Very important post

TPM

Truly sorry to hear of the situation and I wish him the best--he is certainly in good hands at Clemson

Great post-- people take heed of what this woman tells you here-- there is nobody on this or any site that can give answers to arm problems or any baseball "pain" problems other than to see a good sports doc

The operative phrase here is:
"a good sport doc".

Hope it's not serious. I would seek a MRI, and then three experts to read them.

Then an excellent arm rehab specialist.

I know of several, if interested.

Regards and prayers

Nice going TPM.

And best of luck to David. He did the right thing. But you know that. Will be thinking about him.

Kevin

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TPM...

Thoughts...

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TPM,

A shock to hear this, but obviously David did the right thing. Hopefully it will turn out to be something minor and with a short rest, he will be good as new. Thank you for the warning to other pitchers and their parents, also.

TPM.....very good message.......hope he gets back soon......but well.....

Arms are funny and unpredictable. I hope for the best for your son, TPM.

It makes me wonder though -- good mechanics, bad mechanics, overuse, underuse. I can't get it out of my head that evey arm has a finite number of pitches in it -- different perhaps for every arm, but finite nonetheless.

It's part of what makes pitching such a dicey proposition and why I wonder why any kid actually would choose pitching over a position (and that is only partly TIC).

A great use of the board to help spread exactly the right message; but, how I wish it hadn't been prompted in the way that it was!

Here's wishing David a speedy and complete recovery.

Great post TPM. We will be praying for DK and wishing him a speedy recovery. And Prepster's son will be taking the mound I believe for UNC in the teams opener against Seton Hall at UNC. Good luck to Robert and all the heels on Friday.

I'd like to also concur with TPM's comments. You have to get treatment from the very best professionals you can get access to.

My son, a high school senior, has never had any arm problems; that is until January 14th. That night, at a tournament in Southern CA he was throwing down to second between innings and felt a "pop" in his elbow followed by a burning pain sensation. His elbow immediately hurt enough that he couldn't throw after that.

When we got home, I made an appointment with our family practice doctor, and the diagnosis was tendinitis of the medial epicondyl. We followed that up with physical therapy 3 days per week, and after 3 weeks it hadn't improved. Son still couldn't throw a ball or swing a bat at all, so we went back to our family practioner, and he still thought it was tendinitis; but he did refer us out to their medical group's orthopedist at my insistence. We ended up seeing an orthopedic surgeon, but not the one we were originally referred to.

By chance, I ran into a scout friend while attending the Long Beach State vs. Cal game and as soon as he heard my son was having elbow problems, he said we needed to see one specific orthopedist that happens to be the team orthopedic surgeon for a national league club. This was on a Friday, and the doctor saw my son on Tuesday. The scout was kind enough to contact the doctor on our behalf and make the appointment for us. Anyway, the doctor's preliminary diagnosis is that my son has probably torn the UCL ligament and will likely need Tommy John surgery. He told us that he needs to have an MRI and once we have those results he'll make a final diagnosis and recommend whether TJ surgery is necessary, or if some other course of treatment will take care of the problem. What this orthopedist couldn't understand (and the reason I've written such a long post) was how our family practitioner couldn't figure out that his problem was likely more serious than just tendinitis. The write up that the physical therapist sent down with us indicated a possible torn UCL in her opinion, but the primary care physician didn't think this was the case at all.

We had to return to our primary care group for a referral so that insurance would pay for the MRI, and the doc still didn't want to agree that it might be more serious than tendinitis. I had to get a little insistant with him that this orthopedist knows more about baseball injuries than he does, and if he wasn't going to write the referral then I was going to go over his head. Thankfully, this doc isn't our regular doctor, but another member of his group that we'd never seen before. In the end, we got the referral and an MRI will be done some time next week. After that, we'll be headed back down to see the orthopedist for final diagnosis and plan of treatment. One thing that was obvious was the difference in the way our family practice doc manipulated my son's arm, and the way the baseball orthopedist did it. The orthopedist bent, twisted and palpitated my son's arm in ways the other doc never came close to, and what didn't hurt with the first doc was obviously very painful to my son when sitting with the baseball doc.

Sorry for the long post, but my point in support of TPM is that sometimes you have to find the very best professionals you can in order to receive a proper diagnosis for a baseball related injury. Being seen by someone not familiar with the stresses that baseball can put on an arm can sometimes lead to not finding the actual problem or prescribing a improper course of treatment.

06CD - So sorry to hear about your son... I'll be thinking about you and hoping that all turns out well for him. Tough for you, I am sure. Please keep us posted.

Actually, URKMB, it worked out well at the Cal game. Even though I didn't get to meet you, I did accidentally make this connection for an outstanding surgeon, so it was very good that we went to the Golden Bears game.

I'll look forward to meeting you next time we're at Berzerkley.

TPM,
Hopefully this is just an early season glitch and everything turns out OK. We hope he best for Dave and thanks for the words of wisdom...Like you say---The best medical advise we can give is "see a doctor".

Sorry to hear about both boys. Best of luck to them in their medical care.

Barb,
Hoping this is a benign problem that will only require the needed rest and ice treatment...
I would like to take this opportunity to make one point....TPM has offered great advice but there are times when we, as parents, need to take control of a situation as 06catcherdad has pointed out...All our sons are committed to the game...they do not wish to be sidelined by an injury therefore, complaining is not in their makeup...they have a propesity to try to work through an injury and not verbalize if they are hurt...if they say they are hurting....listen...take them to your primary care but here is the glich....you need to be your childs advocate in obtaining the best possible care which may be a referral to an Orthopod....fight, kick, scream and demand that a referral be issued....some primary cares think they know more than they actually do...they are broad spectrum they do not specialize in the treatment of sports related injuries...we all know our own children so if your child does not respond to the treatment initially offered get that referral

TPM ... this sounds like one of those cases of "like mother, like son" ...

Dave is obviously a very smart young man. I know you are proud of him in MANY ways. We'll keep him in our prayers and I hope he's fine whe we come calling in late March. I really want to see him on the mound.

TPM-Great post..It is an awful feeling when they tell you they hurt. I wish a full and speedy recovery for all. Once again you used your experience to help countless others.

TPM and 06 ~

Two great accounts of getting the right thing done for your child, and the importance of finding the right doctors. We all want the best for your boys...lots of prayers coming their way.

Barb...

Here's wishing only the best to Dave for a speedy, yet thorough, recovery.

TPM and 06catcherdad-very sorry to hear about your sons' situations. Hope the situations
are minor but if surgery is needed let's hope for a full recovery. Got to be tough for
you both knowing how much you were looking forward to this season. Hang in there!

Catchermom03 you make a very good point. Our kids makeup is NOT to complain-it's not macho-but to try to fight through the pain as TPM's son did for 11 pitches. Hoping the arm would loosen up and feel right. They've worked all fall and all Jan and Feb and can
now see the light at the end of the tunnel and finally the season is here-don't want to let the coach down or the team or the family.

I believe we, as coaches and parents, have caused this attitude. What's the first thing
we hear from the dugout or the stands after a kid has been hit by pitched ball? DON'T RUB
IT!!! In football after getting creamed on a tackle? COME ON-SUCK IT UP!!! or WORK THROUGH THE PAIN!! BE A MAN!!!

Until we change this whole macho outlook on sports there are going to be young guys who
try to fight through the pain so they won't come off as "less than a man".

Hope this doesn't hijack this thread because I think it's very important to make the
coaches aware at the first sign of something that doesn't feel right. And remember that
ONLY the player knows what feels "normal" for him.

Good luck to both young guys for a speedy recovery!

Great Post TPM.

What I liked was that your son was proactive, knew his body and wasn't afraid to take himself out.

My son is still in the HS ranks and for years I have seen players push themselves on the youth sports level through HS level as they try to "work through the pain" either because they don't realize that what they are feeling could end up being something major and/or career ending or they because they are too afraid to speak up to either their coach or parent-very sad.

At a very young age parents of pitchers need to educate/not scare their players about listening to their bodies and watching for clues i.e. changes in velocity/mechanics (sounds like TPM did an excellent job on that). As players age then it should be the players responsibility to continue educating themselves on how to take care of their bodies/arms as well as empowering themselves to take control, if need be, when pain is involved.

And like all the posters have mentioned, when in pain see a specialist, don't rely on a friend's diagnosis or a GP, if it has to do with your elbow/shoulder go see an ortho. that specializes in athletic issues preferrable one that has an interest/experience with baseball players.

Two years ago, it was this site that suggested that to me for my son, luckily I even found our orthopedist's name through this site and my son had minor surgery on his elbow to remove some cartlidge that was trapped in the elbow causing the pain and the end result is he is pain free and back to pitching, well almost back he broke his finger 3 days ago during fungo............and we went straight to an ortho. since it was on his throwing hand....

TPM I hope your son's situation is minor and he is back to his normal/successful self soon.... keep us posted.

06catcherdad: I hope your MRI comes back negative on a tear and all is well for your son as well......

TPM

Great post. Hope everything works out and rest and therapy do the trick.

TPM and 06:

Thanks so much for sharing...imagine how much you have already helped others...what a great site this is.

With that said, both of your families will be in our prayers. We know how difficult it is to be in your position. Injuries happen to most good athletes, hopefully they are not sidelined for very long. Thank you for the heads up. It is critical to follow your own judgement in seeking good medical advice--and two or three opinions, if necessary. You know your sons best.

Certainly it is unfortunate when anyone gets hurt, but it happens. What is tremendously important is that the injury is recognized and taken care of professionally.

We're praying for a quick and complete recovery for both of your sons, and in fact, everyone who may be currently injured. It's sure not a fun way to go any portion of a season, let alone the entire season.

Michael and Annette

Hopefully he gets better soon and back on the bump where he belongs.

Barb,

So sorry to hear the news. Praying for a speedy and full recovery. Like others have stated. David is a smart young man. I'm rooting for him!

06catcherdad makes an important point--it's not just pitchers who have arm concerns...

Sorry to hear about your son. I know he's disappointed. Hopefully time and a little therapy will quickly take care of the problem and he'll be back on the mound, stronger than ever. You're both in our prayers.

TPM - Hopefully with rest and the Doctor's care everything will be just fine. We'll be pulling for him.

06catchersDad - Very sorry to hear that. There is good news and hope out there however with modern medical technology.

Very sorry to hear about your son.

For what's it's worth, and I'm sure I'll be ridiculed for saying this, but the below photo may suggest what the root cause of the problem is...

- DK Photo

It's hard to say for sure, but in this photo it looks like he is starting to turn his shoulders before his arm is up and in the high cocked position. This is a pattern I have seen in many pitchers (e.g. Chris Carpenter and Robb Nen) who ultimately needed labrum surgery. I believe the problem is that it causes the humerus to externally rotate especially hard, which puts extra stress on the labrum (the structure that forms the socket of the shoulder joint).

I wouldn't be satisfied if they just tried to rest it. Instead, you might want to consider having him go to an MD and have them take an MRI of this part of his shoulder.

quote:

It's hard to say for sure, but in this photo it looks like he is starting to turn his shoulders before his arm is up and in the high cocked position.

Chris, are you saying he is "dragging" his arm? That definately can cause shoulder problems and is easily fixed with one simple drill.

Dr Chris,
In case you didn't notice, I did not come here seeking help as to the "cause" of his problem or for suggestions. I came here to inform parents how important it is for sons to know when things don't feel right to put the ball down, seek medical advice asap and not listen to those giving advice on the internet from a PICTURE taken a year ago.
I did state that he went immediately to the doctor (ortho) and the course of action for the next week.
I think you are the only one who didn't GET IT.

TPM

great answer

Dr Chris does not get it !!! EVER !!!

I hope all of your boys hear good things from the Dr. All are in my prayers. Keep us posted TPM, Dad and OldBatNever.

TPM:

I am so very, very sorry to hear about your son. Your courage in sharing this with others is inspiring. Look at what an informative thread you started with great comments from o6catcherdad, Moc1 and all the rest.

My family and I are with you. Hopefully, it is an injury that will heal without surgery but, even if surgery is needed, if your son is anything like his mother [and from all i know he is] he will work and rehab and be good as new. Good Luck and Good Fortune.

quote:

Chris, are you saying he is "dragging" his arm? That definately can cause shoulder problems and is easily fixed with one simple drill.

Kind of, but not exactly.

In the photo below, you can see that he is doing what some people would consider to be scap(ular) loading (and what other people would consider to be dragging the upper arm behind the shoulder).



I am a little concerned with how far his pitching elbow is behind his back (it looks like his humerus may be adducted 45 degrees, which is a lot) because this would strain the front of his his rotator cuff (e.g. the Subscapularis). However, his elbow is below his shoulder at this point, which I believe is good (of course, his elbow could have been above his shoulder just a moment before -- which I believe is bad).

My bigger concern is that at this moment it looks like his shoulders have started to turn toward the plate (look how he is pulling back with his glove and his glove-side elbow) but his pitching forearm is not yet vertical. Instead, it is about 45 degrees to the 3B side of vertical. As the rate at which his shoulders turns increases, his pitching arm will rapidly externally rotate 45+90=135 degrees. Typically, the pitching arms of pitchers only rapidly externally rotate (or "bounce" or "lay back") 90 degrees. This is stressful, but not outside of the limits of what the body can handle. However, I believe I have noticed a pattern in which pitchers whose pitching arms rapidly externally rotate 135 or more degrees (e.g. Chris Carpenter of my Cardinals) are more susceptible to Labrum and Biceps problems.

I believe that this is a mechanical problem (really a timing problem) that can be solved by tweaking exactly when the pitcher starts to rotate their shoulders.

Coach Chris,

It is very inappropriate for you to continue to hijack this thread with your attempt at analysis and a photo of one of our member's sons, when the parent of this college pitcher posted above that she objected to your previous post!

I am very concerned about the attempts you make to give advice about injuries and mechanics in several different forums of this website. Your background and many of the analyses you have posted so far do not seem credible, and it appears that you jump to conclusions when the data available to you is much too limited to support that conclusion - such as this single still photo of a pitcher.

There are visitors and members who might not realize how limited your actual background is, and might cause harm to their own sons by following your advice. For their protection, I request that you stop posting this type of advice when it is based on far too little information to support the advice.

quote:

It is very inappropriate for you to continue to hijack this thread with your attempt at analysis, when the parent of this college pitcher posted above that she objected to your previous post!

I'm certainly not trying to cause any offense and will stop posting on this.

However, I do hope that people realize that sometimes problems have mechanical causes and can only be fixed by mechanical solutions.

And for the record, I don't think that means completely tearing down a pitcher's motion as Dr. Marshall would suggest.

Sorry for any problems I've caused.

Just trying to help.

DR Coach Chris

You do not know when to cease and desist do you?

I have been around this site for enough years to be able to decipher between the knows and know nots--you sir are a KNOW NOT--I truly suggest you find another site to "sell" your "papers".

CoachChris,

Enough already! He is at Clemson, they have more personal experience with arm injuries than you do. You should call them (Clemson coaching staff) and give them your thoughts rather than give them to all of us on a messageboard.

Barbara, sorry to hear about David, 06 catchers dad, sorry to hear about your son.

FWIW, Here is my experience. Have had a son (pitcher) with 2 surgeries including TJ. Have seen numerous arm injuries over many years. Nearly every one is first diagnosed by physician as tendinitis. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't! Arm injuries require specialist (not Coach Chris). Nearly every TJ surgery I've been around was first diagnosed as tendinitis.

CoachChris, While I have not studied as hard as you, I have had much more first hand experience. Reason I know that is because I've watched your video clip. I respect your passion and endless study regarding mechanics. However, my experience has been... Every pitcher out there is a candidate for elbow or shoulder surgery. As long as pitchers want to be successful pitching they will incorporate the best mechanics that will allow them to throw their very best. The arm is always at high risk for injury. There have been some with ideal mechanics require TJ or shoulder surgery. There have been some with unusually strange mechanics who pitched in the Big Leagues for a very long time without surgery.

This is not to say mechanics are not important. We all know the importance of good throwing mechanics. But you can give me the one high school or college pitcher you think has the very best mechanics and I could say he is a candidate for arm injury or surgery. That's the reason you have so many that you can research. You use results of those who have had long successful careers and claim they would have been even better with different mechanics. Please understand, give me 15 years of Major League pitching and MLB salary with bad mechanics and I'll laugh all the way to the operating table. How can you honestly claim someone would have been better with different mechanics. Is it possible that some might not even had a career if they threw the ball differently.

Here's hoping all your son's stay healthy or get healthy fast. Throwing a baseball is dangerous to the throwing arm and shoulder! I admire everyone who is willing to do it. There are many things besides mechanics that can help... good work ethic, good nutrition, good stretching, gaining strength, etc. etc. While I do believe mechanics are #1, there are many other reasons for arm injuries! In my experience... arm injuries require a specialist. I just have seen too many surgeries on players diagnosed with tendinitis by doctors.