<disconnected cell phone>
Hey guys! She so thrilled I'm on the HGH she speechless!
The hearing today was a waste of time and money. All it did was paint the government into a corner they can't get out of.
Did they hurt Clemens and his credibility? Yes they did.
Did they hurt McNamee and his credibility? Yes they did.
You could tell which Congressman was for Clemons, who was for McNamee and which had no idea who to believe - doesn't that pretty much represent the entire country? There is a large part of the country who believes Clemens, large part who believes McNamee and large group who have no idea who to believe. Look at the posts in here - they fall into those groups as well.
The hearing was a waste because I don't think it was a time for them to bring in their personal opinions - the guy from Indiana had no right calling out McNamee and the chairman was out of line apologizing to McNamee for the criticisms towards his character. The purpose is to find out information which they really didn't do.
Now here is where they are in trouble - Mitchell said to NOT go after anyone. Let the past be in the past and fix the future. Great advice but Clemons filed the libel suit and Congress stepped in when they should have stayed out.
It's obvious one of them is lying - doesn't matter which one - and they have lied to Congress. The entire country knows one of them lied to Congress. Now do they let it go and not file perjury charges or do they try to find someone guilty? There were six FBI and IRS agents there today trying to determine what to do.
If they file perjury charges they will lose. Doesn't matter who they file against - Clemons or McNamee - they can't prove either one is lying. Remember to get a conviction it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. So we are looking at around 2/3 of the jury saying guilty. It's not going to happen. The jury will be split down the middle just like we are in here and in the rest of the country. Clemons still has the celebrity card. Although he took a hit today there are still fans out there and some will be in the jury box.
If charges are filed the Justice Department will file against Clemons because McNamee is their boy. Clemons has the most to lose here and they can control McNamee.
If the Justice Department doesn't file charges now they lose face because they are letting a liar get away scotfree with no challenge. If the government wants to save face here they have to file charges or they look bad. It will create a situation where other people will find it easier to lie to Congress during hearings.
There is no winner here and baseball is the biggest loser. The past is the past and you cannot change it. Our records are tainted because the people in charge let it be. But this is also becoming a bigger deal than it should be. Fix the problem and move on.
Rodney Harrison was suspended several games for testing positive for steroids. Is he before Congress? Is Roger Goddall or Paul Tagliabue in front of Congress (for this and not Spygate - don't get me started on this one)?
Did they hurt Clemens and his credibility? Yes they did.
Did they hurt McNamee and his credibility? Yes they did.
You could tell which Congressman was for Clemons, who was for McNamee and which had no idea who to believe - doesn't that pretty much represent the entire country? There is a large part of the country who believes Clemens, large part who believes McNamee and large group who have no idea who to believe. Look at the posts in here - they fall into those groups as well.
The hearing was a waste because I don't think it was a time for them to bring in their personal opinions - the guy from Indiana had no right calling out McNamee and the chairman was out of line apologizing to McNamee for the criticisms towards his character. The purpose is to find out information which they really didn't do.
Now here is where they are in trouble - Mitchell said to NOT go after anyone. Let the past be in the past and fix the future. Great advice but Clemons filed the libel suit and Congress stepped in when they should have stayed out.
It's obvious one of them is lying - doesn't matter which one - and they have lied to Congress. The entire country knows one of them lied to Congress. Now do they let it go and not file perjury charges or do they try to find someone guilty? There were six FBI and IRS agents there today trying to determine what to do.
If they file perjury charges they will lose. Doesn't matter who they file against - Clemons or McNamee - they can't prove either one is lying. Remember to get a conviction it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. So we are looking at around 2/3 of the jury saying guilty. It's not going to happen. The jury will be split down the middle just like we are in here and in the rest of the country. Clemons still has the celebrity card. Although he took a hit today there are still fans out there and some will be in the jury box.
If charges are filed the Justice Department will file against Clemons because McNamee is their boy. Clemons has the most to lose here and they can control McNamee.
If the Justice Department doesn't file charges now they lose face because they are letting a liar get away scotfree with no challenge. If the government wants to save face here they have to file charges or they look bad. It will create a situation where other people will find it easier to lie to Congress during hearings.
There is no winner here and baseball is the biggest loser. The past is the past and you cannot change it. Our records are tainted because the people in charge let it be. But this is also becoming a bigger deal than it should be. Fix the problem and move on.
Rodney Harrison was suspended several games for testing positive for steroids. Is he before Congress? Is Roger Goddall or Paul Tagliabue in front of Congress (for this and not Spygate - don't get me started on this one)?
I've traveled a convoluted road on this issue.
When I first saw the "Bash Brothers" I was convinced that they were doing steroids.....as far back as the mid- eighties.
Others of their company looked similarly "enhanced".
Nobody seemed to care.
Next came the freak show of the later 90's. The McGuire-Sosa show and then Bary Bonds. The increase in production streched credulity and Bonds, being the likable guy he is bought the public scrutiny that eventually jaded everyone.
In the mean time the seats are filled...money coming in, popularity on the rise, the owners and the management all but embraced the new standards of performance. In doing so they set the standard for the profession and compelled large numbers of the players to keep up.
Now I always have admired Clemens' work ethic. In many ways he took no short cuts. But did he fall into temptation by what had become a pervasive aspect of the pro game?
Bonds too is a gifted athlete, and a hard worker but his legacy is forever tainted by the steps he took to get ahead...or, maybe in his own mind to keep up.
The greatest blame goes, not to the athletes that strived to compete in the culture of the game they inherited, but to those whose negligence in oversite made it happen.
I am now truly sad for Roger, McGuire and even, dare I say it, Bonds.
Rollerman
it was on espn that pettites dad got the hgh for him. i don't know if this is a fact,if it is it's a sad day for that family. sad day for quite a few family's. the things we do for money.............
Bonds is...a liar.
McNamee is... a liar.
Clemens is... a liar.
For all the money two of these three have, and all the legal counsel all three seem to have, they miss a big truism: "If you're explaining, you're losing".
Credible folks don't have to explain what they meant by what they said, or that somebody "misheard" or "misremembered" (send the Rocket to an english class). Clemens came off as a pathetic liar. A guy sticks a needle in his wife's rear and he doesn't know it?? And they never discussed it? A show of hands please, how many married folks believe that? Oh, Mr. Bonds, put your hand down, I meant faithfully married, sorry.
Bonds talked (lied) himself into a corner and the lesson was apparently lost on the Rocket as he has done the same thing. Game over.
Pettitte cheated, and admitted it only when hit in the head with the Mitchell report, but better late than never. (See Giambi, Jason).
Barry and the Rocket are where they belong, on the outside looking in. Their chance to fess up and be forgiven (see Pettitte, Andy) passed them by long ago.
McNamee is... a liar.
Clemens is... a liar.
For all the money two of these three have, and all the legal counsel all three seem to have, they miss a big truism: "If you're explaining, you're losing".
Credible folks don't have to explain what they meant by what they said, or that somebody "misheard" or "misremembered" (send the Rocket to an english class). Clemens came off as a pathetic liar. A guy sticks a needle in his wife's rear and he doesn't know it?? And they never discussed it? A show of hands please, how many married folks believe that? Oh, Mr. Bonds, put your hand down, I meant faithfully married, sorry.
Bonds talked (lied) himself into a corner and the lesson was apparently lost on the Rocket as he has done the same thing. Game over.
Pettitte cheated, and admitted it only when hit in the head with the Mitchell report, but better late than never. (See Giambi, Jason).
Barry and the Rocket are where they belong, on the outside looking in. Their chance to fess up and be forgiven (see Pettitte, Andy) passed them by long ago.
I probably wouldn't have watched if hubby hadn't had it on, but my take is that Mc is a scumbag, but I think he's telling the truth about injecting players and he probably has the forensic proof. He was careful about keeping it because he knew what was happening was wrong and he didn't want to go down alone when the poop hit the fan. Hey, his cop training came in handy afterall. He's looking to salvage his freedom and reverse the damage done by his initial cover-up lies.
Clem's pants are seriously on fire--what a liar, liar. I truly understand the strong desire to save face, but a sudden about-face in career at the age of 35 looks very suspicious. He just suddenly hit his stride at what appeared to be the end of his career? Lying to congress is a very bad move if you want your freedom. (Talk to Vick about the consequences of lying under oath.) He's already lied, so now he's not going to back down until they charge him with perjury. Even then I suspect he'll kick and scream his way to trial and then to jail.
I think those who've gone ahead and told the truth will be demonized and shunned for revealing the "secret" but that's better than meaningless cover-ups, lame excuses, and eventual jail time for being a liar. Roids were obviously a part of the game, acceptable among players. Why not just say you got caught up in the wrong stuff, sorry, and move on and change what is NOW acceptable? I'll be just as happy to watch a game that's "clean" as I was to watch a collection of super human roid-monsters.
IMO: Friends don't make friends commit perjury. Friends don't expect friends to face jail-time in order to cover your butt and preserve the value of your signed memorabilia and speaking fee. It takes a lot of courage to tell the truth, especially knowing you'll likely become a pariah. I respect that level of courage more than I respect misplaced indignation.
Clem's pants are seriously on fire--what a liar, liar. I truly understand the strong desire to save face, but a sudden about-face in career at the age of 35 looks very suspicious. He just suddenly hit his stride at what appeared to be the end of his career? Lying to congress is a very bad move if you want your freedom. (Talk to Vick about the consequences of lying under oath.) He's already lied, so now he's not going to back down until they charge him with perjury. Even then I suspect he'll kick and scream his way to trial and then to jail.
I think those who've gone ahead and told the truth will be demonized and shunned for revealing the "secret" but that's better than meaningless cover-ups, lame excuses, and eventual jail time for being a liar. Roids were obviously a part of the game, acceptable among players. Why not just say you got caught up in the wrong stuff, sorry, and move on and change what is NOW acceptable? I'll be just as happy to watch a game that's "clean" as I was to watch a collection of super human roid-monsters.
IMO: Friends don't make friends commit perjury. Friends don't expect friends to face jail-time in order to cover your butt and preserve the value of your signed memorabilia and speaking fee. It takes a lot of courage to tell the truth, especially knowing you'll likely become a pariah. I respect that level of courage more than I respect misplaced indignation.
If Roger was my buddy I think I'd have to say, "Well Rog, you gotta admit it's not a very far leap for us to believe you took the ped's... you'll take Vioxx like Skittles, you'll take Lydocain and B-12 in order to compete; that in itself doesn't mean you'd take the PED's, but that coupled with the evidence presented by your enemy and friend tells me you think I'm pretty naive and I'll believe you because you have a good fastball I guess."
Good post.
Mitchell asked that no player mentioned be subject to legal action, which I hope the Feds respect. We don't need all of this, it's basically out in the open and let's move forward.
As far as Clemens, he wanted the court of public opinion to decide, and it didn't go well. If I was him, basically at this point, it's time to retire, go out and play golf, and let the chips fall where they may as far as his HOF futuer is concerned.
Mitchell asked that no player mentioned be subject to legal action, which I hope the Feds respect. We don't need all of this, it's basically out in the open and let's move forward.
As far as Clemens, he wanted the court of public opinion to decide, and it didn't go well. If I was him, basically at this point, it's time to retire, go out and play golf, and let the chips fall where they may as far as his HOF futuer is concerned.
The business model for dealing with the situation was trademarked by Pettitte.
"I did a dumb thing. I'm sorry."
End of story.
If he truly doesn't give a rats hind quarters about HOF as he says, he would have done the same. Instead, he jumped in a hole with a shovel and buried himself.
"I did a dumb thing. I'm sorry."
End of story.
If he truly doesn't give a rats hind quarters about HOF as he says, he would have done the same. Instead, he jumped in a hole with a shovel and buried himself.
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
"I did a dumb thing. I'm sorry."
I can accept that explanation from anyone because they owned up.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
"I did a dumb thing. I'm sorry."
I can accept that explanation from anyone because they owned up.
Wait a minute ... am I to understand that apologies are now acceptable here?
All kidding aside, I just think this is such a sad commentary on our favorite game, as well as our society and the 'win at any cost' attitudes so many bear now. Money talks, and from my perspective, it speaks too loud and has taken a lot away from the game itself. (NOTE TO ALL: Remind me of that statement if/when my kid ever signs a big contract
I am sorry to say that although I have always admired Clemens' abilities on the mound, I found his testimony a bit difficult to believe yesterday, even tho I also believe McNamee was lying as well. Sad sad indeed, but I still do not think Congress should be involved at this level when so many things are falling apart in our country. I would much rather have seen the $$$$ spent on these hearings going to help disabled vets or the starving children in Appalachia. Waste of my tax dollars from my perspective.
I have no issue with any $$ spent on the Mitchell report, the following congressional drama was because Roger wanted to clear himself.
Make him pay?
I am glad you got the apology part. Apologizing is taking ownership, whether you feel the need or not, says alot about a person, IMO.
Make him pay?
I am glad you got the apology part. Apologizing is taking ownership, whether you feel the need or not, says alot about a person, IMO.
DAD04
Keep posting as you do--your true colors are showing
Keep posting as you do--your true colors are showing
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
... the following congressional drama was because Roger wanted to clear himself.
I hear ya !
quote:Make him pay?
Now that's an idea ...
things keep bugging me. do you think roger clemens ever paid for golf ? yet he had a reciept from 98. i don't even have the same clubs from 98. regardless of how this plays out he hasn't got to worry about money,or fame. just isn't well thought of for a while.
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
things keep bugging me. do you think roger clemens ever paid for golf ? yet he had a reciept from 98. i don't even have the same clubs from 98. regardless of how this plays out he hasn't got to worry about money,or fame. just isn't well thought of for a while.
That's a good point and it also leads me to this that these people are trying to remember what happened 10 years ago. I am lucky if I remember what I did last week.
gee I'd like to follow suit, but I have a MGD budgetquote:by RJM: Hey guys! She so thrilled I'm on the HGH she speechless!
(aka - Miller Genuine Draft)
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
things keep bugging me. do you think roger clemens ever paid for golf ? yet he had a reciept from 98. i don't even have the same clubs from 98. regardless of how this plays out he hasn't got to worry about money,or fame. just isn't well thought of for a while.
In 98 he wasn't the rocket. But I got to thinking, who saves a golf receipt for 10 years?
I wonder if it had 98 course fees or 2008? Anyone bother to check that out.
I don't like the confusion, the diversions, from either side. It's not about who lied or who told the truth, it's now a popularity contest and it's not pretty. Pettite not showing up, Clemens taking the focus off of himself and onto wife, McNamee a questionable character who he hung out with.
Glen Beck just mentioned it cost us (the taxpayers) almost a million dollars...so far.
Fox News is reporting tonight the Feds have filed documents showing Barry Bonds tested positive for steroids in 2000.
On and on we go, further down the tubes.
Maybe, just maybe, can MLB finally adopt an Olympic level testing program? Blood, hair, urine, the works? If a player refuses, gone. One and done.
Do we have enough trash flying around to prove the need?
Either that or make it all legal and get CVS and Rite Aid to sponsor the MLB.
Happy Pitchers and Catchers Report Day everyone.
Next year, it'll be pitchers, catchers, pharmacists, lawyers, and CSI's report day.
On and on we go, further down the tubes.
Maybe, just maybe, can MLB finally adopt an Olympic level testing program? Blood, hair, urine, the works? If a player refuses, gone. One and done.
Do we have enough trash flying around to prove the need?
Either that or make it all legal and get CVS and Rite Aid to sponsor the MLB.
Happy Pitchers and Catchers Report Day everyone.
Next year, it'll be pitchers, catchers, pharmacists, lawyers, and CSI's report day.
quote:Maybe, just maybe, can MLB finally adopt an Olympic level testing program? Blood, hair, urine, the works? If a player refuses, gone. One and done.
I mean this is the only issue right now. Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds are beside the issue imho. Lets hear one player start advocating blood testing. That guy is my hero.
tpm
roger has been the rocket since the 80's.but i'm a red sox fan.
roger has been the rocket since the 80's.but i'm a red sox fan.
What I thought was kind of amusing was that everyone kept saying what a stand up guy, honest guy, a guy of the highest integrity, religious guy Andy Petite was! Didn't he use illegal drugs too? Didn't he cheat too? The only difference is that he and Knoblock were dumb enough to admit doing it! If they would have denied it, this whole mess would have been over! When Mitchell said his recommendation was to not punish people for wrong deeds in the past, but to move forward and fix things for the future, that's what should have happened! This report should not have been made public and no names should have been included unless both sides were investigated.
I agree with what Clemens said yesterday, "using HGH or Steroids is a self imposed punishment." I think it's a stupid thing to do just like taking any other illegal drug, but BASEBALL should have taken care of the problem long ago and should now. The Government has no business sticking their noses in this situation. As long as we have 12 million people in this country defying our laws to become legal citizens and the Executive Branch sits by and does nothing, this incident is small potatoes!
I agree with what Clemens said yesterday, "using HGH or Steroids is a self imposed punishment." I think it's a stupid thing to do just like taking any other illegal drug, but BASEBALL should have taken care of the problem long ago and should now. The Government has no business sticking their noses in this situation. As long as we have 12 million people in this country defying our laws to become legal citizens and the Executive Branch sits by and does nothing, this incident is small potatoes!
quote:Originally posted by hokieone:
Fox News is reporting tonight the Feds have filed documents showing Barry Bonds tested positive for steroids in 2000.
And I was holding out hope
Sometimes all this is just worth a chuckle among all the sadness. I mean, we are to believe that Roger didn't know that McNamee gave his wife a shot of HGH in the butt in his master suite of his mansion. The bizarre gets more bizarre. That story was made up by Rusty Hardin because they knew there was new proof his wife took HGH. This is AFTER Roger denied his wife took HGH. My head is spinning after reading some of these congressional documents.
Several thoughts and observations and questions
1. If someone can guarantee this congressional hearing stuff can guarantee that in the future it will stop 95% of college, high school or youth league players from using steroids or HGH then let's go on with it. If it's not going to lead to any real change then let's drop it.
Also, this is not my idea. I got this from another thread and I think Trojan Skipper said it about helping kids - if I have given the credit to the wrong person then I apologize.
2. They are all liars and cheats. How in the world can we really tell who is the most truthful person talking?
3. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't steroids and HGH illegal to use, possess, sell or administer without having a real live from a real college / univeristy doctor administer it? Since McNamee has admitted to giving steroids why isn't he being arrested for breaking the law? Why isn't Pettite and Knoblauch being arrested for taking an illegal substance?
Just becaust it wasn't banned by MLB doesn't mean it's not against the law. MLB rules don't trump federal, state or local laws.
4. Nobody is going to jail. The physical evidence is not strong enough to convict anyone. Seriously gauze, needles from 8 years ago, a golf receipt from 10 years ago is not that credible. The people who would be testifying have lied on several occasions and have some sort of shady pasts.
1. If someone can guarantee this congressional hearing stuff can guarantee that in the future it will stop 95% of college, high school or youth league players from using steroids or HGH then let's go on with it. If it's not going to lead to any real change then let's drop it.
Also, this is not my idea. I got this from another thread and I think Trojan Skipper said it about helping kids - if I have given the credit to the wrong person then I apologize.
2. They are all liars and cheats. How in the world can we really tell who is the most truthful person talking?
3. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't steroids and HGH illegal to use, possess, sell or administer without having a real live from a real college / univeristy doctor administer it? Since McNamee has admitted to giving steroids why isn't he being arrested for breaking the law? Why isn't Pettite and Knoblauch being arrested for taking an illegal substance?
Just becaust it wasn't banned by MLB doesn't mean it's not against the law. MLB rules don't trump federal, state or local laws.
4. Nobody is going to jail. The physical evidence is not strong enough to convict anyone. Seriously gauze, needles from 8 years ago, a golf receipt from 10 years ago is not that credible. The people who would be testifying have lied on several occasions and have some sort of shady pasts.
quote:4. Nobody is going to jail. The physical evidence is not strong enough to convict anyone. Seriously gauze, needles from 8 years ago, a golf receipt from 10 years ago is not that credible. The people who would be testifying have lied on several occasions and have some sort of shady pasts.
The evidence is not important in this situation. McNamee only brought that forward AFTER the "Clemens team" chose to air the taped conversation on national TV which ticked of McNamee because of his son's medical condition.
The evidence, in my eyes, doesn't mean a thing and will probably never ever see the light of day. It's too old. McNamee would not have a chance of getting that admitted in a court of law.
I don't think this will get that far anyway. It's obvious that Clemens took HGH and I think this can just die where it is. No need for more tax dollars spent on this. Clemens and McNamee were made to look pretty foolish. No need to drag this out more. HGH/Steroids were very prevalent for a period of time and that's a fact. It was too easy to get and too easy to reap the rewards of recovery and strength from the drugs. Clemens "secret" is now out and we all know something took place.
I watched the hearing from start to finish and Clemens did not come off as very intellectual. He had several prepared answers that he gave regardless of the question. He was not sure of himself whenever he got forced into a corner but his lawyers were right there to help him.
On the other hand, McNamee never seemed to have to think about his answers. Despite his record of lying, he seemed to me to be answering the questions without hesitation, which is easier to do when telling the truth.
Of course, McNamee is a proven liar and a good one, but Clemen's didn't seem to have the candor of an honest man.
The one annoying part of the hearings for me was the Pedestal the Pettitte was placed on. He's just another liar and cheat who hides behind God.
First Pettitte denied taking steroids or HGH, then when they had proof of a couple of injections he broke down and confessed to taking HGH for just two days. He also said how sorry he was. Then we find out he admits to more usage when placed under oath. Then he tells the court he has to answer to God. Give me a break, why wasn't he answering to God from the beginning.
In my opinion, Pettitte has ZERO credibility.
Also, Pettitte's wife gave meaningless testimony since she offered nothing except to repeat what her husband told her.
Bottom line, Clemen's did not prove his innocence(not that he could have) but he also did not present himself as the more believable man.
On the other hand, McNamee never seemed to have to think about his answers. Despite his record of lying, he seemed to me to be answering the questions without hesitation, which is easier to do when telling the truth.
Of course, McNamee is a proven liar and a good one, but Clemen's didn't seem to have the candor of an honest man.
The one annoying part of the hearings for me was the Pedestal the Pettitte was placed on. He's just another liar and cheat who hides behind God.
First Pettitte denied taking steroids or HGH, then when they had proof of a couple of injections he broke down and confessed to taking HGH for just two days. He also said how sorry he was. Then we find out he admits to more usage when placed under oath. Then he tells the court he has to answer to God. Give me a break, why wasn't he answering to God from the beginning.
In my opinion, Pettitte has ZERO credibility.
Also, Pettitte's wife gave meaningless testimony since she offered nothing except to repeat what her husband told her.
Bottom line, Clemen's did not prove his innocence(not that he could have) but he also did not present himself as the more believable man.
quote:What do you think about Roger Clemens?
Again, the list of users and abusers will end up larger than the non-users.....
MOVE ON