Welcome Back, Tyler Hibbs!

Same here Midlo. I got the chance to meet and spend some time with Tyler and his dad a couple of times. I know he put himself in tough situation but Im hoping he has learned from that and I wish him the absolute best.

http://nolesports.tallahassee.com/article/20081114/FSU06/811140335/0/FSU08

http://www.tallahassee.com/article/20081114/FSU06/811140335/1008/FSU

http://floridastate.scout.com/2/813821.html

Great for this player, but not so great for the 99% of the players who abide by the law and actually listen to what they are told, from the time they are 4 years old, about how to behave both on and off the field. Another roster slot disappears for those kids, taken up by a kid who ignored the lectures by the coaches and parents and teachers.

Second chances are great, but don't try to tell the kids that character and behavior matter when those who get the second chances are those who broke the rules (or in some cases, the law), and those second chances come at the expense of the kids who behaved as they have always been told they have to behave. PacMan Jones, Plaxico Burress, Josh Hamilton . . . We live in a world that preaches one thing and, when the money and championships matter, does another.

Baloney.

The law says you will be punished, and he was.

The law does not say his punishment should last his entire lifetime. And it shouldn't.

I don't think any kid with a brain would look at this situation and say, "Gee, that's what I'll do."

But maybe somebody who has already screwed up can look at it and say, "My life doesn't have to be over, if I can straighten myself out."

Midlo Dad: I am all for second chances, and even, in some cases, third, fourth and fifth chances. And I judge no one in terms of his soul or spirit, for I have sinned greater than any. However, in THIS world, we must pass judgment all the time. We make decisions about whom to hire, whom to fire, what job to take, what school to attend, all based on our common sense, experience, and judgment. So, I think it is fair to look at this situation and take the position that this particular young man's second chance comes at the expense of some other young man's first chance.

John Smith, a player of outstanding baseball talent, who does most of what Hibbs can do, but has done it without the criminal misconduct, now loses a chance at a scholarship to FSU because Hibbs's misconduct has been, essentially, ignored. That trickles down, and Mark Jones will lose his first chance opportunity at, say, Winthrop because John Smith lands there. And so. In short, giving Mr. Hibbs his second chance has adversely impacted a bunch of other good kids who did not commit this sort of misconduct.

As for that misconduct, you are correct. We all make mistakes, we all are given chances beyond the first. That is great. It has to be so since we all fail so often. However, our kids are told, by parents, administrators, coaches, ministers, teachers. . . that "these are the rules and if you break them you will not play baseball for this program." Coaches, in particular, tell their players this all the time. The kids know the rules. Hibbs CHOSE to break the rules (and the law). Other kids, with nearly his talent or even at his talent level, CHOSE NOT to break the rules. Yet, in the end, Hibbs comes off with the plumb reward while those other kids do not. THAT is what I object to in this case.

It ultimately is FSU's call. They have made a value judgment--Hibbs's talent supports FSU's decision to given him the second chance ahead of those kids who did not violate the rules or the law. I am merely offering an alternative disposition with respect to that balancing test.

isaacvanwart,

The statement that Tyler is somehow taking somebody's scholarship that didn't get into trouble is foolish. I don't know Tyler other than seeing him at a Perfect Game State Showcase in Maryland that we attended with my son. He seemed like a good kid and actually warmed my son up when nobody else would. From what I've heard he has worked very hard to reach his goals. So instead of saying FSU gave him a scholarship, you might want to say he earned it from alot of hard work. I think anybody that thinks they lost a chance to compete at the next level because somebody else took a scholarship spot needs to look in the mirror and not at someone else. My son also was forced off the field for awhile but because of a injury and I can tell you this. That when something like baseball is taken away from someone who has worked very hard to get where they are, it changes them. My son now takes nothing for granted and I would bet that Tyler is the same. I would be willing to bet that this experience will make Tyler not only a better ballplayer but also a better person. In any event I would like to wish Tyler the best and hope he fulfills his dreams.


JMO

Banditsbb

Isaac,

Think of it this way.

You're saying that the higher a kid's pre-offense achievement, the more he should be punished.

Because you want him not only to face jail etc., but to lose everything he had worked for. Meanwhile someone with lesser talent, or who didn't work as hard, gets what he might have had.

To me, he should be punished the same as other offenders of similar grade offenses. The other kids aren't being denied admission to college, they aren't being denied hire by trade employers, and they don't generally face a blackball for the rest of their lives. I see no reason to enhance punishment only for the achiever who errs, when no one else faces that fate.

I would like to join the side that will be pulling for Tyler Hibbs.

You say you are for second chances but from your posts I dont believe you believe in that unless maybe if its your kid. The kid made some bad decisions. All of them do. Some get caught and some do not. If you dont believe that all kids make bad decisions your kidding yourself. I am not saying they all make the kind of bad decisions Tyler did but they all make bad decisions.

Tyler paid the price for his bad decision. You can bet he suffered a tremendous amount and so did his family. The embarrassment and the worry , sleepless nights etc etc. I applaud FSU for giving him a second chance. This is America. They all deserve a second chance regardless of how talented they are. Just because he is talented does not mean he shouldnt get a second chance. He is not taking anything away from anyone. He is taking his spot that he earned and he has the chance now to redeem himself and FSU for giving him a second chance.

There are alot of great kids out there. There are alot of great kids out there that make bad decisions and get caught. There are alot of great kids out there that make bad decisions and dont get caught. I pull for all of them. And I am pulling like heck for Tyler Hibbs. I pull for all the kids. I hope your son never gets in any kind of trouble. But if he does I hope someone still believes in him and gives him a second chance. And I hope you think twice about saying you believe in something and post something entirely different.

With FSU's track record for arrested athletes, is this really a good school for an athlete trying to rehab?

This the school he signed with out of hs. This is the school he wanted to attend. I have no idea how many baseball players have been arrested at FSU compared to other baseball programs across the nation. I believe Mike Martin runs a good program and I believe they have great young men in that program. Are they perfect? No. But what program is?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
This the school he signed with out of hs. This is the school he wanted to attend. I have no idea how many baseball players have been arrested at FSU compared to other baseball programs across the nation. I believe Mike Martin runs a good program and I believe they have great young men in that program. Are they perfect? No. But what program is?

I didnt mean or say arrested baseball players- just arrested athletes in general from FSU-

I guess there is somewhere you could check and see who has the most arrested athletes in the NCAA. I would have no idea where FSU would rank in this area. And I do not see how players arrested in other sports would have any bearing on the baseball program.

What would be a good school?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
I guess there is somewhere you could check and see who has the most arrested athletes in the NCAA. I would have no idea where FSU would rank in this area. And I do not see how players arrested in other sports would have any bearing on the baseball program.

What would be a good school?

I dont know would be a good schools but I do know per the news reports that last year almost 2 dozen athletes from 9 different sports at FSU were implicated for cheating over the internet.

So,,, I am led to believe that athletes in schools befriend other athletes of the other sports and I am just thinking that this young man will have to be careful as to who his friends are at FSU.

We all know of many schools that are notorious for problems with their football programs- including FSU.

Would be kind of neat I guess to see "who is Number 1" for athletes arrested.

SPS,

Actually an interesting topic if you ask me. So I started it in the general items forum.

Just thought this thread should be more of a positive sort of subject. A comeback story of sorts.

I really enjoyed that HR Display at the All Star game this year. Sure glad Josh Hamilton got all those chances. What a position he is now in to educate and help young people.

Again, don't mistake being critical with being hostile. The hyper-sensitivitiy of many (e.g., "bandit") on the HSBBW is becoming a concern to me. Just because YOU say something, I don't NECESSARILY have to agree with it. This same sort of thing happened on the "Ask About Colleges" Forum. I was critical of the poor facilities and poor support for baseball at GTown, and the following posts were aggressively negative (e.g., "What, did GTown not admit you when you applied. . .") It is perfectly acceptable for a poster to disagree with you.

Now, as for this topic, from the start I wrote that "I am all for second chances. . ." My crticism had to do with the entire range of authority in a kid's life telling him the rules, the, when he breaks them, letting him get the plumb reward while those who abided by those all-important rules get pushed down. THAT is the issue here. I don't hate Tyler Hibbs. I don't even know him. I wish him well.

But let's go back to the main point here. Midlo, PGStaff, bandit--do you not agree that HS players, from the time they start LL, are told, over and over and over, that "these are the rules; if you don't abide by them, you are done"? One of those rules has always been, "Don't use or possess drugs [especially with minors and especially while driving with minors in your car]." Hibbs, by all accounts a great baseball player, broke the law and the rules. The rules EVERYONE who was anyone had told him from the time he started playing the game.

At the same time, thousands of other great kids, with as much, maybe more, maybe less, talent, abided by those rules. They DID NOT get involved with drugs. But they did not get this opportunity to play for FSU when the guy who broke the rules did. THAT is what I am criticizing.

Now, if you think that Hibbs is so far above, talent-wise, these other worthy, law-abiding kids, and want to tip the balance in his favor based on that execeptional talent, they you are free to do so. I don't agree with it. WE CANNOT TELL THESE KIDS, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THAT IF THEY BREAK THE RULES THERE WILL BE DIRE CONSEQUENCES, AND THEN IGNORE THIS WHEN SOMEONE WITH TALENT DOES THE BREAKING. It is not right. It is, in short, hypocritical and dishonest. It is a horrible example of weakness. Not only the kid you think you are helping sees the weakness, but so do all the other kids you repeatedly told the rules to.

I love the Josh Hamilton story. It is great. I want him to remain courageous and strong and on the path to success. The distinction, if there is one, is that there we are talking about professional sports. It is a business and that makes it a little different. In an earlier post, I mentioned PacMan Jones, Plaxico Burress, and Josh Hamilton. I personally think that of these three, only Hamilton has accepted personal responsibility for his failures and is doing all he can to stay off the dope and do the right thing. THAT might allow for an exception, at least in the case of the professional athlete.

Now, I suppose you can say Hibbs has done the same thing. That is great. That will allow him to succeed, provided he stays the course. But in the amateur world, in the world of college sports, the young adults involved are still in the rules-are-sacred mode. It is not supposed to be about money, or winning, or beating up a rival. It is supposed to be about integrity. We always tell the kids that sports reflect great life lessons. And we tell them integrity matters. And we emphasize that abiding by the rules is paramount. And then, when we want THAT kid to be eligible, we make an exception, losing our own integrity. THAT is the problem with what FSU is doing here.

Good luck to Tyler Hibbs. He is now in a position to keep things on track in his life. Good for him. I wish him nothing but the best. I hope we see him in the pros someday.

That said, what do we do about all those youth and high school baseball lectures our coaches give to our kids about not using drugs, not breaking the rules? Is there any integrity behind any of that?

IVW, I certainly don't have a dog in this race, but I would ask a couple of questions. This case involves FSU, but this happens all the time in many big time programs and in the money generating sports of football and basketball.

The marginal player who breaks the rules will not get same treatment as the star player. But, I think this is a case of human nature (survival of the fittest) and the pressure from University Presidents and AD's to win, and win now. It's always about being in the right spot at the right time. Even in pro ball, depending on who drafts a player there are different chances of making it to the bigs.

Finally, I dont think you can use words like integrity in today's world of sports. These words don't mean what they meant to us growing up, and how we tried to instill these virtues in our own children. The way things are going we'll probably see Webster's remove integrity from their dictionary in about 10 years, and replace it with a word that hasn't even been created.

Good thread.

Coach May,
So what price did Tyler pay. He still got to his goal to play at FSU. Sure it might have been rough till he found out he was not going to get into anymore troble than a slap on the had and then FSU tells hin go to this school in FLA and we will give what you wanted after a year when this all blows over. That is what it looks like from the outside looking in.

itsrosy--I appreciate what you say, but if you are right, then I have really wasted alot of speeches to my baseball and basketball players over the last 15 years. But when our national leaders are never held accountable for their lack of integrity, it is hard to explain to a teenager why he should be accountable for his. I remember my own son, as an 8 year old, asking me why Bill Clinton was still President after he lied. That idea--that you can get away with lying--was contrary to everything I had tried to teach him in his young life. But that life lesson probably meant more to him than anything I said.

Now please, no one jump to the conclusion that I am attacking Tyler Hibbs and his integrity. I have no idea about his integrity. I am being critical of the integrity of our athletic leaders--those who preach integrity and that the rules matter, then don't abide by that preaching when to do so would impact a super-talented player.

PGStaff--by the way, I respect PG enormously. It has provided a ton of players the opportunity to be seen and advance their careers. But let me ask--where would you draw the line? I grant you that the Josh Hamilton story is one of success and can be used as an example of how to get oneself right when things are really down. But, for the sake of argument, would it be inspirational if, instead of a drug addiction, a star player was guilty, in court, of selling drugs? Of spouse abuse? Child abuse? Rape? Murder? Just where is the line of forgiveness and second chances?

Now I'm sorry I tried to say something nice, since it's resulting in folks jumping on the kid all over again (which, by the way, is what got the last thread deleted, so maybe some of you could take a hint before this one ends up in the recycle bin as well).

I have heard of HS coaches telling kids that if they cross the line, they are done. Of course, the HS coach can only say "you're done" with respect to HS baseball. The HS coach is not the executioner for someone's entire life, and I don't know anyone who thinks a possession charge is supposed to bring a life sentence.

In reality, we tell offenders that they have a responsibility to straighten out and get back on track. Apparently some of you think that the response to someone who does exactly that is to say, "Gotcha! We were yanking you! Because although you've done all we asked, we're actually going to keep on punishing you!" But of course, pro sports are full of examples of guys who broke the rules, paid their penance, and worked their way back. Sometimes even repeat offenders. So I don't know where any of you got the idea that possession merits a lifetime of punishment. You're out on a very shaky limb with that notion. I used to be a state legislator and I voted a tough "law and order" line, believe you me, but I have never heard of anyone taking that position.

By the way, Tyler was not allowed to participate in his senior HS season because he broke the rules. I have to assume the criminal justice system did to him what it would do to any other kid in that situation. So right off the bat, Tyler was punished more than a non-baseball kid, since a non-athlete would not have had to face anything beyond whatever the courts meted out.

But that wasn't all. He had to miss being at FSU his freshman year, and he had to face public scorn. So hill, he paid a pretty darned big price -- a lot bigger price than probably any other kid who did what he did in the entire USA within the last 20 years. Satisfied?

A lot of kids would not have come back from that. I'm happy to see that he has, or at least, he's made it this far.

Midlo--Please don't misunderstand or read into my posts, or the posts of most of the people who are critical of the hypocrisy in all of this, any negativity towards the individual, Tyler Hibbs. HE is fine--he is going to FSU--he is going to get to play ACC baseball and compete to play in professional baseball. Congratulations to him, and good luck as well. I think that is great. I REPEAT--I AM ALL FOR SECOND CHANCES (and third and fourth. . . when appropriate).

I am trying to offer some perspective on the debate about when to offer that second chance? What price is there with that second chance? How does impact others? Where do we draw the line on giving these additional chances? This is not intended to be in any way critical of Tyler Hibbs. But his case is a fabulous starting point for this philosophical discussion about what value you place on integrity in our system.

Here is the website for the Hibbs case, just to close the loop:

http://www.clerk-anne-arundel.net/

All charges, from the possession with intent to distribute to the speeding all were resolved through nolle prosequi (the Prosecutor chose to handle the case "by other means") and Hibbs was awarded 3 years of probation with community service. Yes, he was suspended for his senior season. Yes, he missed out on his frosh year at FSU. Yes, he was punished.

Now, let's ask this question again: should what parents, coaches, and ministers teach kids as they grow up about obeying the rules and the consequences of disobedience mean anything?

And, should a kid who breaks the rules, even the law, get that second chance over other kids, of equal or slightly lesser talent, who do not break those rules?

FSU is certainly entitled to do as it sees fit. I wonder, however, where FSU draws the line? How about Notre Dame? UNC? Which of these would give a convicted rapist, for example, a second chance? Should he be given a second chance? How about someone who is convicted of a hate crime? Drug dealing?

And how many chances do we give the player? Is that something decided based upon talent level (say, like PACMAN Jones, who is on about his 8th "second" chance)?

These are all important questions because they have to do with the fundamental values we aspire to in our sports systems. We need to decide what those values are, then make them a reality. THAT is all up to us, the players, parents, coaches, school administrators, fans. . . For example, is rosy right about integrity in sports today? If so, is there any way to remedy that?

Midlo--I know this thread has gone a little off track in the sense that you sought only to congratulate a young man who had been through some difficult time and come out on top. I am partly, if not wholly, responsible for taking his case and jumping off into a philosophical discussion about integrity in the system and what values we want in sports. I believe that the discussion here is appropriate and is a reasonable direction for this thread to pursue. There is no malice intended in any of this. I want to get it right--I want sports, and baseball in particular, to help mold kids into fine young men. THAT is what this is all about.

isaac - I commend you for sticking to your guns and taking the time to explain yourself. I don't sense malice toward this particular player and you have raised some thought-provoking questions. I agree with Midlo that this young man has paid his debt to society however.

Since Pacman Jones was brought up, lets look at the double standards in that situation and they are not all on the side of Jones. Some of his transgressions were merely hanging out at the wrong places (e.g., strip clubs). In my mind, he caused the NFL embarassment. IMHO, he was punished like he was because he threatend the league's "image." We then have Bill Belichick who was breaking the rules of the league by illegally taping his opponents. His transgression went to the actual "integrity" of the game imho. One guy violates the integrity of the game and gets a fine. The next guy violates the image of the game and gets a one year suspension. Where is the justice in that?

Sports makes news because people know about sports figures. Sometimes being a celebrity can help you and sometimes it can hurt. Plaxico is probably going to get hurt now (legally) that Mayor Bloomberg has chimed in publicly. If it were Joe Fabeets, Bloomberg does not say a peep.

I find it disturbing that someone would bring up this issue again (after all of the play that it received when it happened) and suggest that he had no idea it would result in this frenzy....again. That to me is the sad story this time around! Everyone's certainly entitled to his/her opinion but let's leave this player and family out of the discussion. I vote for removing the thread and discussing whether Josh Hamilton and all of the other athletes who have criminal backgrounds deserve second and third chances.

quote:

PGStaff--by the way, I respect PG enormously. It has provided a ton of players the opportunity to be seen and advance their careers. But let me ask--where would you draw the line? I grant you that the Josh Hamilton story is one of success and can be used as an example of how to get oneself right when things are really down. But, for the sake of argument, would it be inspirational if, instead of a drug addiction, a star player was guilty, in court, of selling drugs? Of spouse abuse? Child abuse? Rape? Murder? Just where is the line of forgiveness and second chances?

Isaac,

I think this is a subject that could create a great discussion. I don't like the idea that it features one certain athlete, but guess there is no way to avoid that short of deleting everything.

To answer your question guess I live by the old saying... Fool me once shame on you... Fool me twice shame on me. I do believe in giving second chances for most things and don't think it has anything what-so-ever to do with entigrity.

Regarding which is forgivable I would leave that up to the legal people in most cases. I do believe repeatable actions deserve more severe penalties than one time actions. No one is perfect, we have all received second chances. The offenses you listed are dealt with through the legal system. If the legal system allows a player to go to college or play a sport, should those involved in college athletics disallow that kid that opportunity?

Of course those who are the most talented are most likely to get those second chance opportunities. They wouldn't have been recruited in the first place if they didn't have that talent. Yes, if you take the numbers all the way down, he will take a roster spot if everything works out for the best. He will not have unlimited chances. He might cause one player to be left off that roster, but there are other college opportunities for that player. At the end of the line there will be one player who gets left out of DI baseball. At the end of the next line one player might be left off a DII or NAIA roster. And so on!

I've often said the three main things that affect college recruiting are in this order...

1 - Talent
2 - Grades
3 - Makeup

So should this player be eliminated from all chances to participate in college baseball? If that's your opinion, so be it, I can respect that. If it's just about this individual and FSU but it's OK if he gets a second chance somewhere... Then that still means he will be taking up a roster spot from somebody, somewhere. The only way we can get away from that is by banning a young kid for life for a teenage mistake.

Others can decide which crimes deserve the most punishment. I don't see where things like "murder" have anything to do with this situation.

I would agree with you in regards to professional sports. Bad examples are plentiful!

Once again I think this is a good discussion and you bring up some very valid points. I just wish it were a topic that didn't feature one young individual. Especially one that could become a positive enfluence on other young kids if he so chooses. I hope that is exactly what happens!

Some learn from their mistakes, some don't! We can't hang everyone as soon as they make a mistake.

We tell kids all the time. We talk to kids all the time. And kids still make bad decisions. What does this mean? It means they are human and they make mistakes. We have courts that decide punishment. He went through the process. He paid his dues to society and will continue to pay. What does that mean? It means that he should not be punished the rest of his life for making a mistake. It means he deserves a second chance to right his wrongs. Anyone who suggest he has not suffered has never had a child or knew anyone that went through anything like this. The public punishment is nothing compared to the anquish that goes on behind closed doors in situations like this.

You should be punished for doing what is wrong and he has been punished. Are you saying he should never be allowed to play baseball again? If you say he should be allowed to play again, is the roster spot he will take at a JUCO any less important than the roster spot at FSU? Where do you draw the line? The school the administrators the law will decide that at that particular school.

When a convicted felon goes for a job interview should he not get the job because he is a convicted felon? Ever? His life is over? He should be banished from society because he made a bad decision at the age of 17? Thank God there are people out there that believe in second chances and allowing people to redeem themselves.

Because of Josh Hamiltons struggles he is able to reach many people he would never been able to reach through his ministry. Why? Because there are alot of people out there that want a second chance. They need a second chance. And when they see someone that got a second chance and they made the most of it , it gives them hope. I believe in hope. I believe he second chances. And I believe those that have never needed a second chance that do not understand this will one day when they need one or someone they love does.

As a general comment on society, I agree that integrity is no longer a requirement to succeed. Our economic state is a testament to that.

isaacvanwart,


I'm not hypersensitive at all and I understand that everyone has a opinion. The problem I have with this thread is that it was started by Midlo Dad to give Tyler some encouragement and to let everyone know that he seemed to have turned the corner and was heading in the right direction. This time last year Tyler and his family were ripped in the media and on various forums, especially here in Maryland. Some of the remarks were so bad that alot of the post had to be removed. Tyler lost his senior year of high school and his freshman year at FSU,not to mention whatever the courts punishment was. Did he deserve most of this, in my opinion yes but remember that he was a 17yr old kid. As P.G said this could be a very good topic,but I believe Tyler's name should be removed. No need to drag his name thru the mud again. Any other 17 yr old that was not well known would have been punished far less. Again I would like to wish Tyler well and hopefully he has learned from this experience.


JMO
Banditsbb

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
If you say he should be allowed to play again, is the roster spot he will take at a JUCO any less important than the roster spot at FSU? Where do you draw the line?

I believe in hope. I believe he second chances. And I believe those that have never needed a second chance that do not understand this will one day when they need one or someone they love does.

Coach, these are two great points.

What should we teach our kids?

1. Misbehavior will be met with punishment.

2. To err is human, to forgive divine -- just don't be a dupe for someone who's trying to con you.

3. Punishments are tailored in proportion to the severity of the offense. Commit even the slightest offense, and you will never again get to have the benefit of the doubt given to those with spotless records. But you do get to put your wrongs behind you, unless they were so severe as to merit lifelong punishment. Possession doesn't fit into that category. Lord knows, if it did, half the population would be in prison or unemployed, and the other half would work all year just to fund the prison and welfare systems. (Oh wait, we already do, right?)

I dont know a coach that talks about making good decisions and the importance of making good decisions any more than me. I was a law enforcement officer for over 20 years before I started coaching on a full time basis. I have seen what one bad decision or one misstep can do to a young life. I have also seen the downward spiral that can beset a young person when they are not given a second chance by society. I also know full well that the people caught vs the people not caught is not even close.

My first day as a 20 year old policeman a wise old cop came in the room and said "Remember this men. Those people you will be chasing down , investigating and arresting are the small percentage of the population that will actually get caught. You are in this room not because you led a perfect life but because you were the ones that were lucky enough not to be caught. The only difference in many cases between that young person you put in handcuffs and yourself is when you were a young lad you were lucky enough to not get caught."

Compassion and understanding must be our first course of action. We must try to rebuild the self esteem of these young people and hope that the experience is one that has taught them a valuble lesson and help them make good decisions in the future. We should not throw them under the bus and write them off as a failure. Too many people will do that already. There has to be people out there with compassion in their hearts and understand that its more important to save a life than it is to take one away.

Its too easy to say "He's done." **** folks 17 years old. Some of you act as if you are perfect and your kids are perfect. I see no difference in getting caught and not getting caught. Both are still guilty. But only one pays in the publics eyes. Compassion and understanding and the desire to assist them in the reconstruction of their life is way more uplifting than throwing them out with the trash and writing them off.

This kid wasn't punished in the slightest bit. He got caught red handed with

1. odor of marijuana in his car
2. marijuana on his person
3. marijuana in the back of his car
4. the marijuana in the back of his car in nice little bags (i.e. intent to distribute
5. to top it all off, a nice pocket scale along with the pot

This kid should have got a felony charge and faced serious prison time.

All this story shows, is that time and time again, if you can play, you will find a team that will let you.

He wasnt punished at all? So if he was not a baseball player how would the punishment have been different?

If he was not a high profile baseball player would anyone be talking about it a year later on any message boards?

Would you be talking about it if he were not a baseball player?

I curious what do you think the punishment should have been?
Do you think he should be banned from playing college baseball for life? And do you think he should never get a second chance? Im curious about the answers to these questions.

It is interesting that, while I try to discuss the topic completely away from Tyler Hibbs, those who want to keep the discussion away from Tyler Hibbs keep bringing it back to him. Why? For the record:

--What TCW wrote was correct, plus
--If I am not mistaken, he was 18 at the time, and
--He had two minors in the vehicle with him.

Also, for the record:

--I wrote that I wanted this discussion to be about the bigger issues (e.g., When do we let a player who disobeys the law and the rules get a second chance at the expense of giving a kid who did not disobey the law or the rules a first chance? Is that a function purely of talent? Do the speeches our coaches give mean anything at all? Is there integrity anywhere in this arena if we do this?)

--I wrote that I am all for second chances.

--I wished Tyler Hibbs 100% success forevermore.

I made the mistake of thinking we could discuss the larger issues brought about by the Hibbs case with some sort of reasonableness. It appears we cannot. Too many emotions remain present in this particular case. Now, let's disregard the question of Tyler Hibbs altogether. Let's just repeat: Congratulations to Tyler Hibbs and good luck. Period.

isaac,

You have made some very good points. My biggest problem is that all of this simply features one individual. That may not have been your purpose in bringing up these points, but it is hard to ignore the individual if one looks at the title of this thread.

Read your first post.
You can not say you are for second chances and then say something is wrong when a kid gets a second chance.

Again what do you think should have happened? So he should not be allowed to attend FSU. Ok. Then where should he be allowed to play in college if you are for second chances? And if you say he should be allowed to play somewhere else , is he still not taking a roster spot at that school? Why is that roster spot any less valuable than the one he will be taking at FSU?

Coach May--THAT is precisely the set of questions that needs to be asked. Let's remove Tyler Hibbs altogether from the discussion. Let's take a hypothetical situation:

(1) Player A is a PG10 and surefire DivI stud and likely MLB first rounder. In the middle of his senior season, he breaks into a computer store and steals a laptop and IPod. He is caught and convicted, but gets a suspended sentence. USC Arizona is his top college choice.

(2) Player B is a PG9 and projects to be an exceptional DivI player. A low round MLB prospect. He does not get into any trouble. He also likes USC, but USC's last 75% scholarship offer is on Player A's table.

Once Player A is convicted, and sentenced, albeit to a suspended sentence, USC. Let's add that all other major Div I colleges of interest to these two players are tapped out wrt money and playing opportunity. There is one scholarship available--and only one player can get it.

--Which player gets the scholarship? Why?

The point is that Player A and Player B have both known, from the beginning of their playing careers, that there are rules and laws that must be obeyed and respected. They have both been told countless times that "there will be consequences" for violations.

My view is that Player B should get the opportunity, even if somewhat less talented, because he obeyed the rules and laws and respected the game and his teammates and his coaches. Player A's second chance should not come at the expense of Player B. Does Player B deserve a second chance? Sure, but only if one is available without hurting a kid who obeyed those rules we all preached with such conviction. My view is that if you give the opportunity to Player A, you are telling all of your players--all of them--to disregard what you say about respecting the rules, the laws, and the game.

By the way, the value of roster spots is relative. Most kids will value a roster spot on USC above a roster spot at, for example, Hicksville Junior College. Not all roster spots are created equal. Do I relegate Player A to the last roster spot left when all the players who obeyed the rules and respected the game have found a spot? Hmmm . . . Maybe. And maybe that is the RIGHT thing? He gets his SECOND chance once all the other players get their FIRST chance. What, may I ask, is wrong with that?

This stuff is a zero sum game. There are a limited number of spots for a lot of players--more than can be accommodated. It is like Musical Chairs. Don't be without a chair when the music stops playing. In the hypothetical, maybe, because he had a chair and then broke the rules, Player A should not get another chair until the other players have a chance to sit down.

isaac,

Right or wrong, welcome to the real world. It's happening all around.

isaac - I am going to ask you to let this go. At one point I thought that maybe you had a point but now I can see you don't.

Your formula does not allow for second chances. It requires all other players to be given a chance first which by definition precludes the hypothetical player from ever getting a chance.

Your faulty logic applies to any situation. Someone who applies for a job will be taking a job from somone else who applies for the same job. According to your logic, the hypothetical person would have to wait in line until all other people in the US had a crack at the job. We would be making these people permanent wards of the states if we did that. Nonsense.

Exactly CD.