Does wearing wrist bands with the signals on them cut down on the missed signals? 5 years ago I’d see 1 or 2 teams a season who did it, but now I’m guessing a third of them do.
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Not sure, but it's obnoxious as hell listening to HS coaches yell out numbers before every pitch.
Nuke83 posted:Not sure, but it's obnoxious as hell listening to HS coaches yell out numbers before every pitch.
My sons HS Coach does it, ugh! After 2 games of it I now sit down the line somewhere so I can’t hear it. Bout to be on year 3 in a few months
We played a team a few years back where the pitcher put his "game card" in his cap. The coach would yell out the numbers, everyone else would do the wrist review and the pitcher would literally take off his cap and stare into it for a few seconds then put it back on his head. Talk about a slow game.
Get used to it they do it in college. But the coaches give signs for the numbers and also helps in preventing stealing signs.
TPM posted:Get used to it they do it in college. But the coaches give signs for the numbers and also helps in preventing stealing signs.
That's what I've seen for the most part, and when the players get used to it, the game just rocks right along.
I would imagine it would cut down missing signals a great deal. I've never used them in baseball (though I did use a number system just no wristbands) I have however used them for many years with a no huddle offense in youth football. Way better than signals but football has built in time to read the wristbands baseball doesn't. I don't understand the wrist bands in baseball. A number system that can't be figured out by the other coach is easy enough without the wristbands.
Stats4Gnats posted:Does wearing wrist bands with the signals on them cut down on the missed signals? 5 years ago I’d see 1 or 2 teams a season who did it, but now I’m guessing a third of them do.
Yes. Very much so. We may have 1 or 2 missed signs a year now tops.
Scotty83 posted:I don't understand the wrist bands in baseball. A number system that can't be figured out by the other coach is easy enough without the wristbands.
Can you explain an example? I'm not sure how to do that, but if it's possible I'd love to hear the explanation.
ironhorse posted:Scotty83 posted:I don't understand the wrist bands in baseball. A number system that can't be figured out by the other coach is easy enough without the wristbands.
Can you explain an example? I'm not sure how to do that, but if it's possible I'd love to hear the explanation.
You just use one number per action. Like 1 for steal with a take. Then change which spot in the order the number with meaning is. Ex. If it's the first number then call out 137. If the second number 317 or third 371. The 1 told them what to do. Depending on the other coach and how the games going sometimes you have to change it a lot some times only once a game. I've had a couple teams have trouble with it at the start of the season. So I had a dry erase board in the dugout only my players could see then every inning write down which action number it would be. In the rare occasion say we had a lot of steals or bunts in an inning the any same number all three times, like 444 or 777, meant move the action number up one. It really doesn't matter if every coach in the district knows 1 means steal. If they gear up for a steal every time you call a 1 then just put a 1 in every number you call just in a nonaction spot in the order.
Its also pretty easy to bait a coach that thinks he has it figured out. I actually got a coach once that got all caught up in it to walk a kid with pitchouts trying to catch a kid stealing lol.
I've used one since highschool. Coach flashes numbers, look at wristband, call the pitch.
Takes about 10 seconds
My sons freshman year he played another HS, and both coaches did the wristguards thing, and every pitch they would call out numbers.
We were hanging out with a dad from the other team who my son had played summer ball when he yelled out...... BINGO!!!! you coaches just called all the numbers on my Bingo card!!
Needless to say everyone the stands started laughing.
We used wristbands and it cuts down on the number of missed signs greatly.
For those of you that think its annoying.....So is watching a coach touch 10 body parts with 2 outs, 2 strikes, and nobody on.
The vast majority of college teams I know will use the wrist band for calling pitches and defensive signals. The coach doesn't yell out he just flashes the numbers example 3 - 2 - 1 and that's it. As far as base runners most I watch still use an indicator and signs. I thought the wrist band deal was going to take over but I'm seeing more go back to traditional signs for baserunners now.
Yelling out numbers the entire game probably got old for these coaches. I know that I found it annoying but to each his own. It may be different for you other people but I am seeing less of it not more. As far as baserunners.
D1catcher posted:I've used one since highschool. Coach flashes numbers, look at wristband, call the pitch.
Takes about 10 seconds
Can you recommend a brand? Also would appreciate your input on any particulars.
Scotty83 posted:ironhorse posted:Scotty83 posted:I don't understand the wrist bands in baseball. A number system that can't be figured out by the other coach is easy enough without the wristbands.
Can you explain an example? I'm not sure how to do that, but if it's possible I'd love to hear the explanation.
You just use one number per action. Like 1 for steal with a take. Then change which spot in the order the number with meaning is. Ex. If it's the first number then call out 137. If the second number 317 or third 371. The 1 told them what to do. Depending on the other coach and how the games going sometimes you have to change it a lot some times only once a game. I've had a couple teams have trouble with it at the start of the season. So I had a dry erase board in the dugout only my players could see then every inning write down which action number it would be. In the rare occasion say we had a lot of steals or bunts in an inning the any same number all three times, like 444 or 777, meant move the action number up one. It really doesn't matter if every coach in the district knows 1 means steal. If they gear up for a steal every time you call a 1 then just put a 1 in every number you call just in a nonaction spot in the order.
Its also pretty easy to bait a coach that thinks he has it figured out. I actually got a coach once that got all caught up in it to walk a kid with pitchouts trying to catch a kid stealing lol.
I gotcha, but doesn't that limit you to only be able to have 10 "things" to put on?
And kids have to memorize those 10?
adbono posted:D1catcher posted:I've used one since highschool. Coach flashes numbers, look at wristband, call the pitch.
Takes about 10 seconds
Can you recommend a brand? Also would appreciate your input on any particulars.
We use Neumann ones now. There's was a weird consolation in the wristband industry apparently a few years ago that made it hard to get anything else. Been happy with them. We give the kids 1-pane wristbands and the coaches have 3-pane wristbands to carry a little more info.
And for the record, we don't yell out numbers. We still use an indicator and spots on the body to represent numbers. Although, with some of our non-honor student kids I've been known to yell them out.
We have used wristbands for 9 years now at the high school level, kids started to not understand hand signs something simple such as touches to the box (touches to chest and stomach). We use own the Zone and for some reason we might miss 2 signs all year. We use the same cards on offense, we have a new card for each game, we use it by never calling the same number twice, it works as we want to hit and run, there are 20 sets of three number sequence that work for hit and run such as 345 the players look down see two letters such as SQ and it tells them its a hit and run. We don't yell numbers and I will even go as far as to say it will take a below average coach and make him better as he now has to think about scenarios before they happen and if a pitch is a ball or strike and the count and possible count and who is on and who is on deck and what the defensive team does and who the pitcher is and how he is throwing. Its not complicated and players get it. We also have quick signs body indicators for times where our numbers dont mean anything or we dont want to give numbers, they are a single touch to the body, such as a nonchalant touch to the nose could be steal.
We use Nuemann wrist bands but the own the zone software and like I said 9 years of using it and yes I learned about it from college coaches. Who use it for offense, pitching and defensive scenarios.
ironhorse posted:And for the record, we don't yell out numbers. We still use an indicator and spots on the body to represent numbers. Although, with some of our non-honor student kids I've been known to yell them out.
True story: I once literally yelled from the third base box, "Tyler!!!!! You are stealing! On the next pitch!" Great kid, understood the signs...he just forgot them between the time he acknowledged them and the actual pitch happened. He was one of those kids that very frequently got caught up watching the game while he was supposed to be playing the game.
(Believe it or not, he was safe on the steal. Defense froze. Probably thinking there was no possible way that the steal was actually on.)
As for the cards: never used them, never liked the shouting out of numbers and whatnot, and just one more thing to have to bring along and keep organized on game day. I totally get that they can be very effective--but I rarely called the pitches (I had a catcher for that), and never felt that the defense needed to be so complicated that a few simple gestures (signs) couldn't suffice. Same with offense. If I really needed to do something exotic, I could just ask Blue for time...
-42
4T2 posted:True story: I once literally yelled from the third base box, "Tyler!!!!! You are stealing! On the next pitch!" Great kid, understood the signs...he just forgot them between the time he acknowledged them and the actual pitch happened. He was one of those kids that very frequently got caught up watching the game while he was supposed to be playing the game.
(Believe it or not, he was safe on the steal. Defense froze. Probably thinking there was no possible way that the steal was actually on.)
...
OK, slight side-step from the OP topic but 42's story reminded me of a story I probably told here before...
Moons ago, coaching a youth game (12's/13's ??), I have a player who is the real life version of Forrest Gump. Very animated, thick glasses, very smart but very not, wore the pants REALLY high, the running form was dead ringer for Gump.
He had to use the restroom mid-game, which was out beyond CF (no fence) at a school. He is making his way back and is due up to bat. Everyone yelling for him to hurry, he does his patented sprint straight through the field... arms pumping high, belt buckle somewhere near the chest, glasses bouncing - all fans, players, umps busting up. He makes his way to the batters box and catches his breath. I am coaching third and give him the bunt sign. Indicator was second sign. He steps out of the box and motions in a very animated way... to make sure he got the sign right... with wide eyes and an inquisitive look, he flashes two fingers (second sign) and then squares toward me, holding perfect bunting form, in effect confirming with me via his secret code but, at the same time, telling the whole world clearly what he was about to do.
15 years later, every kid and coach from that team and every parent that was at that game still laughs at that five minutes in time that he gave us. My guess is he's probably a rocket scientist for NASA now.
ironhorse posted:Scotty83 posted:ironhorse posted:Scotty83 posted:I don't understand the wrist bands in baseball. A number system that can't be figured out by the other coach is easy enough without the wristbands.
Can you explain an example? I'm not sure how to do that, but if it's possible I'd love to hear the explanation.
You just use one number per action. Like 1 for steal with a take. Then change which spot in the order the number with meaning is. Ex. If it's the first number then call out 137. If the second number 317 or third 371. The 1 told them what to do. Depending on the other coach and how the games going sometimes you have to change it a lot some times only once a game. I've had a couple teams have trouble with it at the start of the season. So I had a dry erase board in the dugout only my players could see then every inning write down which action number it would be. In the rare occasion say we had a lot of steals or bunts in an inning the any same number all three times, like 444 or 777, meant move the action number up one. It really doesn't matter if every coach in the district knows 1 means steal. If they gear up for a steal every time you call a 1 then just put a 1 in every number you call just in a nonaction spot in the order.
Its also pretty easy to bait a coach that thinks he has it figured out. I actually got a coach once that got all caught up in it to walk a kid with pitchouts trying to catch a kid stealing lol.
I gotcha, but doesn't that limit you to only be able to have 10 "things" to put on?
And kids have to memorize those 10?
Yes but I don't like to do that much micromanaging in a game so I've never had to use more than 9.
They memorize it pretty easy during the first few practices easier than signals anyway. I also use the same system for calling pitches so the catchers and pitchers have to learn three sets (offensive play, pitch type, pitch location) but it's never been a problem.
Also I signal with my hands I don't yell out the number. I never liked that.
I use a number system for pitches but not the cards. We use four numbers and we will pick which of the four numbers is for the pitch and which for the location. I can easily change it during an inning if we think someone might be picking it up. There are two numbers for each pitch so not the same number over and over and we mix in the similar numbers for the others. Makes the game so much faster than some guy touching his nose ear and chin after every pitch.
As to why the pitcher may be looking in his hat is because some umpires will not allow the pitcher to wear the wristband on his arm or his belt. We used wristbands for defense but had umpires who would not let them wear them so they had to stick it in their pocket or put it in their cap.
I wonder how many colleges utilize pitches called by the coach (including wrist bands) compared to catcher called pitches.
My son (15/u) typically calls his own games and even when playing for a team the first time, its not long before the coach feels comfortable letting him go on his own.
If you have an intelligent catcher next to a catcher who never has called his own games, I guess wrist bands level the playing field. Not sure how I feel about that since I know my son works hard at calling a good game and picking the brains of his coaches to improve at it even more.
Kevin A posted:I wonder how many colleges utilize pitches called by the coach (including wrist bands) compared to catcher called pitches.
My son (15/u) typically calls his own games and even when playing for a team the first time, its not long before the coach feels comfortable letting him go on his own.
If you have an intelligent catcher next to a catcher who never has called his own games, I guess wrist bands level the playing field. Not sure how I feel about that since I know my son works hard at calling a good game and picking the brains of his coaches to improve at it even more.
Well, Kevin A, you're sure to get the thumbs up from the opening poster, Stats, on the catcher calling his own game (one of his favorite agenda topics) but reality is that it is far more common for pitches to be called from the dugout throughout HS and college. Even at the pro level, when catchers do call pitches, it is only after they have gone through the books and trends on hitters before the game, often with the influence of the P coach. There are several threads you can search where the pros and cons are discussed at great length. It is a blast for a catcher who is so inclined so tell your son to enjoy it while he can. It is likely to not always be the case.
cabbagedad posted:Kevin A posted:I wonder how many colleges utilize pitches called by the coach (including wrist bands) compared to catcher called pitches.
My son (15/u) typically calls his own games and even when playing for a team the first time, its not long before the coach feels comfortable letting him go on his own.
If you have an intelligent catcher next to a catcher who never has called his own games, I guess wrist bands level the playing field. Not sure how I feel about that since I know my son works hard at calling a good game and picking the brains of his coaches to improve at it even more.
Well, Kevin A, you're sure to get the thumbs up from the opening poster, Stats, on the catcher calling his own game (one of his favorite agenda topics) but reality is that it is far more common for pitches to be called from the dugout throughout HS and college. Even at the pro level, when catchers do call pitches, it is only after they have gone through the books and trends on hitters before the game, often with the influence of the P coach. There are several threads you can search where the pros and cons are discussed at great length. It is a blast for a catcher who is so inclined so tell your son to enjoy it while he can. It is likely to not always be the case.
I will see Cabbages comment, and raise the stakes. While what I'm about to say may not be popular with some, but I have found it to be true. Very, very few HS (or younger) catchers have any idea how to call a game. Calling a game is an art form and it's not the same for every pitcher. It's not the same for the SAME pitcher every time out. It takes years of experience to become adept at it. The more competitive the program (whether in HS or college) the less inclined the coaching staff will be to having anyone call pitches but themselves.
Straight from a College Coach:
Regarding calling the game – I call it, not the catcher. Ultimately the pitcher has the right to shake any pitch so if that’s the case, I think I should make the recommended pitch instead of the catcher. It just doesn’t make sense to me to have a lesser baseball person make suggestions.
Wales posted:Straight from a College Coach:
Regarding calling the game – I call it, not the catcher. Ultimately the pitcher has the right to shake any pitch so if that’s the case, I think I should make the recommended pitch instead of the catcher. It just doesn’t make sense to me to have a lesser baseball person make suggestions.
Exactly
Wales posted: Straight from a College Coach:
Regarding calling the game – I call it, not the catcher. Ultimately the pitcher has the right to shake any pitch so if that’s the case, I think I should make the recommended pitch instead of the catcher. It just doesn’t make sense to me to have a lesser baseball person make suggestions.
Of course if you want to call the pitches, it’s entirely your prerogative. But I wonder if you’ve ever tested whether the opponent’s performance is better or worse if your catchers called the pitches or if you did, or seen any kind of study at all that proves what you believe is true.
Be that as it may, what is so complicated about calling pitches that you can’t teach it to the catchers? I’m not trying to start an argument or trying to be derisive in any way. I honestly fail to see what’s so difficult about it that with a little practice a catcher can’t do just as good at it as a coach who has a million other things on his mind, without nearly the advantage of seeing and feeling the pitches.
Stats4Gnats posted:Wales posted: Straight from a College Coach:
Regarding calling the game – I call it, not the catcher. Ultimately the pitcher has the right to shake any pitch so if that’s the case, I think I should make the recommended pitch instead of the catcher. It just doesn’t make sense to me to have a lesser baseball person make suggestions.
Of course if you want to call the pitches, it’s entirely your prerogative. But I wonder if you’ve ever tested whether the opponent’s performance is better or worse if your catchers called the pitches or if you did, or seen any kind of study at all that proves what you believe is true.
Be that as it may, what is so complicated about calling pitches that you can’t teach it to the catchers? I’m not trying to start an argument or trying to be derisive in any way. I honestly fail to see what’s so difficult about it that with a little practice a catcher can’t do just as good at it as a coach who has a million other things on his mind, without nearly the advantage of seeing and feeling the pitches.
Stats, you know you can go through the past threads on the topic. You were right there in the middle of them, at least all the ones that I recall. The same reasons that applied then apply now. If you didn't buy it before, you are not going to buy it now.
I was going to say something about not veering from the OP but it's your thread so never mind. 
cabbagedad posted: Stats, you know you can go through the past threads on the topic. You were right there in the middle of them, at least all the ones that I recall. The same reasons that applied then apply now. If you didn't buy it before, you are not going to buy it now.
I was going to say something about not veering from the OP but it's your thread so never mind.
Don’t blame me for veering, blame KEVIN A. 
You’re considered an expert, so at what point in your baseball “career” did you become expert at calling pitches?
You know me. I make no pretense about wanting to see some kind of verifiable proof before I accept much of anything. To me, unless there’s some kind of proof beyond anecdotal, all we’re talking about is myth.
But any “argument” aside, why can’t catchers be taught how to call pitches? Is it really so difficult that it takes upwards of 10 years to learn?
Yes
Pitcher son in HS often times didn't have the coaches call pitches, especially in travel ball. The HC thought that it was a lesson in learning, you make a mistake, you guys own it.
In college, the stakes get higher. It's about winning and being familiar with the competition. It's the p coaches job to know the hitters, a new coach sometimes has to watch endless hours of video of the competitions hitters to know what to pitch or not pitch to them. Catchers have enough to do with bull pens, hitting practice, and oh yeah, don't forget they have classes and schoolwork. Ever wonder why the same programs seem to be successful? It's because the coaches make it their business to know the other players in their conference, year after year. That's what this game is about at the higher levels, know your opponent or he will beat you. Thats why teams scout one another!!!
In pro ball,beginning at the minor league level, catchers who make it to that level usually can remember each hitter, and they study charts with pitchers as well, and pitchers watch the opposing hitters on their off days and many take notes. Its a lot of work.
And if you ever wondered why some make it and others don't, that's it. Its not because of guess work. And when they make it to the top, they get to call their own stuff!!!
Stats doesn't get it, he never did and never will.
Can you teach a catcher to call pitches, you can. However, they have to have the desire to spend the time in the classroom and on the field learning the art because that is exactly what it is. You are asking a HS catcher, that take 6 classes a day(some being AP), practicing, in the weight room, and has homework to learn how to call pitches for 4-5 different pitchers and then mix in if the kid is playing travel ball you are now asking him to learn even more pitchers. That is a lot of time this kid has to spend learning to call pitches. To me, it is not they can't learn it is they must have the burning desire to do it.
adbono posted:I will see Cabbages comment, and raise the stakes. While what I'm about to say may not be popular with some, but I have found it to be true. Very, very few HS (or younger) catchers have any idea how to call a game. Calling a game is an art form and it's not the same for every pitcher. It's not the same for the SAME pitcher every time out. It takes years of experience to become adept at it. The more competitive the program (whether in HS or college) the less inclined the coaching staff will be to having anyone call pitches but themselves.
Agreed. And to raise it even further, at my son's HS the pitchers don't shake off the PC's call, ever. I guess they could, but I've never seen it.
Funny story. This past summer my son's travel team played in a high-level tournament on a college campus on the other side of the country. The first game the coaches let the catchers call the pitches. The second catcher of the game came in for the 6th, and my son came in to pitch the 6th and 7th against a good team coached by a well known HSBBW poster. Tight game. The catcher -- who I'm sure never called pitches for his high school -- called 35 fastballs in a row, knee high, outside corner. In between innings my son asked him why he was calling the same pitch over and over, and he apologized but then did the same thing in the 7th. My son shook him off twice in the 7th, so the result was 33 fastballs and 2 breaking balls. For the rest of the tournament the coach called the pitches.
adbono posted: I will see Cabbages comment, and raise the stakes. While what I'm about to say may not be popular with some, but I have found it to be true. Very, very few HS (or younger) catchers have any idea how to call a game. Calling a game is an art form and it's not the same for every pitcher. It's not the same for the SAME pitcher every time out. It takes years of experience to become adept at it. The more competitive the program (whether in HS or college) the less inclined the coaching staff will be to having anyone call pitches but themselves.
I’m not trying to say anything different, but I am asking a few questions I’ve never seen answered with anything other than opinion. Is every person calling pitches in the dugout superior to every catcher not being allowed to do it? How is pitch calling superiority measured? How does a catcher prove he’s ready to call pitches?
2019Dad posted:…Funny story. This past summer my son's travel team played in a high-level tournament on a college campus on the other side of the country. The first game the coaches let the catchers call the pitches. The second catcher of the game came in for the 6th, and my son came in to pitch the 6th and 7th against a good team coached by a well known HSBBW poster. Tight game. The catcher -- who I'm sure never called pitches for his high school -- called 35 fastballs in a row, knee high, outside corner. In between innings my son asked him why he was calling the same pitch over and over, and he apologized but then did the same thing in the 7th. My son shook him off twice in the 7th, so the result was 33 fastballs and 2 breaking balls. For the rest of the tournament the coach called the pitches.
When I hear stories like that, I wonder WTF is wrong with the coach? Unless he’s totally oblivious he had to notice the same pitch being throw every time. If he didn’t call time and have a conference to find out what was going on, he was either not paying attention at all or trying to prove some unknown point. If a coach doesn’t call the same pitch 66 out of 70 times, why on earth wouldn’t he tell the catcher to mix it up a little?
Obviously the 1st catcher did pretty well if it was a tight game in the 6th. Did your son throw all 35 pitches knee high and on the outside corner? It sounds like your son had total control of the pitches thrown, so why didn’t he shake off more pitches?
I’m sorry, but to me it sounds like a who lot of people weren’t doing their jobs very well.
Stats4Gnats posted:2019Dad posted:…Funny story. This past summer my son's travel team played in a high-level tournament on a college campus on the other side of the country. The first game the coaches let the catchers call the pitches. The second catcher of the game came in for the 6th, and my son came in to pitch the 6th and 7th against a good team coached by a well known HSBBW poster. Tight game. The catcher -- who I'm sure never called pitches for his high school -- called 35 fastballs in a row, knee high, outside corner. In between innings my son asked him why he was calling the same pitch over and over, and he apologized but then did the same thing in the 7th. My son shook him off twice in the 7th, so the result was 33 fastballs and 2 breaking balls. For the rest of the tournament the coach called the pitches.
When I hear stories like that, I wonder
It sounds like your son had total control of the pitches thrown, so why didn’t he shake off more pitches?
Yeah, but he's used to pitching for his HS program where pitchers don't shake off. So it had to get really, really egregious before he shook off a pitch. And coach did change for all remaining games (took over the pitch calling). In any event, I thought it was funny, in a mind-boggling way.
P.S. -- just to clarify, it was 35 pitches over two innings. The same pitch was called every time but with two shakeoffs it ended up as 33 fastballs, 2 breaking balls.
Stats4Gnats posted:
I’m not trying to say anything different, but I am asking a few questions I’ve never seen answered with anything other than opinion. Is every person calling pitches in the dugout superior to every catcher not being allowed to do it? How is pitch calling superiority measured? How does a catcher prove he’s ready to call pitches?
I guess superiority could be debated in some cases, but in cases with coaches who have been coaching awhile I would argue that the people in the dugout are going to be "superior" compared to the teenage catcher.
More important to me though is knowledge of opponent and access to information. I'm the head coach. I have a pitching coach who calls pitches. We'll have a chart on every hitter we've faced in district over the last few years. We'll talk about hitters before the game, and have that book on hand throughout the game, charting pitches thrown and results.
It would be extremely rare for a kid to be able to match that, all while dealing with all kinds of other stimuli that he has to process throughout a game, armed only with a teenage brain.
ironhorse posted:Stats4Gnats posted:
I’m not trying to say anything different, but I am asking a few questions I’ve never seen answered with anything other than opinion. Is every person calling pitches in the dugout superior to every catcher not being allowed to do it? How is pitch calling superiority measured? How does a catcher prove he’s ready to call pitches?
I guess superiority could be debated in some cases, but in cases with coaches who have been coaching awhile I would argue that the people in the dugout are going to be "superior" compared to the teenage catcher.
More important to me though is knowledge of opponent and access to information. I'm the head coach. I have a pitching coach who calls pitches. We'll have a chart on every hitter we've faced in district over the last few years. We'll talk about hitters before the game, and have that book on hand throughout the game, charting pitches thrown and results.
It would be extremely rare for a kid to be able to match that, all while dealing with all kinds of other stimuli that he has to process throughout a game, armed only with a teenage brain.
Amen, brother! Well said.