Velocity for age 10

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
GBM, I don't think anyone is saying that the baseball world is not obsessed with velocity. I don't think anyone is saying that kids aren't competitive. At least what I am saying is that prior to a certain point, velocity should not be so important. These kids should be working on developing solid, repeatable mechanics so that when their bodies are capable of throwing at higher velocities, they will have a better chance of remaining injury free.

I also think that how hard a kid throws at an early age does not necessarily translate into how hard they will be throwing at an advanced age.

I think people are also saying that your son is not old enough to know for sure whether what you are doing will work. Your method of just telling your son to "throw harder" and do full out bullpens as often as you do is out of the norm of what is taught. At 14, you just don't know if it will help or hurt in the long run. Wait till your son is 16-18 and unhurt, then you can say how well your methods have worked.

I am not teaching my son to go out and throw his hardest. I am teaching him to maintain a decent velocity and not fall into the trap of placing it.

Velocity is important to work on even from an early age- not that it should be the main focus at 10 years of age, but that when they do start throwing they need to work on arm strength which basically equates to velocity. Good mechanics go hand in hand with velocity, so if one works on his mechanics, in reality he is working on his velocity whether he realizes it or not.

As for bullpens which i have always maintained to be short (30-40 pitches) at every other day is not a hard thing nor is it overdoing it. That is perfectly normal for 13-14 year old travel teams.

Younggundad,

are you trying to tell mw that you have never went to an event where they had a gun set up and didn't see any 10 year olds seeing how hard they throw? If that is the case you must live on Mars.

You can't be serious that LL kids do not wonder what velocity they or their teamates pitch at. Thats ridiculous.

As far as I can tell, from this board, that velocity is as much or more of a focal point than any other subject in developing baseball players.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

As for bullpens which i have always maintained to be short (30-40 pitches) at every other day is not a hard thing nor is it overdoing it. That is perfectly normal for 13-14 year old travel teams.

Sorry, but I don't think that is normal. If you pitch in a game, you should take a minimum of 3 days off from mound work. You should also not throw a bullpen the day before you pitch. I don't see how you can throw a bullpen everyother day. That is too much throwing from a mound. During our season, which basically runs from March thru the end of July, we are lucky to get in one bullpen per week between starts. Usually want to make sure his arm is plenty rested before next start. He will do long toss, but not a lot of bull pen work.

I guess it's true, if you have it you don't worry about it, it you don't you do.

CADad, lucky you weren't son's little league coach, Mr. TPM would have pulled his son out the next day. Did you put the radar gun on them to see how hard they were throwing or how hard your son was throwing? BTW, wondering if all that you may have done with your obsession with velocity worked out for yor player actually made him throw harder?

I find it interesting that you have all teh answers but come on to ask why son's velocity can vary at times, is that a real question or do you want us to know how he is doing?

About the statement regarding having to pitch 90 to get consideration, there is a pitcher drafted by the Cards, I think out of college he was just hitting 87-88. He is now considered a true prospect in the organization, check out PJ Walters, he's on the 40 man roster and I think he hits 91-92 max now. There are a few other pitchers who when they came into the organization were not hitting 90, now they are and having success at the level they are at, not sure what that will translate into, but that is not what they were at when drafted but what some are now. As you said yourself it's about pitchability and IMO future projection more than anything. These kids obviuosly didn';t hit that majic number but got opportunities, why do you suppose that is?

GBM, we didn't care and son didn't care what he was throwing, the guns on the LLWS players makes me sick. I don't even watch it. Hey, didn't Dr. Andrews say that using the velocity gun on young player only makes them throw harder when they shouldn't (yes many pitch to the gun), and this could cause injury. I understand your point on having parental control to avoid injury, but in reality IMO, most parents end up causing problems as well as their coaches, over bearing trainers, etc. You can do as you wish with your own player, that's your business. But don't try to convince others this is what works, that is what is working at 14 not what may be at 19-20, 24 or 25.

The only time we were concerned with son's velocity was senior year in HS, because we got all caught up in that hoopla (like most folks do), in the end it didn't mean anything because he was off to school, where he gained more meaningful velocity. Lessons learned. The only reason we, he or they care about it now is because loss of velocity can signal injury. Don't think because this is your obsession it's others. We never did endless comparisons, that isn't and wasn't important. Actually if I think back, he hit 90 in HS while others were hitting higher, FWIW they aren't playing anymore. It is not perfectly natural to know where you stack up at 10, unless your dad has placed an importance on how you stack up.

GBM your statment, about being obsessed with gaining more velocity "because it breeds ( ugh that choice of word, BREED) into pitchers able to throw upper 90's and living the high life for the select few who can bring it". I think that is where the problem lies, too many people chasing dreams for their kids. They just do a lot of watching baseball at the highest level and dream, where they would like to see their player someday or how the young player says he wasnts to play proball someday, young players have no clue, nor do their parents. I'll bet you stay up at night thinking about how to spend his money!

BTW, I don't think that you have any idea even what it is to hit 85, 90 let alone 98. Most of the time, this comes naturally to most of those who do. You will see significant gains as your son develops and matures, don't panic the day it stops. Our sons biggest came in college, and a few more afterwards, mostly nore power in the legs and core and lower body, again the power does not come from the arm, but you don't get that.

By the way, we really should focus more on raising kids rather than breeding pitchers, shouldn't we?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
By the way, we really should focus more on raising kids rather than breeding pitchers, shouldn't we?

I have not read much in this thread but it makes me sick to my stomach to think anyone is worried about pitching velo at age 10. They should be chasing frogs (or some other slimy creature) & messing around with their friends in their neighborhood. As far as sports is should be baseball in baseball season, basketball in bb season, etc etc etc (all league in their community)

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

As for bullpens which i have always maintained to be short (30-40 pitches) at every other day is not a hard thing nor is it overdoing it. That is perfectly normal for 13-14 year old travel teams.

Sorry, but I don't think that is normal. If you pitch in a game, you should take a minimum of 3 days off from mound work. You should also not throw a bullpen the day before you pitch. I don't see how you can throw a bullpen everyother day. That is too much throwing from a mound. During our season, which basically runs from March thru the end of July, we are lucky to get in one bullpen per week between starts. Usually want to make sure his arm is plenty rested before next start. He will do long toss, but not a lot of bull pen work.

I am curious to know how much pitching off a mound a middle reliever or closer does in the majors? I am guessing that they throw off a mound pretty much at least every other day if not more and when they do come into a game that they do not take 3 days off before taking to it again. I am not speaking of long outings, I am speaking about pitching in short reps often enough (every other day). Arm pain would obviously be a signal of too much pitching. So, in my sons case, if he complains of no pain is that an ok to let him throw or should I prohibit him from all throwing? Just curious.

Do not compare the 10 to 13 year old to MLB players---two totally different animals---

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Do not compare the 10 to 13 year old to MLB players---two totally different animals---

No, just smaller animals of the same. They use bats, son uses bats. They throw from an elevated mound, son throws from an elevated mound. They play on 60/90, son plays on 60/90. They have "fastballs" and "Breaking balls", son has fastball and breaking ball.

I do not understand thus what you mean. Son does the same thing they do, just on a smaller scale.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

Younggundad,

are you trying to tell mw that you have never went to an event where they had a gun set up and didn't see any 10 year olds seeing how hard they throw? If that is the case you must live on Mars.

That's exactly what I am telling you. Not trying. Not 1 gun has ever been around a 10yr old game Ive been to. Well, maybe a toy gun.

You can't be serious that LL kids do not wonder what velocity they or their teamates pitch at. Thats ridiculous.

No. Not ridiculous at all. A reality. You keep pounding the same drum and I keep telling you that not every kid in America cares how FAST another is throwing. Who cares for pete sake?!

As far as I can tell, from this board, that velocity is as much or more of a focal point than any other subject in developing baseball players.

You keep throwing the baby out with the bath water every time you reply back. Yes velocity is a well versed topic here on HSBBW, however, 99.9% of the time it's in the context of 16yr olds and up. And to narrow it on down it's more about those kids who are looking to finding a college after HS or players hoping to get drafted.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

As for bullpens which i have always maintained to be short (30-40 pitches) at every other day is not a hard thing nor is it overdoing it. That is perfectly normal for 13-14 year old travel teams.

Sorry, but I don't think that is normal. If you pitch in a game, you should take a minimum of 3 days off from mound work. You should also not throw a bullpen the day before you pitch. I don't see how you can throw a bullpen everyother day. That is too much throwing from a mound. During our season, which basically runs from March thru the end of July, we are lucky to get in one bullpen per week between starts. Usually want to make sure his arm is plenty rested before next start. He will do long toss, but not a lot of bull pen work.

I am curious to know how much pitching off a mound a middle reliever or closer does in the majors? I am guessing that they throw off a mound pretty much at least every other day if not more and when they do come into a game that they do not take 3 days off before taking to it again. I am not speaking of long outings, I am speaking about pitching in short reps often enough (every other day). Arm pain would obviously be a signal of too much pitching. So, in my sons case, if he complains of no pain is that an ok to let him throw or should I prohibit him from all throwing? Just curious.

This is where you don't get it, as TR says, and we all have said, you cannot compare young pitchers to what grown men get paid to do.

Not having arm pain doesn't signal that everything is ok, sometimes it just hits you all at one time, that's what this is all about. What you do today affects you down the road.

Pitching from the mound too often is not good, but these guys are trained and conditioned as releivers or starters to do that by professionals getting paid to do so. Some pro relievers will "throw" a pen if they haven't put in enough time that week, same for a closer, others just throw from flat ground, but the philosophy is always the same, save the bullets. All toss everyday except for pitching day.

This is the point, you derive your "training" for your young son from what grown men do, that's where you are making a HUGE mistake.

The pitching nannies are out in full force today.

quote:

Gman - I am not teaching my son to go out and throw his hardest. I am teaching him to maintain a decent velocity and not fall into the trap of placing it.

GMan, they are not listening or reading your posts.

quote:

TPM - I'll bet you stay up at night thinking about how to spend his money!

TPM, please. You have crossed over from trying to convince someone, to just being plain vicious.

Also:

quote:

didn't Dr. Andrews say that using the velocity gun on young player only makes them throw harder when they shouldn't (yes many pitch to the gun), and this could cause injury

He does say this (or ASMI does). He has shown no scientific evidence for this wive's tale, either. I will wager that nobody here has ever heard of a kid being injured by a radar gun.

TPM,

Really, you make no sense. Who do we go to for advice and training at the highest level in baseball? Maybe you have forgot but when you go to a baseball camp, the instructors are usually retired professional ballplayers. And what do they instruct? Certainly not ring-around-the-rosie! No, they teach the same drills they teach their full time players.

We went to a camp last winter and the first day they had them stretch and throw for about an hour to get loosened up. Then they took them back and did some band-work. Then they took them on the various mounds set up and let them throw their bullpen while they video-taped them. The next day they did the same sequence all over again only the bullpens were really short. the last day they did it all again and this time gunned them. The emphasis they taught was conditioning the body to be able to throw a lot and be protected by a stronger all around muscular build and shape of the body.

Now I don't know about you but from what I gathered, they were teaching these young pitchers the same exact drills and routine they teach for their various colleges and pro-ball teams. So take your "huge mistake" complaint to the professional level. I found it interesting that what I had been teaching my son was exactly what the professionals were teaching to youth pitchers. They emphasised over and over agin about stretching and other various drills that built the right muscles to be able to throw a baseball without pain and a reduction in possible injury

[QUOTE]

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

The pitching nannies are out in full force today.

[QUOTE]

Gee, I wonder why Swat.

GBM:

I may get hammered on this but....always be concerned with your kids velocity- even at 10. I worked with my kid since he was 10 on throwing strikes while maitaining a high velocity. I taught him early that when he is struggling to find the zone that throwing a little harder will help him locate it better.

There is nothing wrong with pitching at an early age or throwing hard at an early age.

Lets be honest, velocity, even at an early age, is what draws those kids into being pitchers

What I have taught my son about pounding the strike zone with decent velocity works.

everyone wants to know what velocity they throw

Is velocity important? Yes it is

hard throwers will always get the 1st nod on the mound- that is how important velocity is. And someone will always know or want to know "how fast" a pitcher throws.

I guess we are all a little obsessed with velocity.

Velocity is important to work on even from an early age

that velocity is as much or more of a focal point than any other subject in developing baseball players

Can you see the trend here Swat or shall I go on? You seem to be the bright one here so surely you can "get it" now.

So yes, we ARE reading and listening to his posts but sometimes common sense just doesn't sink it, now does it Swat? Hello, Mcfly....?!

TPM's comment wasn't "vicious" as you so eloquently stated. Her remark to him was dead on in hopes that he just MIGHT see how obsessed he is with trying to further his son's success while compromising his health along the way.

And your remark about what Dr. Andrews is saying about pitching to the radar guns is childish at best. He probably more than anyone in the U.S. is very aware of what young arms go through when overworked or mistreated. The radar guns are the culprit while the young arms are the victims.

Your personal vendetta against TPM is tiring and growing quite old. Either choose to ignore what you read by her and move on or quit trying to continue attacking her here as an adult would do.

YGD

To me, there are pretty clear cut distinctions to be appreciated:
1.) If anyone is going to compare pitching as a 14 year old with what happens to relief pitchers in MLB, they need to go to the offices of Dr. Andrews, visit training rooms, check the 7 day, 15 day and 60 day DL and have a full understanding of the number of MLB pitchers having arm problems.
2.) Anyone who is the parent of a 14 year old needs to fully appreciate how pitchers are handled in Milb, when they are not making big dollars but have potential. Some of those guys are pitching one to two innings every 4-6 days, are on pitch counts, are icing, doing stim and are following every team mandated requirements to protect their arms.
3.) Every one of our sons, before they get to college, trust their parent to make the best decisions for their health and the protection of their arm. It strikes me as unbelievable that those who have been through the entire process are being ridiculed and accused of being "vicious" for offering opinions based on experience, the experience of having son's compete at the highest levels of college and Milb.
Every parent is a trustee for the health of their son until their son is in a position to make those decisions for themselves. Having been through college, Milb and the like provides experience.
Having been in training rooms, doctor's offices and the life provides experience and reference points.
If anyone with a 14 year old wants to use MLB pitchers as a reference and comparison point, they need to spend one week at the Andrews group or Kerlan-Jobe and watch the number of Milb and MLB pitchers coming through with arm issues.
If a parent is truly the trustee of the baseball health of their son, it is time to head to the doctors offices and see the downside of the DL. They show all those suffering arm injuries in Baseball America... in small print.
They don't show it on Fox or ESPN.

TPM,
Gee, I'm sorry I gunned the 12yo kids at one practice for 3 or 4 pitches apiece and told them they had to throw strikes to hear what their velocity was. None of my pitchers ever hurt their arms while they were pitching for me. Over a 5 game LL all-star tournament no pitcher threw more than 7 innings. 3 kids off that LL staff are pitching in college. I had one parent complain because I wouldn't call enough curves. I told the dad his kid had potential and needed to throw his fastball, develop a change and not throw curves. The same parent was quite happy a few years later when I called a scout I knew over to see the kid throwing up to 89 as a HS junior. He's the one who is up to 93 now. Oh, BTW when my son was young we had him do some very limited weighted ball training using the Bagonzi approach which was mostly flipping the ball with the wrist and only light throwing with the 6oz weighted ball. He picked up 2 mph over 9 weeks. It made for an award winning science project. There was another dad on this site who worked with both of his kids on velocity starting from an early age. One was the national youth player of the year and the other less known boy is at a major D1. Both throw well over 90.

Your insults and the airs you put on get old. You insist that nobody talks about your son or the clip of him that is public domain and then you use him to back up your arguments on a regular basis. No I didn't gun them to see what my son was throwing. His pitching instructor at the time, who was the Weaver's coach when they were young, gunned him and had him throw a few hard pitches at the end of every lesson. Them poor Weaver boys getting gunned when they were young. It sure ruined them.

BTW, back off saying things about my son. People have shared a few things about your son with me that I've kept to myself.

We've played baseball. We have been through it ourselves. We've suffered the sore arms and been in front of the scouts ourselves. I threw a pen for the Lachemann brothers when I was playing rookie ball for the Angels and didn't have enough velocity to interest them. The next pen I threw hard and didn't worry about control. All of a sudden they noticed me. I know exactly how important velocity is to someone who doesn't have it. I had the best stats by far on my legion team. The other two pitchers threw harder. 1 was drafted in the 4th round and the other pitched in the big leagues. The scouts were right. They had more potential.

I'm happy for the kid who got a chance, he was an exception and he was projectable or he wouldn't have gotten the chance. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if this is his information off the PG site

quote:

Walters is a tall RHP/3B with lots of body to grow into. He projects in a big way and he could really be something special in a few years. He already flashes border line tools and a feel for the game. He does everything fairly well, but hasn't developed that one tool that stands out as a MLB plus. He is athletic and he is a tall lanky guy. He throws well, runs well and has nice actions. He can hit and he projects to hit with big time power. He has a great approach, very quiet. He throws in the 80s sometimes much better from the mound. He has a very good sharp breaking ball that breaks late. He can pitch and might end up being a professional pitcher. As you can see, Walters does everything real good. And he projects real good. If all those tools go up a grade, he's a real good draft pick. He might be anyway.

Those PG guys are pretty good at what they do.

Kids have to learn how to pitch and they have to learn how to throw hard. The two are not exclusive.

GBM,
I believe 30 to 40 pitch pens every other day is a bit too much for most pitchers at almost any level. TPM is right that most organizations use a mixture of long toss, flat grounds and pens to keep pitchers sharp and their arms reasonably safe.

JMO, but pitchers need a minimum of two days rest at least once a week. Muscles can recover on one day's rest for a while but tendons and ligaments recover much more slowly and eventually can be injured by throwing hard every other day. Those injuries can take a long time to show up but they can be quite serious when they do show up. When the Cardinals scout team run by Chuck Fick was working with my son on his pitching they insisted that work on developing his velocity as well as on his pitchability but they certainly didn't have him throwing pens every other day. I wasn't there but I believe a typical week included one long toss session followed by a flatground, one pen and one short pitching stint. They did gun him every time he pitched. Interestingly enough both his control and his velocity improved. Flatgrounds by themselves are almost useless but when used as an adjunct to bullpens they can be very useful in allowing pitchers to work on things without stressing their arm as much.

I used PG as an example that you don't have to have 90+ to get noticed and that many pichers mature later on. Using Chuck Fick is a great example of how long it takes to develop that velocity. Thanks for the example. Yes you have to learn how to pitch and pitch hard, at the appropriate time, that is all I am saying and all I have ever said. And you can't model others success because eachand every young pitcher is differnt and develops differently, all I am saying is wait until they are older to begin measureing velocity and looking for results, is that bad?

No LL coach should place a radar gun on a young pitcher for any reason, JMO.

You didn't answer my question, what did you do with your son to increase his velocity and did it work, and has he ever sustained an injury? This is nothing negative I am asking a question. Who cares if your son used weighted balls to increase his velocity, did that make a huge difference in being a better younger pitcher?

Did the Weaver brothers ever sustain injuries?

You post clips of a pitcher and add a negative critique, why not get recent clips why use one that is 4 years old? If people want to say stuff about son, that's their issue, they don't know him well enough to say anything negative.

One thing though, I notice that you are finally giving GBM some advice that was given way back on page one.

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
The radar guns are the culprit while the young arms are the victims.

Can you list one youth player that was injured by a radar gun? There must be thousands, or millions, of them. I gunned hundreds of them over several years, and nobody went to the hospital. Should PG stop using them?

I can understand that you may choose not to gun your child. I don't have any problems with that.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
The radar guns are the culprit while the young arms are the victims.

Can you list one youth player that was injured by a radar gun? There must be thousands, or millions, of them. I gunned hundreds of them over several years, and nobody went to the hospital. Should PG stop using them?

I can understand that you may choose not to gun your child. I don't have any problems with that.

Sultan, the orginal post was about 10 year olds. Once you reach HS, if you want to go to the next level, radar guns are inevitible. Radar guns do not physically hurt people. The problem is that often times, when the gun comes out, kids will overthrow to try to impress the gun. When they do this, mechanics suffer and they are more likely to either hurt themselves right then, or possibly cause some damage that they are not aware of that will come back to haunt them down the road.

You seem like a pretty knowledgeable person. I can't imagine that you are advocating for the use of radar guns for 10 year olds. Like I said earlier, at those younger ages, focus should be on solid, repeatable mechanics and control/command. Once they get older, worry about velocity. But, even then, kids need to be taught to not overthrow and let mechanics suffer at the expense of trying to throw hard. Once the kids are in HS, they should be mature enough to throw within themselves whether the guns are there or not.

I think I, and everyone here, realizes that if you want to go to MLB - and to a lesser extent, college - you have to have good velocity. It does matter. However, at 10 - 13 or 14 years old, velocity should not be the main focus.

Until my son was 13, and I bought a gun for coaching reasons, I had no idea how hard he threw. He may have thrown at one of those fair throwing booths or at Turner Field at a Braves game, but if he did, I don't remember. Don't ever remember seeing a radar gun at a ballfield until he was 14. Even after I got the gun, I only brought it out 3 times per year, just to measure progress over the course of the year.

Believe me when I say I am not against radar guns. However, there is a time and place for everything. 10 years old is not the time to be worring about it.

What little I've read of this thread is insane!

Reminds me of the phone call I got from a dad of a 10-year old about 4 or 5 years ago. Asked what kind of "throwing program" I had our older son on when he was 10?

WTF?

After consulting with a few experts, I think I replied something like, "He threw dirt clods at cats and rocks at the stop sign down the street...and ate a lot of ice cream for building mass!"

Let kids be kids.

TPM,
Every time we've had a chance to work on my son's velocity for an extended period of time he's added velocity. When he stops making the effort to throw hard on a somewhat regular basis and especially when he's throwing a lot of innings and can't safely throw pens it tends to get inconsistent. He's probably near his genetic limits at this point topping out at 88. He projects to top at about 91 according to multiple sources and we'd like him to get there sooner rather than later but for the moment we are working on his release point and cleaning up the mechanics. Once he gets a break from the college program and after a couple weeks off to rest his arm we'll work the velocity for a few weeks.

Yes, the weighted ball work did help him be a better young pitcher, but over the long term long toss and simply throwing hard pens and throwing hard in games when appropriate has done the most for his velocity.

Personally I'd just like to see a bit higher and more consistent working velocity and could care less what he tops out at. Normal increases with age would have him topping out at 90 to 91 by the time he graduates from college.

My son had an arm injury at 14yo from throwing too much from 3rd base due to an absolutely unqualified HS freshman coach. The injury was an olecranon stress reaction and was growth related. He inherited relatively porous bones from his mom and it is just something we had to keep an eye on while he was still growing. We shut him down and it was recovering just fine but the totally unqualified 18yo HS freshman coach started him at SS before he had recovered when I didn't show up to stop it. He won the position but reinjured the arm and lost an entire season. Fortunately, he's never had a ligament or tendon injury. He did suffer a small muscle tear in his brachialis muscle during physical therapy when they used the wrong setting on a Cybex machine. That's the extent of his arm injuries other than minor inflammation due to irritation of synovial plica in his forearm which probably resulted from the stress reaction at 14yo. Will he go the rest of his "career" without an arm injury? Who knows? He'll almost certainly have to get the plica scoped if he keeps on throwing long enough but we can only hope he gets to keep playing that long.

Now why don't you go ahead and give us some detail about your son's arm injury history.

Remember SocaldadX5? Why don't you ask him what throwing program his kids were on at 10yo and what the result was.

There are people who believe that the best time to develop velocity is before the kids have started their growth spurts as there is less chance for serious injury and the body tends to remodel better in response to the stimulus of throwing hard. There are others who think just the opposite.

Personally, I wasn't willing to take that much of a risk with my kid but I'm sure not going to say that he was insane. Maybe his kids would have reached the velocities they did regardless. Maybe not. The one thing we know is that they did reach those velocities and millions of other kids didn't.

quote:

The one thing we know is that they did reach those velocities and millions of other kids didn't.

CADad,
We(you and I) also know that more and more pitchers ages 14-18 are sitting in doctor's offices and surgery suites throughout the US. We know there are ongoing studies concerning what orthopedists and sports medicine professionals view as the dramatic or epidemic increase in arm injuries/surgeries. One significant factor for pitchers suffering these types of injuries from ages 14-18 is the increased pursuit of velocity. It is not the only factor but it is a significant.
Quite clearly many pitchers ages 14-18 escape injury. We can point and highlight to them. They are playing in college/Milb.
We don't point or highlight to those who had their career ended along the way. Most of them and their parents are not posting on the HSBBW.
This is a risk assessment, in my view.
I know you know this.
But others reading this thread may well see polarized views with your posts supporting Sultan and GBM and others like TPM and myself in a far distant camp.
As I said before, I believe our sons are owed a duty of trust when it comes to their health and baseball health.
I choose to rely on the medical professionals who are studying the issues. Pursuit of velocity at younger ages is a major factor in arm injuries, especially on a cumulative wear and tear basis. If pursuit of velocity is combined with playing more than 8 months per year, the risk increases. If those are combined with pitch counts above 80, the risks increase dramatically. Add inadequate rest, lack of stretching and the like at the risks get off the chart.
With that said, there will be some at the highest risk who won't be a statistic. There will be some who are in the lower levels of risk who will.
The point of this thread is the importance of the pursuit of velocity at age 10 with the thread expanding the pursuit up to ages 14.
If it is not insane, it is dangerous and risky and probably even reckless, in my opinion.

As the OLD GEEZER on this site I look back and wonder why I enjoyed the game so much and I had no gun on me--I had tough coaches who improved my game and made me understand it--I had a dad who was a semipro catcher and one of the best students of the game that I ever met--we had no radar guns---we had no 60 yd times---we had no SPARQ tests---we just had a love for the game and we played from dawn to duck in one form of the game or another

Today the parents want 10 yr olds to equate to MLB players--It is the parents, not the kids, creating this---when I was 10 years of age I worried about making the team because there was no PC system---you made the LL majors or you played in the minors in LL regardless of your age---no worry about the kid being made to feel inferior to others---it never happened --you were either good enough to make the team or not

Why do we need all this nonsense/---Thru FACEBOOK I have been able to reconnect with players I playeed with in my youth and with players I coached in LL some 20 plus years ago---they were not hurt by the system

I would ask that the parents of today become real and let the kids play baseball and enjoy it

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
CADad,
We(you and I) also know that more and more pitchers ages 14-18 are sitting in doctor's offices and surgery suites throughout the US.

If dad's weren't trying to get their kid into MLB, they would not be getting these arms fixed. Years ago, these clinics weren't around and these arms weren't fixed. I know many guys my age (the ones that are not dead) that blew out their arm, then switched over to another position.

quote:

We know there are ongoing studies concerning what orthopedists and sports medicine professionals view as the dramatic or epidemic increase in arm injuries/surgeries. One significant factor for pitchers suffering these types of injuries from ages 14-18 is the increased pursuit of velocity.

I know you want to believe this, but please link the studies that suggest the "pursuit of velocity" causes injuries. Why would PG allow this? Why would LLWS allow this for 11 yo? The studies I read say "overuse" causes injuries. If we could just stick to facts, that would be great.

Let's be clear about my position. I don't think the simple act of gunning any kid is going to injure them. I guess some Dad could go nuts and make them throw every day until they are faster, faster, faster. This Dad doesn't need a radar gun to go nuts. Guns don't kill pitchers, Coaches/Dads do.

There are some on this board who honestly think that waiting until a pitcher is 15-16 to start pitching and working on velocity is fine. There are others like myself that believe that there is nothing wrong of starting that process at a younger age. LL organizations have been aware of the increase in arm injuries over the years and have adopted strict pitch count rules in their respective organizations to help curb this growing trend.

Many organizations like ASMI have done extensive research into the problem and have come up with some interesting statistics. From what i have been able to gather, it is not a problem of "when" a pitcher starts throwing, or with "what velocity" they are throwing, it is "how much" and "too often" that they are finding to be the major factor. Why? because they are fnding that almost every case of adolescent injury occurs due to an increase in pitching amount at a high velocity coupled with a pitcher feeling fatigued or having constant arm pain and pitching through it.

Now of course the stats also show that some escape injury when they have pitched the same velocity or higher and just as frequently. The real culprit I believe is thus- "too much" coupled with some degree of pain or fatigue.

When we were at the baseball camp last winter they talked about this and how important it is for a pitcher to remain active and workout often to obtain the proper strength so that he wouldn't get trapped in a season pitching under pain or fatigue.

As I have always stated, I never allow my son to pitch "too much" or pitch while he was "fatigued". I have seen all too often the marathon legion seasons where starting pitchers pitch 4-5 times in the week trying to gain wins for the team. Often times these games run high in pitch counts and it is not checked- no one is keeping track.

So to defend what i am doing. I believe in bullpen work frequently in short reps because I honestly believe that this builds the strength and stamina for a pitcher needed so that he doesn't fatigue easlily setting himself up for premature failure or injury.

People think I am insane or overboard but I keep asking myself this- Yes, we have escaped injury up to this point and son continues to pitch without pain and fatigue where others who I see do not. So who is more at risk? Is my son at an elevated risk because he pitches less (pitch count) but more often (more frequently). If the name of the game is to keep pitchers from overpitching causing fatigue and injury, then I would say that my son is under-pitching if anything at all!

What's worse-

30 pitches every other day without any fatigue, or twice a week pitching whole games where pitch counts often soar over a 100? Who do you think is going to suffer from premature failure and fatigue?

infielddad,
Actually I'm responding to the part about gunning kids at an early age being some sort of crime. I don't think that guns add much if any risk. Sure throwing at max velocity for a lot of pitches is riskier than throwing at regular velocity for the same number of pitches. However, IMO, that is only because fatigue sets in earlier and therefore the overuse starts earlier. If one strictly limits the number of pitches thrown at full velocity and ensures that the pitcher is fully warm but not fatigued before throwing at full velocity for a few pitches then I don't see a problem.

The primary risk is overuse at all age levels and I think that pitchers throwing in too many leagues and throwing bullpens too often is the main risk factor.

A lot of people think that the big risk is with 10yo and I don't happen to think that having a properly warmed up 10yo try to throw a few pitches hard and giving them feedback as to how it is working is much of a risk at all. Letting a 10yo throw way too many pitches in pursuit of some 10u tournament victory on the other hand is a serious risk.

I also believe that the biggest risk comes after the growth spurt begins and the tendons and ligaments are stressed because they aren't growing as fast as the bones and then after that when kids get into HS and college and are told that they should sacrifice their arms for the program. That goes with along with your 14-18yo surgery group.

The velocity risk really doesn't usually start happening until kids get into the mid 80s and if it happens at lower velocities then the kids are either not genetically suited to pitching or have been seriously overused. Once again that goes with the 14-18yo group and leaves out the 10yo's. Of course if you've got a 10yo who throws significantly harder than his peers without being significantly more mature there's added risk at far less than mid 80s velocities.

So am I saying it is safer to have 10yo work on their velocity? Probably. Am I saying that it is worth the risk? Probably not. It is entirely the parents responsibility to make sure the 10yo are safe and as they get older it becomes a shared responsibility with the player, the parents and the coaches. Am I saying it is safe to gun a 10yo on occasion as long as it isn't done on a regular basis. Absolutely.

What am I recommending for 10yo? I recommend a throwing program focused on learning the basic mechanics and how to repeat their delivery. I recommend very limited innings on the mound. I recommend getting the kids to try throwing a few hard pitches while maintaining their mechanics at the end of a pitching lesson as long as they aren't fatigued and I recommend having a gun there so they can get some feedback. Many times throwing harder doesn't result in throwing faster. Given that I've seen college recruiters guess velocities off by 5 or 6 mph I don't believe that you can always tell how fast they are throwing without a gun. I also recommend making sure that the overall mix of games, bullpens, lessons, etc. is not going to result in overuse.

How about weighted balls for 10yo? I don't see any problem with having them do the drill where they put their elbow in the glove and try to flip the 6oz ball with their wrist only. Other than that I think there may be a risk in having that young of a kid actually throw a weighted ball and I don't think it is worth the risk. JMO.

GBM,
I see nothing wrong with "short" pens every other day a total of 3 times a week. If it becomes every other day without that 2 days or more of rest on occasion then there's some added risk of cumulative tendon or ligament damage and it isn't going to show up right away.

quote:

Am I saying it is safe to gun a 10yo on occasion as long as it isn't done on a regular basis. Absolutely.

CADad,
My son is long gone from this issue. If other parents feel "they" should be able to choose how much "risk" they want for their 10 year old "son" in order to pursue MLB as Sultan posts, nothing I say is going to make a difference.
Since their son is not sitting in Kerlan-Jobe learning of the UCL or labrum tear, they have no idea of the downside risk other than some kids get there, but not "mine."
I believe Sultan's response is clear evidence of this type of approach.
You and I both know that what they do/throw at 10, 11, 12, 13, or 14 does not normally show up immediately. While some, such as your son, have acute issues, many of these are not acute.
It is not the gun on them at any individual point in time that is the focal issue.
It is the cumulative effects during those ages, combined with velocity, combined with fatigue, combined with pitch counts that are all inclusive of the definition of "overuse." To the extent that serial "gunning" over those years is part of any of the factors that are incorporated into "overuse" then gunning can be an issue. Clearly, Dr Andrews thinks it is.
You and I both know that this issue is all the risk factors taken together from ages 10 to 15/16, that come into play as cumulative and chronic stress which impacts in HS. Taken together, the risks of serious arm injury go up as much as 3,600 percent by HS. Taken individually, each factor of "overuse" results in an increased risk of anywhere from 250% up to 500% for serious injury during HS, according to recent reports.
An adult saying they are feeling comfortable at age 14 does not make much sense when the real true risk of what happened before starts to become apparent in the next 4 or so years. It makes sense in terms of having avoided acute injury. It does not for cumulative overuse, of which velocity is an identified risk.
With regard to the gun and a 10 year old, my question is... why.
What in the heck is the importance of velocity at age 10 in the overall landscape of baseball? It is parents, using a parents tool to "drive" a youth sport.
There is not a single person in MLB, Milb, college or high school baseball who cares what velocity was shown on a gun at age 10.
It is a predictor of nothing. It adds nothing to how the game is played. To me, is an artificial parent device that gets 10 year olds to throw harder. It adds nothing to the experience, the fun or the game of baseball at that age in my view.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:

I see nothing wrong with "short" pens every other day a total of 3 times a week.

No offense guys but we are talking about 10YO's!!!

When he was 10 a pen was where we kept our chickens...

Excellent post infielddad!

CAdad,
Since you asked here goes.

My son has never sustained a major injury and never had to miss any game until he became a professional, ah wait, except once in college when he rolled his ankle. FWIW, he has had several MRI, the first complete one only when he signed, and there was not even a slight tear found.
The "injury" that everyone talks about but deosn't know the real story unless I have told them was cortacoid impingement, causing tendinitous in the area slightly above his armpit, not his shoulder. He was scoped one year by the team doctor, to clean up some fraying, nothing of significance found but he was not looking for what was apparently the cause because it is a rare occurance. The problem was genetic (the bone to large for the space given), and last fall had to undergo another arthoscopic surgery to shave the bone. Also, because no one really knew what was really going on before it was discovered, they thought he had a loose capsule so he had to do specific excercises (before he saw this doctor that discovered his issue) for months to tighten the capsule, now the new doctor told them that now they had to do the reverse, as it had become too tight and he could lose his range of motion. It had to be done very carefully under supervision as not to over stretch, lose the integrity of the capsule and it's supporting muscles and ligaments. Also prescribed was a much more intense workout and conditioning for the lower body, even though son never threw with his "arm" this workout and a change in mechanics by professionals has releived all stress from his shoulder and arm, he has never felt better in his life.

So there is a very good example of working with professionals but in reality you cannot see inside, and if they missed some stuff, how can a non professional get it right? This doesn't mean that one day he will take the mound and somthing will happen, but the whole point is that he escaped youth injury, and we all know they abound today.

SofS, just because there are operations to repair doesn't mean that they will continue playing. It is so difficult for a 23-24 to go through 2 scope surgeries, it has got to be harder for youth players to go through major surgeries. Looking back on how hard it was for us to know the frustration he felt, we also knew that he was at a point where he would be given consideration and chances to move forward, that doesn't happen to young players. It's a lot less harder to swallow it all from an adult's perspective rather than a young players. Besides, think of all the "fun" that should be there is not happening.

IMO, it's all just a guessing game, and you know as well as I that genetics plays a HUGE part in it. As you know, son has the desired frame for a pitcher, lanky, long arms and long legs, so of course his path would be much different than others, that's also a big point, you can't make recommendations on what's best for another without knowing anything about them.

Of course one has to teach and train a pitcher to throw his hardest, but I firmly believe that this is not appropriate for young pitchers, we are talking about the 10-14 year old level here, not HS, not college, not pro ball. Show me where it is recommended that 10-14 year olds should throw every other day from a mound.

As far as why the emphasis on developing velocity so young it IS because youth baseball has become a big business, just because there are certain groups that offer what they do at showcases and camps does not mean that is what is necessarily what is right. If you are charging parents lots of money, you better believe you better do something to show for it. Yes, there are many that will benefit from it, but there are many who won't.

As much as we disagree on many things, TR's got it right, it is the parents pursuit of MLB that creates all of this, the dreams of getting lots of money to sign to play pro ball. Reality is you got to get there first, and when he does with what he's done, GBM can tell us what the answer is.

People in the business are going to do what is in demand and makes money for them, they wouldn't do half the things they do if no one wanted to pay for it. This is not a dig on anyone, but this is the way I and many see it. Business is business.

To me it doesn't matter at this point, youth baseball has lost it's way in many ways, again this is not a dig on any one organization is particular.

So here it is, son began pitching very young at age 8, never did much in the way of bullpens, never played year round baseball, never had a paid pitching lesson in his life, no complete games, didn't lift any heavy weights until 15, never used weighted balls, tossed a lot, didn't use the CB until he was 14-15 in games, not allowed to participate in those set ups where you throw to measure velocity, and the first time the radar gun was placed on him, with our permission, was at 15. Never once were we even curious as to WHAT he threw, (neither was he), because it didn't matter. But I never suggested that anyone model their players path after him, because we all know that all children and their genetics are different.

Who is more at risk, we all know that overuse and fatigue is, that's not the issue here. I am not arguing that GBM doesn't bring up some good points, but there are some I do not believe are healthy. Throwing frequently from the mound is one of them. Going home after your cool down and throwing hard to a wall is not one of them (or have we changed our opinion on that)

What is short frequent reps in bull pens anyway plus games? That's still pitching, how many pitches in a week does that add up to?

As far as being able to "repair", there is nothing more heart breaking than a young pitcher having to go through an operation (and there are risks to that) and then having to rehab intensly to get back, lost time in having the fun that youth sports brings (that's what it's all abut folks).

SofS, the things I say are in repsonse to what is posted, for example the comment about breeding pitchers. That right there gives you a hint as to the parents way of thinking.

When son was a junior he hit 90 the fall of his junior year, we were told by those very qualified to leave him alone the next jump would be after a growth spurt. It did the following year going into college he hit 93. There was NOTHING done. However, I can just see some of you out there with their son every other day throwing bull pens to increase their velocity, with the radar gun, when there was no need to, it got there on it's own.

infielddad,
I think we're on the same page overall. The difference is that I think that occasional use of the gun in a controlled situation has little or no risk relative to the other factors you've mentioned.

Dr. Andrews blamed showcases for overuse as part of his blaming radar guns for arm injuries and he tied the two together. Many kids do throw for the gun at showcases, but my experience is that the kids who are throwing short stints throw harder than the kids who are throwing more innings and most of the showcases also limit the number of batters per inning so that things don't get out of hand.

It isn't the showcases that are the problem, it is showcases added onto an already demanding schedule that can be a problem. It isn't the radar gun that is a problem, it is throwing too hard, too often without proper recovery time that is a problem. It isn't throwing hard that is a problem, it is throwing hard without proper warmup, or when fatigued or not realizing that additional rest is needed after throwing harder than usual. OK, I'll admit that throwing hard enough can add to risk, but it also adds reward and the velocity difference between throwing all out and throwing at working velocity is seldom more than 3 or 4 mph and often less.

What value is there in using a radar gun on a 10yo?

1. Curiosity.
2. The kids enjoy it. (If you don't think the kids enjoy it then you should have seen the lines at the MLB fanfest. Now that is dangerous if a kid has an arm and heads into one of those without warming up. Even worse they didn't know how to setup the guns so they didn't get readings half the time.)
3. Feedback for the pitching instructor.

If I thought there was any significant risk involved then those wouldn't be reasons enough to use a gun. I don't believe there's any significant risk involved and Dr. Andrews was speaking off the cuff and making big time extrapolations when he blamed showcases and radar guns for arm injuries. Is it surprising that he sees a lot of kids who have showcased? Does that mean the showcases and radar guns at showcases are causing the injuries? It is a lot more likely that kids who showcase are more likely to throw hard enough to injure their UCLs or are the same kids who would be overused showcases or no showcases, radar guns or no radar guns. One has to be very careful about drawing conclusions from a set of data. Kids who are more active tend to weigh less than kids who aren't. Doctors and just about everyone else have long believed that meant that if they could get kids to be more active then kids would weigh less. The conventional wisdom was wrong. Kids who add activity eat more and maintain their natural weight. It turns out that kids who ate less were more active because they weighed less and not the other way around. When you consider that a single cookie can contain as many calories as one would burn off running a mile that seems obvious but it was only recently that a scientific study proved it.

BTW, I wouldn't really call my son's injury acute. He was moved to 3rd during practice so that the coach could take grounders at short while they were practicing. He did that for a couple weeks then the day before their first game they had a couple hours of fielding practice.

He played the first game with a sore arm and played through the pain only telling us the next day when he could barely move his arm.

Stress reactions can be acute but generally they happen after a couple weeks or more of overuse.

BOF,
Not 10yo for the 3 pens a week. That's too much. If nothing else it would take the fun out it for them.

TPM,
Good post, thanks for the info. Pens tend to be somewhat less stressful than pitching and flatgrounds tend to be less stressful than pens. Long toss can go anywhere from not being very stressful at all to being as much or more stress than pitching depending on the approach. One has to integrate all of them together and limit the pens depending on how much pitching they are doing. For example my son is a bit frustrated right now because they have him pitching 4 innings once a week and two innings once a week and we haven't been able to safely fit in a pen for him for a couple weeks now. Pens are important for maintaining the mechanics and the release point especially for the younger (in terms of total innings pitched) pitchers and the ones who have more complex deliveries.

My preference for the older kids for development is 1 pitching outing of 2 or 3 innings a week, 1 good pen and 1 flatground with just general throwing to keep the arm loose 2 or 3 days a week. It is very difficult to keep that schedule for any extended period of time.

For a 10yo I can't see them enjoying anything more than pitching once a week and perhaps a lesson every few weeks. It depends on the kid. Most likely they are going to be playing other positions and doing plenty of throwing. The 10yo have to have fun and develop a love for the game or they won't persevere through the hard times that almost invariably come later on in the game.

If I remember right mine was a catcher at 10yo and kind of fell into pitching due to lack of more than one pitcher who could throw strikes not that he could throw that many strikes. We didn't let him pitch much at 11yo and didn't let him throw curves. The coaches weren't happy with us.

At 12yo he pitched a fair amount but still didn't throw a curve despite the lure of LL all-stars. The kids from our district who were the national champs that year had several curve ballers.

At 13yo he played in an incredibly competitive PONY program and we had a good 14yo pitcher who got the most innings and enough pitchers that we could limit his innings.

Then at 14yo he went into the HS program and the nightmare began. While he was in the HS program the kids in the program had 6 or 7 serious back injuries. There were 5 UCL injuries but only a couple led to surgery and the other 3 resulted in leaving baseball, although one of them had a fairly good HS "career" pitching through the pain. CASon was one of the lucky ones in many ways. If anyone wonders why I worry more about the HS age kids that's why. One kid who purported to be taking Creatine with plenty of encouragement from the coaches got big quick but injuries kept him off the field a lot until his senior season. He did have a very good senior season. That kid was a football player and the kids told me that most of the football players were taking Mdrol. Despite encouragement from one of the coaches I don't think any of the other baseball players other than perhaps one of the other football players took it.

Other than the brief and carefully controlled experiment with the weighted balls the only thing he did for velocity was Jaeger's long toss program and the few (5 or 6) hard pitches at the end of pitching lessons. He loved going to the Jaeger camps and hanging out with the "older" players.

Then with the Cardinals they simply had him throw hard in scrimmages and in pens during their program along with a lot of conditioning. He picked up about 1.5 mph over 6 weeks doing that. A big part of that gain was probably just getting better extension and being confident that he could throw strikes when throwing harder.

Probably the only time he had a real jump in velocity other than touching up his mechanics to get him back to a previous velocity was while he was rehabbing from the stress reaction and El Attrache sent him to a PT because he had GIRD. The PT was very baseball savvy and did a great job of getting his range of motion back and he went from about 71 to 76 mph almost immediately.

GBM, I am going to say this and then let you go do your thing with your son. No matter what any of us say you're going to do what you want with your son regardless of rhyme or reason. Anything that any of us have said has only been brought up for the sole safety of turnin2 son's arm and overall health along with yours.

I have never been one that had a problem agreeing to disagree about things. The more you talked the more I read some things that you do that I was glad to read. I truly hope that you are in fact doing them instead of appeasing us and just saying it...for your son's sake.

If you were being honest with yourself and went back and re-read your posts here, I think you'd agree that you just might be a little over the top on velocity and pushing your son to find it. What concerns me the most is when your son does begin experiencing some arm/elbow/shoulder soreness and pain and chooses to not tell you because he knows how important velocity is to Dad. Yes, young pitchers do and have held back mentioning the pain for many, many reasons.

One thing that has not been brought up that I was surprised hadnt been was - burnout. There may very well come a time when your son's passion, love, and intensity will not match yours thus his desire to find something else to do. If you are working him right now as much as you say you do with these BP's, camps, games, etc. then I'm afraid that you may be headed there sooner than you wish. Just be aware that this may be happening now without you knowing it.

My best friend played college ball and he coached our son's 11-12yr old LL team. His son was a very, very talented catcher. It was scary how good he was. My friend was constantly working with him not only at practice but at home. When it was time to create and begin a playing with a talented 14yr old group of boys my friends son came into the room where us Fathers were planning and plainly told his dad that he wasn't playing any more baseball and then went outside to shoot hoops. You could've heard a pin drop. He never saw it coming. Needless to say, the team never saw the light of day.

Many fellow posters on here have given you tremendously sound advise due to their many years of having "been there and done that". It is my suggestion to you that you swallow some of your pride and take heart what they've said.

Good luck to your son..afterall..he is the one that counts in all of this.

YGD

CADad,
I think that everyone agrees that measuring a young pitcher's velo is not going to hurt them. But rather the series of events that may follow.

When son was younger the only competition in youth baseball was between teams, now it is player against player and the "how does my player measure up" mode of thinking. Perfect example, though no harm intended, was the question asked that began this topic.

Parents panic when they think that their son may be developmentally behind in sports (yes we have had this discussion) that includes their velocity, in fact they panic more these days about that than if they are behind in the classroom (JMO). There is a HUGE need these days for their player to be better than anyone else's player and brag about it. More of everything seems to be the way to go. That's how it is today in youth sports. I think the use of the radar gun early causes this. Parent points out to player that so and so is pitching harder when they first learn of the velo or one player throws hard in showcases, and others try to throw harder to be better or gain attention etc, etc. Then before you know it a parent puts together a program to increase their velocity, filming, charting, lifting weights, more mound work, farther long toss than the player can handle.

That's why IMO, radar guns are dangerous.

BTW, I beleive that a toss program as well as a conditioning, strengthening program should be tailored for the individual, that's why advice on some things on a message board is not always appropriate (as in the case as the advice GBM has given out what he thinks is a good plan may not be good for others).

And of course the workload has lots to do with it. If GBM really knew what they did in proball, he would find out that a pitcher's bull pen depends on how much time he put in his last outing. If it's short, it's a longer pen, if it was long, it might be a light shorter pen. Some relievers go tot he mound, others on flat ground, there are no rules and everything is flexible depending on the individual.

But again, you are talking about what grown men do not children.

BTW, my son's friend blew out his pitching arm at 15 when younger he pitched at one of those fanfest set ups, no proper warmup, they don't tell you that before you throw the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
GBM, I am going to say this and then let you go do your thing with your son. No matter what any of us say you're going to do what you want with your son regardless of rhyme or reason. Anything that any of us have said has only been brought up for the sole safety of turnin2 son's arm and overall health along with yours.

I have never been one that had a problem agreeing to disagree about things. The more you talked the more I read some things that you do that I was glad to read. I truly hope that you are in fact doing them instead of appeasing us and just saying it...for your son's sake.

If you were being honest with yourself and went back and re-read your posts here, I think you'd agree that you just might be a little over the top on velocity and pushing your son to find it. What concerns me the most is when your son does begin experiencing some arm/elbow/shoulder soreness and pain and chooses to not tell you because he knows how important velocity is to Dad. Yes, young pitchers do and have held back mentioning the pain for many, many reasons.

One thing that has not been brought up that I was surprised hadnt been was - burnout. There may very well come a time when your son's passion, love, and intensity will not match yours thus his desire to find something else to do. If you are working him right now as much as you say you do with these BP's, camps, games, etc. then I'm afraid that you may be headed there sooner than you wish. Just be aware that this may be happening now without you knowing it.

My best friend played college ball and he coached our son's 11-12yr old LL team. His son was a very, very talented catcher. It was scary how good he was. My friend was constantly working with him not only at practice but at home. When it was time to create and begin a playing with a talented 14yr old group of boys my friends son came into the room where us Fathers were planning and plainly told his dad that he wasn't playing any more baseball and then went outside to shoot hoops. You could've heard a pin drop. He never saw it coming. Needless to say, the team never saw the light of day.

Many fellow posters on here have given you tremendously sound advise due to their many years of having "been there and done that". It is my suggestion to you that you swallow some of your pride and take heart what they've said.

Good luck to your son..afterall..he is the one that counts in all of this.

YGD

YGD,

I appreciate all of the info I get on this forum- it is the best around for getting advice. I respect all of those who post and give their advice here. It is probably hard to convey all of the things we do in the proper light. Often times it may seem that I have turned son into a robot and I am just feeding input into him expecting results.

I have a good relationship with my son. We often talk about baseball, but we also sit and talk about lots of other things. we also do lots of other things. When baseball season is over he hangs up the cleats and we gear up for basketball (watching it mostly). Because we do speak a lot to each other, and I demand nothing from him besides the same respecty I give him, he freely speaks of how he feels about baseball- everything to do with it including how his arm is feeling. He knows that he doesn't have to please Dad to get noticed.

I wish other kids had the relationship that I have with my son. I know him very well and am the main protector of his athletic gifts. I am never afraid to tell a coach that he won't be pitching today because he is tired. Son also realizes the importance of protecting his arm. He realizes that with a lot of hard work and a little luck he has a good shot at playing good in HS and getting an opportunity to play beyond that. First and foremost, that is his dream. My dream is just to see him succeed at those things he works hard at.

Earlier this year he won an essay contest at his school and I couldn't be more proud! Son realizes that He can succeed in anything he wants to and those close to him will be there to support his endeavors, whatever they may be.

My defense on this subject is done with respect to others. I am not saying what they did with their kid is bad, I am just saying that what I do with my kid works for my kid and others can follow if they want.

I am not overly obsessed with velocity, If I was I would own a gun which I could easily pick up. The amount of throwing we do (its not really that much) is for the conditioning of his arm. We also use the bullpens to work on tweaking mechancis and messing around with different grips on different pitches. Sometimes we set up a coke can and he tries to knock it over throwing different pitches. He has fun doing it, and I am just along for the ride mostly. It is a relaxed environment where he chooses when and how much to throw generally. Sometimes we go out to throw a session and we will throw to get warmed up and after 10 minutes or so he will say he is not up to it but that he wants to take some infield instead or do some batting practice instead. Its not as if we stick to this perfectly set schedule of pitching exactly every other day with an exact pitch count. For the most part we do throw about every other day either at practice or at home and it isn't always from a mound or from exactly 60 feet.

Many also don't realize that my son has always been a strong solid kid who is able to do things athletically on a whole different level than most others who play the sport. He has a very heavy bone density (thanks to his Mothers genetics) and as such he also has a wide solid frame. At 5'10" and 180 pounds he is a pretty solid 14 year old. I don't worry as much with my son as I do other kids on the teams he has played on because he has a better build genetically than most others. Some kids I am afraid their arm is going to go flying off if they throw another pitch- scares the **** out of me. I tell them they need to really work on getting stronger before they throw like that so much, but with son it has never been like that- he has always been stocky and strong for his age.

I have found that other people have some pretty good pride also and are too quick to judge others without really finding out the whole situation or story. There are many things I have swallowed my pride on realizing that others have come before me and have experienced everything that still is yet facing me. I come here mostly to read what others have posted and perhaps offer my own advice. Others are free to take it or leave it. i am not a paid instructor nor did I ever pitch a day in my life. But I have learned a lot from coming here, posting here.

Thanks for your kindness.

TPM,
What we say and what we write isn't always what people hear. For example, infielddad said that I was backing up Sultan and GBM and going against you and him. I was only doing so relative to the casual use of radar guns and as far as I can tell we are in violent agreement as to what the kids at various levels of the game should be doing relative to throwing.

It is very easy to misinterpret what people write and what their intentions are. We tend to read between the lines and come up with things that aren't really there. When I read the body of what you have written this is what I hear:

-My son was really, really good from day 1 and he didn't need to do anything extra. Not only was he good but he happened to have an ideal birthdate. We didn't plan it that way it just happened.

The rest of you shouldn't do anything extra with your son because we didn't and if his birthdate wasn't ideal well that's just too bad and if he doesn't go anywhere in baseball well that's just too bad because he doesn't have the talent that my son has.-

Was that what you meant to say? I doubt it very, very much. I'm sure you sincerely mean what you have actually written and nothing more. Unfortunately that isn't always how it comes across to people.

Everything is relative to one's perspective. I've always over reacted to one of TR's favorite sayings "They aren't ready for showcases if they haven't made varsity." Generally speaking he's probably right. However in our area things can be a bit different. When my son was a junior one pitching staff in his league had two 2nd round draft choices, a D1 scholly pitcher, a 25th round choice who got around $250,000 to sign and I believe a 20th round choice who pitched a total of 11 innings that season. That team came in third in the league. I think there may have been kids playing JV who were ready to showcase. I know for a fact that there were 3 or 4 mid to upper 80s kids playing JV in the league that season.

So TR says something that makes perfect sense and my reaction is:

How can you say that! What an insult to the kids in our area.

Ah, the joys of communication via the internet.

My son is 14 1/2, never been gunned, so I don't know what his velocity is. Maybe low to mid 60s - the timing of his delivery is a little off, so he seems to be working against himself.

Biologically/developmentally he is a year or more behind his age group, so most of his peers are throwing harder. Right now we are working on mechanics, pitch location, control, balance, flexibility and core conditioning. He is finally starting to grow, so I imagine his velocity will increase - just doing what we can to ensure he has a good foundation.

Last night we finished a summer season in a Colt/Palomino league. Most of the other teams were comprised of kids 16-18, while ours were mostly 15 with a couple of 14s. The result? He was pretty successful when he kept his pitches low, and was hit hard when he left them up. Better than that, though, was that he walked very few and had no wild pitches or passed balls. He has a (sort of) fast ball, a 2-seam with some sink, a change, and a pretty decent curve that he just started throwing in the spring - was able to keep the hitters guessing. His pitches-per-inning were generally low. OTOH, pitchers that had one pitch - a fast ball even with good velocity - usually got pounded.

I imagine that he will develop enough velocity to pitch in high school (as long as he maintains his control) but beyond that I have no idea, nor does anyone else. One advantage re his current lack of velocity - he has not been overworked the past two years. Usually comes in to get the team out of a jam and then stays another inning or two, or is brought in to pitch the last inning. IOW, he is learning to deal with pressure situations and avoid mistakes.

As for a kid being less likely to be injured because they have a certain body type, I'm not sure I agree with that. There is a lot going on in the elbow and shoulder when a pitch is delivered, especially in joints that are not fully matured. Always cringe a little whenever I see a kid 16 or younger throwing really hard.

In short, I would rather have a 10yo (or older) kid who understands pitching rather than one that just throws hard.

Velocity at age 10, I think we can all agree that it is not very important.

I always get a kick out of the radar gun thing. Radar guns do not cause arm injuries.

Also, I don't understand how you keep a kid of any age from throwing a ball as hard as he can. Is it simply staying away from a radar gun?

I'd like to ask a few questions of all those old timers who played, let alone pitched.

When you were young, did anyone protect you from arm injury?

Did you ever throw things as hard as you possibly could?

Did you throw for extended periods of time?

Did anyone count the number of throws you made?

Did you make sure you had sufficient recovery time before throwing hard again?

Did you ever play burn out for long periods of time?

If so, did you make sure you didn't throw the ball too hard?

Did anyone have a radar gun on you?

And if you grew up before 1974 had you ever heard of TJ Surgery?

In my younger days, I would throw as hard as I could nearly every day, completely unsupervised for the most part. In the winter, we would have snow ball fights. I'd take the young cold arm and with no warm ups, throw snowballs as hard as I possibly could because you couldn't hit the other guys throwing it softly. Yes I know, that was probably stupid!

Also, not to make light of anyone's opinion, but TJ Surgery these days has a success rate of around 90%. The % of those able to get college scholarships or sign a pro contract is what? TJ surgery is serious, but it's far from the end of the world. For a few, it's even become an advantage. Please don't hope for that!

Personally I think listening to what everyone thinks is a good thing. After all, we can never know for sure who it is that might have it right.

I've said it before and will say it forever, the medical profession will always try to eliminate as much risk as possible. Yet, there's always some risk (pushing the limits) involved when striving to reach your potential.

Probably doesn't have much to do with 10 year olds pitching velocity, but playing it safe is not always the answer. Besides, for parents to play it completely safe they would have to be with their son at all times.

Finally, how do you tell a 10 year old kid who has a good arm and throwing happens to be something he is real good at... To not throw with maximum velocity? How would a radar gun change that? Heck, maybe the gun can actually help find his max velocity, so you can warn him when he throws that hard too often.

Please don't take anything I say too seriously. Truth is, after all this time, I have more questions than answers when it comes to most things.

CADad,
You can read into whatever I wrote, that's your perogative, I was trying to explain why I thought radar guns weren't good for younger players.

Yes, I have seen and met many parents more concerned over their son's velocity than the poor grades they get in school, take that for what you want.

I also did state several times that every player is different, that is why suggestions on what is working for a 14 year old is not always appropriate.

johnu, IMO, has got it right as to what young pitcher year old should be working on.

BTW, a webster here told me that Fick told his son not to worry about the velocity, there are other things young players need to work on. I think that's coming from a guy who didn't throw as hard as others, and still might not, but got his delivery and stuff down pat.

I stand by what I beleive in as well, less of everything is better for every type of pitcher.

Pitchers that throw hard have just as much to worry about as those that don't, so don'think that parents of these type of players have it easy either.