know, until then you shouldn't give unproven advice on a message board when you know nothing about the pitcher the parent is telling us about. He may be less physically immature than your son was at that age, smaller, taller, shorter arm, longer arm, shorter or longer legged, etc. That makes a big differnce in how hard a young player can actually throw or not throw until he develops into a man's body.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
There is nothing wrong with pitching at an early age or throwing hard at an early age.
Yes there is. Here is why. First of all, the power generated to throw a high velo fastball comes from the lower half and core not the top half. It's not about the arm. The arm goes for the ride. Young pitchers do not have the lower body or core conditioned to throw greater velocity than the arm is capable of. That takes years and years to develop. That's why most young pitchers hurt, even with good mechanics they often throw with their upper body. Long toss (something that you told us once you don't beleive in) provides conditioning for the shoulder to throw farther, not necessarily harder and provides the conditioning for the muscles and joints to support the added stress placed on those muscles used.
The young pitcher should be taught to locate his pitches using what is comfortable for him and proper arm, body mechanics and velocity should not be paid attention to until he begins a full workout and conditioning program, which 10 year olds don't need unless they spend most of their time on the couch, the other stuff comes later on when their bodies develop and mature, naturally, then you can go to work on the velocity. Of course over use can affect injuries sooner than later. So can making young bodies work hard at weight training.
As far as not pitching until older, there are many that say that not until the growth plates are almost closed is the safer time to begin pitching from the mound. We don't have crystal balls to see that, so some make a comfortable guess at when that might be, around 11-12. This was a discussion my son had with a top shoulder specialist in the country. BTW his problem was due to an enlarged cortacoid bone, causing impingement causing tendinitous very rare, and often seen as the pitcher becomes fully grown.
The curveball is a bad pitch because young pitchers use it to be successful, and very few can throw a CB correctly. I said not to begin using it until 14 and I meant in game situations. By this time the pitcher should be relying on his FB, with CU for his breaking pitch for 85-90% of his pitches thrown, not the other way around. All pitches should come from the same slot as well. You told us once he has different arm slots for each pitch. Young hitter shave no clue what that is, smarter and older ones do.
Another thing, the constant stretching of young muscles is dangerous, because you have no idea what your son's actual frame will be like. They become so stretched they then are unable to support the bones and hold them into place.
You gave a situation where your son knows one kid that his arm hurt, well I know of dozens that gave up pitching because their arm hurt, because someone thought that they would be better off throwing HARDER than they should when they were young.
One more thing, CU and CB that are most effective are those that appear to come out of the arm just like the FB, the grip is the key, not slowing down arm speed. The purpose is to throw the hitter off balance in change in speeds. If you are teaching your son to maintain approximately the same speed, as he meets smarter pitchers no matter where the break is, they will know better and be able to figure it out in no time, trust me on this one. If you are preparing your son this way for his future, it ain't going to work. JMO.
You have come up with some unconventional ways in developing a pitcher, that's ok, it's your son and you can do what you feel is best for him, he's 14 hasn't proven that he will be healthy in future years, then you can come back and let us know, until then you shouldn't give unproven advice on a message board when you know nothing about the pitcher the parent is telling us about. He may be less physically immature than your son was at that age, smaller, taller, shorter arm, longer arm, shorter or longer legged, etc. That makes a big differnce in how hard a young player can actually throw or not throw until he develops into a man's body.
"unproven advice"? hmmm... That pretty much sums up every idea about pitching that I've ever heard. 
Sometimes armside run comes from opening early in addition to the arm slot. That can cause arm problems.
Just anecdotal evidence but I've generally seen that a lot of the kids who threw hard early seem to run into arm issues by the time they are about college age.
As far as fastballs being harder on the arm, people base that on recent info from ASMI showing that properly thrown curves stress the arm less than fastballs. However, in the past ASMI has done studies showing that throwing a curve increased the probability of elbow and shoulder pain, especially shoulder pain. My elbow always hurt after throwing a lot of curves so the part about the shoulder surprised me. The fact that kids end up with more injuries when they throw curves trumps the study saying that there isn't more stress from throwing a curve properly by a longshot. Guess what? The properly thrown curves don't work as well. Guess what? The kids are going to figure out what works best and throw it that way no matter what you tell them.
Just anecdotal evidence but I've generally seen that a lot of the kids who threw hard early seem to run into arm issues by the time they are about college age.
As far as fastballs being harder on the arm, people base that on recent info from ASMI showing that properly thrown curves stress the arm less than fastballs. However, in the past ASMI has done studies showing that throwing a curve increased the probability of elbow and shoulder pain, especially shoulder pain. My elbow always hurt after throwing a lot of curves so the part about the shoulder surprised me. The fact that kids end up with more injuries when they throw curves trumps the study saying that there isn't more stress from throwing a curve properly by a longshot. Guess what? The properly thrown curves don't work as well. Guess what? The kids are going to figure out what works best and throw it that way no matter what you tell them.
I think (again...think) that what is worrisome to most about young players throwing a curve ball are the ones who are allowing them to be thrown before the growth plates come together. Like Dr. Andrews article says, usually by the time they can begin shaving is a pretty safe time for them to start learning.
I remember when Younggunson was playing LL and there was this other team in the league that had a lefty who was nothing but lights out. Not only did he throw hard but he had a filthy curveball. Of course, being that we had only being playing ball for a couple of years we were just as mesmerized by his pitching as everyone else.
Fastfoward to his Senior year in HS when we faced him. Son asked if he was pitching against us that night and he said that he only plays 1B now. His arm/elbow killed him to pitch now and gave it up.
That was the last year he played ball again.
True story. It's sad because I liked the kid and his family.
YGD
I remember when Younggunson was playing LL and there was this other team in the league that had a lefty who was nothing but lights out. Not only did he throw hard but he had a filthy curveball. Of course, being that we had only being playing ball for a couple of years we were just as mesmerized by his pitching as everyone else.
Fastfoward to his Senior year in HS when we faced him. Son asked if he was pitching against us that night and he said that he only plays 1B now. His arm/elbow killed him to pitch now and gave it up.
That was the last year he played ball again.
True story. It's sad because I liked the kid and his family.
YGD
TPM,
Let me just say...You assume too much about me and my son, you truly have no idea to judge me just based off the very limited info I have given out. So, I will explain a few points that you have assumed about me that are wrong.
The first issue is the stretching. Every physical therapist and doctor who have examined him, adjusted him, and caught him up on medical info relating to his back and pelvis have stressed the importance of him stretching- exactly how to do it, why to do it, and when to do it. When he follows that advice he has no problem with keeping his pelvis from tilting and his L-5 lumbar from going out of alignment. So, argue with the paid doctors on that issue- thats not my advice- thats sound doctors advice. Maybe you didn't read it, but he tilted his pelvis the last time playing basketball when he jumped to get a rebound. The doctors have actually told him to keep active and "stretch a lot"- keep active.
Second, My son very occasionally will drop down and throw a side-arm pitch. As for this year- he hasn't done it once. So give that old bone up.
Third, As for pitchinga t an early age, perhaps you should take your case up with "Babe Ruth/ Cal Ripken, Little League, Pony" etc. There has never been a connection with throwing early leading to more complications than later on. Take your case elsewhere. You are not going to stop kids from being active, having fun, etc.
As for long toss- I never said I was against it, I just said that I think other throwing activities produce either the same or better results. I never was against long toss, just as I am not against band work or anything else. I just believe that bullpens are more effective to providing velocity and consistancy for a "pitcher" specific workout. If you think I am wrong take your case to every MLB organization- they all do bullpens. Some as I know do not incorporate a long toss program into their program but all believe in bullpens.
Who said anything about slowing down the arm? Maybe you didn't understand me. I think we are both saying the same thing. I teach my son to throw all of his pitches "hard", MEANING- don't slow down the ARM. Just so you know, my sons fastball usually sits around the mid 70's while his breaking ball sits aroundthe upper 60's to low 70's. One coach at a camp actually called his CB a slider because of the velocity he generates with it. So whether its a slider or a CB, it is effective because he throws it as hard with the ARM as he does the fastball, same as the CU.
There is no unconventional ways I have spoken of in developing a pitcher. You just seem to be barking up the wrong tree. All I have generally said was to not "slow down the pitches and "place them" when a pitcher struggles. I said that often times it's when they start trying to place them, that their velocity drops off and that they become less effective. Also, lobbing in meatballs does nothing in training young pitchers how to throw. I just teach my son to work on throwing hard to get things back in line. Like I said- it works at least for him. Earlier this year he was able to throw a complete game no-hitter because of his ability to maintain good velocity while getting strikes and getting batters out. You may call it unconventional or unproven advice, I call a no-hitter proof of what works. Two years ago when he finished the little league season with a perfect 0.00 era, I called that success. So call it what you want but the things I have taught my son has proven, at least to this point, success.
Let me just say...You assume too much about me and my son, you truly have no idea to judge me just based off the very limited info I have given out. So, I will explain a few points that you have assumed about me that are wrong.
The first issue is the stretching. Every physical therapist and doctor who have examined him, adjusted him, and caught him up on medical info relating to his back and pelvis have stressed the importance of him stretching- exactly how to do it, why to do it, and when to do it. When he follows that advice he has no problem with keeping his pelvis from tilting and his L-5 lumbar from going out of alignment. So, argue with the paid doctors on that issue- thats not my advice- thats sound doctors advice. Maybe you didn't read it, but he tilted his pelvis the last time playing basketball when he jumped to get a rebound. The doctors have actually told him to keep active and "stretch a lot"- keep active.
Second, My son very occasionally will drop down and throw a side-arm pitch. As for this year- he hasn't done it once. So give that old bone up.
Third, As for pitchinga t an early age, perhaps you should take your case up with "Babe Ruth/ Cal Ripken, Little League, Pony" etc. There has never been a connection with throwing early leading to more complications than later on. Take your case elsewhere. You are not going to stop kids from being active, having fun, etc.
As for long toss- I never said I was against it, I just said that I think other throwing activities produce either the same or better results. I never was against long toss, just as I am not against band work or anything else. I just believe that bullpens are more effective to providing velocity and consistancy for a "pitcher" specific workout. If you think I am wrong take your case to every MLB organization- they all do bullpens. Some as I know do not incorporate a long toss program into their program but all believe in bullpens.
Who said anything about slowing down the arm? Maybe you didn't understand me. I think we are both saying the same thing. I teach my son to throw all of his pitches "hard", MEANING- don't slow down the ARM. Just so you know, my sons fastball usually sits around the mid 70's while his breaking ball sits aroundthe upper 60's to low 70's. One coach at a camp actually called his CB a slider because of the velocity he generates with it. So whether its a slider or a CB, it is effective because he throws it as hard with the ARM as he does the fastball, same as the CU.
There is no unconventional ways I have spoken of in developing a pitcher. You just seem to be barking up the wrong tree. All I have generally said was to not "slow down the pitches and "place them" when a pitcher struggles. I said that often times it's when they start trying to place them, that their velocity drops off and that they become less effective. Also, lobbing in meatballs does nothing in training young pitchers how to throw. I just teach my son to work on throwing hard to get things back in line. Like I said- it works at least for him. Earlier this year he was able to throw a complete game no-hitter because of his ability to maintain good velocity while getting strikes and getting batters out. You may call it unconventional or unproven advice, I call a no-hitter proof of what works. Two years ago when he finished the little league season with a perfect 0.00 era, I called that success. So call it what you want but the things I have taught my son has proven, at least to this point, success.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
However, in the past ASMI has done studies showing that throwing a curve increased the probability of elbow and shoulder pain, especially shoulder pain.
CADad, I respect your opinion. But, ASMI drew some faulty conclusions from that study using some bad logic. (This is why I think they should just stick to repairing injuries)
They found that kids that only threw fastballs, had less injuries than kids that also threw a (self-identified) curveball.
Then they made the leap of logic that throwing curveballs caused the injuries.
If you think about that for a minute, you'll realize they have no way of correlating the curve balls with the increased injuries. Kids that throw CB likely also throw most of the game pitches, etc., etc. They never tested any kid's technique to see if they were actually throwing curveballs, or maybe sliders, or slurves, or something else. Maybe the kids that throw many grips also throw harder. Who knows?
Turnin2,
The important question here would be, do I really know my Childs biological (not chronological) age?
This is easily done by taking x-rays of both arms from the shoulder to mid forearm on both sides of each arm on or near his chronological birthday.
This is critical! Knowing your Childs biological age (especially if he desires to pitch at this age) gives you the information you need to control when you can encourage him to get fastball outs. Better to exaggerate the motor skill acquisition drills that will teach him how to control spin to both sides of the ball while pronating all of them at this biological age knowing his fasttwitch muscle fiber percentage is locked and he will never loose the capability to throw as fast as he can if he is healthy and in shape, nothing that anybody does now adds to later velocity.
Do not let him pitch more than 2 innings once a week for only 3 months of the year during spring! This is when you do not want to mess with him bone development and competition is bone degenerative in the ballistic realm.
When he turns biologically 13 the growth plates in his elbows would have solidified and you can then encourage him to pitch more fastballs and train ballistically. What if he is biologically 9 now?
You could only know this answer if you had biological age data to work with and since our game is picked subjectively the faster kids get to pitch more giving them most of the overstress deformity.
56 is bringin it for a 10 year old equated (Biologically and Chronologically 10yo) maturer.
quote:They did some testing with the kids, and he threw 56 mph at age 10.
The important question here would be, do I really know my Childs biological (not chronological) age?
This is easily done by taking x-rays of both arms from the shoulder to mid forearm on both sides of each arm on or near his chronological birthday.
This is critical! Knowing your Childs biological age (especially if he desires to pitch at this age) gives you the information you need to control when you can encourage him to get fastball outs. Better to exaggerate the motor skill acquisition drills that will teach him how to control spin to both sides of the ball while pronating all of them at this biological age knowing his fasttwitch muscle fiber percentage is locked and he will never loose the capability to throw as fast as he can if he is healthy and in shape, nothing that anybody does now adds to later velocity.
Do not let him pitch more than 2 innings once a week for only 3 months of the year during spring! This is when you do not want to mess with him bone development and competition is bone degenerative in the ballistic realm.
When he turns biologically 13 the growth plates in his elbows would have solidified and you can then encourage him to pitch more fastballs and train ballistically. What if he is biologically 9 now?
quote:“Is that a decent speed for his age?”
You could only know this answer if you had biological age data to work with and since our game is picked subjectively the faster kids get to pitch more giving them most of the overstress deformity.
56 is bringin it for a 10 year old equated (Biologically and Chronologically 10yo) maturer.
Tell me what pro team does not incorporate a throwing program into the pitchers training? It is not an option, the only option is how far you feel comfortable with throwing. Bullpens are done once between a starters start, nothing replaces a throwing program.
Do you think that youth programs are going to say that 8,9,10 year olds should pitch? When son was young they had coach pitch, you will not find that as often these days, I am sorry we began him at 8, because nothing counts, relly counts until you are loooking for that college schoarship or trying to get ahead in teh organization that drafted you and your shoulder or elbow blew out.
As far as stretching I did not say it was bad, I said over stretching is, once you stretch out to the max, the reversal is a long and sometimes fruitless process. Healthy active very young bodies don't need stretching, seems to me that your son has some issues, if the course of seeing doctors is to correct a problem that has nothing to do what someone else should do.
Sounds like your son is throwing a slurve, that's not a true curve and not a true slider, there is a seperate distinction in both, find out. Don't go touting your son throws CB's when he is not throwing a curveball. Most young players throw the slurve, it's safer.
If he continues to throw with his ARM, good luck.
I don't always agree with YB, but what he says about biological age makes sense, in relation to what I stated aobut the growth plates.
I am not inpressed with complete no game hitters, or win/loss records or ERA's for young pitchers, it means nothing in the long run. Tell us when he's past HS, it has a lot more meaning. Usually you will find those typs of players, you know the harder throwing ones getting everyone out, don't go very far.
Do you think that youth programs are going to say that 8,9,10 year olds should pitch? When son was young they had coach pitch, you will not find that as often these days, I am sorry we began him at 8, because nothing counts, relly counts until you are loooking for that college schoarship or trying to get ahead in teh organization that drafted you and your shoulder or elbow blew out.
As far as stretching I did not say it was bad, I said over stretching is, once you stretch out to the max, the reversal is a long and sometimes fruitless process. Healthy active very young bodies don't need stretching, seems to me that your son has some issues, if the course of seeing doctors is to correct a problem that has nothing to do what someone else should do.
Sounds like your son is throwing a slurve, that's not a true curve and not a true slider, there is a seperate distinction in both, find out. Don't go touting your son throws CB's when he is not throwing a curveball. Most young players throw the slurve, it's safer.
If he continues to throw with his ARM, good luck.
I don't always agree with YB, but what he says about biological age makes sense, in relation to what I stated aobut the growth plates.
I am not inpressed with complete no game hitters, or win/loss records or ERA's for young pitchers, it means nothing in the long run. Tell us when he's past HS, it has a lot more meaning. Usually you will find those typs of players, you know the harder throwing ones getting everyone out, don't go very far.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Tell me what pro team does not incorporate a throwing program into the pitchers training? It is not an option, the only option is how far you feel comfortable with throwing. Bullpens are done once between a starters start, nothing replaces a throwing program.
Do you think that youth programs are going to say that 8,9,10 year olds should pitch? When son was young they had coach pitch, you will not find that as often these days, I am sorry we began him at 8, because nothing counts, relly counts until you are loooking for that college schoarship or trying to get ahead in teh organization that drafted you and your shoulder or elbow blew out.
As far as stretching I did not say it was bad, I said over stretching is, once you stretch out to the max, the reversal is a long and sometimes fruitless process. Healthy active very young bodies don't need stretching, seems to me that your son has some issues, if the course of seeing doctors is to correct a problem that has nothing to do what someone else should do.
Sounds like your son is throwing a slurve, that's not a true curve and not a true slider, there is a seperate distinction in both, find out. Don't go touting your son throws CB's when he is not throwing a curveball. Most young players throw the slurve, it's safer.
If he continues to throw with his ARM, good luck.
I don't always agree with YB, but what he says about biological age makes sense, in relation to what I stated aobut the growth plates.
I am not inpressed with complete no game hitters, or win/loss records or ERA's for young pitchers, it means nothing in the long run. Tell us when he's past HS, it has a lot more meaning. Usually you will find those typs of players, you know the harder throwing ones getting everyone out, don't go very far.
How can you say my son is throwing a "slurve" when You have never even seen it?
Generally speaking TPM, thanks for all of your negative comments, it will be an incentive to prove you wrong some day.
There is a phrase that comes to mind after reading through this thread: opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one. Every kid is going to develop differently and what works for one may not work for another.
I do believe that a young kid should not be "trying" to throw as hard as he can. My son had a natural ability to through hard without really trying. I contribute some of this to the way I taught him to throw and that he swam on a swim team from the time he was 4 to age 11. Yes, I believe swimming help develop balanced strengh on both sides of his body and in his back. I sought instruction for my son when he wanted to start to "TRY" to through hard from a professional to ensure good mechanics in hopes that trying to throw hard would not hurt his arm or shoulder. The pro that I found to help my son always told me that kids up through age 13 or 14 simply needed to learn good mechanics and be comfortable when they throw and not try too hard because it creates tension in the body and tension is not a good thing over time. Smooth constant (non-jerking) motion was our goal. Such techniques should carry a kid through the changes occuring in his body as he matured.
A kids body changes a lot from 10 to 14 or 15 (and again into 18/19) and they really have to learn how to pitch all over again once thier body matures from that younger state. I saw many kids that dominated at age 12 that simply were not that good at 15/16.
I believe too much focus is put on velocity. But that is what gets the attention from pro scouts. If you don't throw over 90 mph you do not get much if any attention from the pros. IMHO that has a trickle down affect all the way into little league. Sure, if you throw hard in little league you are going to dominate. My experience is that does not translate into later success. I saw many arms drop by the way side on the way to the next level.
I do believe that a young kid should not be "trying" to throw as hard as he can. My son had a natural ability to through hard without really trying. I contribute some of this to the way I taught him to throw and that he swam on a swim team from the time he was 4 to age 11. Yes, I believe swimming help develop balanced strengh on both sides of his body and in his back. I sought instruction for my son when he wanted to start to "TRY" to through hard from a professional to ensure good mechanics in hopes that trying to throw hard would not hurt his arm or shoulder. The pro that I found to help my son always told me that kids up through age 13 or 14 simply needed to learn good mechanics and be comfortable when they throw and not try too hard because it creates tension in the body and tension is not a good thing over time. Smooth constant (non-jerking) motion was our goal. Such techniques should carry a kid through the changes occuring in his body as he matured.
A kids body changes a lot from 10 to 14 or 15 (and again into 18/19) and they really have to learn how to pitch all over again once thier body matures from that younger state. I saw many kids that dominated at age 12 that simply were not that good at 15/16.
I believe too much focus is put on velocity. But that is what gets the attention from pro scouts. If you don't throw over 90 mph you do not get much if any attention from the pros. IMHO that has a trickle down affect all the way into little league. Sure, if you throw hard in little league you are going to dominate. My experience is that does not translate into later success. I saw many arms drop by the way side on the way to the next level.
I did a lot wrong when I was "working" with my son and his pitching starting at about age 8-9 years old. I learned about growth plates a few years later. I taught him to throw as hard as he could --- had a game we called "burnout" to see whether he or I would wear out or mess up first. While he always had excellent velocity, he liked to throw curve balls at a young age too. Knowing it was harmful if not thrown properly and knowing he would throw it when I wasn't around, I taught him the proper CB mechanics and he developed a very good 12/6 curve when he was about 10-11. He pitched and caught in HS and college and never developed any arm problems. He "cruised" at however hard he could throw. HOWEVER, if your son follows my son's routine of throwing as hard as he can at a young age and throwing curve balls before he's allowed to watch PG13 movies, ODDS are he will never pitch in HS or college and if he does pitch in HS he will probably have Tommy John's surgery before he graduates high school.
Fungo
HOWEVER, if your son follows my son's routine of throwing as hard as he can at a young age and throwing curve balls before he's allowed to watch PG13 movies, ODDS are he will never pitch in HS or college and if he does pitch in HS he will probably have Tommy John's surgery before he graduates high school.Fungo
Fungo,
I don't know if that last sentence was tongue in cheek, partially tongue in cheek, or exactly what you meant to say.
IMO, following the path you took with your son might increase the risk a bit, but there's no way to say with any individual kid that they'll probably (i.e. ODDS are) have TJ before graduating HS. There's way too many variables involved and no way to tell for certain how any approach is going to work for any kid. Once again, JMO.
I don't know if that last sentence was tongue in cheek, partially tongue in cheek, or exactly what you meant to say.
IMO, following the path you took with your son might increase the risk a bit, but there's no way to say with any individual kid that they'll probably (i.e. ODDS are) have TJ before graduating HS. There's way too many variables involved and no way to tell for certain how any approach is going to work for any kid. Once again, JMO.
I do like what the various little league organizations have done to curb over-pitching in young kids. That said, I do think there is a harmful trend in todays society to baby kids arms to the point of them having arm pain when they do throw because they just do not throw enough to have a properly conditioned arm.- they shouldn't even be pitching at all if thats the case!
For example- look at the athleticism drills hammered into youth football players- they do it over and over again until they literally hurt all over. After a few weeks of this training the pain goes away and they build the hardened strength and stamina to compete without risk of fatal injury. Now certainly I am not suggesting this for baseball players- especially pitchers, but if kids do not learn how to throw with decent velocity and keep up that regiment through high school then they are going to have poorly conditioned arms that fatigue easily because they are weak which may lead to tears that lead up to injury or surgery.
I do not teach nor believe that a young kid should go out and throw his "hardest" in games to win, but that he should go out and put some effort into it and maintain a decent velocity without falling into the trap of trying to place it with a slower velocity. As he does this he will have a better conditioned arm and more repeatable mechanics. Veleocity should always be gauged within the context of the thrower and the situation. When little league coaches look for "pitchers", one of the main ingredients is "velocity". Lets be honest, velocity, even at an early age, is what draws those kids into being pitchers by coaches and parents who see this as compared with the other players. Velocity at an early age usually means that kid has some degree of natural talent and ability coupled to some degree with genetic gifts. It also means that the kids throwing a little harder than others have more refined mechanics.
For example- look at the athleticism drills hammered into youth football players- they do it over and over again until they literally hurt all over. After a few weeks of this training the pain goes away and they build the hardened strength and stamina to compete without risk of fatal injury. Now certainly I am not suggesting this for baseball players- especially pitchers, but if kids do not learn how to throw with decent velocity and keep up that regiment through high school then they are going to have poorly conditioned arms that fatigue easily because they are weak which may lead to tears that lead up to injury or surgery.
I do not teach nor believe that a young kid should go out and throw his "hardest" in games to win, but that he should go out and put some effort into it and maintain a decent velocity without falling into the trap of trying to place it with a slower velocity. As he does this he will have a better conditioned arm and more repeatable mechanics. Veleocity should always be gauged within the context of the thrower and the situation. When little league coaches look for "pitchers", one of the main ingredients is "velocity". Lets be honest, velocity, even at an early age, is what draws those kids into being pitchers by coaches and parents who see this as compared with the other players. Velocity at an early age usually means that kid has some degree of natural talent and ability coupled to some degree with genetic gifts. It also means that the kids throwing a little harder than others have more refined mechanics.
GBM, I will not question whether or not what you are doing for and with your son is good or bad or whether it is best for him or not. I simply don't know your son or your situation. I will say that you speak with a lot of confidence that I don't think is well founded yet. Your son is only 14, so, quite frankly, you really don't know whether it will work in the long run or not. Yet you still talk like what you have done with him is what should be done.
Also, around here, mid 70's for a 14 year old is fairly common. Summer before my son's freshman year, he was throwing 82. Another kid at 13 and 14 was considered a hard thrower and threw about as hard as my son. At the same showcase between freshman and sophomore years, my son threw 86 and this kid threw 74. Everyone thought that kid had great mechanics. You really just don't ever know.
Another personal story. My son was like yours in that through 14 years old, he never got sore, seemingly never got tired. Once he turned 15 and started throwing in the mid 80's, he did start getting sore and had some minor elbow issues. I believe that part of that was a result of his velocity and quite frankly, part of it was from throwing too many curveballs. We cut WAY back on the CB's this summer and he has been fine - Arm wise and effectiveness wise. All this has nothing to do with size either. He has always been small for his age. Currently, he is 5'9" about 170 lbs. Has hit as high as 87 with his fastball and usually cruises between 84 and 86. He is going into his junior year.
I also think you need to take into account the competition your son faces. Sounds like he is playing rec league ball. If my son were playing there, he would have some no hitters and a ton of shut outs. He plays the highest level of competition available.
Anyway, bottom line is, I really don't think your son is old enough or experienced enough to know for sure whether what you are doing is going to work or not. Just don't think you should be so adamant about your theories until they can either be proven or disproven over time. There are a lot of people here who have seen much more than you. There are plenty of people here whose son's have made it to a much higher level than yours. You should really take into consideration what they say.
Also, around here, mid 70's for a 14 year old is fairly common. Summer before my son's freshman year, he was throwing 82. Another kid at 13 and 14 was considered a hard thrower and threw about as hard as my son. At the same showcase between freshman and sophomore years, my son threw 86 and this kid threw 74. Everyone thought that kid had great mechanics. You really just don't ever know.
Another personal story. My son was like yours in that through 14 years old, he never got sore, seemingly never got tired. Once he turned 15 and started throwing in the mid 80's, he did start getting sore and had some minor elbow issues. I believe that part of that was a result of his velocity and quite frankly, part of it was from throwing too many curveballs. We cut WAY back on the CB's this summer and he has been fine - Arm wise and effectiveness wise. All this has nothing to do with size either. He has always been small for his age. Currently, he is 5'9" about 170 lbs. Has hit as high as 87 with his fastball and usually cruises between 84 and 86. He is going into his junior year.
I also think you need to take into account the competition your son faces. Sounds like he is playing rec league ball. If my son were playing there, he would have some no hitters and a ton of shut outs. He plays the highest level of competition available.
Anyway, bottom line is, I really don't think your son is old enough or experienced enough to know for sure whether what you are doing is going to work or not. Just don't think you should be so adamant about your theories until they can either be proven or disproven over time. There are a lot of people here who have seen much more than you. There are plenty of people here whose son's have made it to a much higher level than yours. You should really take into consideration what they say.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
GBM, I will not question whether or not what you are doing for and with your son is good or bad or whether it is best for him or not. I simply don't know your son or your situation. I will say that you speak with a lot of confidence that I don't think is well founded yet. Your son is only 14, so, quite frankly, you really don't know whether it will work in the long run or not. Yet you still talk like what you have done with him is what should be done.
I think that fairly sums it up for me too.
You said a college coach said your son's CB looked like a slider, you said it was a curve ball, well a curve ball is a curve ball and a slider is a slider. What was it that day? How about some video?
You know what, who really cares what anyone does at 14 other than the parent? I am sure you wouldn't care if I went into detail what son did at 14, how dominate he was, how hard he threw, it doesn't matter, who cares, heck I don't even care!
IMHO: Velocity at age 10 isn't important.
Learn how to repeat delivery, throw fastballs to location, stay balanced and don't get hurt.
If he's throwing 56 as a 10U, he's fine velocity wise. The rest of it (STAY HEALTHY) is most important.
My son once threw 146 pitches in a LL All Star game as a 10U. The game was delayed over an hour for a monsoon storm, after he took a line drive off his shin, which swelled up mightily while we waited out the rain delay. He went back out and struggled. They brought him out two days later and couldn't understand why he was struggling.
Don't let this happen to you!
Fortunately he's stayed healthy and like others who have posted here, gets tired much quicker now than he did when he was young and either walking or striking out every hitter (sadly, the K's & BB's were about equal at that age).
He just finished his second varsity season as a sophomore and most likely is the #1 pitcher at his 5A-I HS he next two years. Now I go ballistic around 105 pitches...
Learn how to repeat delivery, throw fastballs to location, stay balanced and don't get hurt.
If he's throwing 56 as a 10U, he's fine velocity wise. The rest of it (STAY HEALTHY) is most important.
My son once threw 146 pitches in a LL All Star game as a 10U. The game was delayed over an hour for a monsoon storm, after he took a line drive off his shin, which swelled up mightily while we waited out the rain delay. He went back out and struggled. They brought him out two days later and couldn't understand why he was struggling.
Don't let this happen to you!
Fortunately he's stayed healthy and like others who have posted here, gets tired much quicker now than he did when he was young and either walking or striking out every hitter (sadly, the K's & BB's were about equal at that age).
He just finished his second varsity season as a sophomore and most likely is the #1 pitcher at his 5A-I HS he next two years. Now I go ballistic around 105 pitches...
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
GBM, I will not question whether or not what you are doing for and with your son is good or bad or whether it is best for him or not. I simply don't know your son or your situation. I will say that you speak with a lot of confidence that I don't think is well founded yet. Your son is only 14, so, quite frankly, you really don't know whether it will work in the long run or not. Yet you still talk like what you have done with him is what should be done.
Also, around here, mid 70's for a 14 year old is fairly common. Summer before my son's freshman year, he was throwing 82. Another kid at 13 and 14 was considered a hard thrower and threw about as hard as my son. At the same showcase between freshman and sophomore years, my son threw 86 and this kid threw 74. Everyone thought that kid had great mechanics. You really just don't ever know.
Another personal story. My son was like yours in that through 14 years old, he never got sore, seemingly never got tired. Once he turned 15 and started throwing in the mid 80's, he did start getting sore and had some minor elbow issues. I believe that part of that was a result of his velocity and quite frankly, part of it was from throwing too many curveballs. We cut WAY back on the CB's this summer and he has been fine - Arm wise and effectiveness wise. All this has nothing to do with size either. He has always been small for his age. Currently, he is 5'9" about 170 lbs. Has hit as high as 87 with his fastball and usually cruises between 84 and 86. He is going into his junior year.
I also think you need to take into account the competition your son faces. Sounds like he is playing rec league ball. If my son were playing there, he would have some no hitters and a ton of shut outs. He plays the highest level of competition available.
Anyway, bottom line is, I really don't think your son is old enough or experienced enough to know for sure whether what you are doing is going to work or not. Just don't think you should be so adamant about your theories until they can either be proven or disproven over time. There are a lot of people here who have seen much more than you. There are plenty of people here whose son's have made it to a much higher level than yours. You should really take into consideration what they say.
Like I said many times- What I have taught my son about pounding the strike zone with decent velocity works. Is that bad advice? Is that not what every professional ball cliub teaches? Hello? Sorry but I do not see where the advice I have given is backwoods redneck material! Like I also said before, My son sits in games in the mid seventies, which by most standards that I can tell from reading through the backlog here on the HSBBweb is above average for his age. No, he isn't one of the those phenom "heat" guys. I never said he was. I even said that others in his travel league can throw harder. That said, he has one of the best commands of the strike zone in his travel league.
So you think we play in a weak league against sub-par talent? How can you know? We play some of the most talented ball for our area. Two years ago the little league team (Cal-Ripken) that my son plays against in travel ball went to the Cal-Ripken world series. These are the type of caliber kids we are seeing in most games. Those kids from that team beat everyone out in the entire Northwest to represent the northwest in the Cal-Ripken world series back east. This year our kids that we play with and against played for the baseball team Idaho that went to Peoria AZ for the USA baseball west tournament. They were seeded 11th out of 35 teams after pool play, most of which were from California. The top thrower, from Team Idaho at that tournament was clocked throwing 84. We face this kid all the time along with others throwing well also.
My son stopped playing rec ball 2 years ago because he was not challenged enough.
I don't really want to get in a pis_sen contest, that is not my intent. I gave the advice and points I made and I am stickin by it.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by bballman:
GBM, I will not question whether or not what you are doing for and with your son is good or bad or whether it is best for him or not. I simply don't know your son or your situation. I will say that you speak with a lot of confidence that I don't think is well founded yet. Your son is only 14, so, quite frankly, you really don't know whether it will work in the long run or not. Yet you still talk like what you have done with him is what should be done.
I think that fairly sums it up for me too.
You said a college coach said your son's CB looked like a slider, you said it was a curve ball, well a curve ball is a curve ball and a slider is a slider. What was it that day? How about some video?
You know what, who really cares what anyone does at 14 other than the parent? I am sure you wouldn't care if I went into detail what son did at 14, how dominate he was, how hard he threw, it doesn't matter, who cares, heck I don't even care!
quote:I don't know if that last sentence was tongue in cheek, partially tongue in cheek, or exactly what you meant to say.
Not tongue in cheek at all. I believe if a young kid at 8-9 is taught to throw as hard as they can and constantly throw curveballs they ARE injuring their arm. This injury will either eliminate their ability to pitch in HS or they will eventually end up having surgery to correct this injury. My son was lucky that he never had arm problems BUT his shoulder makes funny noises as he moves it around. Obviously it is possible to do these things and NOT have problems but it is very risky to PUSH your kid in this direction .... or ... ALLOW your kid to go in this direction.
Fungo
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Like I said many times- What I have taught my son about pounding the strike zone with decent velocity works. Is that bad advice? Is that not what every professional ball cliub teaches? Hello?
You are right, that is what they teach, but it's not all about pitching at that level as hard as you can, but throwing strikes. Of course it's about decent velocity, but not pitching your hardest throughout a game. BTW, your son is 14, not at the professional level, keep it to what 14 year olds should be doing, not older men and don't compare the two. There is a method to all of this madness, the whole idea is to keep things age specific. Not do as a young child what professional men do, don't you get that?
Also, next year get yourself out of Idaho and do some serious travel ball in the country, get a look at some of the players your son will be in competition in HS for recruiting and scouting, play up as well. A player can be dominate in his age group, but as you move up that diminishes greatly.
Over the past year, you have stated that your son did well, pitching from different arm angles (not now), he gets his strength and conditioning from throwing hard off of the mound (no long toss) and even went home after a game and threw against a wall to keep his arm in shape (not good after the cool down). Each and every time you have been called out. It's ok what you wish to do with your son, but leave the advice off the board.
I don't think that anyone is saying your son isn't talented, all they are trying to say is be careful.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Like I said many times- What I have taught my son about pounding the strike zone with decent velocity works. Is that bad advice? Is that not what every professional ball cliub teaches? Hello?
You are right, that is what they teach, but it's not all about pitching at that level as hard as you can, but throwing strikes. Of course it's about decent velocity, but not pitching your hardest throughout a game. BTW, your son is 14, not at the professional level, keep it to what 14 year olds should be doing, not older men and don't compare the two. There is a method to all of this madness, the whole idea is to keep things age specific. Not do as a young child what professional men do, don't you get that?
Also, next year get yourself out of Idaho and do some serious travel ball in the country, get a look at some of the players your son will be in competition in HS for recruiting and scouting, play up as well. A player can be dominate in his age group, but as you move up that diminishes greatly.
Over the past year, you have stated that your son did well, pitching from different arm angles (not now), he gets his strength and conditioning from throwing hard off of the mound (no long toss) and even went home after a game and threw against a wall to keep his arm in shape (not good after the cool down). Each and every time you have been called out. It's ok what you wish to do with your son, but leave the advice off the board.
I don't think that anyone is saying your son isn't talented, all they are trying to say is be careful.
Perhaps we are saying the same thing about pitching har or not a young age. Trust me on this- I do not teach my son or other young pitchers to just go out and throw as hard as they can. I teach them to throw with a good hard decent velocity- not "all out". I do know the limits and risks of throwing kids with growing bodies. A philosophy I believe in is to throw often, but stop before fatigue sets in. By "throw", I do not mean "pitching"- I mean to just toss a ball back and forth- kind of like a sprinter who "jogs". When it comes to actual "pitching", I am very critical on each and every pitch watching for any sign of a miscue in mechanics or fatigue setting in. You probably read above that I once took my kid off a team that I thought was over-pitching him just to try to win/ stay in games more.
We are planning on going to some camps and such out of state next year.
As for long toss- hey, we may give it a whirl this fall. It's not that I am opposed to it, just that what we have done to this point with the bullpens have been very effective. So, if we find two things that are effective- great!
My son has played up every year since he turned 12. He has often had to face kids 2 years older that were bigger, stronger and faster.
I hope that no one on this board seeking advice is believeing that I think it sound advice to punish kids by throwing "all out" at an early age- that is exactly "not" what I am trying to say. So, to clarify on that point-
Teach your young pitchers to throw with a good decent velocity- a velocity that they are comfortable throwing with some effort involved. Keep the outings frequent, but not long, and never let them pitch with any pain or fatigue.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
It's ok what you wish to do with your son, but leave the advice off the board.
A little bossy today?
You preach long toss. Many don't believe in it. No MLB pitcher before 1980 did it, and they were able to pitch many more complete games than pitchers today.
I welcome ideas of others. They should be able to be challenged here - and he was.
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
You preach long toss. Many don't believe in it.
And you know this, how?
Just because you come on here and say it doesn't make it true. We're living in 2010, not 1980. No, I can't prove it but a majority of high school and colleges practice long toss every day. MLB teams utilize it now for the benefits.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
It's ok what you wish to do with your son, but leave the advice off the board.
A little bossy today?
You preach long toss. Many don't believe in it. No MLB pitcher before 1980 did it, and they were able to pitch many more complete games than pitchers today.
I welcome ideas of others. They should be able to be challenged here - and he was.
YGD is correct, this is not 1980, it's a whole different game. When was the last time you climbed the hill and pitched a game?
My son's pitching coach in high A and double A and who he turns to advice for, Dennis Martinez, you know who he is right? Dennis is a recovering alcoholic, he told son the pain was so intense at times he just drank it away, that's what he did can you imagine what others did? Pain was part of their game. Does what happened in the past make it right? That is just the way it was and lessons have been learned from that and rarely much talked about. His opinion is that the players of today are so much better off with pitch counts, better training, better instruction, better medical care, etc. than they were back then. I'll take that opinion over yours anyday.
What makes you think people didn't long toss before 1980? It is just a name for something that has been done almost since the invention of baseball.
The reason for the more recent implementation of long toss is that done on an arc, gradually increasing distance, it has been used for rehab. When it is done that way it is a bit safer. It still isn't perfectly safe. Almost no throwing is completely safe.
Long toss isn't a miracle. It helps some. It doesn't help others. Some pitchers benefit more from bullpens and flatgrounds. There's only so much time/(wear and tear)/catchers available and each player has to determine what mix works best within those constraints. Each player has to find out what works for them and what their body can and can't handle. Parents need to help with that a bit until the players are ready to take over for themselves.
The reason for the more recent implementation of long toss is that done on an arc, gradually increasing distance, it has been used for rehab. When it is done that way it is a bit safer. It still isn't perfectly safe. Almost no throwing is completely safe.
Long toss isn't a miracle. It helps some. It doesn't help others. Some pitchers benefit more from bullpens and flatgrounds. There's only so much time/(wear and tear)/catchers available and each player has to determine what mix works best within those constraints. Each player has to find out what works for them and what their body can and can't handle. Parents need to help with that a bit until the players are ready to take over for themselves.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Parents need to help with that a bit until the players are ready to take over for themselves.
I agree with the above, however someone told me that the overly obsessive parent who wants to micro manage their youngsters often becomes the overly obsessive parent of older players and has no clue when to let go or realizes any harm they may be in doing so.
Some others things said:
"Real" baseball people (those in the profession) understand that there is a lot of failure in this game and if you develop young players with too high of expectation day in and day out, most usually break down either physically or emotionally.
Also believes that young players should be taught proper mechanics and conditioning for their age (appropriate) and not be concerned with throwing harder, how many wins or how many people they struck out, etc. It all changes and in many cases, the young player is best left to develop his natural talent without too much stress placed upon a growing body (throwing often and harder from the mound at young ages can create this). For many that may include not throwing curve balls as well as other pitches introduced to players too early.
Each player is different and develops differently, the opening statements about one should be concerned about velocity at 10 is not good, this may be a good concern for him but not in general.
This is also a person who knowa a lot more on player development and success than we do.
So whose opinion would you beleive would be best for young players, an overly obsessive dad or one who is a professional in the business?
I am gonna go with the latter.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
What makes you think people didn't long toss before 1980? It is just a name for something that has been done almost since the invention of baseball.
Do you have any articles, pictures, videos, etc. that show any pitchers (not outfielders) doing this?
Not that it matters, because I am sure my son will end up doing long toss somewhere regardless of what I think.
No, do you have articles, pictures, videos, etc. proving that pitchers didn't do it?
I do know that we threw the ball as far as we could from time to time well before 1980. We didn't do it on a regular basis and we didn't call it long toss.
I tried to play some long toss myself on Sunday. I could only throw it about 185'. Then we went to the MLB fanfest. I figured I'd be able to hit about 65 mph on the guns they had there as a result. They had the whole thing set up very poorly making it very difficult to get a reading when trying to throw hard but I did manage to hit 65.
They had non-baseball people running it and they didn't realize they had their Stalkers set up way too close to where people were throwing from. Release points tended to be outside the beam divergence angle they were so close. It worked fine for the little kids but the bigger kids who were throwing fairly hard tended not to get a reading at all.
I do know that we threw the ball as far as we could from time to time well before 1980. We didn't do it on a regular basis and we didn't call it long toss.
I tried to play some long toss myself on Sunday. I could only throw it about 185'. Then we went to the MLB fanfest. I figured I'd be able to hit about 65 mph on the guns they had there as a result. They had the whole thing set up very poorly making it very difficult to get a reading when trying to throw hard but I did manage to hit 65.
They had non-baseball people running it and they didn't realize they had their Stalkers set up way too close to where people were throwing from. Release points tended to be outside the beam divergence angle they were so close. It worked fine for the little kids but the bigger kids who were throwing fairly hard tended not to get a reading at all.
quote:. They had the whole thing set up very poorly making it very difficult to get a reading when trying to throw hard but I did manage to hit 65.
Not bad, CA Dad. I got clocked at 85 the other day.
Course that was by a state trooper.
Showing my age here - but I had a Little League coach in 1973 and 1974 who had his entire team doing long toss as a part of every practice. Not sure when long toss started - but I know Coach Crane was a believer back then when I was 11 and 12.
He also had us using bike inner tubes as we warmed up for our bullpens... very much like the bands of today.
On a related note, I was curious a few years back on how many kids made it from 12 years old to HS baseball. So I found an allstar program from the local little league district tourney and traced as many of the kids as I could find. Less than 50% of the ones I could find made it from LL Allstar to high school varsity player.
So how hard does a 10 YO throw? Does it really matter given the fall out rate?
He also had us using bike inner tubes as we warmed up for our bullpens... very much like the bands of today.
On a related note, I was curious a few years back on how many kids made it from 12 years old to HS baseball. So I found an allstar program from the local little league district tourney and traced as many of the kids as I could find. Less than 50% of the ones I could find made it from LL Allstar to high school varsity player.
So how hard does a 10 YO throw? Does it really matter given the fall out rate?
I got a pic of CADad leaving.
Yeah, like you'd catch me wearing a suit. 
quote:Originally posted by 08Dad:
Less than 50% of the ones I could find made it from LL Allstar to high school varsity player.
Likely because 50% of those kids on the LL Allstar roster are the kids of coaches or the kids of the coaches friends. Bum, Jr. was a rarely-used sub at that age.
Should have fun at age 10. Success or lack of it at that age means nothing.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:quote:Originally posted by 08Dad:
Less than 50% of the ones I could find made it from LL Allstar to high school varsity player.
Likely because 50% of those kids on the LL Allstar roster are the kids of coaches or the kids of the coaches friends. Bum, Jr. was a rarely-used sub at that age.
Should have fun at age 10. Success or lack of it at that age means nothing.
No doubt there was some of that - but we are talking about a sample of over 200 kids - I suspect that a greater cause is simply how kids grow from 13 to 15 and as result some get better and some fall back.
Regardless, baseball should be all about fun at 10 or 12 and not about success...
quote:Originally posted by 08Dad:
Regardless, baseball should be all about fun at 10 or 12 and not about success...
Exactly.
Your percentage was pretty good, even here in florida, you won't find many who were involved in LL playing at a higher level (college or beyond). Though FL is a state with many draft picks, I think the fallout rate has alot to do with year round baseball, year round sports in general and too much emphasis on youth travel ball and all it encompases too early for youngsters (which causes injuries later).
It's just my opinion that most push their young players too hard too soon, the whole object in this game, no matter HS, college, or beyond is remaining healthy, because injuries cause lost oppoortunities.
For those that have had players with serious injuries with long recovery time (when it counted the most), they understand.
Those that think that they are doing what they should (things meant for older more mature players to keep bodies healthy), really don't.
At the HS baseball post season dinner they put together a video/slide presentation and included was a clip of our 10u all star team. I believe 7 kids from that clip were on our HS team and 1 or 2 more were on it the next season. 1 or 2 more may have ended up at other schools. That 10u team was very competitive with the Conejo team that won the US LL championship a couple years later. I believe 4 of the kids from our 10u team are playing college baseball. 2 kids who weren't on that team are playing college ball. They were both on the next tier team and both were pulled up to play with the team in the post LL tournament.
I think I can find the 12yo team roster, but I don't think quite as many made the HS team. Should be interesting to check. (6 of 12 of the 12yo all-stars) The only coach's kid who didn't make the HS team from that roster was the HS team's starting quarterback. 3 players from that team are playing college ball. 2 more current college players would have been on the team but they left to play in a more competitive PONY league which sends teams to the WS virtually every year.
I think I can find the 12yo team roster, but I don't think quite as many made the HS team. Should be interesting to check. (6 of 12 of the 12yo all-stars) The only coach's kid who didn't make the HS team from that roster was the HS team's starting quarterback. 3 players from that team are playing college ball. 2 more current college players would have been on the team but they left to play in a more competitive PONY league which sends teams to the WS virtually every year.
TPM,
How do you go from "a little bit of help" meaning help keeping them from overdoing it, to overly obsessive parent? That is one of the most blatant examples of twisting words and twisted logic I've ever seen.
Generally speaking most of the injuries I've seen have resulted from overuse at the hands of unqualified HS coaches and strength trainers while kids are experiencing their growth spurts and they've happened equally to the kids of parents who try to be involved and to those who stay out of it. I've seen very few injuries at LL ages and little or no correlation between playing time or position in LL and the HS injuries.
Probably the worst example was the kid who was being coached by the incoming JV coach and was sent to me after playing with the JV winter team. I was coaching the freshmen. I was told he'd be pitching for me that day. I watched him play catch for 5 minutes and sent him to a doctor. At 14 he had little league elbow from being so badly overused by the incoming JV coach. He was sent down to me because he wasn't pitching as well...what a surprise given that he'd pulled a piece of bone off his elbow. This kid whose parents did just a wonderful job of staying out of it, was out of baseball within a year or two as he never fully recovered from that injury and the lost time.
How do you go from "a little bit of help" meaning help keeping them from overdoing it, to overly obsessive parent? That is one of the most blatant examples of twisting words and twisted logic I've ever seen.
Generally speaking most of the injuries I've seen have resulted from overuse at the hands of unqualified HS coaches and strength trainers while kids are experiencing their growth spurts and they've happened equally to the kids of parents who try to be involved and to those who stay out of it. I've seen very few injuries at LL ages and little or no correlation between playing time or position in LL and the HS injuries.
Probably the worst example was the kid who was being coached by the incoming JV coach and was sent to me after playing with the JV winter team. I was coaching the freshmen. I was told he'd be pitching for me that day. I watched him play catch for 5 minutes and sent him to a doctor. At 14 he had little league elbow from being so badly overused by the incoming JV coach. He was sent down to me because he wasn't pitching as well...what a surprise given that he'd pulled a piece of bone off his elbow. This kid whose parents did just a wonderful job of staying out of it, was out of baseball within a year or two as he never fully recovered from that injury and the lost time.
There's being involved and educated and being overly obsessive.
There are parents so obsessed to make their son's stars they become overly involved in what player's need to do age specific, in other words they are training their kids like they are fully grown men.
Hey I don't care what anyone wants to do with their own players, just don't go telling others what to do, here, when you have no idea what the end result will be, until he gets older.
There are parents so obsessed to make their son's stars they become overly involved in what player's need to do age specific, in other words they are training their kids like they are fully grown men.
Hey I don't care what anyone wants to do with their own players, just don't go telling others what to do, here, when you have no idea what the end result will be, until he gets older.
TPM,
Well I guess being obsessive is one area where you have some personal experience.
If you haven't figured it out yet the internet and this site are sources of information. Some is good, some is bad and people have to make up their own minds. Unfortunately, there are people with virtually no baseball experience who'll pass themselves off as experts and people will believe them. Then there are those of us who express opinions and don't try to pretend that we are experts. Sometimes the opinions can be strong. For example, Bum has very strong opinions about long toss because it has worked well for his son. There's nothing wrong with him expressing his opinions. The rest of us have to take what it has done for his son and look at other cases and make our own decisions but there's certainly nothing wrong with him expressing his firm opinions on long toss and letting other people take or ignore that advice as they wish.
The beauty and the potential trap of the internet is the wealth of opinions and information. Some people may even listen to yardbird. That's their decision. There's no law against that particular form of masochism.
BTW, you might want to take your own advice.
Well I guess being obsessive is one area where you have some personal experience.
If you haven't figured it out yet the internet and this site are sources of information. Some is good, some is bad and people have to make up their own minds. Unfortunately, there are people with virtually no baseball experience who'll pass themselves off as experts and people will believe them. Then there are those of us who express opinions and don't try to pretend that we are experts. Sometimes the opinions can be strong. For example, Bum has very strong opinions about long toss because it has worked well for his son. There's nothing wrong with him expressing his opinions. The rest of us have to take what it has done for his son and look at other cases and make our own decisions but there's certainly nothing wrong with him expressing his firm opinions on long toss and letting other people take or ignore that advice as they wish.
The beauty and the potential trap of the internet is the wealth of opinions and information. Some people may even listen to yardbird. That's their decision. There's no law against that particular form of masochism.
BTW, you might want to take your own advice.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
TPM,
Well I guess being obsessive is one area where you have some personal experience.
And do I go about posting clips of players that were taken 4 years ago and offer a critique?
Sorry, I am not with you. Bum's son is proof of what he did is working, he's past the 10-14 year old stage. When your player gets past that and all remains good, let us know.
Besides his post makes sense, younger is about having fun, not success or lack of it. That's not important in the long run, is it?
BTW, I wonder who is sometimes having more fun, the players or their folks?
The reality is that pro ball is a grind and not every player is going to be able to handle the workload even though they've tried to build up the pitchers workloads up more gradually in recent years. Some certainly were damaged in HS and in college, but some just genetically are going to be injured when they take on a pro workload. Fortunately for some of them surgery will provide a long term solution. Others won't be as lucky. The other big factor is that the harder you throw the more likely you are to be injured and there's more hard throwers in pro ball so there are going to be injuries.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
The reality is that pro ball is a grind and not every player is going to be able to handle the workload even though they've tried to build up the pitchers workloads up more gradually in recent years. Some certainly were damaged in HS and in college, but some just genetically are going to be injured when they take on a pro workload. Fortunately for some of them surgery will provide a long term solution. Others won't be as lucky. The other big factor is that the harder you throw the more likely you are to be injured and there's more hard throwers in pro ball so there are going to be injuries.
I am not talking proball. Haven't you ever seen a player get hurt and it disrupts the recruiting process? I am not talking reaching the big league, that happens so far and few between.
Maybe you are not getting my original point, we shouldn't treat or condition young players like they are in proball.
Yes, harder throwers have a tendency to get hurt more often, so why do some work so hard to make their players throw harder?
Risk/reward. Most of the kids who don't throw hard don't ever get seen and don't get a shot at the next level. There are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions.
It was interesting to hear Orel Hershiser say that one of the pitchers in the CWS who was doing very well had little or no shot at going anywhere in pro ball. The pitcher was working in the mid to upper 80s with very good movement on his fastball. His off speed stuff was decent but not spectacular. His fellow announcer was indignant that Orel would say that. Orel explained that pitchers like that sometimes get a chance but very seldom get past A ball. It is a numbers game and the pro's know that the payoff is better going with a lot of kids who throw hard and finding a few who can pitch rather than going with a lot of kids who can pitch and hoping that one or two will be able to pitch even better.
The same happens in college to some degree. A RHP who throws less than 85 isn't going to get a shot unless he's proven to have a lot of pitchability. A far less effective pitcher throwing 90-91 will get a shot.
Of course we shouldn't treat or condition young guys like they are in pro ball. That's why parents need to be involved, to make sure that doesn't happen.
The reality is that there are ways for kids to work on increasing their velocity that are not likely to injure them and some kids can benefit. Now if a kid is throwing 5 to 10 mph harder than any of his peers then it probably isn't worth even a small risk to work on throwing harder and the kid needs to focus on learning how to pitch.
There's nothing wrong with a 10yo playing a bit of long toss as long as it isn't overdone. That is what is good about the interval throwing program. If it hurts you rest a day or two then go back a step in the distance before trying to push it again. At that age it will probably help them learn how to throw harder. At that age they are actually less prone to serious injury than kids who are into their growth spurts.
BTW, you can learn to throw hard and learn how to pitch at the same time. Trevor Bauer is a good example. He built the ability to throw hard but he has also studied pitching and knows how to set up hitters, etc.
It was interesting to hear Orel Hershiser say that one of the pitchers in the CWS who was doing very well had little or no shot at going anywhere in pro ball. The pitcher was working in the mid to upper 80s with very good movement on his fastball. His off speed stuff was decent but not spectacular. His fellow announcer was indignant that Orel would say that. Orel explained that pitchers like that sometimes get a chance but very seldom get past A ball. It is a numbers game and the pro's know that the payoff is better going with a lot of kids who throw hard and finding a few who can pitch rather than going with a lot of kids who can pitch and hoping that one or two will be able to pitch even better.
The same happens in college to some degree. A RHP who throws less than 85 isn't going to get a shot unless he's proven to have a lot of pitchability. A far less effective pitcher throwing 90-91 will get a shot.
Of course we shouldn't treat or condition young guys like they are in pro ball. That's why parents need to be involved, to make sure that doesn't happen.
The reality is that there are ways for kids to work on increasing their velocity that are not likely to injure them and some kids can benefit. Now if a kid is throwing 5 to 10 mph harder than any of his peers then it probably isn't worth even a small risk to work on throwing harder and the kid needs to focus on learning how to pitch.
There's nothing wrong with a 10yo playing a bit of long toss as long as it isn't overdone. That is what is good about the interval throwing program. If it hurts you rest a day or two then go back a step in the distance before trying to push it again. At that age it will probably help them learn how to throw harder. At that age they are actually less prone to serious injury than kids who are into their growth spurts.
BTW, you can learn to throw hard and learn how to pitch at the same time. Trevor Bauer is a good example. He built the ability to throw hard but he has also studied pitching and knows how to set up hitters, etc.
We should listen to yardbird?
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Of course we shouldn't treat or condition young guys like they are in pro ball.
Thank you. That would include anyone, even parents.
Wasn't the original topic Velocity for age 10 ????
Sultan,
Sure, if you've got a serious masochistic streak.
Sure, if you've got a serious masochistic streak.
I'll stick needles in my eyes before I EVER read another yardbird post.
I am pretty sure that pretty much every Dad out there knew what their kid threw velocity wise when they first started throwing. If they didn't, they had a pretty good idea. Sure, we are not going to see guns popping up at little league games- I mean really- when was the last time that guns started showing up behind the backstop at little league games? Not only parents, but the kids themselves want to know what velocity they throw- even at 10 years of age. And we all know the rest of the story....when one kid finds out what he throws it becomes a competition of sorts to see who is the fastest thrower in a group. It's no wonder that speed guns are set up at pretty much every professional ballfield in the country- everyone wants to know what velocity they throw- where they stack up.
From that very first reading on- whether it was at age 9 or age 15, people become obsessed with gaining more velocity. Thats not a bad thing, it eventually breeds into pitchers able to throw upper 90's and living the high life for the select few who can bring it.
Whether we like it or not, little leagues, travel leagues, etc, across the nation are going to continue to be the breeding ground for kids and parents obsessed with gaining more velocity and the endless comparisons between little Johnny and Peter will be the drive for gaining that velocity. There is not a single parent or player out there that has not obsessed to some degree over their velocity from when they first started pitching. Comparisons are also going to continue- even at 10 years old- its perfectly natural to always know where one stacks up.
Even from early ages, once a pitcher has showed some genuine ability, parents and coaches have tried everything in the book to generate the right sequence of teaching, training and coaching to exert the most potential velocity from an arm for the present and the future.
There is a reason we do not see the kids with the weak arms pitch or continue to pitch as they get older. Baseball gradations at each level filter out weak arms and either eliminate them or limit their playability altogether. Parents and kids know this and so the endless drive in youth baseball players to gain velocity will continue. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not! Should we never gun little 10 year old Johnny? Good luck on that happening- kids and/or parents will always find a gun and the comparisons will always be the battleground for gaining velocity.
From that very first reading on- whether it was at age 9 or age 15, people become obsessed with gaining more velocity. Thats not a bad thing, it eventually breeds into pitchers able to throw upper 90's and living the high life for the select few who can bring it.
Whether we like it or not, little leagues, travel leagues, etc, across the nation are going to continue to be the breeding ground for kids and parents obsessed with gaining more velocity and the endless comparisons between little Johnny and Peter will be the drive for gaining that velocity. There is not a single parent or player out there that has not obsessed to some degree over their velocity from when they first started pitching. Comparisons are also going to continue- even at 10 years old- its perfectly natural to always know where one stacks up.
Even from early ages, once a pitcher has showed some genuine ability, parents and coaches have tried everything in the book to generate the right sequence of teaching, training and coaching to exert the most potential velocity from an arm for the present and the future.
There is a reason we do not see the kids with the weak arms pitch or continue to pitch as they get older. Baseball gradations at each level filter out weak arms and either eliminate them or limit their playability altogether. Parents and kids know this and so the endless drive in youth baseball players to gain velocity will continue. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not! Should we never gun little 10 year old Johnny? Good luck on that happening- kids and/or parents will always find a gun and the comparisons will always be the battleground for gaining velocity.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I am pretty sure that pretty much every Dad out there knew what their kid threw velocity wise when they first started throwing. If they didn't, they had a pretty good idea....
...Parents and kids know this and so the endless drive in youth baseball players to gain velocity will continue. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not! Should we never gun little 10 year old Johnny? Good luck on that happening- kids and/or parents will always find a gun and the comparisons will always be the battleground for gaining velocity.
I never knew the velocity of my son's pitch until someone put a gun on him and I watched the results. This was about age 14 when a coach wanted to determine if he wanted him on his 16u team. I did not get concerned about the velocity numbers because I was catching my son in the back yard and at the park and knew how much my hand hurt. I did not need to see the numbers, I knew he was throwing hard.
I do believe, as you point out, that the drive to throw harder at younger ages is why you see more kids at younger ages getting elbow and shoulder surgeries. Even when kids can throw harder I do not believe they should keep pushing that aspect of their abilities until their growth plates have fused to the bone. IMHO this is the point that kids should start "trying" to throw harder.
I never knew what my son threw until he was around 13. I was the pitching coach for his travel teams and somewhere around that time I bought a jugs gun. I used it for tryouts to see what kids were throwing and the velocity difference between FB's and off speed pitches. Once the season started, I used it mid way through the season and at the end of the season to see if there was any progress.
When my son started pitching at 8 through when he was 12, I never knew how hard he threw. The only time I really wondered about it was watching the LLWS. We would sit there and speculate if he threw as hard as those kids did. What we really worked on was him hitting his spots, his mechanics and a change up. He was very effective at that age, without ever knowing how hard he threw.
To be honest with you, even now, at 16, my son is not obsessed with it. He is in the WWBA events at East Cobb. I keep telling him to throw a few hard to post a higher velocity. After the game, I will ask him if he did that and he will tell me no. He just wants to make sure he makes his pitches and is effective during his outings. So far this summer he has been.
I'm not sure everyone is as obsessed as you are GBM.
When my son started pitching at 8 through when he was 12, I never knew how hard he threw. The only time I really wondered about it was watching the LLWS. We would sit there and speculate if he threw as hard as those kids did. What we really worked on was him hitting his spots, his mechanics and a change up. He was very effective at that age, without ever knowing how hard he threw.
To be honest with you, even now, at 16, my son is not obsessed with it. He is in the WWBA events at East Cobb. I keep telling him to throw a few hard to post a higher velocity. After the game, I will ask him if he did that and he will tell me no. He just wants to make sure he makes his pitches and is effective during his outings. So far this summer he has been.
I'm not sure everyone is as obsessed as you are GBM.
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I am pretty sure that pretty much every Dad out there knew what their kid threw velocity wise when they first started throwing. If they didn't, they had a pretty good idea. Sure, we are not going to see guns popping up at little league games- I mean really- when was the last time that guns started showing up behind the backstop at little league games?
Not only parents, but the kids themselves want to know what velocity they throw- even at 10 years of age.
And we all know the rest of the story....when one kid finds out what he throws it becomes a competition of sorts to see who is the fastest thrower in a group.
From that very first reading on- whether it was at age 9 or age 15, people become obsessed with gaining more velocity. Thats not a bad thing, it eventually breeds into pitchers able to throw upper 90's and living the high life for the select few who can bring it.
Whether we like it or not, little leagues, travel leagues, etc, across the nation are going to continue to be the breeding ground for kids and parents obsessed with gaining more velocity and the endless comparisons between little Johnny and Peter will be the drive for gaining that velocity. There is not a single parent or player out there that has not obsessed to some degree over their velocity from when they first started pitching. Comparisons are also going to continue- even at 10 years old- its perfectly natural to always know where one stacks up.
Even from early ages, once a pitcher has showed some genuine ability, parents and coaches have tried everything in the book to generate the right sequence of teaching, training and coaching to exert the most potential velocity from an arm for the present and the future.
There is a reason we do not see the kids with the weak arms pitch or continue to pitch as they get older. Baseball gradations at each level filter out weak arms and either eliminate them or limit their playability altogether. Parents and kids know this and so the endless drive in youth baseball players to gain velocity will continue. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not! Should we never gun little 10 year old Johnny? Good luck on that happening- kids and/or parents will always find a gun and the comparisons will always be the battleground for gaining velocity.
You blow my mind GBM. Parents of 10yr olds sitting at a LL game are NOT curious as to HOW fast a kid is throwing and want to gun him. LOL. Are you for real? They may look and see a kid throws hard and be impressed, but thats it. I honestly don't think I've ever seen or read from anyone on HSBBW that is as obsessed about velocity than you are my friend. It is nuts these things you say.
I knew that younggunson threw harder than most when he was 11-15 yrs old but I could've cared LESS how fast he threw. I, like him and the coaches, just wanted him to get batters out and help the team win.
Should we never gun a little 10yr old? I can't even answer this! This is ludicrous..and I ain't talking about the singer!
You really need to put the gun down and back away from it. I can only imagine how stressed your son may be with your obsession with him throwing harder at a time when he should be focusing on having fun and being consistent (mechanics) with his pitching.
I gunned our LL all-star pitching staff just to see what they were throwing. We had one kid top out at 67, one at 66 the rest at about 64 and one who topped out at about 59 with tons of cut on the ball.
We were facing one of the nation's best teams in the first round and I thought my son matched up best against them but didn't have the guts to start him figuring I might be a bit too biased so I went with one of the 64 mph guys I figured would throw a lot of strikes. He got hammered. I brought in the hardest thrower. He got hammered. I brought in the little soft tosser. He did OK but they found all the holes. I don't think it really mattered who I used in that game. After that we got good performances from all the pitchers picking up 3 or 4 wins before finally losing 2-1 to a kid who was a 5th round draft choice this year on a couple unearned runs.
The gun readings were useful only in that one of the kid's perceived velocity was much higher than the actual velocity. He was the 67 mph guy who now gets up to about 93 and is headed to BYU. That bore out his regular season performance where he absolutely dominated the bottoms of lineups but was hit some by the kids who weren't intimidated. The kid who topped at 66 actually worked 2 or 3 mph slower than the one who topped at 67 and looked even slower but tended to be more effective against the better hitters as he had more movement. He tops out at 87 to 88 these days.
Not surprisingly the little soft tosser was out of the game by HS and the ones who threw the hardest are playing college ball. The 64 mph strike thrower developed a good slider and change in HS and was a fairly effective pitcher topping out at about 82 until he hurt his arm throwing too many sliders. He didn't end up playing in college. Seems interesting that it was the kid who focused on being an effective HS pitcher by developing his slider and not his fastball was the one who ended up out of the game due to injury.
We were facing one of the nation's best teams in the first round and I thought my son matched up best against them but didn't have the guts to start him figuring I might be a bit too biased so I went with one of the 64 mph guys I figured would throw a lot of strikes. He got hammered. I brought in the hardest thrower. He got hammered. I brought in the little soft tosser. He did OK but they found all the holes. I don't think it really mattered who I used in that game. After that we got good performances from all the pitchers picking up 3 or 4 wins before finally losing 2-1 to a kid who was a 5th round draft choice this year on a couple unearned runs.
The gun readings were useful only in that one of the kid's perceived velocity was much higher than the actual velocity. He was the 67 mph guy who now gets up to about 93 and is headed to BYU. That bore out his regular season performance where he absolutely dominated the bottoms of lineups but was hit some by the kids who weren't intimidated. The kid who topped at 66 actually worked 2 or 3 mph slower than the one who topped at 67 and looked even slower but tended to be more effective against the better hitters as he had more movement. He tops out at 87 to 88 these days.
Not surprisingly the little soft tosser was out of the game by HS and the ones who threw the hardest are playing college ball. The 64 mph strike thrower developed a good slider and change in HS and was a fairly effective pitcher topping out at about 82 until he hurt his arm throwing too many sliders. He didn't end up playing in college. Seems interesting that it was the kid who focused on being an effective HS pitcher by developing his slider and not his fastball was the one who ended up out of the game due to injury.
I am thinking about checking into a mental home, since I am clearly an over-obsessed parent. I need to become a nanny and worry about what all the other parents are doing.
I gunned my kid from about 11yo. I even gunned him every day he did bullpens. (You learn to catch with one hand and gun with the other). We would try things we read about and see if they worked - or not.
I also gunned the other pitchers on his teams during practices and games. After the first reading, the kids stopped paying attention to the gun.
They all still pitch and no pitchers were hurt.
I do not gun him in HS games, though. (I don't want his coach to know I'm obsessed)
Guns are great for:
- trying out techniques (in one day, he threw 3 mph faster just by lengthening his stride)
- watch for 3-5 mph speed drop during a game (may be sore/hurt/tired)
- make sure changeups and breaking pitches have enough speed difference (CU 8 mph slower than FB, etc.)
- make sure he is not slowing up his delivery for offspeed pitch (60 mph CU, not 55 mph)
- gun opposing team pitchers and throw BP at that speed (if it's significantly faster or slower)
I gunned my kid from about 11yo. I even gunned him every day he did bullpens. (You learn to catch with one hand and gun with the other
). We would try things we read about and see if they worked - or not.I also gunned the other pitchers on his teams during practices and games. After the first reading, the kids stopped paying attention to the gun.
They all still pitch and no pitchers were hurt.
I do not gun him in HS games, though. (I don't want his coach to know I'm obsessed)
Guns are great for:
- trying out techniques (in one day, he threw 3 mph faster just by lengthening his stride)
- watch for 3-5 mph speed drop during a game (may be sore/hurt/tired)
- make sure changeups and breaking pitches have enough speed difference (CU 8 mph slower than FB, etc.)
- make sure he is not slowing up his delivery for offspeed pitch (60 mph CU, not 55 mph)
- gun opposing team pitchers and throw BP at that speed (if it's significantly faster or slower)
When my son pitched at stadiums with guns this spring I looked to see what he was throwing. The obsession never ends.
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I am pretty sure that pretty much every Dad out there knew what their kid threw velocity wise when they first started throwing. If they didn't, they had a pretty good idea. Sure, we are not going to see guns popping up at little league games- I mean really- when was the last time that guns started showing up behind the backstop at little league games?
Not only parents, but the kids themselves want to know what velocity they throw- even at 10 years of age.
And we all know the rest of the story....when one kid finds out what he throws it becomes a competition of sorts to see who is the fastest thrower in a group.
From that very first reading on- whether it was at age 9 or age 15, people become obsessed with gaining more velocity. Thats not a bad thing, it eventually breeds into pitchers able to throw upper 90's and living the high life for the select few who can bring it.
Whether we like it or not, little leagues, travel leagues, etc, across the nation are going to continue to be the breeding ground for kids and parents obsessed with gaining more velocity and the endless comparisons between little Johnny and Peter will be the drive for gaining that velocity. There is not a single parent or player out there that has not obsessed to some degree over their velocity from when they first started pitching. Comparisons are also going to continue- even at 10 years old- its perfectly natural to always know where one stacks up.
Even from early ages, once a pitcher has showed some genuine ability, parents and coaches have tried everything in the book to generate the right sequence of teaching, training and coaching to exert the most potential velocity from an arm for the present and the future.
There is a reason we do not see the kids with the weak arms pitch or continue to pitch as they get older. Baseball gradations at each level filter out weak arms and either eliminate them or limit their playability altogether. Parents and kids know this and so the endless drive in youth baseball players to gain velocity will continue. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not! Should we never gun little 10 year old Johnny? Good luck on that happening- kids and/or parents will always find a gun and the comparisons will always be the battleground for gaining velocity.
You blow my mind GBM. Parents of 10yr olds sitting at a LL game are NOT curious as to HOW fast a kid is throwing and want to gun him. LOL. Are you for real? They may look and see a kid throws hard and be impressed, but thats it. I honestly don't think I've ever seen or read from anyone on HSBBW that is as obsessed about velocity than you are my friend. It is nuts these things you say.
I knew that younggunson threw harder than most when he was 11-15 yrs old but I could've cared LESS how fast he threw. I, like him and the coaches, just wanted him to get batters out and help the team win.
Should we never gun a little 10yr old? I can't even answer this! This is ludicrous..and I ain't talking about the singer!
You really need to put the gun down and back away from it. I can only imagine how stressed your son may be with your obsession with him throwing harder at a time when he should be focusing on having fun and being consistent (mechanics) with his pitching.
I don't know of any pitcher that has pitched at least 1-2 seasons, and were good, that didn't have an idea or knowledge of what velocity their arm was capable of. Just as a sprinter knows his time, a pitcher should also know his time. Just ask any young baseball player if they have ever thrown in front of a gun either in a game, at a carnival, at a professional ballpark, etc, and they will just about for sure tell you they have. Havene't you ever been to a little league game and overheard the young kids bragging about how fast so and so is or how fast they are? Kids are actually more obsessed than parents- its bragging rights for them.
You may think I have this undue obsession with my sons velocity. Guess what? I don't even own a gun. The only time he gets gunned is when he goes to a camp (yes they gun every pitcher regardless of age), tryout, or when someone else guns him at a game curious to know what he is throwing. Is velocity important? Yes it is, otherwise we should just get the kids that can place pitches over the plate and have them be the pitchers.
The way it has always worked and will continue to work is that the hard throwers will always get the 1st nod on the mound- that is how important velocity is. And someone will always know or want to know "how fast" a pitcher throws.
I have documented how my son has progressed since he was 10 both on mechanics and velocity. And from a little research on the web, so has pretty much everyone else. So I guess we are all a little obsessed with velocity.
I will tell you this much- they do gun every pitch at the LLWS. Now why would they do that if everyone in the country wasn't at least partially interested in how fast they were throwing?
GBM, I don't think anyone is saying that the baseball world is not obsessed with velocity. I don't think anyone is saying that kids aren't competitive. At least what I am saying is that prior to a certain point, velocity should not be so important. These kids should be working on developing solid, repeatable mechanics so that when their bodies are capable of throwing at higher velocities, they will have a better chance of remaining injury free.
I also think that how hard a kid throws at an early age does not necessarily translate into how hard they will be throwing at an advanced age.
I think people are also saying that your son is not old enough to know for sure whether what you are doing will work. Your method of just telling your son to "throw harder" and do full out bullpens as often as you do is out of the norm of what is taught. At 14, you just don't know if it will help or hurt in the long run. Wait till your son is 16-18 and unhurt, then you can say how well your methods have worked.
I also think that how hard a kid throws at an early age does not necessarily translate into how hard they will be throwing at an advanced age.
I think people are also saying that your son is not old enough to know for sure whether what you are doing will work. Your method of just telling your son to "throw harder" and do full out bullpens as often as you do is out of the norm of what is taught. At 14, you just don't know if it will help or hurt in the long run. Wait till your son is 16-18 and unhurt, then you can say how well your methods have worked.
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I don't know of any pitcher that has pitched at least 1-2 seasons, and were good, that didn't have an idea or knowledge of what velocity their arm was capable of. Just as a sprinter knows his time, a pitcher should also know his time. Just ask any young baseball player if they have ever thrown in front of a gun either in a game, at a carnival, at a professional ballpark, etc, and they will just about for sure tell you they have.
Yes, for maybe 16yr olds and up. But not any 10yr olds...LOL.
Havene't you ever been to a little league game and overheard the young kids bragging about how fast so and so is or how fast they are?
I can honestly answer no to this without hesitation.
Kids are actually more obsessed than parents- its bragging rights for them.
So you're telling me that a bunch of 10yr olds are behind the backstop wondering how fast little Billy is pitching AND wishing they threw that hard? That's a riot! LOL. If you went up and just listened, they are probably talking about how big of a bullfrog they caught or if they watched the latest episode of Power Rangers. LOL
You may think I have this undue obsession with my sons velocity. Guess what? I don't even own a gun.
You don't need a gun to put the amount of stress you probably are on your son. I can guarantee that he knows when he picks up his mitt and a ball that Dad is going to focus on that velocity. Now I'm talking about a boy who is 10 in these situations, not 14 and older. But even at 14 velocity should only be 1 of many things that should be focused on.
The way it has always worked and will continue to work is that the hard throwers will always get the 1st nod on the mound- that is how important velocity is. And someone will always know or want to know "how fast" a pitcher throws.
Sometimes I wonder if you say things just because they pop in your head or what. Where on earth do you get this philosophy from? Not everyone believe it or not is as obsessed about velocity as you so no, it will NOT always get the nod first. And just because a kid throws hard will someone want to know HOW fast he is pitching. Yes they will make an observation that he throws hard but not enough to find out.
I have documented how my son has progressed since he was 10 both on mechanics and velocity. And from a little research on the web, so has pretty much everyone else. So I guess we are all a little obsessed with velocity.
GBM, do you honestly believe that we're going to sit here and believe that you have actually documented your son's pitching velocity AND mechanics since he was 10? You can make a point without having to go over the top with it. And what kind of research on the web gives you the actual fact that everyone else has done it? No my friend, only you from what I can tell is as obsessed with this velocity topic this badly. And I do mean, badly. It's off the charts
I will tell you this much- they do gun every pitch at the LLWS. Now why would they do that if everyone in the country wasn't at least partially interested in how fast they were throwing?
I watch the LLWS each year and realize they do time the kids. But I'm sure it's because it's on National TV for the most part. I don't care how hard a 12yr old is throwing. I can tell he is throwing hard if he pitches and the batters whiff at it. I'm more impressed of the command and consistency than anything else. I bet you'd go bonkers if they didn't have the velocities popping up on TV during the LLWS each year..lol.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
GBM, I don't think anyone is saying that the baseball world is not obsessed with velocity. I don't think anyone is saying that kids aren't competitive. At least what I am saying is that prior to a certain point, velocity should not be so important. These kids should be working on developing solid, repeatable mechanics so that when their bodies are capable of throwing at higher velocities, they will have a better chance of remaining injury free.
I also think that how hard a kid throws at an early age does not necessarily translate into how hard they will be throwing at an advanced age.
I think people are also saying that your son is not old enough to know for sure whether what you are doing will work. Your method of just telling your son to "throw harder" and do full out bullpens as often as you do is out of the norm of what is taught. At 14, you just don't know if it will help or hurt in the long run. Wait till your son is 16-18 and unhurt, then you can say how well your methods have worked.
I am not teaching my son to go out and throw his hardest. I am teaching him to maintain a decent velocity and not fall into the trap of placing it.
Velocity is important to work on even from an early age- not that it should be the main focus at 10 years of age, but that when they do start throwing they need to work on arm strength which basically equates to velocity. Good mechanics go hand in hand with velocity, so if one works on his mechanics, in reality he is working on his velocity whether he realizes it or not.
As for bullpens which i have always maintained to be short (30-40 pitches) at every other day is not a hard thing nor is it overdoing it. That is perfectly normal for 13-14 year old travel teams.
Younggundad,
are you trying to tell mw that you have never went to an event where they had a gun set up and didn't see any 10 year olds seeing how hard they throw? If that is the case you must live on Mars.
You can't be serious that LL kids do not wonder what velocity they or their teamates pitch at. Thats ridiculous.
As far as I can tell, from this board, that velocity is as much or more of a focal point than any other subject in developing baseball players.
are you trying to tell mw that you have never went to an event where they had a gun set up and didn't see any 10 year olds seeing how hard they throw? If that is the case you must live on Mars.
You can't be serious that LL kids do not wonder what velocity they or their teamates pitch at. Thats ridiculous.
As far as I can tell, from this board, that velocity is as much or more of a focal point than any other subject in developing baseball players.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
As for bullpens which i have always maintained to be short (30-40 pitches) at every other day is not a hard thing nor is it overdoing it. That is perfectly normal for 13-14 year old travel teams.
Sorry, but I don't think that is normal. If you pitch in a game, you should take a minimum of 3 days off from mound work. You should also not throw a bullpen the day before you pitch. I don't see how you can throw a bullpen everyother day. That is too much throwing from a mound. During our season, which basically runs from March thru the end of July, we are lucky to get in one bullpen per week between starts. Usually want to make sure his arm is plenty rested before next start. He will do long toss, but not a lot of bull pen work.
I guess it's true, if you have it you don't worry about it, it you don't you do.
CADad, lucky you weren't son's little league coach, Mr. TPM would have pulled his son out the next day. Did you put the radar gun on them to see how hard they were throwing or how hard your son was throwing? BTW, wondering if all that you may have done with your obsession with velocity worked out for yor player actually made him throw harder?
I find it interesting that you have all teh answers but come on to ask why son's velocity can vary at times, is that a real question or do you want us to know how he is doing?
About the statement regarding having to pitch 90 to get consideration, there is a pitcher drafted by the Cards, I think out of college he was just hitting 87-88. He is now considered a true prospect in the organization, check out PJ Walters, he's on the 40 man roster and I think he hits 91-92 max now. There are a few other pitchers who when they came into the organization were not hitting 90, now they are and having success at the level they are at, not sure what that will translate into, but that is not what they were at when drafted but what some are now. As you said yourself it's about pitchability and IMO future projection more than anything. These kids obviuosly didn';t hit that majic number but got opportunities, why do you suppose that is?
GBM, we didn't care and son didn't care what he was throwing, the guns on the LLWS players makes me sick. I don't even watch it. Hey, didn't Dr. Andrews say that using the velocity gun on young player only makes them throw harder when they shouldn't (yes many pitch to the gun), and this could cause injury. I understand your point on having parental control to avoid injury, but in reality IMO, most parents end up causing problems as well as their coaches, over bearing trainers, etc. You can do as you wish with your own player, that's your business. But don't try to convince others this is what works, that is what is working at 14 not what may be at 19-20, 24 or 25.
The only time we were concerned with son's velocity was senior year in HS, because we got all caught up in that hoopla (like most folks do), in the end it didn't mean anything because he was off to school, where he gained more meaningful velocity. Lessons learned. The only reason we, he or they care about it now is because loss of velocity can signal injury. Don't think because this is your obsession it's others. We never did endless comparisons, that isn't and wasn't important. Actually if I think back, he hit 90 in HS while others were hitting higher, FWIW they aren't playing anymore. It is not perfectly natural to know where you stack up at 10, unless your dad has placed an importance on how you stack up.
GBM your statment, about being obsessed with gaining more velocity "because it breeds ( ugh that choice of word, BREED) into pitchers able to throw upper 90's and living the high life for the select few who can bring it". I think that is where the problem lies, too many people chasing dreams for their kids. They just do a lot of watching baseball at the highest level and dream, where they would like to see their player someday or how the young player says he wasnts to play proball someday, young players have no clue, nor do their parents. I'll bet you stay up at night thinking about how to spend his money!
BTW, I don't think that you have any idea even what it is to hit 85, 90 let alone 98. Most of the time, this comes naturally to most of those who do. You will see significant gains as your son develops and matures, don't panic the day it stops. Our sons biggest came in college, and a few more afterwards, mostly nore power in the legs and core and lower body, again the power does not come from the arm, but you don't get that.
By the way, we really should focus more on raising kids rather than breeding pitchers, shouldn't we?
CADad, lucky you weren't son's little league coach, Mr. TPM would have pulled his son out the next day. Did you put the radar gun on them to see how hard they were throwing or how hard your son was throwing? BTW, wondering if all that you may have done with your obsession with velocity worked out for yor player actually made him throw harder?
I find it interesting that you have all teh answers but come on to ask why son's velocity can vary at times, is that a real question or do you want us to know how he is doing?
About the statement regarding having to pitch 90 to get consideration, there is a pitcher drafted by the Cards, I think out of college he was just hitting 87-88. He is now considered a true prospect in the organization, check out PJ Walters, he's on the 40 man roster and I think he hits 91-92 max now. There are a few other pitchers who when they came into the organization were not hitting 90, now they are and having success at the level they are at, not sure what that will translate into, but that is not what they were at when drafted but what some are now. As you said yourself it's about pitchability and IMO future projection more than anything. These kids obviuosly didn';t hit that majic number but got opportunities, why do you suppose that is?
GBM, we didn't care and son didn't care what he was throwing, the guns on the LLWS players makes me sick. I don't even watch it. Hey, didn't Dr. Andrews say that using the velocity gun on young player only makes them throw harder when they shouldn't (yes many pitch to the gun), and this could cause injury. I understand your point on having parental control to avoid injury, but in reality IMO, most parents end up causing problems as well as their coaches, over bearing trainers, etc. You can do as you wish with your own player, that's your business. But don't try to convince others this is what works, that is what is working at 14 not what may be at 19-20, 24 or 25.
The only time we were concerned with son's velocity was senior year in HS, because we got all caught up in that hoopla (like most folks do), in the end it didn't mean anything because he was off to school, where he gained more meaningful velocity. Lessons learned. The only reason we, he or they care about it now is because loss of velocity can signal injury. Don't think because this is your obsession it's others. We never did endless comparisons, that isn't and wasn't important. Actually if I think back, he hit 90 in HS while others were hitting higher, FWIW they aren't playing anymore. It is not perfectly natural to know where you stack up at 10, unless your dad has placed an importance on how you stack up.
GBM your statment, about being obsessed with gaining more velocity "because it breeds ( ugh that choice of word, BREED) into pitchers able to throw upper 90's and living the high life for the select few who can bring it". I think that is where the problem lies, too many people chasing dreams for their kids. They just do a lot of watching baseball at the highest level and dream, where they would like to see their player someday or how the young player says he wasnts to play proball someday, young players have no clue, nor do their parents. I'll bet you stay up at night thinking about how to spend his money!
BTW, I don't think that you have any idea even what it is to hit 85, 90 let alone 98. Most of the time, this comes naturally to most of those who do. You will see significant gains as your son develops and matures, don't panic the day it stops. Our sons biggest came in college, and a few more afterwards, mostly nore power in the legs and core and lower body, again the power does not come from the arm, but you don't get that.
By the way, we really should focus more on raising kids rather than breeding pitchers, shouldn't we?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
By the way, we really should focus more on raising kids rather than breeding pitchers, shouldn't we?
I have not read much in this thread but it makes me sick to my stomach to think anyone is worried about pitching velo at age 10. They should be chasing frogs (or some other slimy creature) & messing around with their friends in their neighborhood. As far as sports is should be baseball in baseball season, basketball in bb season, etc etc etc (all league in their community)
quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
As for bullpens which i have always maintained to be short (30-40 pitches) at every other day is not a hard thing nor is it overdoing it. That is perfectly normal for 13-14 year old travel teams.
Sorry, but I don't think that is normal. If you pitch in a game, you should take a minimum of 3 days off from mound work. You should also not throw a bullpen the day before you pitch. I don't see how you can throw a bullpen everyother day. That is too much throwing from a mound. During our season, which basically runs from March thru the end of July, we are lucky to get in one bullpen per week between starts. Usually want to make sure his arm is plenty rested before next start. He will do long toss, but not a lot of bull pen work.
I am curious to know how much pitching off a mound a middle reliever or closer does in the majors? I am guessing that they throw off a mound pretty much at least every other day if not more and when they do come into a game that they do not take 3 days off before taking to it again. I am not speaking of long outings, I am speaking about pitching in short reps often enough (every other day). Arm pain would obviously be a signal of too much pitching. So, in my sons case, if he complains of no pain is that an ok to let him throw or should I prohibit him from all throwing? Just curious.
Do not compare the 10 to 13 year old to MLB players---two totally different animals---
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Do not compare the 10 to 13 year old to MLB players---two totally different animals---
No, just smaller animals of the same. They use bats, son uses bats. They throw from an elevated mound, son throws from an elevated mound. They play on 60/90, son plays on 60/90. They have "fastballs" and "Breaking balls", son has fastball and breaking ball.
I do not understand thus what you mean. Son does the same thing they do, just on a smaller scale.
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Younggundad,
are you trying to tell mw that you have never went to an event where they had a gun set up and didn't see any 10 year olds seeing how hard they throw? If that is the case you must live on Mars.
That's exactly what I am telling you. Not trying. Not 1 gun has ever been around a 10yr old game Ive been to. Well, maybe a toy gun.
You can't be serious that LL kids do not wonder what velocity they or their teamates pitch at. Thats ridiculous.
No. Not ridiculous at all. A reality. You keep pounding the same drum and I keep telling you that not every kid in America cares how FAST another is throwing. Who cares for pete sake?!
As far as I can tell, from this board, that velocity is as much or more of a focal point than any other subject in developing baseball players.
You keep throwing the baby out with the bath water every time you reply back. Yes velocity is a well versed topic here on HSBBW, however, 99.9% of the time it's in the context of 16yr olds and up. And to narrow it on down it's more about those kids who are looking to finding a college after HS or players hoping to get drafted.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
As for bullpens which i have always maintained to be short (30-40 pitches) at every other day is not a hard thing nor is it overdoing it. That is perfectly normal for 13-14 year old travel teams.
Sorry, but I don't think that is normal. If you pitch in a game, you should take a minimum of 3 days off from mound work. You should also not throw a bullpen the day before you pitch. I don't see how you can throw a bullpen everyother day. That is too much throwing from a mound. During our season, which basically runs from March thru the end of July, we are lucky to get in one bullpen per week between starts. Usually want to make sure his arm is plenty rested before next start. He will do long toss, but not a lot of bull pen work.
I am curious to know how much pitching off a mound a middle reliever or closer does in the majors? I am guessing that they throw off a mound pretty much at least every other day if not more and when they do come into a game that they do not take 3 days off before taking to it again. I am not speaking of long outings, I am speaking about pitching in short reps often enough (every other day). Arm pain would obviously be a signal of too much pitching. So, in my sons case, if he complains of no pain is that an ok to let him throw or should I prohibit him from all throwing? Just curious.
This is where you don't get it, as TR says, and we all have said, you cannot compare young pitchers to what grown men get paid to do.
Not having arm pain doesn't signal that everything is ok, sometimes it just hits you all at one time, that's what this is all about. What you do today affects you down the road.
Pitching from the mound too often is not good, but these guys are trained and conditioned as releivers or starters to do that by professionals getting paid to do so. Some pro relievers will "throw" a pen if they haven't put in enough time that week, same for a closer, others just throw from flat ground, but the philosophy is always the same, save the bullets. All toss everyday except for pitching day.
This is the point, you derive your "training" for your young son from what grown men do, that's where you are making a HUGE mistake.
The pitching nannies are out in full force today.
GMan, they are not listening or reading your posts.
TPM, please. You have crossed over from trying to convince someone, to just being plain vicious.
Also:
He does say this (or ASMI does). He has shown no scientific evidence for this wive's tale, either. I will wager that nobody here has ever heard of a kid being injured by a radar gun.
quote:Gman - I am not teaching my son to go out and throw his hardest. I am teaching him to maintain a decent velocity and not fall into the trap of placing it.
GMan, they are not listening or reading your posts.
quote:TPM - I'll bet you stay up at night thinking about how to spend his money!
TPM, please. You have crossed over from trying to convince someone, to just being plain vicious.
Also:
quote:didn't Dr. Andrews say that using the velocity gun on young player only makes them throw harder when they shouldn't (yes many pitch to the gun), and this could cause injury
He does say this (or ASMI does). He has shown no scientific evidence for this wive's tale, either. I will wager that nobody here has ever heard of a kid being injured by a radar gun.
TPM,
Really, you make no sense. Who do we go to for advice and training at the highest level in baseball? Maybe you have forgot but when you go to a baseball camp, the instructors are usually retired professional ballplayers. And what do they instruct? Certainly not ring-around-the-rosie! No, they teach the same drills they teach their full time players.
We went to a camp last winter and the first day they had them stretch and throw for about an hour to get loosened up. Then they took them back and did some band-work. Then they took them on the various mounds set up and let them throw their bullpen while they video-taped them. The next day they did the same sequence all over again only the bullpens were really short. the last day they did it all again and this time gunned them. The emphasis they taught was conditioning the body to be able to throw a lot and be protected by a stronger all around muscular build and shape of the body.
Now I don't know about you but from what I gathered, they were teaching these young pitchers the same exact drills and routine they teach for their various colleges and pro-ball teams. So take your "huge mistake" complaint to the professional level. I found it interesting that what I had been teaching my son was exactly what the professionals were teaching to youth pitchers. They emphasised over and over agin about stretching and other various drills that built the right muscles to be able to throw a baseball without pain and a reduction in possible injury
Really, you make no sense. Who do we go to for advice and training at the highest level in baseball? Maybe you have forgot but when you go to a baseball camp, the instructors are usually retired professional ballplayers. And what do they instruct? Certainly not ring-around-the-rosie! No, they teach the same drills they teach their full time players.
We went to a camp last winter and the first day they had them stretch and throw for about an hour to get loosened up. Then they took them back and did some band-work. Then they took them on the various mounds set up and let them throw their bullpen while they video-taped them. The next day they did the same sequence all over again only the bullpens were really short. the last day they did it all again and this time gunned them. The emphasis they taught was conditioning the body to be able to throw a lot and be protected by a stronger all around muscular build and shape of the body.
Now I don't know about you but from what I gathered, they were teaching these young pitchers the same exact drills and routine they teach for their various colleges and pro-ball teams. So take your "huge mistake" complaint to the professional level. I found it interesting that what I had been teaching my son was exactly what the professionals were teaching to youth pitchers. They emphasised over and over agin about stretching and other various drills that built the right muscles to be able to throw a baseball without pain and a reduction in possible injury
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
The pitching nannies are out in full force today.
[QUOTE]
Gee, I wonder why Swat.
GBM:
I may get hammered on this but....always be concerned with your kids velocity- even at 10. I worked with my kid since he was 10 on throwing strikes while maitaining a high velocity. I taught him early that when he is struggling to find the zone that throwing a little harder will help him locate it better.
There is nothing wrong with pitching at an early age or throwing hard at an early age.
Lets be honest, velocity, even at an early age, is what draws those kids into being pitchers
What I have taught my son about pounding the strike zone with decent velocity works.
everyone wants to know what velocity they throw
Is velocity important? Yes it is
hard throwers will always get the 1st nod on the mound- that is how important velocity is. And someone will always know or want to know "how fast" a pitcher throws.
I guess we are all a little obsessed with velocity.
Velocity is important to work on even from an early age
that velocity is as much or more of a focal point than any other subject in developing baseball players
Can you see the trend here Swat or shall I go on? You seem to be the bright one here so surely you can "get it" now.
So yes, we ARE reading and listening to his posts but sometimes common sense just doesn't sink it, now does it Swat? Hello, Mcfly....?!
TPM's comment wasn't "vicious" as you so eloquently stated. Her remark to him was dead on in hopes that he just MIGHT see how obsessed he is with trying to further his son's success while compromising his health along the way.
And your remark about what Dr. Andrews is saying about pitching to the radar guns is childish at best. He probably more than anyone in the U.S. is very aware of what young arms go through when overworked or mistreated. The radar guns are the culprit while the young arms are the victims.
Your personal vendetta against TPM is tiring and growing quite old. Either choose to ignore what you read by her and move on or quit trying to continue attacking her here as an adult would do.
YGD
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
The pitching nannies are out in full force today.
[QUOTE]
Gee, I wonder why Swat.
GBM:
I may get hammered on this but....always be concerned with your kids velocity- even at 10. I worked with my kid since he was 10 on throwing strikes while maitaining a high velocity. I taught him early that when he is struggling to find the zone that throwing a little harder will help him locate it better.
There is nothing wrong with pitching at an early age or throwing hard at an early age.
Lets be honest, velocity, even at an early age, is what draws those kids into being pitchers
What I have taught my son about pounding the strike zone with decent velocity works.
everyone wants to know what velocity they throw
Is velocity important? Yes it is
hard throwers will always get the 1st nod on the mound- that is how important velocity is. And someone will always know or want to know "how fast" a pitcher throws.
I guess we are all a little obsessed with velocity.
Velocity is important to work on even from an early age
that velocity is as much or more of a focal point than any other subject in developing baseball players
Can you see the trend here Swat or shall I go on? You seem to be the bright one here so surely you can "get it" now.
So yes, we ARE reading and listening to his posts but sometimes common sense just doesn't sink it, now does it Swat? Hello, Mcfly....?!
TPM's comment wasn't "vicious" as you so eloquently stated. Her remark to him was dead on in hopes that he just MIGHT see how obsessed he is with trying to further his son's success while compromising his health along the way.
And your remark about what Dr. Andrews is saying about pitching to the radar guns is childish at best. He probably more than anyone in the U.S. is very aware of what young arms go through when overworked or mistreated. The radar guns are the culprit while the young arms are the victims.
Your personal vendetta against TPM is tiring and growing quite old. Either choose to ignore what you read by her and move on or quit trying to continue attacking her here as an adult would do.
YGD
To me, there are pretty clear cut distinctions to be appreciated:
1.) If anyone is going to compare pitching as a 14 year old with what happens to relief pitchers in MLB, they need to go to the offices of Dr. Andrews, visit training rooms, check the 7 day, 15 day and 60 day DL and have a full understanding of the number of MLB pitchers having arm problems.
2.) Anyone who is the parent of a 14 year old needs to fully appreciate how pitchers are handled in Milb, when they are not making big dollars but have potential. Some of those guys are pitching one to two innings every 4-6 days, are on pitch counts, are icing, doing stim and are following every team mandated requirements to protect their arms.
3.) Every one of our sons, before they get to college, trust their parent to make the best decisions for their health and the protection of their arm. It strikes me as unbelievable that those who have been through the entire process are being ridiculed and accused of being "vicious" for offering opinions based on experience, the experience of having son's compete at the highest levels of college and Milb.
Every parent is a trustee for the health of their son until their son is in a position to make those decisions for themselves. Having been through college, Milb and the like provides experience.
Having been in training rooms, doctor's offices and the life provides experience and reference points.
If anyone with a 14 year old wants to use MLB pitchers as a reference and comparison point, they need to spend one week at the Andrews group or Kerlan-Jobe and watch the number of Milb and MLB pitchers coming through with arm issues.
If a parent is truly the trustee of the baseball health of their son, it is time to head to the doctors offices and see the downside of the DL. They show all those suffering arm injuries in Baseball America... in small print.
They don't show it on Fox or ESPN.
1.) If anyone is going to compare pitching as a 14 year old with what happens to relief pitchers in MLB, they need to go to the offices of Dr. Andrews, visit training rooms, check the 7 day, 15 day and 60 day DL and have a full understanding of the number of MLB pitchers having arm problems.
2.) Anyone who is the parent of a 14 year old needs to fully appreciate how pitchers are handled in Milb, when they are not making big dollars but have potential. Some of those guys are pitching one to two innings every 4-6 days, are on pitch counts, are icing, doing stim and are following every team mandated requirements to protect their arms.
3.) Every one of our sons, before they get to college, trust their parent to make the best decisions for their health and the protection of their arm. It strikes me as unbelievable that those who have been through the entire process are being ridiculed and accused of being "vicious" for offering opinions based on experience, the experience of having son's compete at the highest levels of college and Milb.
Every parent is a trustee for the health of their son until their son is in a position to make those decisions for themselves. Having been through college, Milb and the like provides experience.
Having been in training rooms, doctor's offices and the life provides experience and reference points.
If anyone with a 14 year old wants to use MLB pitchers as a reference and comparison point, they need to spend one week at the Andrews group or Kerlan-Jobe and watch the number of Milb and MLB pitchers coming through with arm issues.
If a parent is truly the trustee of the baseball health of their son, it is time to head to the doctors offices and see the downside of the DL. They show all those suffering arm injuries in Baseball America... in small print.
They don't show it on Fox or ESPN.
TPM,
Gee, I'm sorry I gunned the 12yo kids at one practice for 3 or 4 pitches apiece and told them they had to throw strikes to hear what their velocity was. None of my pitchers ever hurt their arms while they were pitching for me. Over a 5 game LL all-star tournament no pitcher threw more than 7 innings. 3 kids off that LL staff are pitching in college. I had one parent complain because I wouldn't call enough curves. I told the dad his kid had potential and needed to throw his fastball, develop a change and not throw curves. The same parent was quite happy a few years later when I called a scout I knew over to see the kid throwing up to 89 as a HS junior. He's the one who is up to 93 now. Oh, BTW when my son was young we had him do some very limited weighted ball training using the Bagonzi approach which was mostly flipping the ball with the wrist and only light throwing with the 6oz weighted ball. He picked up 2 mph over 9 weeks. It made for an award winning science project. There was another dad on this site who worked with both of his kids on velocity starting from an early age. One was the national youth player of the year and the other less known boy is at a major D1. Both throw well over 90.
Your insults and the airs you put on get old. You insist that nobody talks about your son or the clip of him that is public domain and then you use him to back up your arguments on a regular basis. No I didn't gun them to see what my son was throwing. His pitching instructor at the time, who was the Weaver's coach when they were young, gunned him and had him throw a few hard pitches at the end of every lesson. Them poor Weaver boys getting gunned when they were young. It sure ruined them.
BTW, back off saying things about my son. People have shared a few things about your son with me that I've kept to myself.
We've played baseball. We have been through it ourselves. We've suffered the sore arms and been in front of the scouts ourselves. I threw a pen for the Lachemann brothers when I was playing rookie ball for the Angels and didn't have enough velocity to interest them. The next pen I threw hard and didn't worry about control. All of a sudden they noticed me. I know exactly how important velocity is to someone who doesn't have it. I had the best stats by far on my legion team. The other two pitchers threw harder. 1 was drafted in the 4th round and the other pitched in the big leagues. The scouts were right. They had more potential.
I'm happy for the kid who got a chance, he was an exception and he was projectable or he wouldn't have gotten the chance. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if this is his information off the PG site
Those PG guys are pretty good at what they do.
Kids have to learn how to pitch and they have to learn how to throw hard. The two are not exclusive.
GBM,
I believe 30 to 40 pitch pens every other day is a bit too much for most pitchers at almost any level. TPM is right that most organizations use a mixture of long toss, flat grounds and pens to keep pitchers sharp and their arms reasonably safe.
JMO, but pitchers need a minimum of two days rest at least once a week. Muscles can recover on one day's rest for a while but tendons and ligaments recover much more slowly and eventually can be injured by throwing hard every other day. Those injuries can take a long time to show up but they can be quite serious when they do show up. When the Cardinals scout team run by Chuck Fick was working with my son on his pitching they insisted that work on developing his velocity as well as on his pitchability but they certainly didn't have him throwing pens every other day. I wasn't there but I believe a typical week included one long toss session followed by a flatground, one pen and one short pitching stint. They did gun him every time he pitched. Interestingly enough both his control and his velocity improved. Flatgrounds by themselves are almost useless but when used as an adjunct to bullpens they can be very useful in allowing pitchers to work on things without stressing their arm as much.
Gee, I'm sorry I gunned the 12yo kids at one practice for 3 or 4 pitches apiece and told them they had to throw strikes to hear what their velocity was. None of my pitchers ever hurt their arms while they were pitching for me. Over a 5 game LL all-star tournament no pitcher threw more than 7 innings. 3 kids off that LL staff are pitching in college. I had one parent complain because I wouldn't call enough curves. I told the dad his kid had potential and needed to throw his fastball, develop a change and not throw curves. The same parent was quite happy a few years later when I called a scout I knew over to see the kid throwing up to 89 as a HS junior. He's the one who is up to 93 now. Oh, BTW when my son was young we had him do some very limited weighted ball training using the Bagonzi approach which was mostly flipping the ball with the wrist and only light throwing with the 6oz weighted ball. He picked up 2 mph over 9 weeks. It made for an award winning science project. There was another dad on this site who worked with both of his kids on velocity starting from an early age. One was the national youth player of the year and the other less known boy is at a major D1. Both throw well over 90.
Your insults and the airs you put on get old. You insist that nobody talks about your son or the clip of him that is public domain and then you use him to back up your arguments on a regular basis. No I didn't gun them to see what my son was throwing. His pitching instructor at the time, who was the Weaver's coach when they were young, gunned him and had him throw a few hard pitches at the end of every lesson. Them poor Weaver boys getting gunned when they were young. It sure ruined them.
BTW, back off saying things about my son. People have shared a few things about your son with me that I've kept to myself.
We've played baseball. We have been through it ourselves. We've suffered the sore arms and been in front of the scouts ourselves. I threw a pen for the Lachemann brothers when I was playing rookie ball for the Angels and didn't have enough velocity to interest them. The next pen I threw hard and didn't worry about control. All of a sudden they noticed me. I know exactly how important velocity is to someone who doesn't have it. I had the best stats by far on my legion team. The other two pitchers threw harder. 1 was drafted in the 4th round and the other pitched in the big leagues. The scouts were right. They had more potential.
I'm happy for the kid who got a chance, he was an exception and he was projectable or he wouldn't have gotten the chance. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if this is his information off the PG site
quote:Walters is a tall RHP/3B with lots of body to grow into. He projects in a big way and he could really be something special in a few years. He already flashes border line tools and a feel for the game. He does everything fairly well, but hasn't developed that one tool that stands out as a MLB plus. He is athletic and he is a tall lanky guy. He throws well, runs well and has nice actions. He can hit and he projects to hit with big time power. He has a great approach, very quiet. He throws in the 80s sometimes much better from the mound. He has a very good sharp breaking ball that breaks late. He can pitch and might end up being a professional pitcher. As you can see, Walters does everything real good. And he projects real good. If all those tools go up a grade, he's a real good draft pick. He might be anyway.
Those PG guys are pretty good at what they do.
Kids have to learn how to pitch and they have to learn how to throw hard. The two are not exclusive.
GBM,
I believe 30 to 40 pitch pens every other day is a bit too much for most pitchers at almost any level. TPM is right that most organizations use a mixture of long toss, flat grounds and pens to keep pitchers sharp and their arms reasonably safe.
JMO, but pitchers need a minimum of two days rest at least once a week. Muscles can recover on one day's rest for a while but tendons and ligaments recover much more slowly and eventually can be injured by throwing hard every other day. Those injuries can take a long time to show up but they can be quite serious when they do show up. When the Cardinals scout team run by Chuck Fick was working with my son on his pitching they insisted that work on developing his velocity as well as on his pitchability but they certainly didn't have him throwing pens every other day. I wasn't there but I believe a typical week included one long toss session followed by a flatground, one pen and one short pitching stint. They did gun him every time he pitched. Interestingly enough both his control and his velocity improved. Flatgrounds by themselves are almost useless but when used as an adjunct to bullpens they can be very useful in allowing pitchers to work on things without stressing their arm as much.
I used PG as an example that you don't have to have 90+ to get noticed and that many pichers mature later on. Using Chuck Fick is a great example of how long it takes to develop that velocity. Thanks for the example. Yes you have to learn how to pitch and pitch hard, at the appropriate time, that is all I am saying and all I have ever said. And you can't model others success because eachand every young pitcher is differnt and develops differently, all I am saying is wait until they are older to begin measureing velocity and looking for results, is that bad?
No LL coach should place a radar gun on a young pitcher for any reason, JMO.
You didn't answer my question, what did you do with your son to increase his velocity and did it work, and has he ever sustained an injury? This is nothing negative I am asking a question. Who cares if your son used weighted balls to increase his velocity, did that make a huge difference in being a better younger pitcher?
Did the Weaver brothers ever sustain injuries?
You post clips of a pitcher and add a negative critique, why not get recent clips why use one that is 4 years old? If people want to say stuff about son, that's their issue, they don't know him well enough to say anything negative.
One thing though, I notice that you are finally giving GBM some advice that was given way back on page one.
No LL coach should place a radar gun on a young pitcher for any reason, JMO.
You didn't answer my question, what did you do with your son to increase his velocity and did it work, and has he ever sustained an injury? This is nothing negative I am asking a question. Who cares if your son used weighted balls to increase his velocity, did that make a huge difference in being a better younger pitcher?
Did the Weaver brothers ever sustain injuries?
You post clips of a pitcher and add a negative critique, why not get recent clips why use one that is 4 years old? If people want to say stuff about son, that's their issue, they don't know him well enough to say anything negative.
One thing though, I notice that you are finally giving GBM some advice that was given way back on page one.
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
The radar guns are the culprit while the young arms are the victims.
Can you list one youth player that was injured by a radar gun? There must be thousands, or millions, of them. I gunned hundreds of them over several years, and nobody went to the hospital. Should PG stop using them?
I can understand that you may choose not to gun your child. I don't have any problems with that.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
The radar guns are the culprit while the young arms are the victims.
Can you list one youth player that was injured by a radar gun? There must be thousands, or millions, of them. I gunned hundreds of them over several years, and nobody went to the hospital. Should PG stop using them?
I can understand that you may choose not to gun your child. I don't have any problems with that.
Sultan, the orginal post was about 10 year olds. Once you reach HS, if you want to go to the next level, radar guns are inevitible. Radar guns do not physically hurt people. The problem is that often times, when the gun comes out, kids will overthrow to try to impress the gun. When they do this, mechanics suffer and they are more likely to either hurt themselves right then, or possibly cause some damage that they are not aware of that will come back to haunt them down the road.
You seem like a pretty knowledgeable person. I can't imagine that you are advocating for the use of radar guns for 10 year olds. Like I said earlier, at those younger ages, focus should be on solid, repeatable mechanics and control/command. Once they get older, worry about velocity. But, even then, kids need to be taught to not overthrow and let mechanics suffer at the expense of trying to throw hard. Once the kids are in HS, they should be mature enough to throw within themselves whether the guns are there or not.
I think I, and everyone here, realizes that if you want to go to MLB - and to a lesser extent, college - you have to have good velocity. It does matter. However, at 10 - 13 or 14 years old, velocity should not be the main focus.
Until my son was 13, and I bought a gun for coaching reasons, I had no idea how hard he threw. He may have thrown at one of those fair throwing booths or at Turner Field at a Braves game, but if he did, I don't remember. Don't ever remember seeing a radar gun at a ballfield until he was 14. Even after I got the gun, I only brought it out 3 times per year, just to measure progress over the course of the year.
Believe me when I say I am not against radar guns. However, there is a time and place for everything. 10 years old is not the time to be worring about it.
What little I've read of this thread is insane! 
Reminds me of the phone call I got from a dad of a 10-year old about 4 or 5 years ago. Asked what kind of "throwing program" I had our older son on when he was 10?
WTF?
After consulting with a few experts, I think I replied something like, "He threw dirt clods at cats and rocks at the stop sign down the street...and ate a lot of ice cream for building mass!"
Let kids be kids.
Reminds me of the phone call I got from a dad of a 10-year old about 4 or 5 years ago. Asked what kind of "throwing program" I had our older son on when he was 10?
WTF?
After consulting with a few experts, I think I replied something like, "He threw dirt clods at cats and rocks at the stop sign down the street...and ate a lot of ice cream for building mass!"
Let kids be kids.
TPM,
Every time we've had a chance to work on my son's velocity for an extended period of time he's added velocity. When he stops making the effort to throw hard on a somewhat regular basis and especially when he's throwing a lot of innings and can't safely throw pens it tends to get inconsistent. He's probably near his genetic limits at this point topping out at 88. He projects to top at about 91 according to multiple sources and we'd like him to get there sooner rather than later but for the moment we are working on his release point and cleaning up the mechanics. Once he gets a break from the college program and after a couple weeks off to rest his arm we'll work the velocity for a few weeks.
Yes, the weighted ball work did help him be a better young pitcher, but over the long term long toss and simply throwing hard pens and throwing hard in games when appropriate has done the most for his velocity.
Personally I'd just like to see a bit higher and more consistent working velocity and could care less what he tops out at. Normal increases with age would have him topping out at 90 to 91 by the time he graduates from college.
My son had an arm injury at 14yo from throwing too much from 3rd base due to an absolutely unqualified HS freshman coach. The injury was an olecranon stress reaction and was growth related. He inherited relatively porous bones from his mom and it is just something we had to keep an eye on while he was still growing. We shut him down and it was recovering just fine but the totally unqualified 18yo HS freshman coach started him at SS before he had recovered when I didn't show up to stop it. He won the position but reinjured the arm and lost an entire season. Fortunately, he's never had a ligament or tendon injury. He did suffer a small muscle tear in his brachialis muscle during physical therapy when they used the wrong setting on a Cybex machine. That's the extent of his arm injuries other than minor inflammation due to irritation of synovial plica in his forearm which probably resulted from the stress reaction at 14yo. Will he go the rest of his "career" without an arm injury? Who knows? He'll almost certainly have to get the plica scoped if he keeps on throwing long enough but we can only hope he gets to keep playing that long.
Now why don't you go ahead and give us some detail about your son's arm injury history.
Every time we've had a chance to work on my son's velocity for an extended period of time he's added velocity. When he stops making the effort to throw hard on a somewhat regular basis and especially when he's throwing a lot of innings and can't safely throw pens it tends to get inconsistent. He's probably near his genetic limits at this point topping out at 88. He projects to top at about 91 according to multiple sources and we'd like him to get there sooner rather than later but for the moment we are working on his release point and cleaning up the mechanics. Once he gets a break from the college program and after a couple weeks off to rest his arm we'll work the velocity for a few weeks.
Yes, the weighted ball work did help him be a better young pitcher, but over the long term long toss and simply throwing hard pens and throwing hard in games when appropriate has done the most for his velocity.
Personally I'd just like to see a bit higher and more consistent working velocity and could care less what he tops out at. Normal increases with age would have him topping out at 90 to 91 by the time he graduates from college.
My son had an arm injury at 14yo from throwing too much from 3rd base due to an absolutely unqualified HS freshman coach. The injury was an olecranon stress reaction and was growth related. He inherited relatively porous bones from his mom and it is just something we had to keep an eye on while he was still growing. We shut him down and it was recovering just fine but the totally unqualified 18yo HS freshman coach started him at SS before he had recovered when I didn't show up to stop it. He won the position but reinjured the arm and lost an entire season. Fortunately, he's never had a ligament or tendon injury. He did suffer a small muscle tear in his brachialis muscle during physical therapy when they used the wrong setting on a Cybex machine. That's the extent of his arm injuries other than minor inflammation due to irritation of synovial plica in his forearm which probably resulted from the stress reaction at 14yo. Will he go the rest of his "career" without an arm injury? Who knows? He'll almost certainly have to get the plica scoped if he keeps on throwing long enough but we can only hope he gets to keep playing that long.
Now why don't you go ahead and give us some detail about your son's arm injury history.
Remember SocaldadX5? Why don't you ask him what throwing program his kids were on at 10yo and what the result was.
There are people who believe that the best time to develop velocity is before the kids have started their growth spurts as there is less chance for serious injury and the body tends to remodel better in response to the stimulus of throwing hard. There are others who think just the opposite.
Personally, I wasn't willing to take that much of a risk with my kid but I'm sure not going to say that he was insane. Maybe his kids would have reached the velocities they did regardless. Maybe not. The one thing we know is that they did reach those velocities and millions of other kids didn't.
There are people who believe that the best time to develop velocity is before the kids have started their growth spurts as there is less chance for serious injury and the body tends to remodel better in response to the stimulus of throwing hard. There are others who think just the opposite.
Personally, I wasn't willing to take that much of a risk with my kid but I'm sure not going to say that he was insane. Maybe his kids would have reached the velocities they did regardless. Maybe not. The one thing we know is that they did reach those velocities and millions of other kids didn't.
quote:The one thing we know is that they did reach those velocities and millions of other kids didn't.
CADad,
We(you and I) also know that more and more pitchers ages 14-18 are sitting in doctor's offices and surgery suites throughout the US. We know there are ongoing studies concerning what orthopedists and sports medicine professionals view as the dramatic or epidemic increase in arm injuries/surgeries. One significant factor for pitchers suffering these types of injuries from ages 14-18 is the increased pursuit of velocity. It is not the only factor but it is a significant.
Quite clearly many pitchers ages 14-18 escape injury. We can point and highlight to them. They are playing in college/Milb.
We don't point or highlight to those who had their career ended along the way. Most of them and their parents are not posting on the HSBBW.
This is a risk assessment, in my view.
I know you know this.
But others reading this thread may well see polarized views with your posts supporting Sultan and GBM and others like TPM and myself in a far distant camp.
As I said before, I believe our sons are owed a duty of trust when it comes to their health and baseball health.
I choose to rely on the medical professionals who are studying the issues. Pursuit of velocity at younger ages is a major factor in arm injuries, especially on a cumulative wear and tear basis. If pursuit of velocity is combined with playing more than 8 months per year, the risk increases. If those are combined with pitch counts above 80, the risks increase dramatically. Add inadequate rest, lack of stretching and the like at the risks get off the chart.
With that said, there will be some at the highest risk who won't be a statistic. There will be some who are in the lower levels of risk who will.
The point of this thread is the importance of the pursuit of velocity at age 10 with the thread expanding the pursuit up to ages 14.
If it is not insane, it is dangerous and risky and probably even reckless, in my opinion.
As the OLD GEEZER on this site I look back and wonder why I enjoyed the game so much and I had no gun on me--I had tough coaches who improved my game and made me understand it--I had a dad who was a semipro catcher and one of the best students of the game that I ever met--we had no radar guns---we had no 60 yd times---we had no SPARQ tests---we just had a love for the game and we played from dawn to duck in one form of the game or another
Today the parents want 10 yr olds to equate to MLB players--It is the parents, not the kids, creating this---when I was 10 years of age I worried about making the team because there was no PC system---you made the LL majors or you played in the minors in LL regardless of your age---no worry about the kid being made to feel inferior to others---it never happened --you were either good enough to make the team or not
Why do we need all this nonsense/---Thru FACEBOOK I have been able to reconnect with players I playeed with in my youth and with players I coached in LL some 20 plus years ago---they were not hurt by the system
I would ask that the parents of today become real and let the kids play baseball and enjoy it
Today the parents want 10 yr olds to equate to MLB players--It is the parents, not the kids, creating this---when I was 10 years of age I worried about making the team because there was no PC system---you made the LL majors or you played in the minors in LL regardless of your age---no worry about the kid being made to feel inferior to others---it never happened --you were either good enough to make the team or not
Why do we need all this nonsense/---Thru FACEBOOK I have been able to reconnect with players I playeed with in my youth and with players I coached in LL some 20 plus years ago---they were not hurt by the system
I would ask that the parents of today become real and let the kids play baseball and enjoy it
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
CADad,
We(you and I) also know that more and more pitchers ages 14-18 are sitting in doctor's offices and surgery suites throughout the US.
If dad's weren't trying to get their kid into MLB, they would not be getting these arms fixed. Years ago, these clinics weren't around and these arms weren't fixed. I know many guys my age (the ones that are not dead) that blew out their arm, then switched over to another position.
quote:We know there are ongoing studies concerning what orthopedists and sports medicine professionals view as the dramatic or epidemic increase in arm injuries/surgeries. One significant factor for pitchers suffering these types of injuries from ages 14-18 is the increased pursuit of velocity.
I know you want to believe this, but please link the studies that suggest the "pursuit of velocity" causes injuries. Why would PG allow this? Why would LLWS allow this for 11 yo? The studies I read say "overuse" causes injuries. If we could just stick to facts, that would be great.
Let's be clear about my position. I don't think the simple act of gunning any kid is going to injure them. I guess some Dad could go nuts and make them throw every day until they are faster, faster, faster. This Dad doesn't need a radar gun to go nuts. Guns don't kill pitchers, Coaches/Dads do.
There are some on this board who honestly think that waiting until a pitcher is 15-16 to start pitching and working on velocity is fine. There are others like myself that believe that there is nothing wrong of starting that process at a younger age. LL organizations have been aware of the increase in arm injuries over the years and have adopted strict pitch count rules in their respective organizations to help curb this growing trend.
Many organizations like ASMI have done extensive research into the problem and have come up with some interesting statistics. From what i have been able to gather, it is not a problem of "when" a pitcher starts throwing, or with "what velocity" they are throwing, it is "how much" and "too often" that they are finding to be the major factor. Why? because they are fnding that almost every case of adolescent injury occurs due to an increase in pitching amount at a high velocity coupled with a pitcher feeling fatigued or having constant arm pain and pitching through it.
Now of course the stats also show that some escape injury when they have pitched the same velocity or higher and just as frequently. The real culprit I believe is thus- "too much" coupled with some degree of pain or fatigue.
When we were at the baseball camp last winter they talked about this and how important it is for a pitcher to remain active and workout often to obtain the proper strength so that he wouldn't get trapped in a season pitching under pain or fatigue.
As I have always stated, I never allow my son to pitch "too much" or pitch while he was "fatigued". I have seen all too often the marathon legion seasons where starting pitchers pitch 4-5 times in the week trying to gain wins for the team. Often times these games run high in pitch counts and it is not checked- no one is keeping track.
So to defend what i am doing. I believe in bullpen work frequently in short reps because I honestly believe that this builds the strength and stamina for a pitcher needed so that he doesn't fatigue easlily setting himself up for premature failure or injury.
People think I am insane or overboard but I keep asking myself this- Yes, we have escaped injury up to this point and son continues to pitch without pain and fatigue where others who I see do not. So who is more at risk? Is my son at an elevated risk because he pitches less (pitch count) but more often (more frequently). If the name of the game is to keep pitchers from overpitching causing fatigue and injury, then I would say that my son is under-pitching if anything at all!
What's worse-
30 pitches every other day without any fatigue, or twice a week pitching whole games where pitch counts often soar over a 100? Who do you think is going to suffer from premature failure and fatigue?
Many organizations like ASMI have done extensive research into the problem and have come up with some interesting statistics. From what i have been able to gather, it is not a problem of "when" a pitcher starts throwing, or with "what velocity" they are throwing, it is "how much" and "too often" that they are finding to be the major factor. Why? because they are fnding that almost every case of adolescent injury occurs due to an increase in pitching amount at a high velocity coupled with a pitcher feeling fatigued or having constant arm pain and pitching through it.
Now of course the stats also show that some escape injury when they have pitched the same velocity or higher and just as frequently. The real culprit I believe is thus- "too much" coupled with some degree of pain or fatigue.
When we were at the baseball camp last winter they talked about this and how important it is for a pitcher to remain active and workout often to obtain the proper strength so that he wouldn't get trapped in a season pitching under pain or fatigue.
As I have always stated, I never allow my son to pitch "too much" or pitch while he was "fatigued". I have seen all too often the marathon legion seasons where starting pitchers pitch 4-5 times in the week trying to gain wins for the team. Often times these games run high in pitch counts and it is not checked- no one is keeping track.
So to defend what i am doing. I believe in bullpen work frequently in short reps because I honestly believe that this builds the strength and stamina for a pitcher needed so that he doesn't fatigue easlily setting himself up for premature failure or injury.
People think I am insane or overboard but I keep asking myself this- Yes, we have escaped injury up to this point and son continues to pitch without pain and fatigue where others who I see do not. So who is more at risk? Is my son at an elevated risk because he pitches less (pitch count) but more often (more frequently). If the name of the game is to keep pitchers from overpitching causing fatigue and injury, then I would say that my son is under-pitching if anything at all!
What's worse-
30 pitches every other day without any fatigue, or twice a week pitching whole games where pitch counts often soar over a 100? Who do you think is going to suffer from premature failure and fatigue?
infielddad,
Actually I'm responding to the part about gunning kids at an early age being some sort of crime. I don't think that guns add much if any risk. Sure throwing at max velocity for a lot of pitches is riskier than throwing at regular velocity for the same number of pitches. However, IMO, that is only because fatigue sets in earlier and therefore the overuse starts earlier. If one strictly limits the number of pitches thrown at full velocity and ensures that the pitcher is fully warm but not fatigued before throwing at full velocity for a few pitches then I don't see a problem.
The primary risk is overuse at all age levels and I think that pitchers throwing in too many leagues and throwing bullpens too often is the main risk factor.
A lot of people think that the big risk is with 10yo and I don't happen to think that having a properly warmed up 10yo try to throw a few pitches hard and giving them feedback as to how it is working is much of a risk at all. Letting a 10yo throw way too many pitches in pursuit of some 10u tournament victory on the other hand is a serious risk.
I also believe that the biggest risk comes after the growth spurt begins and the tendons and ligaments are stressed because they aren't growing as fast as the bones and then after that when kids get into HS and college and are told that they should sacrifice their arms for the program. That goes with along with your 14-18yo surgery group.
The velocity risk really doesn't usually start happening until kids get into the mid 80s and if it happens at lower velocities then the kids are either not genetically suited to pitching or have been seriously overused. Once again that goes with the 14-18yo group and leaves out the 10yo's. Of course if you've got a 10yo who throws significantly harder than his peers without being significantly more mature there's added risk at far less than mid 80s velocities.
So am I saying it is safer to have 10yo work on their velocity? Probably. Am I saying that it is worth the risk? Probably not. It is entirely the parents responsibility to make sure the 10yo are safe and as they get older it becomes a shared responsibility with the player, the parents and the coaches. Am I saying it is safe to gun a 10yo on occasion as long as it isn't done on a regular basis. Absolutely.
What am I recommending for 10yo? I recommend a throwing program focused on learning the basic mechanics and how to repeat their delivery. I recommend very limited innings on the mound. I recommend getting the kids to try throwing a few hard pitches while maintaining their mechanics at the end of a pitching lesson as long as they aren't fatigued and I recommend having a gun there so they can get some feedback. Many times throwing harder doesn't result in throwing faster. Given that I've seen college recruiters guess velocities off by 5 or 6 mph I don't believe that you can always tell how fast they are throwing without a gun. I also recommend making sure that the overall mix of games, bullpens, lessons, etc. is not going to result in overuse.
How about weighted balls for 10yo? I don't see any problem with having them do the drill where they put their elbow in the glove and try to flip the 6oz ball with their wrist only. Other than that I think there may be a risk in having that young of a kid actually throw a weighted ball and I don't think it is worth the risk. JMO.
Actually I'm responding to the part about gunning kids at an early age being some sort of crime. I don't think that guns add much if any risk. Sure throwing at max velocity for a lot of pitches is riskier than throwing at regular velocity for the same number of pitches. However, IMO, that is only because fatigue sets in earlier and therefore the overuse starts earlier. If one strictly limits the number of pitches thrown at full velocity and ensures that the pitcher is fully warm but not fatigued before throwing at full velocity for a few pitches then I don't see a problem.
The primary risk is overuse at all age levels and I think that pitchers throwing in too many leagues and throwing bullpens too often is the main risk factor.
A lot of people think that the big risk is with 10yo and I don't happen to think that having a properly warmed up 10yo try to throw a few pitches hard and giving them feedback as to how it is working is much of a risk at all. Letting a 10yo throw way too many pitches in pursuit of some 10u tournament victory on the other hand is a serious risk.
I also believe that the biggest risk comes after the growth spurt begins and the tendons and ligaments are stressed because they aren't growing as fast as the bones and then after that when kids get into HS and college and are told that they should sacrifice their arms for the program. That goes with along with your 14-18yo surgery group.
The velocity risk really doesn't usually start happening until kids get into the mid 80s and if it happens at lower velocities then the kids are either not genetically suited to pitching or have been seriously overused. Once again that goes with the 14-18yo group and leaves out the 10yo's. Of course if you've got a 10yo who throws significantly harder than his peers without being significantly more mature there's added risk at far less than mid 80s velocities.
So am I saying it is safer to have 10yo work on their velocity? Probably. Am I saying that it is worth the risk? Probably not. It is entirely the parents responsibility to make sure the 10yo are safe and as they get older it becomes a shared responsibility with the player, the parents and the coaches. Am I saying it is safe to gun a 10yo on occasion as long as it isn't done on a regular basis. Absolutely.
What am I recommending for 10yo? I recommend a throwing program focused on learning the basic mechanics and how to repeat their delivery. I recommend very limited innings on the mound. I recommend getting the kids to try throwing a few hard pitches while maintaining their mechanics at the end of a pitching lesson as long as they aren't fatigued and I recommend having a gun there so they can get some feedback. Many times throwing harder doesn't result in throwing faster. Given that I've seen college recruiters guess velocities off by 5 or 6 mph I don't believe that you can always tell how fast they are throwing without a gun. I also recommend making sure that the overall mix of games, bullpens, lessons, etc. is not going to result in overuse.
How about weighted balls for 10yo? I don't see any problem with having them do the drill where they put their elbow in the glove and try to flip the 6oz ball with their wrist only. Other than that I think there may be a risk in having that young of a kid actually throw a weighted ball and I don't think it is worth the risk. JMO.
GBM,
I see nothing wrong with "short" pens every other day a total of 3 times a week. If it becomes every other day without that 2 days or more of rest on occasion then there's some added risk of cumulative tendon or ligament damage and it isn't going to show up right away.
I see nothing wrong with "short" pens every other day a total of 3 times a week. If it becomes every other day without that 2 days or more of rest on occasion then there's some added risk of cumulative tendon or ligament damage and it isn't going to show up right away.
quote:Am I saying it is safe to gun a 10yo on occasion as long as it isn't done on a regular basis. Absolutely.
CADad,
My son is long gone from this issue. If other parents feel "they" should be able to choose how much "risk" they want for their 10 year old "son" in order to pursue MLB as Sultan posts, nothing I say is going to make a difference.
Since their son is not sitting in Kerlan-Jobe learning of the UCL or labrum tear, they have no idea of the downside risk other than some kids get there, but not "mine."
I believe Sultan's response is clear evidence of this type of approach.
You and I both know that what they do/throw at 10, 11, 12, 13, or 14 does not normally show up immediately. While some, such as your son, have acute issues, many of these are not acute.
It is not the gun on them at any individual point in time that is the focal issue.
It is the cumulative effects during those ages, combined with velocity, combined with fatigue, combined with pitch counts that are all inclusive of the definition of "overuse." To the extent that serial "gunning" over those years is part of any of the factors that are incorporated into "overuse" then gunning can be an issue. Clearly, Dr Andrews thinks it is.
You and I both know that this issue is all the risk factors taken together from ages 10 to 15/16, that come into play as cumulative and chronic stress which impacts in HS. Taken together, the risks of serious arm injury go up as much as 3,600 percent by HS. Taken individually, each factor of "overuse" results in an increased risk of anywhere from 250% up to 500% for serious injury during HS, according to recent reports.
An adult saying they are feeling comfortable at age 14 does not make much sense when the real true risk of what happened before starts to become apparent in the next 4 or so years. It makes sense in terms of having avoided acute injury. It does not for cumulative overuse, of which velocity is an identified risk.
With regard to the gun and a 10 year old, my question is... why.
What in the heck is the importance of velocity at age 10 in the overall landscape of baseball? It is parents, using a parents tool to "drive" a youth sport.
There is not a single person in MLB, Milb, college or high school baseball who cares what velocity was shown on a gun at age 10.
It is a predictor of nothing. It adds nothing to how the game is played. To me, is an artificial parent device that gets 10 year olds to throw harder. It adds nothing to the experience, the fun or the game of baseball at that age in my view.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
I see nothing wrong with "short" pens every other day a total of 3 times a week.
No offense guys but we are talking about 10YO's!!!
When he was 10 a pen was where we kept our chickens...
Excellent post infielddad!
CAdad,
Since you asked here goes.
My son has never sustained a major injury and never had to miss any game until he became a professional, ah wait, except once in college when he rolled his ankle. FWIW, he has had several MRI, the first complete one only when he signed, and there was not even a slight tear found.
The "injury" that everyone talks about but deosn't know the real story unless I have told them was cortacoid impingement, causing tendinitous in the area slightly above his armpit, not his shoulder. He was scoped one year by the team doctor, to clean up some fraying, nothing of significance found but he was not looking for what was apparently the cause because it is a rare occurance. The problem was genetic (the bone to large for the space given), and last fall had to undergo another arthoscopic surgery to shave the bone. Also, because no one really knew what was really going on before it was discovered, they thought he had a loose capsule so he had to do specific excercises (before he saw this doctor that discovered his issue) for months to tighten the capsule, now the new doctor told them that now they had to do the reverse, as it had become too tight and he could lose his range of motion. It had to be done very carefully under supervision as not to over stretch, lose the integrity of the capsule and it's supporting muscles and ligaments. Also prescribed was a much more intense workout and conditioning for the lower body, even though son never threw with his "arm" this workout and a change in mechanics by professionals has releived all stress from his shoulder and arm, he has never felt better in his life.
So there is a very good example of working with professionals but in reality you cannot see inside, and if they missed some stuff, how can a non professional get it right? This doesn't mean that one day he will take the mound and somthing will happen, but the whole point is that he escaped youth injury, and we all know they abound today.
SofS, just because there are operations to repair doesn't mean that they will continue playing. It is so difficult for a 23-24 to go through 2 scope surgeries, it has got to be harder for youth players to go through major surgeries. Looking back on how hard it was for us to know the frustration he felt, we also knew that he was at a point where he would be given consideration and chances to move forward, that doesn't happen to young players. It's a lot less harder to swallow it all from an adult's perspective rather than a young players. Besides, think of all the "fun" that should be there is not happening.
IMO, it's all just a guessing game, and you know as well as I that genetics plays a HUGE part in it. As you know, son has the desired frame for a pitcher, lanky, long arms and long legs, so of course his path would be much different than others, that's also a big point, you can't make recommendations on what's best for another without knowing anything about them.
Of course one has to teach and train a pitcher to throw his hardest, but I firmly believe that this is not appropriate for young pitchers, we are talking about the 10-14 year old level here, not HS, not college, not pro ball. Show me where it is recommended that 10-14 year olds should throw every other day from a mound.
As far as why the emphasis on developing velocity so young it IS because youth baseball has become a big business, just because there are certain groups that offer what they do at showcases and camps does not mean that is what is necessarily what is right. If you are charging parents lots of money, you better believe you better do something to show for it. Yes, there are many that will benefit from it, but there are many who won't.
As much as we disagree on many things, TR's got it right, it is the parents pursuit of MLB that creates all of this, the dreams of getting lots of money to sign to play pro ball. Reality is you got to get there first, and when he does with what he's done, GBM can tell us what the answer is.
People in the business are going to do what is in demand and makes money for them, they wouldn't do half the things they do if no one wanted to pay for it. This is not a dig on anyone, but this is the way I and many see it. Business is business.
To me it doesn't matter at this point, youth baseball has lost it's way in many ways, again this is not a dig on any one organization is particular.
So here it is, son began pitching very young at age 8, never did much in the way of bullpens, never played year round baseball, never had a paid pitching lesson in his life, no complete games, didn't lift any heavy weights until 15, never used weighted balls, tossed a lot, didn't use the CB until he was 14-15 in games, not allowed to participate in those set ups where you throw to measure velocity, and the first time the radar gun was placed on him, with our permission, was at 15. Never once were we even curious as to WHAT he threw, (neither was he), because it didn't matter. But I never suggested that anyone model their players path after him, because we all know that all children and their genetics are different.
Who is more at risk, we all know that overuse and fatigue is, that's not the issue here. I am not arguing that GBM doesn't bring up some good points, but there are some I do not believe are healthy. Throwing frequently from the mound is one of them. Going home after your cool down and throwing hard to a wall is not one of them (or have we changed our opinion on that)
What is short frequent reps in bull pens anyway plus games? That's still pitching, how many pitches in a week does that add up to?
As far as being able to "repair", there is nothing more heart breaking than a young pitcher having to go through an operation (and there are risks to that) and then having to rehab intensly to get back, lost time in having the fun that youth sports brings (that's what it's all abut folks).
SofS, the things I say are in repsonse to what is posted, for example the comment about breeding pitchers. That right there gives you a hint as to the parents way of thinking.
When son was a junior he hit 90 the fall of his junior year, we were told by those very qualified to leave him alone the next jump would be after a growth spurt. It did the following year going into college he hit 93. There was NOTHING done. However, I can just see some of you out there with their son every other day throwing bull pens to increase their velocity, with the radar gun, when there was no need to, it got there on it's own.
CAdad,
Since you asked here goes.
My son has never sustained a major injury and never had to miss any game until he became a professional, ah wait, except once in college when he rolled his ankle. FWIW, he has had several MRI, the first complete one only when he signed, and there was not even a slight tear found.
The "injury" that everyone talks about but deosn't know the real story unless I have told them was cortacoid impingement, causing tendinitous in the area slightly above his armpit, not his shoulder. He was scoped one year by the team doctor, to clean up some fraying, nothing of significance found but he was not looking for what was apparently the cause because it is a rare occurance. The problem was genetic (the bone to large for the space given), and last fall had to undergo another arthoscopic surgery to shave the bone. Also, because no one really knew what was really going on before it was discovered, they thought he had a loose capsule so he had to do specific excercises (before he saw this doctor that discovered his issue) for months to tighten the capsule, now the new doctor told them that now they had to do the reverse, as it had become too tight and he could lose his range of motion. It had to be done very carefully under supervision as not to over stretch, lose the integrity of the capsule and it's supporting muscles and ligaments. Also prescribed was a much more intense workout and conditioning for the lower body, even though son never threw with his "arm" this workout and a change in mechanics by professionals has releived all stress from his shoulder and arm, he has never felt better in his life.
So there is a very good example of working with professionals but in reality you cannot see inside, and if they missed some stuff, how can a non professional get it right? This doesn't mean that one day he will take the mound and somthing will happen, but the whole point is that he escaped youth injury, and we all know they abound today.
SofS, just because there are operations to repair doesn't mean that they will continue playing. It is so difficult for a 23-24 to go through 2 scope surgeries, it has got to be harder for youth players to go through major surgeries. Looking back on how hard it was for us to know the frustration he felt, we also knew that he was at a point where he would be given consideration and chances to move forward, that doesn't happen to young players. It's a lot less harder to swallow it all from an adult's perspective rather than a young players. Besides, think of all the "fun" that should be there is not happening.
IMO, it's all just a guessing game, and you know as well as I that genetics plays a HUGE part in it. As you know, son has the desired frame for a pitcher, lanky, long arms and long legs, so of course his path would be much different than others, that's also a big point, you can't make recommendations on what's best for another without knowing anything about them.
Of course one has to teach and train a pitcher to throw his hardest, but I firmly believe that this is not appropriate for young pitchers, we are talking about the 10-14 year old level here, not HS, not college, not pro ball. Show me where it is recommended that 10-14 year olds should throw every other day from a mound.
As far as why the emphasis on developing velocity so young it IS because youth baseball has become a big business, just because there are certain groups that offer what they do at showcases and camps does not mean that is what is necessarily what is right. If you are charging parents lots of money, you better believe you better do something to show for it. Yes, there are many that will benefit from it, but there are many who won't.
As much as we disagree on many things, TR's got it right, it is the parents pursuit of MLB that creates all of this, the dreams of getting lots of money to sign to play pro ball. Reality is you got to get there first, and when he does with what he's done, GBM can tell us what the answer is.
People in the business are going to do what is in demand and makes money for them, they wouldn't do half the things they do if no one wanted to pay for it. This is not a dig on anyone, but this is the way I and many see it. Business is business.
To me it doesn't matter at this point, youth baseball has lost it's way in many ways, again this is not a dig on any one organization is particular.
So here it is, son began pitching very young at age 8, never did much in the way of bullpens, never played year round baseball, never had a paid pitching lesson in his life, no complete games, didn't lift any heavy weights until 15, never used weighted balls, tossed a lot, didn't use the CB until he was 14-15 in games, not allowed to participate in those set ups where you throw to measure velocity, and the first time the radar gun was placed on him, with our permission, was at 15. Never once were we even curious as to WHAT he threw, (neither was he), because it didn't matter. But I never suggested that anyone model their players path after him, because we all know that all children and their genetics are different.
Who is more at risk, we all know that overuse and fatigue is, that's not the issue here. I am not arguing that GBM doesn't bring up some good points, but there are some I do not believe are healthy. Throwing frequently from the mound is one of them. Going home after your cool down and throwing hard to a wall is not one of them (or have we changed our opinion on that)
What is short frequent reps in bull pens anyway plus games? That's still pitching, how many pitches in a week does that add up to?
As far as being able to "repair", there is nothing more heart breaking than a young pitcher having to go through an operation (and there are risks to that) and then having to rehab intensly to get back, lost time in having the fun that youth sports brings (that's what it's all abut folks).
SofS, the things I say are in repsonse to what is posted, for example the comment about breeding pitchers. That right there gives you a hint as to the parents way of thinking.
When son was a junior he hit 90 the fall of his junior year, we were told by those very qualified to leave him alone the next jump would be after a growth spurt. It did the following year going into college he hit 93. There was NOTHING done. However, I can just see some of you out there with their son every other day throwing bull pens to increase their velocity, with the radar gun, when there was no need to, it got there on it's own.
infielddad,
I think we're on the same page overall. The difference is that I think that occasional use of the gun in a controlled situation has little or no risk relative to the other factors you've mentioned.
Dr. Andrews blamed showcases for overuse as part of his blaming radar guns for arm injuries and he tied the two together. Many kids do throw for the gun at showcases, but my experience is that the kids who are throwing short stints throw harder than the kids who are throwing more innings and most of the showcases also limit the number of batters per inning so that things don't get out of hand.
It isn't the showcases that are the problem, it is showcases added onto an already demanding schedule that can be a problem. It isn't the radar gun that is a problem, it is throwing too hard, too often without proper recovery time that is a problem. It isn't throwing hard that is a problem, it is throwing hard without proper warmup, or when fatigued or not realizing that additional rest is needed after throwing harder than usual. OK, I'll admit that throwing hard enough can add to risk, but it also adds reward and the velocity difference between throwing all out and throwing at working velocity is seldom more than 3 or 4 mph and often less.
What value is there in using a radar gun on a 10yo?
1. Curiosity.
2. The kids enjoy it. (If you don't think the kids enjoy it then you should have seen the lines at the MLB fanfest. Now that is dangerous if a kid has an arm and heads into one of those without warming up. Even worse they didn't know how to setup the guns so they didn't get readings half the time.)
3. Feedback for the pitching instructor.
If I thought there was any significant risk involved then those wouldn't be reasons enough to use a gun. I don't believe there's any significant risk involved and Dr. Andrews was speaking off the cuff and making big time extrapolations when he blamed showcases and radar guns for arm injuries. Is it surprising that he sees a lot of kids who have showcased? Does that mean the showcases and radar guns at showcases are causing the injuries? It is a lot more likely that kids who showcase are more likely to throw hard enough to injure their UCLs or are the same kids who would be overused showcases or no showcases, radar guns or no radar guns. One has to be very careful about drawing conclusions from a set of data. Kids who are more active tend to weigh less than kids who aren't. Doctors and just about everyone else have long believed that meant that if they could get kids to be more active then kids would weigh less. The conventional wisdom was wrong. Kids who add activity eat more and maintain their natural weight. It turns out that kids who ate less were more active because they weighed less and not the other way around. When you consider that a single cookie can contain as many calories as one would burn off running a mile that seems obvious but it was only recently that a scientific study proved it.
BTW, I wouldn't really call my son's injury acute. He was moved to 3rd during practice so that the coach could take grounders at short while they were practicing. He did that for a couple weeks then the day before their first game they had a couple hours of fielding practice.
He played the first game with a sore arm and played through the pain only telling us the next day when he could barely move his arm.
Stress reactions can be acute but generally they happen after a couple weeks or more of overuse.
I think we're on the same page overall. The difference is that I think that occasional use of the gun in a controlled situation has little or no risk relative to the other factors you've mentioned.
Dr. Andrews blamed showcases for overuse as part of his blaming radar guns for arm injuries and he tied the two together. Many kids do throw for the gun at showcases, but my experience is that the kids who are throwing short stints throw harder than the kids who are throwing more innings and most of the showcases also limit the number of batters per inning so that things don't get out of hand.
It isn't the showcases that are the problem, it is showcases added onto an already demanding schedule that can be a problem. It isn't the radar gun that is a problem, it is throwing too hard, too often without proper recovery time that is a problem. It isn't throwing hard that is a problem, it is throwing hard without proper warmup, or when fatigued or not realizing that additional rest is needed after throwing harder than usual. OK, I'll admit that throwing hard enough can add to risk, but it also adds reward and the velocity difference between throwing all out and throwing at working velocity is seldom more than 3 or 4 mph and often less.
What value is there in using a radar gun on a 10yo?
1. Curiosity.
2. The kids enjoy it. (If you don't think the kids enjoy it then you should have seen the lines at the MLB fanfest. Now that is dangerous if a kid has an arm and heads into one of those without warming up. Even worse they didn't know how to setup the guns so they didn't get readings half the time.)
3. Feedback for the pitching instructor.
If I thought there was any significant risk involved then those wouldn't be reasons enough to use a gun. I don't believe there's any significant risk involved and Dr. Andrews was speaking off the cuff and making big time extrapolations when he blamed showcases and radar guns for arm injuries. Is it surprising that he sees a lot of kids who have showcased? Does that mean the showcases and radar guns at showcases are causing the injuries? It is a lot more likely that kids who showcase are more likely to throw hard enough to injure their UCLs or are the same kids who would be overused showcases or no showcases, radar guns or no radar guns. One has to be very careful about drawing conclusions from a set of data. Kids who are more active tend to weigh less than kids who aren't. Doctors and just about everyone else have long believed that meant that if they could get kids to be more active then kids would weigh less. The conventional wisdom was wrong. Kids who add activity eat more and maintain their natural weight. It turns out that kids who ate less were more active because they weighed less and not the other way around. When you consider that a single cookie can contain as many calories as one would burn off running a mile that seems obvious but it was only recently that a scientific study proved it.
BTW, I wouldn't really call my son's injury acute. He was moved to 3rd during practice so that the coach could take grounders at short while they were practicing. He did that for a couple weeks then the day before their first game they had a couple hours of fielding practice.
He played the first game with a sore arm and played through the pain only telling us the next day when he could barely move his arm.
Stress reactions can be acute but generally they happen after a couple weeks or more of overuse.
BOF,
Not 10yo for the 3 pens a week. That's too much. If nothing else it would take the fun out it for them.
Not 10yo for the 3 pens a week. That's too much. If nothing else it would take the fun out it for them.
TPM,
Good post, thanks for the info. Pens tend to be somewhat less stressful than pitching and flatgrounds tend to be less stressful than pens. Long toss can go anywhere from not being very stressful at all to being as much or more stress than pitching depending on the approach. One has to integrate all of them together and limit the pens depending on how much pitching they are doing. For example my son is a bit frustrated right now because they have him pitching 4 innings once a week and two innings once a week and we haven't been able to safely fit in a pen for him for a couple weeks now. Pens are important for maintaining the mechanics and the release point especially for the younger (in terms of total innings pitched) pitchers and the ones who have more complex deliveries.
My preference for the older kids for development is 1 pitching outing of 2 or 3 innings a week, 1 good pen and 1 flatground with just general throwing to keep the arm loose 2 or 3 days a week. It is very difficult to keep that schedule for any extended period of time.
For a 10yo I can't see them enjoying anything more than pitching once a week and perhaps a lesson every few weeks. It depends on the kid. Most likely they are going to be playing other positions and doing plenty of throwing. The 10yo have to have fun and develop a love for the game or they won't persevere through the hard times that almost invariably come later on in the game.
If I remember right mine was a catcher at 10yo and kind of fell into pitching due to lack of more than one pitcher who could throw strikes not that he could throw that many strikes. We didn't let him pitch much at 11yo and didn't let him throw curves. The coaches weren't happy with us.
At 12yo he pitched a fair amount but still didn't throw a curve despite the lure of LL all-stars. The kids from our district who were the national champs that year had several curve ballers.
At 13yo he played in an incredibly competitive PONY program and we had a good 14yo pitcher who got the most innings and enough pitchers that we could limit his innings.
Then at 14yo he went into the HS program and the nightmare began. While he was in the HS program the kids in the program had 6 or 7 serious back injuries. There were 5 UCL injuries but only a couple led to surgery and the other 3 resulted in leaving baseball, although one of them had a fairly good HS "career" pitching through the pain. CASon was one of the lucky ones in many ways. If anyone wonders why I worry more about the HS age kids that's why. One kid who purported to be taking Creatine with plenty of encouragement from the coaches got big quick but injuries kept him off the field a lot until his senior season. He did have a very good senior season. That kid was a football player and the kids told me that most of the football players were taking Mdrol. Despite encouragement from one of the coaches I don't think any of the other baseball players other than perhaps one of the other football players took it.
Other than the brief and carefully controlled experiment with the weighted balls the only thing he did for velocity was Jaeger's long toss program and the few (5 or 6) hard pitches at the end of pitching lessons. He loved going to the Jaeger camps and hanging out with the "older" players.
Then with the Cardinals they simply had him throw hard in scrimmages and in pens during their program along with a lot of conditioning. He picked up about 1.5 mph over 6 weeks doing that. A big part of that gain was probably just getting better extension and being confident that he could throw strikes when throwing harder.
Probably the only time he had a real jump in velocity other than touching up his mechanics to get him back to a previous velocity was while he was rehabbing from the stress reaction and El Attrache sent him to a PT because he had GIRD. The PT was very baseball savvy and did a great job of getting his range of motion back and he went from about 71 to 76 mph almost immediately.
Good post, thanks for the info. Pens tend to be somewhat less stressful than pitching and flatgrounds tend to be less stressful than pens. Long toss can go anywhere from not being very stressful at all to being as much or more stress than pitching depending on the approach. One has to integrate all of them together and limit the pens depending on how much pitching they are doing. For example my son is a bit frustrated right now because they have him pitching 4 innings once a week and two innings once a week and we haven't been able to safely fit in a pen for him for a couple weeks now. Pens are important for maintaining the mechanics and the release point especially for the younger (in terms of total innings pitched) pitchers and the ones who have more complex deliveries.
My preference for the older kids for development is 1 pitching outing of 2 or 3 innings a week, 1 good pen and 1 flatground with just general throwing to keep the arm loose 2 or 3 days a week. It is very difficult to keep that schedule for any extended period of time.
For a 10yo I can't see them enjoying anything more than pitching once a week and perhaps a lesson every few weeks. It depends on the kid. Most likely they are going to be playing other positions and doing plenty of throwing. The 10yo have to have fun and develop a love for the game or they won't persevere through the hard times that almost invariably come later on in the game.
If I remember right mine was a catcher at 10yo and kind of fell into pitching due to lack of more than one pitcher who could throw strikes not that he could throw that many strikes. We didn't let him pitch much at 11yo and didn't let him throw curves. The coaches weren't happy with us.
At 12yo he pitched a fair amount but still didn't throw a curve despite the lure of LL all-stars. The kids from our district who were the national champs that year had several curve ballers.
At 13yo he played in an incredibly competitive PONY program and we had a good 14yo pitcher who got the most innings and enough pitchers that we could limit his innings.
Then at 14yo he went into the HS program and the nightmare began. While he was in the HS program the kids in the program had 6 or 7 serious back injuries. There were 5 UCL injuries but only a couple led to surgery and the other 3 resulted in leaving baseball, although one of them had a fairly good HS "career" pitching through the pain. CASon was one of the lucky ones in many ways. If anyone wonders why I worry more about the HS age kids that's why. One kid who purported to be taking Creatine with plenty of encouragement from the coaches got big quick but injuries kept him off the field a lot until his senior season. He did have a very good senior season. That kid was a football player and the kids told me that most of the football players were taking Mdrol. Despite encouragement from one of the coaches I don't think any of the other baseball players other than perhaps one of the other football players took it.
Other than the brief and carefully controlled experiment with the weighted balls the only thing he did for velocity was Jaeger's long toss program and the few (5 or 6) hard pitches at the end of pitching lessons. He loved going to the Jaeger camps and hanging out with the "older" players.
Then with the Cardinals they simply had him throw hard in scrimmages and in pens during their program along with a lot of conditioning. He picked up about 1.5 mph over 6 weeks doing that. A big part of that gain was probably just getting better extension and being confident that he could throw strikes when throwing harder.
Probably the only time he had a real jump in velocity other than touching up his mechanics to get him back to a previous velocity was while he was rehabbing from the stress reaction and El Attrache sent him to a PT because he had GIRD. The PT was very baseball savvy and did a great job of getting his range of motion back and he went from about 71 to 76 mph almost immediately.
GBM, I am going to say this and then let you go do your thing with your son. No matter what any of us say you're going to do what you want with your son regardless of rhyme or reason. Anything that any of us have said has only been brought up for the sole safety of turnin2 son's arm and overall health along with yours.
I have never been one that had a problem agreeing to disagree about things. The more you talked the more I read some things that you do that I was glad to read. I truly hope that you are in fact doing them instead of appeasing us and just saying it...for your son's sake.
If you were being honest with yourself and went back and re-read your posts here, I think you'd agree that you just might be a little over the top on velocity and pushing your son to find it. What concerns me the most is when your son does begin experiencing some arm/elbow/shoulder soreness and pain and chooses to not tell you because he knows how important velocity is to Dad. Yes, young pitchers do and have held back mentioning the pain for many, many reasons.
One thing that has not been brought up that I was surprised hadnt been was - burnout. There may very well come a time when your son's passion, love, and intensity will not match yours thus his desire to find something else to do. If you are working him right now as much as you say you do with these BP's, camps, games, etc. then I'm afraid that you may be headed there sooner than you wish. Just be aware that this may be happening now without you knowing it.
My best friend played college ball and he coached our son's 11-12yr old LL team. His son was a very, very talented catcher. It was scary how good he was. My friend was constantly working with him not only at practice but at home. When it was time to create and begin a playing with a talented 14yr old group of boys my friends son came into the room where us Fathers were planning and plainly told his dad that he wasn't playing any more baseball and then went outside to shoot hoops. You could've heard a pin drop. He never saw it coming. Needless to say, the team never saw the light of day.
Many fellow posters on here have given you tremendously sound advise due to their many years of having "been there and done that". It is my suggestion to you that you swallow some of your pride and take heart what they've said.
Good luck to your son..afterall..he is the one that counts in all of this.
YGD
I have never been one that had a problem agreeing to disagree about things. The more you talked the more I read some things that you do that I was glad to read. I truly hope that you are in fact doing them instead of appeasing us and just saying it...for your son's sake.
If you were being honest with yourself and went back and re-read your posts here, I think you'd agree that you just might be a little over the top on velocity and pushing your son to find it. What concerns me the most is when your son does begin experiencing some arm/elbow/shoulder soreness and pain and chooses to not tell you because he knows how important velocity is to Dad. Yes, young pitchers do and have held back mentioning the pain for many, many reasons.
One thing that has not been brought up that I was surprised hadnt been was - burnout. There may very well come a time when your son's passion, love, and intensity will not match yours thus his desire to find something else to do. If you are working him right now as much as you say you do with these BP's, camps, games, etc. then I'm afraid that you may be headed there sooner than you wish. Just be aware that this may be happening now without you knowing it.
My best friend played college ball and he coached our son's 11-12yr old LL team. His son was a very, very talented catcher. It was scary how good he was. My friend was constantly working with him not only at practice but at home. When it was time to create and begin a playing with a talented 14yr old group of boys my friends son came into the room where us Fathers were planning and plainly told his dad that he wasn't playing any more baseball and then went outside to shoot hoops. You could've heard a pin drop. He never saw it coming. Needless to say, the team never saw the light of day.
Many fellow posters on here have given you tremendously sound advise due to their many years of having "been there and done that". It is my suggestion to you that you swallow some of your pride and take heart what they've said.
Good luck to your son..afterall..he is the one that counts in all of this.
YGD
CADad,
I think that everyone agrees that measuring a young pitcher's velo is not going to hurt them. But rather the series of events that may follow.
When son was younger the only competition in youth baseball was between teams, now it is player against player and the "how does my player measure up" mode of thinking. Perfect example, though no harm intended, was the question asked that began this topic.
Parents panic when they think that their son may be developmentally behind in sports (yes we have had this discussion) that includes their velocity, in fact they panic more these days about that than if they are behind in the classroom (JMO). There is a HUGE need these days for their player to be better than anyone else's player and brag about it. More of everything seems to be the way to go. That's how it is today in youth sports. I think the use of the radar gun early causes this. Parent points out to player that so and so is pitching harder when they first learn of the velo or one player throws hard in showcases, and others try to throw harder to be better or gain attention etc, etc. Then before you know it a parent puts together a program to increase their velocity, filming, charting, lifting weights, more mound work, farther long toss than the player can handle.
That's why IMO, radar guns are dangerous.
BTW, I beleive that a toss program as well as a conditioning, strengthening program should be tailored for the individual, that's why advice on some things on a message board is not always appropriate (as in the case as the advice GBM has given out what he thinks is a good plan may not be good for others).
And of course the workload has lots to do with it. If GBM really knew what they did in proball, he would find out that a pitcher's bull pen depends on how much time he put in his last outing. If it's short, it's a longer pen, if it was long, it might be a light shorter pen. Some relievers go tot he mound, others on flat ground, there are no rules and everything is flexible depending on the individual.
But again, you are talking about what grown men do not children.
BTW, my son's friend blew out his pitching arm at 15 when younger he pitched at one of those fanfest set ups, no proper warmup, they don't tell you that before you throw the ball.
I think that everyone agrees that measuring a young pitcher's velo is not going to hurt them. But rather the series of events that may follow.
When son was younger the only competition in youth baseball was between teams, now it is player against player and the "how does my player measure up" mode of thinking. Perfect example, though no harm intended, was the question asked that began this topic.
Parents panic when they think that their son may be developmentally behind in sports (yes we have had this discussion) that includes their velocity, in fact they panic more these days about that than if they are behind in the classroom (JMO). There is a HUGE need these days for their player to be better than anyone else's player and brag about it. More of everything seems to be the way to go. That's how it is today in youth sports. I think the use of the radar gun early causes this. Parent points out to player that so and so is pitching harder when they first learn of the velo or one player throws hard in showcases, and others try to throw harder to be better or gain attention etc, etc. Then before you know it a parent puts together a program to increase their velocity, filming, charting, lifting weights, more mound work, farther long toss than the player can handle.
That's why IMO, radar guns are dangerous.
BTW, I beleive that a toss program as well as a conditioning, strengthening program should be tailored for the individual, that's why advice on some things on a message board is not always appropriate (as in the case as the advice GBM has given out what he thinks is a good plan may not be good for others).
And of course the workload has lots to do with it. If GBM really knew what they did in proball, he would find out that a pitcher's bull pen depends on how much time he put in his last outing. If it's short, it's a longer pen, if it was long, it might be a light shorter pen. Some relievers go tot he mound, others on flat ground, there are no rules and everything is flexible depending on the individual.
But again, you are talking about what grown men do not children.
BTW, my son's friend blew out his pitching arm at 15 when younger he pitched at one of those fanfest set ups, no proper warmup, they don't tell you that before you throw the ball.
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
GBM, I am going to say this and then let you go do your thing with your son. No matter what any of us say you're going to do what you want with your son regardless of rhyme or reason. Anything that any of us have said has only been brought up for the sole safety of turnin2 son's arm and overall health along with yours.
I have never been one that had a problem agreeing to disagree about things. The more you talked the more I read some things that you do that I was glad to read. I truly hope that you are in fact doing them instead of appeasing us and just saying it...for your son's sake.
If you were being honest with yourself and went back and re-read your posts here, I think you'd agree that you just might be a little over the top on velocity and pushing your son to find it. What concerns me the most is when your son does begin experiencing some arm/elbow/shoulder soreness and pain and chooses to not tell you because he knows how important velocity is to Dad. Yes, young pitchers do and have held back mentioning the pain for many, many reasons.
One thing that has not been brought up that I was surprised hadnt been was - burnout. There may very well come a time when your son's passion, love, and intensity will not match yours thus his desire to find something else to do. If you are working him right now as much as you say you do with these BP's, camps, games, etc. then I'm afraid that you may be headed there sooner than you wish. Just be aware that this may be happening now without you knowing it.
My best friend played college ball and he coached our son's 11-12yr old LL team. His son was a very, very talented catcher. It was scary how good he was. My friend was constantly working with him not only at practice but at home. When it was time to create and begin a playing with a talented 14yr old group of boys my friends son came into the room where us Fathers were planning and plainly told his dad that he wasn't playing any more baseball and then went outside to shoot hoops. You could've heard a pin drop. He never saw it coming. Needless to say, the team never saw the light of day.
Many fellow posters on here have given you tremendously sound advise due to their many years of having "been there and done that". It is my suggestion to you that you swallow some of your pride and take heart what they've said.
Good luck to your son..afterall..he is the one that counts in all of this.
YGD
YGD,
I appreciate all of the info I get on this forum- it is the best around for getting advice. I respect all of those who post and give their advice here. It is probably hard to convey all of the things we do in the proper light. Often times it may seem that I have turned son into a robot and I am just feeding input into him expecting results.
I have a good relationship with my son. We often talk about baseball, but we also sit and talk about lots of other things. we also do lots of other things. When baseball season is over he hangs up the cleats and we gear up for basketball (watching it mostly). Because we do speak a lot to each other, and I demand nothing from him besides the same respecty I give him, he freely speaks of how he feels about baseball- everything to do with it including how his arm is feeling. He knows that he doesn't have to please Dad to get noticed.
I wish other kids had the relationship that I have with my son. I know him very well and am the main protector of his athletic gifts. I am never afraid to tell a coach that he won't be pitching today because he is tired. Son also realizes the importance of protecting his arm. He realizes that with a lot of hard work and a little luck he has a good shot at playing good in HS and getting an opportunity to play beyond that. First and foremost, that is his dream. My dream is just to see him succeed at those things he works hard at.
Earlier this year he won an essay contest at his school and I couldn't be more proud! Son realizes that He can succeed in anything he wants to and those close to him will be there to support his endeavors, whatever they may be.
My defense on this subject is done with respect to others. I am not saying what they did with their kid is bad, I am just saying that what I do with my kid works for my kid and others can follow if they want.
I am not overly obsessed with velocity, If I was I would own a gun which I could easily pick up. The amount of throwing we do (its not really that much) is for the conditioning of his arm. We also use the bullpens to work on tweaking mechancis and messing around with different grips on different pitches. Sometimes we set up a coke can and he tries to knock it over throwing different pitches. He has fun doing it, and I am just along for the ride mostly. It is a relaxed environment where he chooses when and how much to throw generally. Sometimes we go out to throw a session and we will throw to get warmed up and after 10 minutes or so he will say he is not up to it but that he wants to take some infield instead or do some batting practice instead. Its not as if we stick to this perfectly set schedule of pitching exactly every other day with an exact pitch count. For the most part we do throw about every other day either at practice or at home and it isn't always from a mound or from exactly 60 feet.
Many also don't realize that my son has always been a strong solid kid who is able to do things athletically on a whole different level than most others who play the sport. He has a very heavy bone density (thanks to his Mothers genetics) and as such he also has a wide solid frame. At 5'10" and 180 pounds he is a pretty solid 14 year old. I don't worry as much with my son as I do other kids on the teams he has played on because he has a better build genetically than most others. Some kids I am afraid their arm is going to go flying off if they throw another pitch- scares the **** out of me. I tell them they need to really work on getting stronger before they throw like that so much, but with son it has never been like that- he has always been stocky and strong for his age.
I have found that other people have some pretty good pride also and are too quick to judge others without really finding out the whole situation or story. There are many things I have swallowed my pride on realizing that others have come before me and have experienced everything that still is yet facing me. I come here mostly to read what others have posted and perhaps offer my own advice. Others are free to take it or leave it. i am not a paid instructor nor did I ever pitch a day in my life. But I have learned a lot from coming here, posting here.
Thanks for your kindness.
TPM,
What we say and what we write isn't always what people hear. For example, infielddad said that I was backing up Sultan and GBM and going against you and him. I was only doing so relative to the casual use of radar guns and as far as I can tell we are in violent agreement as to what the kids at various levels of the game should be doing relative to throwing.
It is very easy to misinterpret what people write and what their intentions are. We tend to read between the lines and come up with things that aren't really there. When I read the body of what you have written this is what I hear:
-My son was really, really good from day 1 and he didn't need to do anything extra. Not only was he good but he happened to have an ideal birthdate. We didn't plan it that way it just happened.
The rest of you shouldn't do anything extra with your son because we didn't and if his birthdate wasn't ideal well that's just too bad and if he doesn't go anywhere in baseball well that's just too bad because he doesn't have the talent that my son has.-
Was that what you meant to say? I doubt it very, very much. I'm sure you sincerely mean what you have actually written and nothing more. Unfortunately that isn't always how it comes across to people.
Everything is relative to one's perspective. I've always over reacted to one of TR's favorite sayings "They aren't ready for showcases if they haven't made varsity." Generally speaking he's probably right. However in our area things can be a bit different. When my son was a junior one pitching staff in his league had two 2nd round draft choices, a D1 scholly pitcher, a 25th round choice who got around $250,000 to sign and I believe a 20th round choice who pitched a total of 11 innings that season. That team came in third in the league. I think there may have been kids playing JV who were ready to showcase. I know for a fact that there were 3 or 4 mid to upper 80s kids playing JV in the league that season.
So TR says something that makes perfect sense and my reaction is:
How can you say that! What an insult to the kids in our area.
Ah, the joys of communication via the internet.
What we say and what we write isn't always what people hear. For example, infielddad said that I was backing up Sultan and GBM and going against you and him. I was only doing so relative to the casual use of radar guns and as far as I can tell we are in violent agreement as to what the kids at various levels of the game should be doing relative to throwing.
It is very easy to misinterpret what people write and what their intentions are. We tend to read between the lines and come up with things that aren't really there. When I read the body of what you have written this is what I hear:
-My son was really, really good from day 1 and he didn't need to do anything extra. Not only was he good but he happened to have an ideal birthdate. We didn't plan it that way it just happened.
The rest of you shouldn't do anything extra with your son because we didn't and if his birthdate wasn't ideal well that's just too bad and if he doesn't go anywhere in baseball well that's just too bad because he doesn't have the talent that my son has.-
Was that what you meant to say? I doubt it very, very much. I'm sure you sincerely mean what you have actually written and nothing more. Unfortunately that isn't always how it comes across to people.
Everything is relative to one's perspective. I've always over reacted to one of TR's favorite sayings "They aren't ready for showcases if they haven't made varsity." Generally speaking he's probably right. However in our area things can be a bit different. When my son was a junior one pitching staff in his league had two 2nd round draft choices, a D1 scholly pitcher, a 25th round choice who got around $250,000 to sign and I believe a 20th round choice who pitched a total of 11 innings that season. That team came in third in the league. I think there may have been kids playing JV who were ready to showcase. I know for a fact that there were 3 or 4 mid to upper 80s kids playing JV in the league that season.
So TR says something that makes perfect sense and my reaction is:
How can you say that! What an insult to the kids in our area.
Ah, the joys of communication via the internet.
My son is 14 1/2, never been gunned, so I don't know what his velocity is. Maybe low to mid 60s - the timing of his delivery is a little off, so he seems to be working against himself.
Biologically/developmentally he is a year or more behind his age group, so most of his peers are throwing harder. Right now we are working on mechanics, pitch location, control, balance, flexibility and core conditioning. He is finally starting to grow, so I imagine his velocity will increase - just doing what we can to ensure he has a good foundation.
Last night we finished a summer season in a Colt/Palomino league. Most of the other teams were comprised of kids 16-18, while ours were mostly 15 with a couple of 14s. The result? He was pretty successful when he kept his pitches low, and was hit hard when he left them up. Better than that, though, was that he walked very few and had no wild pitches or passed balls. He has a (sort of) fast ball, a 2-seam with some sink, a change, and a pretty decent curve that he just started throwing in the spring - was able to keep the hitters guessing. His pitches-per-inning were generally low. OTOH, pitchers that had one pitch - a fast ball even with good velocity - usually got pounded.
I imagine that he will develop enough velocity to pitch in high school (as long as he maintains his control) but beyond that I have no idea, nor does anyone else. One advantage re his current lack of velocity - he has not been overworked the past two years. Usually comes in to get the team out of a jam and then stays another inning or two, or is brought in to pitch the last inning. IOW, he is learning to deal with pressure situations and avoid mistakes.
As for a kid being less likely to be injured because they have a certain body type, I'm not sure I agree with that. There is a lot going on in the elbow and shoulder when a pitch is delivered, especially in joints that are not fully matured. Always cringe a little whenever I see a kid 16 or younger throwing really hard.
In short, I would rather have a 10yo (or older) kid who understands pitching rather than one that just throws hard.
Biologically/developmentally he is a year or more behind his age group, so most of his peers are throwing harder. Right now we are working on mechanics, pitch location, control, balance, flexibility and core conditioning. He is finally starting to grow, so I imagine his velocity will increase - just doing what we can to ensure he has a good foundation.
Last night we finished a summer season in a Colt/Palomino league. Most of the other teams were comprised of kids 16-18, while ours were mostly 15 with a couple of 14s. The result? He was pretty successful when he kept his pitches low, and was hit hard when he left them up. Better than that, though, was that he walked very few and had no wild pitches or passed balls. He has a (sort of) fast ball, a 2-seam with some sink, a change, and a pretty decent curve that he just started throwing in the spring - was able to keep the hitters guessing. His pitches-per-inning were generally low. OTOH, pitchers that had one pitch - a fast ball even with good velocity - usually got pounded.
I imagine that he will develop enough velocity to pitch in high school (as long as he maintains his control) but beyond that I have no idea, nor does anyone else. One advantage re his current lack of velocity - he has not been overworked the past two years. Usually comes in to get the team out of a jam and then stays another inning or two, or is brought in to pitch the last inning. IOW, he is learning to deal with pressure situations and avoid mistakes.
As for a kid being less likely to be injured because they have a certain body type, I'm not sure I agree with that. There is a lot going on in the elbow and shoulder when a pitch is delivered, especially in joints that are not fully matured. Always cringe a little whenever I see a kid 16 or younger throwing really hard.
In short, I would rather have a 10yo (or older) kid who understands pitching rather than one that just throws hard.
Velocity at age 10, I think we can all agree that it is not very important.
I always get a kick out of the radar gun thing. Radar guns do not cause arm injuries.
Also, I don't understand how you keep a kid of any age from throwing a ball as hard as he can. Is it simply staying away from a radar gun?
I'd like to ask a few questions of all those old timers who played, let alone pitched.
When you were young, did anyone protect you from arm injury?
Did you ever throw things as hard as you possibly could?
Did you throw for extended periods of time?
Did anyone count the number of throws you made?
Did you make sure you had sufficient recovery time before throwing hard again?
Did you ever play burn out for long periods of time?
If so, did you make sure you didn't throw the ball too hard?
Did anyone have a radar gun on you?
And if you grew up before 1974 had you ever heard of TJ Surgery?
In my younger days, I would throw as hard as I could nearly every day, completely unsupervised for the most part. In the winter, we would have snow ball fights. I'd take the young cold arm and with no warm ups, throw snowballs as hard as I possibly could because you couldn't hit the other guys throwing it softly. Yes I know, that was probably stupid!
Also, not to make light of anyone's opinion, but TJ Surgery these days has a success rate of around 90%. The % of those able to get college scholarships or sign a pro contract is what? TJ surgery is serious, but it's far from the end of the world. For a few, it's even become an advantage. Please don't hope for that!
Personally I think listening to what everyone thinks is a good thing. After all, we can never know for sure who it is that might have it right.
I've said it before and will say it forever, the medical profession will always try to eliminate as much risk as possible. Yet, there's always some risk (pushing the limits) involved when striving to reach your potential.
Probably doesn't have much to do with 10 year olds pitching velocity, but playing it safe is not always the answer. Besides, for parents to play it completely safe they would have to be with their son at all times.
Finally, how do you tell a 10 year old kid who has a good arm and throwing happens to be something he is real good at... To not throw with maximum velocity? How would a radar gun change that? Heck, maybe the gun can actually help find his max velocity, so you can warn him when he throws that hard too often.
Please don't take anything I say too seriously. Truth is, after all this time, I have more questions than answers when it comes to most things.
I always get a kick out of the radar gun thing. Radar guns do not cause arm injuries.
Also, I don't understand how you keep a kid of any age from throwing a ball as hard as he can. Is it simply staying away from a radar gun?
I'd like to ask a few questions of all those old timers who played, let alone pitched.
When you were young, did anyone protect you from arm injury?
Did you ever throw things as hard as you possibly could?
Did you throw for extended periods of time?
Did anyone count the number of throws you made?
Did you make sure you had sufficient recovery time before throwing hard again?
Did you ever play burn out for long periods of time?
If so, did you make sure you didn't throw the ball too hard?
Did anyone have a radar gun on you?
And if you grew up before 1974 had you ever heard of TJ Surgery?
In my younger days, I would throw as hard as I could nearly every day, completely unsupervised for the most part. In the winter, we would have snow ball fights. I'd take the young cold arm and with no warm ups, throw snowballs as hard as I possibly could because you couldn't hit the other guys throwing it softly. Yes I know, that was probably stupid!
Also, not to make light of anyone's opinion, but TJ Surgery these days has a success rate of around 90%. The % of those able to get college scholarships or sign a pro contract is what? TJ surgery is serious, but it's far from the end of the world. For a few, it's even become an advantage. Please don't hope for that!
Personally I think listening to what everyone thinks is a good thing. After all, we can never know for sure who it is that might have it right.
I've said it before and will say it forever, the medical profession will always try to eliminate as much risk as possible. Yet, there's always some risk (pushing the limits) involved when striving to reach your potential.
Probably doesn't have much to do with 10 year olds pitching velocity, but playing it safe is not always the answer. Besides, for parents to play it completely safe they would have to be with their son at all times.
Finally, how do you tell a 10 year old kid who has a good arm and throwing happens to be something he is real good at... To not throw with maximum velocity? How would a radar gun change that? Heck, maybe the gun can actually help find his max velocity, so you can warn him when he throws that hard too often.
Please don't take anything I say too seriously. Truth is, after all this time, I have more questions than answers when it comes to most things.
CADad,
You can read into whatever I wrote, that's your perogative, I was trying to explain why I thought radar guns weren't good for younger players.
Yes, I have seen and met many parents more concerned over their son's velocity than the poor grades they get in school, take that for what you want.
I also did state several times that every player is different, that is why suggestions on what is working for a 14 year old is not always appropriate.
johnu, IMO, has got it right as to what young pitcher year old should be working on.
BTW, a webster here told me that Fick told his son not to worry about the velocity, there are other things young players need to work on. I think that's coming from a guy who didn't throw as hard as others, and still might not, but got his delivery and stuff down pat.
I stand by what I beleive in as well, less of everything is better for every type of pitcher.
Pitchers that throw hard have just as much to worry about as those that don't, so don'think that parents of these type of players have it easy either.
You can read into whatever I wrote, that's your perogative, I was trying to explain why I thought radar guns weren't good for younger players.
Yes, I have seen and met many parents more concerned over their son's velocity than the poor grades they get in school, take that for what you want.
I also did state several times that every player is different, that is why suggestions on what is working for a 14 year old is not always appropriate.
johnu, IMO, has got it right as to what young pitcher year old should be working on.
BTW, a webster here told me that Fick told his son not to worry about the velocity, there are other things young players need to work on. I think that's coming from a guy who didn't throw as hard as others, and still might not, but got his delivery and stuff down pat.
I stand by what I beleive in as well, less of everything is better for every type of pitcher.
Pitchers that throw hard have just as much to worry about as those that don't, so don'think that parents of these type of players have it easy either.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
I'd like to ask a few questions of all those old timers who played, let alone pitched.
When you were young, did anyone protect you from arm injury? No
Did you ever throw things as hard as you possibly could? Yes
Did you throw for extended periods of time? Yes
Did anyone count the number of throws you made? No
Did you make sure you had sufficient recovery time before throwing hard again? No
Did you ever play burn out for long periods of time? Yes
If so, did you make sure you didn't throw the ball too hard? No
Did anyone have a radar gun on you? No
And if you grew up before 1974 had you ever heard of TJ Surgery? No
Good questions.
I was naive and so were the people who tried to teach me how to pitch. The only thing I knew how to do was throw the ball as hard as I could each time and because of that, I suffer from arthritis in my shoulder. I wish someone would have taught me how to pitch and yes pace myself. I wish someone would have stressed that you don't have to throw your hardest to be successful. If I was teaching a young man now, I would teach him about changing speeds each pitch (put a little on, take a little off). I would also teach him to save his hard stuff for when he really needed it which hopefully wouldn't be that often if he was actually learning how to "pitch."
Guess my point was regarding all these injuries these days vs in the past. And the radar gun being some kind of evil instrument.
Kids that can throw hard will throw hard with or without a radar gun around.
IMO. before you can save your hard stuff, you have to have it or develop it. I think the confusion in some of these opinions is because of the age this topic is about (10).
At that age, kids that have a good arm are going to throw hard. I think it's out of everyone’s control, for the most part. Anything else could affect his aggressiveness, which ultimately take away an important item in being a successful pitcher.
So IMO there is nothing wrong with teaching changing speeds and improving pitching skills. Also I don't see anything wrong with striving for a bit more velocity within reason. After all, velocity is a combination of natural ability and good mechanics. Teach a kid good mechanics and he is very likely to throw harder with less stress. To me, that should be the goal... Not necessarily more velocity, but better mechanics... that will end up producing better velocity... and with less strain on the arm which will allow him to stay healthier longer.
No one is immune to arm injury! For most it's just a matter of time. I don't believe that arm surgeries on 22 year olds is a result of what they did at 10 years old.
The goal at 10, be it swinging a bat, pitching, etc. should be on mechanics and hopefully instilling a true love for the game. It's never too young to learn proper technique. These things will serve well as the player matures both physically and mentally.
It would be very interesting to talk to some of the dads of the greatest pitchers ever. Bob Feller, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, etc. Wonder how they went about things? My guess is that there wasn’t a lot of micromanagement involved.
Far from the success of those listed above, my son pitched in the Big Leagues. I really didn’t care that much whether he would be good at baseball. He is the one who cared. I taught him how to throw correctly, never mentioned throwing harder or softer. He, just like most, wanted to throw hard. I never told him not to. TJ Surgery at 23 years old. I think his injury was caused at 23 years old or at least at sometime during his pro career.
Kids that can throw hard will throw hard with or without a radar gun around.
IMO. before you can save your hard stuff, you have to have it or develop it. I think the confusion in some of these opinions is because of the age this topic is about (10).
At that age, kids that have a good arm are going to throw hard. I think it's out of everyone’s control, for the most part. Anything else could affect his aggressiveness, which ultimately take away an important item in being a successful pitcher.
So IMO there is nothing wrong with teaching changing speeds and improving pitching skills. Also I don't see anything wrong with striving for a bit more velocity within reason. After all, velocity is a combination of natural ability and good mechanics. Teach a kid good mechanics and he is very likely to throw harder with less stress. To me, that should be the goal... Not necessarily more velocity, but better mechanics... that will end up producing better velocity... and with less strain on the arm which will allow him to stay healthier longer.
No one is immune to arm injury! For most it's just a matter of time. I don't believe that arm surgeries on 22 year olds is a result of what they did at 10 years old.
The goal at 10, be it swinging a bat, pitching, etc. should be on mechanics and hopefully instilling a true love for the game. It's never too young to learn proper technique. These things will serve well as the player matures both physically and mentally.
It would be very interesting to talk to some of the dads of the greatest pitchers ever. Bob Feller, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, etc. Wonder how they went about things? My guess is that there wasn’t a lot of micromanagement involved.
Far from the success of those listed above, my son pitched in the Big Leagues. I really didn’t care that much whether he would be good at baseball. He is the one who cared. I taught him how to throw correctly, never mentioned throwing harder or softer. He, just like most, wanted to throw hard. I never told him not to. TJ Surgery at 23 years old. I think his injury was caused at 23 years old or at least at sometime during his pro career.
PG,
With all the throwing that you did, how much was it done from a mound?
Isn't there a big difference between throwing and pitching?
TR's line at the bottom holds some truth, kids don't spend enough time throwing, but perhaps spend too much time pitching (and on the mound).
I don't think anyone is arguing that lots of throwing is harmful.
Good point CD. Who teaches a pitcher to pitch their top velocity every pitch? But rather to use that max power when you need it the most.
JMO
With all the throwing that you did, how much was it done from a mound?
Isn't there a big difference between throwing and pitching?
TR's line at the bottom holds some truth, kids don't spend enough time throwing, but perhaps spend too much time pitching (and on the mound).
I don't think anyone is arguing that lots of throwing is harmful.
Good point CD. Who teaches a pitcher to pitch their top velocity every pitch? But rather to use that max power when you need it the most.
JMO
Do they use mounds at 10? It's been awhile since I've seen a 10 year old game.
Pitchers are the ones who "throw" the most. The one thing that all pitchers need to be good at in order to be successful is "throwing". Throwing is more important for a pitcher than any other position.
I don't think anyone teaches pitchers to throw max velocity on every pitch. That would be a big mistake.
Pitchers are the ones who "throw" the most. The one thing that all pitchers need to be good at in order to be successful is "throwing". Throwing is more important for a pitcher than any other position.
I don't think anyone teaches pitchers to throw max velocity on every pitch. That would be a big mistake.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
Pitchers are the ones who "throw" the most. The one thing that all pitchers need to be good at in order to be successful is "throwing". Throwing is more important for a pitcher than any other position.
QUOTE]
Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that.
I am sure that you have read through this entire topic.
So I will ask, what is your opinion on young players 10-14 pitching every other day from a mound?
Pitchers are the ones who "throw" the most. The one thing that all pitchers need to be good at in order to be successful is "throwing". Throwing is more important for a pitcher than any other position.
QUOTE]
Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that.
I am sure that you have read through this entire topic.
So I will ask, what is your opinion on young players 10-14 pitching every other day from a mound?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Do they use mounds at 10? It's been awhile since I've seen a 10 year old game.
Most of them do, and even at younger ages. Fortunately the mounds are lower.
quote:I don't think anyone teaches pitchers to throw max velocity on every pitch. That would be a big mistake.
I would agree with this, but a lot of youth coaches - and some up through high school - are going to put their hardest throwers on the mound. The kids know that they are there because they throw hard, so that's what they keep doing.
Regrettably many coaches, youth and high school, have neither the time or knowledge to effectively teach pitching. Especially true for smaller high schools, where the baseball coach is also an asst. football coach and a teacher. That's not an indictment as much as an observation.
Two years ago I was scorekeeping for a 10yo sectional tournament hosted by our LL. In one game the winning team had two pitchers, both of whom were snapping off curve after curve. Wonder if those kids are going to make it to high school with their arms intact. BTW, they were the coaches' sons.
And before anyone says "Properly thrown curves are no harder on your arm than a fastball" note that I said "snapping" - the action was more like a hard slurve.
Oh my, PG you are a heretic! Radar guns are evil and you will burn in a ring of fire if you use one.
PG,
I played burnout with Dan Pastorini when I was 13. Barehanded. I'm guessing that limited his velocity more than it limited mine.
I played burnout with Dan Pastorini when I was 13. Barehanded. I'm guessing that limited his velocity more than it limited mine.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
Pitchers are the ones who "throw" the most. The one thing that all pitchers need to be good at in order to be successful is "throwing". Throwing is more important for a pitcher than any other position.
QUOTE]
Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that.
I am sure that you have read through this entire topic.
So I will ask, what is your opinion on young players 10-14 pitching every other day from a mound?
It seems as if TPM is not gonna let this one go. Get over it TPM, my son lightly pitches roughly every other day and has been doing it for over 4 years. So what? Are you becoming obsessed with it?
Get over it....
Not to be rude, but......
Totally unbelievable!
Totally unbelievable!
quote:TJ Surgery at 23 years old. I think his injury was caused at 23 years old or at least at sometime during his pro career.
son had TJ at 21. i'm of the belief it was an injury that took years to develop, and showed up one day. i'm not an expert, but i rode by a holliday inn express.
quote:i'm of the belief it was an injury that took years to develop
20dad,
I think that's the case more often than not.
I'm no expert at this stuff, but it's always amazed me how many and what type of pitchers are most likely to have TJ surgery.
I'm not sure I see any correlation between the very hardest throwers and those who don't throw quite as hard.
If we look at the very hardest throwers, and highest strike out pitchers. Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, etc. Why do some of them escape TJ surgery? Especially if velocity is the biggest problem.
Ryan and Johnson may have thrown more pitches over their long careers than anyone in history. Their mechanics were different and both threw more "high velocity" pitches than anyone. I have no idea what they did in their youth years, but if they pitched I bet they threw it real hard for their age!
I think we need to understand that each and every case is somewhat different. I'm not sure there is any proven formula that fits every individual. There's always risk and reward issues.
If you run as fast as you can often enough, sooner or later your likely to hurt something. If you never run fast, you'll never become a fast runner!
quote:If you run as fast as you can often enough, sooner or later your likely to hurt something. If you never run fast, you'll never become a fast runner!
Interesting discussion with metaphors! One way to put gas in the tank is to throw hard. Another way is long toss. Still yet another way is learning proper mechanics and still others include lower body and core work. I am the first guy that would want to see the hard stuff if I knew my kid could throw it. What I would do differently is having them learn to pace themselves, locate the fastball, and learn to pitch to contact if at all possible. I love strikeouts just like the next guy however. When I was talking about changing speeds above, I was not necessarily talking about learning changeups and breaking balls. I was talking more about learning to throw the fastball at different speeds - put a little on and take a little off while locating to both sides of the plate. It seems that approach might require a pitcher to cruise at something less than his max fastball so that if needed to put a little on, he could do it.
I think luck may be the biggest factor of all. There are lots of guys in the minors right now who were drafted in the first round yet previously had TJ surgery. I am not aware of any labrum guys drafted in the first round however.
It is pretty simple for my son these days. Looking at a big enough picture such that the day to day variations in velocity don't cloud the picture, if he throws hard, near his peak velocity a few times a week the velocity stays the same or goes up a slight bit.
If he doesn't throw hard and only throws at his working velocity then the velocity, both working and peak, tend to drop off until he can get in some regular work on throwing hard. Long toss works for throwing hard and throwing hard in the pen with some feedback works.
I think there's a lot of similarity between developing running speed and throwing speed. If you run distances and just jog or run 3/4s when running sprints you aren't going to get faster as a result. If you run sprints and run a lot, but not necessarily all of them all out you are going to get faster. Most kids still won't be sub 7.0 60 runners and very few will get down below 6.5 no matter how much they run so there is a genetic factor involved.
Similary, if you only pitch at BP speeds and never throw all out you aren't going to develop your fastball. If you go out and throw hard at times it will help develop the fastball. Most kids won't get over 85 mph and very few will get over 90 mph no matter how effectively they train to throw hard because there is a genetic factor involved.
Pitching is a little different because there's much more involved in pitching well than just throwing hard and one has to balance working on location, off speed pitches, and pitching in games with working on getting faster.
If he doesn't throw hard and only throws at his working velocity then the velocity, both working and peak, tend to drop off until he can get in some regular work on throwing hard. Long toss works for throwing hard and throwing hard in the pen with some feedback works.
I think there's a lot of similarity between developing running speed and throwing speed. If you run distances and just jog or run 3/4s when running sprints you aren't going to get faster as a result. If you run sprints and run a lot, but not necessarily all of them all out you are going to get faster. Most kids still won't be sub 7.0 60 runners and very few will get down below 6.5 no matter how much they run so there is a genetic factor involved.
Similary, if you only pitch at BP speeds and never throw all out you aren't going to develop your fastball. If you go out and throw hard at times it will help develop the fastball. Most kids won't get over 85 mph and very few will get over 90 mph no matter how effectively they train to throw hard because there is a genetic factor involved.
Pitching is a little different because there's much more involved in pitching well than just throwing hard and one has to balance working on location, off speed pitches, and pitching in games with working on getting faster.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
Pitchers are the ones who "throw" the most. The one thing that all pitchers need to be good at in order to be successful is "throwing". Throwing is more important for a pitcher than any other position.
QUOTE]
Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that.
I am sure that you have read through this entire topic.
So I will ask, what is your opinion on young players 10-14 pitching every other day from a mound?
It seems as if TPM is not gonna let this one go. Get over it TPM, my son lightly pitches roughly every other day and has been doing it for over 4 years. So what? Are you becoming obsessed with it?
Get over it....
GBM...
TPM IMO was simply asking PG his opinion of what he thought of 10-14yr olds pitching every other day from a mound. Nothing more, nothing less. It is a very legitimate question. And the last time I checked this website offers one the freedom to voice and/or express their opinions as they choose.
And I never have a problem with that except when certain individuals want to corner another Poster on here and harass or belittle them. It's not that hard to act your age on here.
What I don't understand is how your posts seem to change like a chameleon on here. One day you are teaching him to throw as hard as he can and the next time he is "lightly" pitching. And earlier you said it WAS every other day and now it's "roughly" every other day.
I think it's already been decided that you do what you feel is necessary with your son. For his sake, we all hope that what you do with him is correct. Only time will tell.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
I think we need to understand that each and every case is somewhat different. I'm not sure there is any proven formula that fits every individual. There's always risk and reward issues.
I think that is what we have been saying here, that each and every pitcher is different and there may not be any proven formula but only can go by what the experts suggest and even then there is controvesy. I go with the theory what makes sense, for each age appropriate in the development of a pitcher. Actually things haven't changed much since our guy was 14, we just used common sense, which is the best advice of all.
Can we not agree that in many cases as in everything else, it can become accumulative?
I am sure that 20dad has gone over in his mind what was done right and what may have done wrong, but I have never heard him come here to suggest what a pitcher should or should not to do because he knows that every pitcher is different and every circumstance is different.
Because you are a hard thrower does not mean injury will or will not happen, the danger in young hard throwers is that they are used often because they are successful, which is true at every level. We can monitor and protect them for so long, that's why I feel it is important to limit what they do when they are are under our control and very young. As I stated here from what a doctor told son, the less time spent pitching is less wear and tear overall, that's why he beleives that son began pitching too soon, at 8. That's an opinion, doesn't mean it's the right one. But it's from a qualified individual who is probably seeing more youth injuries than we do everyday.
The whole object is to get through your youth years, high school years injury free, until your son has been through that situation, you don't realize how that can affect your career, whether it be college or beyond. The bottom line is that Ryan and Johnson are exceptions, IMO, in some place or time all pitchers get injured, you want to be at a certain place where a year off doesn't mean that you will be discarded because of injury. Yes that's the chance you take pitching, but most people don't realize that injuries before college, injuries before pro baseball can place a stigma on you, damaged goods. Shoulder surgry being the biggest for pitchers. That prevents larger scholarhips and larger signing bonus (if that's your goal). For those that think that if you make it to pro ball and get injured then they will provide the BEST care, that is not always true, minor leaguers are subject to the care of the team doctor for all expenses paid, although allowed a second opinion, any care not within the team doctor might be strictly at your expense. Most milb players with major issues, especially shoulders, get fixed up, rehabbed and released. Seriously, you don't want to sustain a major injury in milb. Let's alos not compare proven ML pitchers that have come back from injury to college or pro players that haven't.
GBM,
I also noticed that you change your stories, first it's throwing from the mound as hard as he can to develop his velo, now it's lightly throwing, which is it really? We have no way of knowing what you are doing will prevent any injury, so yes I am obsessive about parents with 14 year olds giving advice as to how he is breeding his pitcher. It may be good, it may be bad, come back in a few years and then let us know, don't you get that? Anyone of us whose sons are a bit older can give you a list of things that you should or shouldn't do, but that wouldn't be realistic would it, as every pitcher is different, so why give it looking forward?
And yes I can ask PG anything I want, even though I haven't ever received a reply, he knows me and our player for a long time. I give him the right to reserve his opinion of me
, not you.CADad,
Good post. Since son has been feeling better, and a FB pitcher, he has to throw in game situations and BP his hardest frequently (to learn to accuratley hit spots with his highest velocity), those are things that you have to do because you are being paid to do so, so I understand what you are saying.
But he is 24 close to 25.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
I noticed that you change your stories, first it's throwing from the mound as hard as he can to develop his velo, now it's lightly throwing, which is it really? We have no way of knowing what you are doing will prevent any injury, so yes I am obsessive about parents with 14 year olds giving advice as to how he is breeding his pitcher. It may be good, it may be bad, come back in a few years and then let us know, don't you get that? Anyone can give you a list of things that you should or shouldn't do, looking back, but that wouldn't be realistic would it, as every pitcher is differnt, so why give it looking forward?
And yes I can ask PG anything I want, even though I haven't ever received a reply, he knows me and my player for a long time. I give him the right to reserve his opinion of me, not you.
I never changed any story. You keep assuming things. That I believe is your problem. You don't ask questions- you just start assuming things..
When i mentioned "lightly throwing" I meant it in the context of "pitch count". Once again you assume too much and take things out of context. You do so in a negative manner, trying to paint me as a fool to the other posters. Be more polite and ask some questions first before you just go off accusing me of changing stories.
I also suggest that you don't hammer me so bad on what you have no idea about- you are in the same position as I on what may or amy not work. But for you to just come off in a an all out assault on what I have found to work so far with my son with proven results to me states that you just personally have something against me. Are you a paid pitching instructor? How many books have you wrote on the matter? We are both in that same boat- going for a ride not knowing beforehand what will positively work and what will not. We both try different currents to navigate and as such shouldn't critisize each other until the journey is over.
Have I ever questioned what you did with your son?
I didn't think so, show the same respect.
I wasn't the only one who noticed that things change, that's not my fault if you are not getting your point across as to what you meant.
I always thought there was a big difference between a light pen vs. a short pen.
Or is that different language used for different parts of the country.
I don't always agree with CADad, but he gets his point across well and BTW has made some good subtle suggestions here.
You also don't seem too flexible in your posts, like it's my way and my opinion and I am sticking to it. Lots of this has to do with being flexible. You have been given some good pointers here with some people far more knowlegeable than me, but it doesn't seem to matter, your way is working so you are sticking to it. You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone.
I did question you, you didn't answer. For example, how many pitches total in a week does he throw on the mound?
Do I like you, I don't know you, just don't like some of what you preach here.
And that's my opinion and I am sticking to it.
Best of luck to you and your son, hopefully all that you are trying to achieve will pay off for him someday, and you. Whatever you do though, don't push him to prove others wrong, do it for the right reasons.
I always thought there was a big difference between a light pen vs. a short pen.
Or is that different language used for different parts of the country.
I don't always agree with CADad, but he gets his point across well and BTW has made some good subtle suggestions here.
You also don't seem too flexible in your posts, like it's my way and my opinion and I am sticking to it. Lots of this has to do with being flexible. You have been given some good pointers here with some people far more knowlegeable than me, but it doesn't seem to matter, your way is working so you are sticking to it. You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone.
I did question you, you didn't answer. For example, how many pitches total in a week does he throw on the mound?
Do I like you, I don't know you, just don't like some of what you preach here.
And that's my opinion and I am sticking to it.
Best of luck to you and your son, hopefully all that you are trying to achieve will pay off for him someday, and you. Whatever you do though, don't push him to prove others wrong, do it for the right reasons.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I did question you, you didn't answer. For example, how many pitches total in a week does he throw on the mound?
Son pitches around 100-125 per week including pens and games.
How many books have I written on the subject? Several, but for some reason nobody buys them. 
Sorry, too fun of a question to pass up even if it wasn't for me.
Sorry, too fun of a question to pass up even if it wasn't for me.
Heard recently that a kid's total season pitch count should not exceed his age x 100.
I am sure this can't include bullpens....right?
I am sure this can't include bullpens....right?
I'm pretty sure that the pitch counts only include the pitches in games and not bullpens, warmup pitches, etc.
One just has to use a bit of common sense when including bullpens and other throwing in the "equation".
One just has to use a bit of common sense when including bullpens and other throwing in the "equation".
Pitch counts are a good counter-measure to injury but I still see kids in leagues who abide by the pitch count guidelines that have sore elbows and shoulders. For some kids I know, it seems that everytime they throw they have some elbow and shoulder pain. So whereas the pitch counts will benefit these kids and prevent them from being thrown too much, I am not sure much of anything is being done to fix or correct the majority of kids who have pain when they throw. Most coaches and parents solutions are to just throw some ice on it. For some it means strengthening the arm through exercises hoping it wil go away. A few seek real solutions by going and getting advice on what is causing it prompting them to have the change they need.
There is a saying that there are "only so many bullets in a gun". Yes that is true if there is a mechanical flaw and you can't reload the gun- so it is with pitchers. If they are always in pain and it just seems to get worse the harder they throw or the more they continue to throw then yes, there are only so many bullets in the gun before they blow out the arm.
So whereas I like the idea behind pitch counts preventing over zealous parents and coaches from ruining arms, I still feel that not much is being done on the local level to teach and instruct youth, parents and coaches about avoiding injury brought on by certain types of persistant pain. Coach recently told son to go home and ice the arm. We told him that son never ices the arm- never has a need to ice it. I often wonder if somehow the process of "icing" the arm is just a way of bypassing or overlooking a problem in a lot of pitchers without ever really looking for solutions to actually prevent the pain in the first place.
There is a saying that there are "only so many bullets in a gun". Yes that is true if there is a mechanical flaw and you can't reload the gun- so it is with pitchers. If they are always in pain and it just seems to get worse the harder they throw or the more they continue to throw then yes, there are only so many bullets in the gun before they blow out the arm.
So whereas I like the idea behind pitch counts preventing over zealous parents and coaches from ruining arms, I still feel that not much is being done on the local level to teach and instruct youth, parents and coaches about avoiding injury brought on by certain types of persistant pain. Coach recently told son to go home and ice the arm. We told him that son never ices the arm- never has a need to ice it. I often wonder if somehow the process of "icing" the arm is just a way of bypassing or overlooking a problem in a lot of pitchers without ever really looking for solutions to actually prevent the pain in the first place.
Icing too far after the fact is wasted effort anyway. Every single authority I've discussed it with want immediately post pitching for 15-20 minutes, then shower, then only if needed, my son doesn't regularly ice but has on occasion, depending on the outing and how he feels when he walks off. Going home and icing would be somewhat indicative of someone who "wants to help" but just leans back on conventional wisdom without actually knowing the wisdom.
The problem with pitch counts is that the guys who "really" need them figure ways around them (I'm speaking of youth players here).
Many parents who "fall" for the Travel scene won't be observing p counts on the little league view..they will still find tourneys where they can go back to back or double the load on a Saturday...Unfortunately the same kids are likely the "hotshot" so with non-conditioned arms they take on a major league or college like load..it doesn't take the swamey to know the arm won't hold up to that.....and darned if it doesn't...time after time..not hold up..this is where Dr. Andrews gets his youth clients..not from the LL WS. Heck if kids were "limited" to just LL I'd bet the number of arm injuries would plummet. Real world though, that doesn't happen.
The problem with pitch counts is that the guys who "really" need them figure ways around them (I'm speaking of youth players here).
Many parents who "fall" for the Travel scene won't be observing p counts on the little league view..they will still find tourneys where they can go back to back or double the load on a Saturday...Unfortunately the same kids are likely the "hotshot" so with non-conditioned arms they take on a major league or college like load..it doesn't take the swamey to know the arm won't hold up to that.....and darned if it doesn't...time after time..not hold up..this is where Dr. Andrews gets his youth clients..not from the LL WS. Heck if kids were "limited" to just LL I'd bet the number of arm injuries would plummet. Real world though, that doesn't happen.
The need for ice depends on the individual. Inflammation can become a problem in and of itself once it gets past a certain point. Icing can help some people from getting to that point. When there is pain or significant soreness after throwing icing is usually a good idea to keep inflammation from getting out of hand. Significant doses of anti-inflammatories can also keep inflammation from getting out of hand but they can have negative side effects such as being bad for bone healing thereby increasing the probability of stress reactions/stress fractures.
On one hand not everyone needs to ice. On the other hand, there are people who benefit from icing and a policy of not icing will put them at risk.
On one hand not everyone needs to ice. On the other hand, there are people who benefit from icing and a policy of not icing will put them at risk.
