What is the top hand's role in the swing?

The top hand is important to keep control of the bathead, to stay long through the ball, and if you have a great top hand, it allows for more power.

without an active top hand/rear arm, you'll have a bat that drags through the zone.

As the rear arm slots downward, it sets the position for the hands to rotate the barrel to the ball. Without an active top hand/rear arm, it is just being pulled through the zone by the front arm/front shoulder.

The rear arm movement up/down allows the batter to fill time and keep momentum when looking for one pitch (fastball/middle in) and getting something different (off speed/middle out).

I am not sure how usefull that would be as a cue if he isn't giving some instruction with it in practice.IMO,just saying be a top hand hitter would be little help.BUT,if he explains and teaches what he means in practice and uses it as a reminder,I can see it being a beneficial cue.

The above have given good explanations as to what the top hand does.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
I am not sure how usefull that would be as a cue if he isn't giving some instruction with it in practice.IMO,just saying be a top hand hitter would be little help.BUT,if he explains and teaches what he means in practice and uses it as a reminder,I can see it being a beneficial cue.

The above have given good explanations as to what the top hand does.

I agree that you have to be taught well or the top hand can be detrimental because if you use too much top hand or use it too early you will begin rolling over balls, not being able to hit curveballs, etc.

The top hand cue helps a batter swing hands to the ball. Think of the motion as a forehand swing. Palm to the ball.

Leading with the bottom hand would create a backhand swing. Backhand to the ball.

The backhand swing is instinctively used by players experimenting with switch hitting.

quote:

Originally posted by INshocker:
if you use too much top hand or use it too early you will begin rolling over balls

I have to challenge that wisdom.

Jack Mankin documents that premature rollover of the top wrist occurs because the elbow of the lead arm is too low.

Try this experiment. Make sure your lead-arm action is correct and take a full cut ... try your hardest to rollover your top wrist at contact. At full speed you'll find that as long as your lead-elbow is not too low that you'll resist premature wrist rollover without effort.

Too much talk about the hands and arms in the swing. The most important piece of the swing is the pivot and the hitter's lower half is the key to his hands.

All hitters have some degree of "push" in their pivot(rear leg). The greater the degree of push, the more the front side opens up and the hands are affected accordingly. By focusing on hands/arms/elbows etc., you are chasing symptoms of the problem instead of the cause. The legs should be tight, rear end out, back straight, knees slightly bent and slightly pointed together, keeping the tension between the knees like holding a ball, seperate (load), keeping your weight at approximately 50f/50r and let your pivot take your hands to the ball while hitting off a stiff front leg, staying square, with the front foot staying closed, not opening up until after contact and only as part of the deceleration phase.

While it is true what was said about the front elbow and it's effect on the hands rolling over, the main reason to keep the front elbow up is so that your hands can clear through the zone and "unfold" without having to open the front side. This keeps the swing linear. Push in the pivot leg causes a rotational process. Always, always, always, stay linear with the pivot leg acting like the scope of a rifle.

In what part of the lower body do you hold the bat?

Looks like this would be some video.

It is.......you should buy it. It called the "Five Simple Steps" by Rudy Jaramillo. (I know he's probably not in your league but he's a hitting instructor with some proven success.)

No post or written statement could explain the fundamentals of the swing. I attempted to give a summary of the basis for a complete swing with the emphasis on the lower half. Quincy, I have read many posts by you and the others on this site who have a great understanding of what a proper swing should look like. However, you cannot teach the swing like you say because you are focusing on the symptoms of the problems and not the causes.

How many MVP's, silver slugger award winners and MLB batting champions have you produced with your methods?

4egenball: Just drop it...it will go on forever.

4genball,I agree it all starts down low.When my son starts hitting ground balls in bp,I have to remind him to hit with his hips and legs instead of with his hands.It almost always results in hard line shots in the air to the outfield.My son is one of those that will make an immediate adjustment on cue when asked,his hitting instructor told me he has never seen a young 8-9 year old do that theway he does.


I do agree that the lead elbow being up is crucial but it does seem to naturally happen when the hips,legs and core are being used to drive the ball.

BUT,hands are important too.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The backhand swing is instinctively used by players experimenting with switch hitting.

Thank you Quincy! You just made me realize something I didn't think about. I'm working with my son on switch hitting and that is EXACTLY what he was doing. I stopped everything and just had him work one-hand top-hand drills for the otherside...and his progress has really jumped way ahead. Thank you.

The point I was making is that the lower body has no place in a discussion of the role of the top hand in hitting.

A thread based on the lower body or the entire swing would be the place to interject such beliefs and practices.

Lesterclan,

I leaned that from an old timer. I'll relay your thanks to him. Glad it helped.

quote:

Originally posted by 4genball:
the main reason to keep the front elbow up is so that your hands can clear through the zone and "unfold" without having to open the front side.

Could you please eplain this in greater detail?

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The point I was making is that the lower body has no place in a discussion of the role of the top hand in hitting.

A thread based on the lower body or the entire swing would be the place to interject such beliefs and practices.

Probably not in "your" discussions as you abviously do not undertand the biomechanics of the swing.

The fact that you made the statement "the lower body has no place in a discussion of the role of the top hand in hitting" shows how uniformed and "little league" you are.

Everything about the swing starts and ends with the lower half....but I understand why you think the way you do....you are a symptoms guy like most all self professed "hitting instructors".

Also, I didn't realize you were the new "thread category" monitor. Did you get a corner office with your new position?

Okay Speedy, explain to the board what effect the lower body has in the role of the top hand in hitting.

Is it reeally too much to maintain a thread that does not meander from the title or question proposed?

Go back and read your book written by a guy who couldn't hit well enough to last in the game.

By the way, all the guys who played for Texas while he just happened to be there learned their trade before they ever met him.

Quincy,

If you want to get the training you so obviously need, go to www.leaguelineup.com/jbbc. You can contact one of the Jaramillo staff and they can hook you up.

Any thread that discusses hitting should give the right information and "symptom resolution" is not proper instruction. Amateur hitting instructors do not realize how much damage can be done to a young hitter by telling them things that will always produce bad habits. As an instructor, it is critical that you teach the student how to be his own coach. You do this by giving him an understanding of the root cause of his hitting problems, current and future. (After all Quincy, the hitter can't stop in the middle of the game and PM you to find out what they are doing wrong).

The lower half drives the hands and 90% of the problems with the hands stem from poor lower body mechanics. If you focus on the proper technique in your lower half, (the proper pivot/closed front side/square to the plate) the natural "hand/eye" ability of the athlete will take care of itself.

Regarding Rudy Jaramillo, once again you are obviously misinformed so you should go back and check your facts. Every other hitting coach in the history of Major League baseball has had players that had already "learned their trade" but they didn't produce hitters like Mr. Jaramillo. He will also be the only hitting instuctor ever inducted to the MLB Hall of Fame. His nephew Aaron runs the Jaramillo Baseball Club in Ft. Worth, Texas. Go to the web site above and see what success the "Jaramillo" has on hitters that haven't already "learned their trade". When you can take boys 14 - 15 years old and have them beating 18 year old teams with pitchers throwing in the mid to upper 80's with off speed, you must be doing something right. I have personally witnessed over the last two years, the transformation of over twenty five young men into polished, disciplined and productive hitters that make "mid at-bat" adjustments during the heat of the game.

Good bye Quincy.

quote:

All hitters have some degree of "push" in their pivot(rear leg).

quote:

The most important piece of the swing is the pivot and the hitter's lower half is the key to his hands.

4genball, can a hitter PUSH and PIVOT with their rear leg if their rear foot is in the air and being dragged forward like this Willie Mays swing?

You are correct. Many major leaguers don't do it correctly. The hip "should" open and the body rotate at contact, not before. If you broke down these swings, you would see that they are all doing it, just not perfectly and the hand eye coordination of a Major League hitter is incredible. This along with other elite athletic skills are compensatory.

Notice the head movement in each of these swings. If you push, your head moves forward and this speeds the ball up. Not an optimal process, agreed? Also check out two of the greatest of all time. Bonds and Manny.

quote:

The hip "should" open and the body rotate at contact, not before. If you broke down these swings, you would see that they are all doing it....

4genball, is this what you see Manny and Bonds doing?....I don't....







Also, can we talk about this statement you made?

quote:

While it is true what was said about the front elbow and it's effect on the hands rolling over, the main reason to keep the front elbow up is so that your hands can clear through the zone and "unfold" without having to open the front side.

How can this be true when MLB hitters always open their front side well before the hands come through?

quote:

Originally posted by 4genball:
The lower half drives the hands and 90% of the problems with the hands stem from poor lower body mechanics. If you focus on the proper technique in your lower half, (the proper pivot/closed front side/square to the plate) the natural "hand/eye" ability of the athlete will take care of itself.

Kind of.

If your hands are wrong so will your lower body.

If you lower body is wrong your hands can't do what they need to do.

To 'fnd' the right fit....the right syncage (if that is a word) you must begin with the hands. Their handset and their function. And please do not confuse the hand function with arm function. Arms move the hands. The hands move the barrel.

The hands dominate the system. That is why mlb players constantly discuss the need to have their hands right.

The lower body is slave to the hands. Get the handset right....and the hand function right....and the lower body will respond properly....unless of course you've been taught that the lower body does something that it actually doesn't do.....ie.....stay closed until launch....then you are therefore trying to impose an improper lower body onto a proper handset/usage.....and you won't be happy with your results.

They both are important. They both can interrupt the success of the other. Once you are sure what is supposed to happen by each....the hands will control the process.

Give the hands the proper goal and the lower body will fall in line and help produce it unless there is a concscious attempt to inhibit the lower body or make it do something not 'in line with' what it will do naturally if allowed.

quote:

And please do not confuse the hand function with arm function. Arms move the hands.

And, this is why the proper movement of the front elbow is so very important.......

4genball, I don't know anything about what Rudy teaches.....I have never seen his material......But, I don't see MLB hitters doing what YOU are representing as his teaching......

Do you?

I must say I don't know everything Rudy teaches.

But I'm pretty sure he teaches get the front foot down early.

A clarification is necessary....what does he mean by "down"? Does he mean planted with weight on it?

If so I am very much opposed to that teaching.

The front foot is not weighted until after launch on most swings. The act of swinging weights that foot.

Talk about incoherent buffoonery.

Go back to your guru and show him how you are infecting a message board with your bogus religion.

Does Jarmuke teach that the lower body has a direct effect of role of the top hand in the swing?

Mr. Jaramillo, by studying the most successful hitters in the history of the game, took what they all did and simplified it into five "roots" of success or "the five simple steps" (reverse engineering if you will). He did not invent the perfect swing. He just put it into words and a teaching process. The process I have tried to explain, as I understand it from the Jaramillos, is at the "optimum". No one does it perfectly but the closer you get to the optimum, the more success you have.

Mr. Jaramillo says that Bonds comes closer to the optimum than anyone in the game. Steroids or not, he is arguably the best hitter to ever play.

Now I'm sure every one of you have more skins on the wall than Mr. Jaramillo. So those of you that were/are a MLB hitting instructor, have played in the big's and/or are currently on a major league roster, please send me a PM so we can compare notes.

The rest of you, look at the video of Bonds and Ramirez. Quit looking at the front side. Watch their pivot leg in relation to the hands. Can you not see the pivot knee driving to the ball. Especially Bonds, watch his pivot leg start to go to the ball a split second before his hands start. It is this action of the pivot leg that gets your hands to the ball. You say hitters have to have their "hands right". Do all hitters start their hands from the same place? All their swings are not going to look or be the same with their hands because of pitch location and timing. This is what I was talking about with the natural "hand/eye" ability. Their lower half however, should be the same on evey swing with the pivot acting like the scope of a rifle. The only time you should really see the front side open up early is when they are fooled or their timing is off.

By the way, Aaron Jaramillo, Rudy's nephew, today took a team of 15 year old boys and with wooden bats, pounded out fifteen hits and beat one of the top 16/17 year old travel teams in the State of Texas 9-5. The opposing pitcher, who is one of the top prospects in the State, was consistently 88-90.

You can argue with me but you can't argue with success. However, if any of you are or have been more successful than Rudy, I will humbly apologize, ask your forgiveness, and pay heed to you for all on this site to see.

quote:

The only time you should really see the front side open up early is when they are fooled or their timing is off.

Are you sure Rudy says this stuff?

The front hip HAS to open/clear before there is a path for the hands.

The act of opening the hips is also part of the creation of separation between the upper and lower body. A loading mechanism.

All of this is done LONG before (relatively speaking) the hitter launches his swing.

Yes, the rear knee goes down and in at launch.

But BEFORE that happens, the body loads through separation.....lower body open against a closed upper half.

To deny that is to deny video of the best hitters in the world. I don't care what your name is.

The lower body works like the people mover at the airport. From the moment you pick up your front foot you push lightly with the rear foot which creates forward momentum and that, accompanied by the rear hip push against the ball & socket joint...causes the hips begin to open. This happens in all swings at the same time, in the same rhythm, as soon as you lift the front foot, based on the each hitters ability to "dance" with the pitcher. This MUST happen all the time. It is the lower body running start. It clears the hips...it creates a hand path...it's involved in loading the system. (Yes....the hips opening early is actually loading....not unloading.)

Once your lower body 'people mover' is in place you 'step onto it' when you launch and your upper body gets a HUGE boost from that just as you get a big boost when you step on the people mover at the airport.

See the Bonds clip above.

This puts the upper body in control....how you use the hands and arms controls the system....and how you use the hands and arms creates a 'launch window' which is how hitters learn to adjust to pitch speed.

Any attempt to keep the hips closed....or to pause the lower body AFTER you've picked up the lead foot will ruin the hitter.

More lives than a cat.

After reading all this it was interesting to hear Pete Rose this morning---he said keep it simple---do not complicate matters---see it--hit it---think about driving it thru the pitcher

I fully agree---all the gurus, claymation images etc mean nothing---kids do not undertstand all that jibberish ---keep it simple

Also keep in mind that all the great hitters have God given abilities that the normal good player does not so you cannot emulate them

That is why the Jaramillos are such great teachers. They teach the swing in "5 SIMPLE steps" and that was my point from the begining of this thread. This thread is supposed to be about "teaching" and I was trying to speak to the best "teaching method".

The original question, and probably 99.9% of all questions I've seen on this site come from parents of young players who are trying to help their baller improve. All the talk of hands/hips/rotate/foot down early/ etc. is all too complicated for a young mind to grasp and cannot be taught correctly by the average dad. It is also focusing on the front side which is like putting the cart before the horse.

While I do agree with a lot of what was said, (even by Quincy) (based on my understanding of the Jaramillos' teachings of the biomechanics of the swing) all those points are end results of the process and you cannot effectively teach it that way. If you can get the hitter to focus on letting his "true pivot" take his hands to the ball, you will have a simplified teaching process which is easy to understand, and again, the natural hand/eye/timing/hip rotation/follow through will all take care of itself. Bonds talks about "2 feet to the ball". The swing is started and finished within a 2 foot area. Everything after contact is really deceleration which is meaningless because it has no effect on the batted ball. So with that being true, teach the "linear" process from the start(seperation)to the finish(contact)using the backside not the frontside as the driver.

Nothing wrong with simplifying.

But please......type something that matches video of the best so you can say looky here...when you go to the video to demonstrate to them what you mean.

One little clip....the Bonds clip above....disproves much of what you've said.

You only see it the way you want to, which is backwards. Like TRhit said, you cannot try and emulate the MLB swing. These athletes are the most gifted in all of sports.

For you to say the front hip has to open/clear before there is a path for the hands is ridiculous. Are you saying the hips have to open up to hit the outside pitch? If you let the ball get deep and "square it up", the hands only travel approx. 2 feet, from seperation to contact. The hips open because the hands are coming through after contact. The top hand and pivot should drive to the ball at the same time. If you try to teach the top hand, the student will end up rolling over the ball and pulling everything. If you teach it the way you say, with the hips opening first, the result is a flying open hip and the inability to hit the outside pitch. You must stay square!! You cannot stay square if the first motion in your swing is to open up the front side. It's obviously too complicated of a concept for the average person to grasp. That's why Mr. Jaramillo is the highest paid hitting instructor in the history of baseball and the only one that will be inducted into the baseball hall of fame.

This thread is done from my end. It's like trying to explain to a blind man what the color pink looks like.

Nothing you wrote matches the video.



Front side opens LONG before launch and yet he stays square.

Study up.

Front hip opens...stretch created between upper and lower body.....stretch and fire launch.

Your 'hips stay square' is simply not done. And has nothing to do with hitting the outside pitch. The lead leg/hip must get out of the way so the swing can be executed.

You have at least one thing right....the rear hip/leg/knee action is very important. In fact, watch the rear hip come up and through as your rear knee goes to the ball. This hip action can not happen unless there is 1) a good load in the rear hip and 2) the lead leg/hip has gotten out of the way.

For you to understand the swing you have to first recognize/determine the 'go' frame....and the position they are in at 'go'.....the position from which they launch...their position at commitment.

Then watch the frames before 'go'. You will see the loading/opening of the lower body against the closed upper body.

It amazes me how people will teach separation in throwing but avoid it in hitting. They are quite sure the shoulders back and the hips open is THE way in throwing yet insist that the hip must stay closed....that the hitter must stay square.....in hitting.

You have all the time you need (with practice) to learn how to use the 'wait' time to get yourself loaded/separated.....so that you can launch and spend immediately at 'go'.

An absolute for the quickest launch possible is separation.....stretch between the upper and lower body. You can not separate AND keep the hips square.

Square is not bad.....it's just it's the upper body/shoulders that has to remain square....not the lower body.

quote:

If your hands are wrong so will your lower body.

If you lower body is wrong your hands can't do what they need to do.

Your comment makes no sense simply because your lower body is going to be the same on every swing. Your hand will travel to the ball where ever it is located so they are not going to do the same thing. You wanna have a consistent swing and leading with your hands will cause for your swing to be inconsistent. If you listen to what 4genball is saying. The hitters are doing exactly what he says. Your base has to start before your hands. You can put footage of any major league hitter on this site and 90% of them are going to start their base first and have the same alignment at contact. This is universal to all successful hitters. Whether in little league or the Major leagues


Just my two cents!!!

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:



More lives than a cat.

Yes, and the hair is standing up on my neck! I remember posting once about everyone having a "signature."

quote:

Originally posted by BornAgain:
Nothing you wrote matches the video.



Front side opens LONG before launch and yet he stays square.

Study up.

Definition of "LONG" please? If you view the front toe, he's attempting to keep his front toe closed. However, if you put a cursor on his belt buckle. You'll see that the hips do start before the shoulders. However, "seperation" is a vague term when, in fact, it is tenths of a second. Of course there is no denying that the hips do start before the hands or shoulders to open.

The Chipper video is somewhat different in that the front toe lands open. Therefore, the argument could be made that the hips were also opening sooner than the shoulder complex and hands by a larger margin. Still, tenths of a tenth of a second.

You tell me when the 'go' frame is and then I'll define LONG for you.

quote:

Originally posted by BornAgain:
You tell me when the 'go' frame is and then I'll define LONG for you.

Since you know I don't believe in the concept of "go" to count, can't do that. I gave you toe touch or heel down, use either one. Frames or tenths.