Thanks for all of the great reponses. It seems to come down to: To be drafted you need projectable tools and talent. To progress once you are drafted a player needs to show alot of inner strenght and toughness to go along with his talent.
ESPN.com had a story last draft day telling some of the stranger ways some very successful players were drafted. Alot were good but the one that caught my attention was Kenny Rodgers. He was a lefthanded infielder and outfielder. A scout went to a game and he was playing RF. He airmailed to throws to 3rd base and on to home. Scout loved his arm strenght and drafted him as a pitcher around the 20th round. Projectability!!
Great story about your son Fungo. I hope he is doing well. Has he made it the majors?
I must say how much of a pleasure it is to communicate on this site. No petty banter or jealousy like a local one I visit. I'm glad I found it.
quote:Great story about your son Fungo. I hope he is doing well. Has he made it the majors?
He is doing well --- thanks. No MLB. While they all want to play major league baseball he is one that is also enjoying the journey --- (it just happens to be by bus).
Fungo
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
While they all want to play major league baseball he is one that is also enjoying the journey --- (it just happens to be by bus).
Fungo
Fungo, I love your sense of humor!
I wouldn't want to pretend I know what it takes to play major league baseball. I don't. But I've noticed a trend each level up my son has taken.
Consistency.
The old saying, "You don't have to be a great player to play MLB, just a good player every day." Now, I don't know if that's true or not but I can see the meaning it's trying to convey. 1) You need to have the physical tools, 2) You need to apply them on a daily, consistent basis. I think the ones that do are the ones with the competitive fire in their belly, the ones that don't fold under pressure, the ones that do not quit, the ones that don't rely on excuses for failure.
Consistency.
The old saying, "You don't have to be a great player to play MLB, just a good player every day." Now, I don't know if that's true or not but I can see the meaning it's trying to convey. 1) You need to have the physical tools, 2) You need to apply them on a daily, consistent basis. I think the ones that do are the ones with the competitive fire in their belly, the ones that don't fold under pressure, the ones that do not quit, the ones that don't rely on excuses for failure.
quote:Coach May posted: I was talking to a former ml player last hs season before one of my games. We were talking about players and the whole process of making it to the "show". He said this "Some guys are not sure if they belong in the show or not. The ones that make it know they belong."
My son took a few lessons after a minor injury in high school, to check mechanics. He was dragging his arm. His instructor was an experienced successful Reds Area scout/ former Reds MiBL coach/ former local HS coach. One of his high school players was Joe Oliver, a catcher for the Reds. One time he asked Joe "What was the difference sticking in the Show?" Joe said, "Knowing I belonged."
I mentioned both, consistency and calm confidence.
Although, there are some who make it with confidence that is not so calm. lol. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. Either way, there's a strut.
Although, there are some who make it with confidence that is not so calm. lol. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. Either way, there's a strut.
.
Back to the original question...
Am going to take the question to round 30-50...
After years of watching the lower rounds, talking to scouts...I'm gonna tweak you all and add two more factors...
...Quick twitch and "The Look".
44
.
Back to the original question...
quote:I know there is no science to this but I am curious as to what gets a kid drafted, even in the 20th - 30th rounds.
Am going to take the question to round 30-50...
After years of watching the lower rounds, talking to scouts...I'm gonna tweak you all and add two more factors...
...Quick twitch and "The Look".
44.
To me, "The Look" is they look like they play at a different speed. They're never overwhelmed. They make it look effortless.
In reading this thread, there seem to be two completely different discussions.
The first is what gets 25th to 50th rounders drafted and what gets those same players beyond the draft.
For the first, I think the answer is truly organizational. What do they need, what skills do you have that meets their needs and how many of those "needs" do they have. If you are a pitcher, there are a lot more needs in those rounds.
Additional factors include organizations that draft college over high school and finally organizations that strictly draft for filler vs those who draft with the view that every player will be give a chance to play or prove they cannot.
Once drafted, there are very critical issues that are yet to be mentioned. Injury is the most important. There are players, I mean "players," who don't make it because of injury. When you start playing 144 games plus Spring training, injury becomes factor of life, an attrition aspect that strikes indiscriminately, but is very, very real and omni presesent.
There are also major organizational differences. A good illustration will come this week with the Rule V draft. There are some terrific player stuck in AA/AAA. Unless they get to a different organization, by the Rule V or trade, the numbers will rarely allow them to get to the next step, even though they are performing better than players in organizations with less depth, who do.
When you get to professional baseball, there are so many factors beyond the players control that impact how far they get, when you are a player in the rounds being discussed.
The first is what gets 25th to 50th rounders drafted and what gets those same players beyond the draft.
For the first, I think the answer is truly organizational. What do they need, what skills do you have that meets their needs and how many of those "needs" do they have. If you are a pitcher, there are a lot more needs in those rounds.
Additional factors include organizations that draft college over high school and finally organizations that strictly draft for filler vs those who draft with the view that every player will be give a chance to play or prove they cannot.
Once drafted, there are very critical issues that are yet to be mentioned. Injury is the most important. There are players, I mean "players," who don't make it because of injury. When you start playing 144 games plus Spring training, injury becomes factor of life, an attrition aspect that strikes indiscriminately, but is very, very real and omni presesent.
There are also major organizational differences. A good illustration will come this week with the Rule V draft. There are some terrific player stuck in AA/AAA. Unless they get to a different organization, by the Rule V or trade, the numbers will rarely allow them to get to the next step, even though they are performing better than players in organizations with less depth, who do.
When you get to professional baseball, there are so many factors beyond the players control that impact how far they get, when you are a player in the rounds being discussed.
Excellent post infielddad!
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
Excellent post infielddad!
Infielddad,
I was talking about getting drafted in any round, even the lower rounds. What you said, especially about injuries, applies to players drafted in the first or fiftieth.
I was talking about getting drafted in any round, even the lower rounds. What you said, especially about injuries, applies to players drafted in the first or fiftieth.
One word: perserverance.
How quickly fortunes can change:
Carlos Quinten was one of the players chronicled on The Show. He was a first round pick. He finished 2006 as an every day outfielder on the D'backs. He got injured and started slowly in 2007. He was traded yesterday for an A level player.
I think back now to a comment Quinten made about being a "top prospect." He said "It's just a label. A player still has to take the field and get it done."
From azcentral.com (Arizona Republic):
The trade in some ways illustrates how much Quentin's value has changed in the past 12 months. This time last year, he was untouchable, a part of the club's rebuilding process and expected to be a central figure for years to come.
But a shoulder injury that required surgery contributed to a frustrating 2007 season in which he was optioned to the minor leagues in July and ultimately saw his long-term standing in the organization dissolve with phenom Justin Upton's emergence and Eric Byrnes' contract extension.
With the White Sox, he could get a chance to be their everyday left fielder. Quentin is hoping to be fully recovered from the shoulder surgery by Opening Day.
"It's bittersweet for him because he feels like he didn't get a chance to accomplish everything he wanted in Arizona," said Brodie Van Wagenen, Quentin's agent. "So he leaves there with a sense of unfulfillment but at the same point he's appreciative of the Diamondbacks to give him a chance to go play elsewhere."
Carlos Quinten was one of the players chronicled on The Show. He was a first round pick. He finished 2006 as an every day outfielder on the D'backs. He got injured and started slowly in 2007. He was traded yesterday for an A level player.
I think back now to a comment Quinten made about being a "top prospect." He said "It's just a label. A player still has to take the field and get it done."
From azcentral.com (Arizona Republic):
The trade in some ways illustrates how much Quentin's value has changed in the past 12 months. This time last year, he was untouchable, a part of the club's rebuilding process and expected to be a central figure for years to come.
But a shoulder injury that required surgery contributed to a frustrating 2007 season in which he was optioned to the minor leagues in July and ultimately saw his long-term standing in the organization dissolve with phenom Justin Upton's emergence and Eric Byrnes' contract extension.
With the White Sox, he could get a chance to be their everyday left fielder. Quentin is hoping to be fully recovered from the shoulder surgery by Opening Day.
"It's bittersweet for him because he feels like he didn't get a chance to accomplish everything he wanted in Arizona," said Brodie Van Wagenen, Quentin's agent. "So he leaves there with a sense of unfulfillment but at the same point he's appreciative of the Diamondbacks to give him a chance to go play elsewhere."
Does not perserverance pertain to any walk of life where one wants to succeed?
Perserverance might be one of the most important thing in reaching the Major Leagues.
But regarding this topic, talent is #1 when it comes to the draft! Perserverance while a very good trait in baseball and life, by itself, will not get a player drafted.
However, it sometimes is the reason that a player has improved his skills enough to be drafted based on his "talent".
So heck... In the end... Maybe perserverance is the main ingredient!
But regarding this topic, talent is #1 when it comes to the draft! Perserverance while a very good trait in baseball and life, by itself, will not get a player drafted.
However, it sometimes is the reason that a player has improved his skills enough to be drafted based on his "talent".
So heck... In the end... Maybe perserverance is the main ingredient!
How about talented players perservering, and LUCKily not getting blocked or hurt?
For those of you who have experience and/or the knowledge, and there seems to be many, what are the "tools or talents" that catches a scouts eye??
Would not the tools be:
1) Hit for power
2) Hit for average
3) Arm strength (throwing)
4) Fielding Ability
5) Speed
1) Hit for power
2) Hit for average
3) Arm strength (throwing)
4) Fielding Ability
5) Speed
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
Would not the tools be:
1) Hit for power
2) Hit for average
3) Arm strength (throwing)
4) Fielding Ability
5) Speed
Not for pitchers!
I think that tools vary depending on position. I used to have a chart that gave the tools that scouts look for regarding position. I lost it when I change to W vista.
I don't consider pitchers to be 5 tool players---they are PITCHERS !!!! A skill unto itelf!
Do you have to have more than one of the 5 tools?
I'm sure it really separates a player who has it all but can one of the tools, especially speed or power, get a kid drafted? Non pitchers that is.
I'm sure it really separates a player who has it all but can one of the tools, especially speed or power, get a kid drafted? Non pitchers that is.
pitchers
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/700680.html
position players
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/703196.html
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/700680.html
position players
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/703196.html
In addition to Perseverance, the following character values will keep a draftee around (even after his primary tools keep improving.)
Respect
Responsibility
Compassion
Sharing
Friendship
Cooperation
Self-discipline
Honesty
Respect
Responsibility
Compassion
Sharing
Friendship
Cooperation
Self-discipline
Honesty
TPM,
Great websites. They seem like scouting 101 classes.
I looked up a pitcher from Clemson drafted by the Cardinals in June. Second round pick, very nice. I hope he reaches all his goals.
Great websites. They seem like scouting 101 classes.
I looked up a pitcher from Clemson drafted by the Cardinals in June. Second round pick, very nice. I hope he reaches all his goals.
fillsfan,
Thank you. You asked a question and deserved an answer, it was the best I could come up with as I had lost that other link.
I do beleive that I had originally gotten some great info from the PG website, I'll go back and look when I can.
Thank you. You asked a question and deserved an answer, it was the best I could come up with as I had lost that other link.
I do beleive that I had originally gotten some great info from the PG website, I'll go back and look when I can.
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
pitchers
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/700680.html
position players
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/703196.html
Great articles, TPM.
quote:Originally posted by Bear:
In addition to Perseverance, the following character values will keep a draftee around (even after his primary tools keep improving.)
Respect
Responsibility
Compassion
Sharing
Friendship
Cooperation
Self-discipline
Honesty
Bear, I wonder if you could explain this. There isn't a single trait or skill in all of those great values that gets measured by those who run minor league player development, especially when your primary tools aren't improving.
Think of it this way: there are about 650 positions in MLB. In each minor league system there are 140 to 180 players at any given time.
They are competing for 3-4 roster spots that might open each year.
Virtues and values are of little to no value in MLB when your skills have peaked below the level to get beyond AAA, from everything I have heard and seen and discussions I had just last night.
A friend and former teammate was to be involved in a trade for Rod Carew when the Twins were trying to dump his salary. My friend was told if the deal happened he was to be the Twins leftfielder. The Yankees pulled him out of the trade even though they were loaded in the outfield. The Twins backed off the trade and sent Carew to the Angels. At the end of his second stellar AAA season my friend was hit by a pitch, broke his wrist and never fully recovered. He never saw a day in the majors.quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
How about talented players perservering, and LUCKily not getting blocked or hurt?
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
How about talented players perservering, and LUCKily not getting blocked or hurt?
Dad04, what a great question.
If the club has many dollars invested, your opportunities increase but are not guaranteed, by any means. Like it or not, there are GM's who do not want to rely on a talented minor leaguer if there is a major league veteran available.
When you see 40 year old position players getting 2/3 year guaranteed money, that means talented players will sit at AA/AAA.
These next few days should be of great interest. There will be 2 years of Rule V players eligible to be picked for very small amounts of money. If there isn't a great deal of movement, things will remain status quo with terrific players sitting and waiting, and waiting, and waiting...well you get the idea.
One of our son's teammates in 2004/05, who was a backup both years, got picked in the Dec. 2005 rule V. Expectations are that he will make that MLB team next year in an organization that is very weak in it's minor league system and without adequate resources to compete in the free agent market.
He is also a very good player who spent several years trying to "earn" his rule V status.
quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
Infielddad,
I was talking about getting drafted in any round, even the lower rounds. What you said, especially about injuries, applies to players drafted in the first or fiftieth.
fillsfan, Either I didn't post what I meant to say and it was misinterpreted.
While it is correct that every player is susceptible to injury, what happens after that can vary greatly depending on the draft round/investment of the club.
Those are things you learn through experience.
If you are drafted in the 50th round and injury affects your production, you are not likely to gt a second chance to prove yourself. If someone in the first round has he same injury and it also impacts production, he will likely get many more chances.
The same injury does not produce necessarily the same result depending on your draft status.
Infielddad,
Agree that a top draft pick and a low draft pick have different standards regarding injuries.
I meant no offense to your original post regarding injuries and opportunity once drafted. My original post was about getting drafted at all.
To be a top 5 round pick a kid has to be an awesome player. To get drafted anywhere there has to be certain things that catches a scouts eye. I was trying to clarify for myself what those things are.
The many great posts in this thread have helped me tremendously.
The reason I started this topic is because I have a 15 yo sophomore who is a good hitter with a lot of power. He is an outfielder with a good arm, good glove but is not the fastest kid in the world. His goal, like a lot of kids, is to be drafted from high school. I do not want to discouage his dream/goal but it is hard for me to see this as a realistic possibility.
He currently plays for a very good travel team that goes to all the age appropriate PG tournaments on the east coast.
He works out at a bb academy every winter and has burnt out yet. I was just wandering how far fetched his dream is.
Thanks
Agree that a top draft pick and a low draft pick have different standards regarding injuries.
I meant no offense to your original post regarding injuries and opportunity once drafted. My original post was about getting drafted at all.
To be a top 5 round pick a kid has to be an awesome player. To get drafted anywhere there has to be certain things that catches a scouts eye. I was trying to clarify for myself what those things are.
The many great posts in this thread have helped me tremendously.
The reason I started this topic is because I have a 15 yo sophomore who is a good hitter with a lot of power. He is an outfielder with a good arm, good glove but is not the fastest kid in the world. His goal, like a lot of kids, is to be drafted from high school. I do not want to discouage his dream/goal but it is hard for me to see this as a realistic possibility.
He currently plays for a very good travel team that goes to all the age appropriate PG tournaments on the east coast.
He works out at a bb academy every winter and has burnt out yet. I was just wandering how far fetched his dream is.
Thanks
quote:Originally posted by RJM:A friend and former teammate was to be involved in a trade for Rod Carew when the Twins were trying to dump his salary. My friend was told if the deal happened he was to be the Twins leftfielder. The Yankees pulled him out of the trade even though they were loaded in the outfield. The Twins backed off the trade and sent Carew to the Angels. At the end of his second stellar AAA season my friend was hit by a pitch, broke his wrist and never fully recovered. He never saw a day in the majors.quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
How about talented players perservering, and LUCKily not getting blocked or hurt?
Blocked AND hurt. He's not alone, I'm sure.
quote:posted by filsfan: I do not want to discouage his dream/goal but it is hard for me to see this as a realistic possibility.
He currently plays for a very good travel team that goes to all the age appropriate PG tournaments on the east coast.
He works out at a bb academy every winter and has burnt out yet. I was just wandering how far fetched his dream is.
By definition, getting drafted is far fetched for nearly every single player at 15. The odds get better for a couple dozen kids by 17 or 18. Don't discourage his dream. Why would you or should you? Don't get distracted by something so out of your control, like who he falls for, or if he gets drafted. You have zero control or clervoyance on either topic.
Take care of what you can and enjoy the rest. My $0.02.
fillsfan,
When it comes to the draft and playing professional baseball, it truly is a process over which you and your son do not have control
I would agree with Dad04 that it is your son's dream and it is a dream shared by so many. I would not try and discourage the dream but you can perhaps bring a sense of realism to the discussions when necessary.
With it being your son's dream, the only thing he can control is improving his skills as a player. Even then, he isn't going to be measured by his skills when determining draftability, he is going to be measured by whether those skills project in 3-4 years.
In some organizations, he is also going to be assessed on whether he has the mental makeup to adapt and succeed and, in some places, that can be deciding factor.
I think it is important to encourage and support your son to develop his tools/skills so he can be the best player he can be, so he can dream.
When it comes to the draft, he can dream, but you can also provide some sense of realism to the process. The true objective isn't to get drafted. That is only the start and it isn't anywhere near the finish line.
Last night I was reading a site that did a summary of every minor league position player in the organization.
There are currently 86 players who were included with scouting reports/comments on tools. Every one of those 86 is a very good player.
Even so, of those 86, it is likely that perhaps 5 or 6 will ever put on a uniform in a MLB game. That, for me, is the guidance you can provide your son when/if the draft presents as a possibility when he is a high school senior, assuming the draft is configured then as it is now, which is very questionable.
When it comes to the draft and playing professional baseball, it truly is a process over which you and your son do not have control
I would agree with Dad04 that it is your son's dream and it is a dream shared by so many. I would not try and discourage the dream but you can perhaps bring a sense of realism to the discussions when necessary.
With it being your son's dream, the only thing he can control is improving his skills as a player. Even then, he isn't going to be measured by his skills when determining draftability, he is going to be measured by whether those skills project in 3-4 years.
In some organizations, he is also going to be assessed on whether he has the mental makeup to adapt and succeed and, in some places, that can be deciding factor.
I think it is important to encourage and support your son to develop his tools/skills so he can be the best player he can be, so he can dream.
When it comes to the draft, he can dream, but you can also provide some sense of realism to the process. The true objective isn't to get drafted. That is only the start and it isn't anywhere near the finish line.
Last night I was reading a site that did a summary of every minor league position player in the organization.
There are currently 86 players who were included with scouting reports/comments on tools. Every one of those 86 is a very good player.
Even so, of those 86, it is likely that perhaps 5 or 6 will ever put on a uniform in a MLB game. That, for me, is the guidance you can provide your son when/if the draft presents as a possibility when he is a high school senior, assuming the draft is configured then as it is now, which is very questionable.
Good posts here.
Don't ever discourage a young players dream. Focus on what you have control over now as infielddad has expressed.
When the time comes at 17,18 (for some later) and he might have to make a decision, you can discuss the possibilities.
In the meantime, don't forget the importance of school, good grades open many doors and is often overlooked by young players in the scheme of things.
Don't ever discourage a young players dream. Focus on what you have control over now as infielddad has expressed.
When the time comes at 17,18 (for some later) and he might have to make a decision, you can discuss the possibilities.
In the meantime, don't forget the importance of school, good grades open many doors and is often overlooked by young players in the scheme of things.
great post by infield dad. and to add to it .most kids have the dream of getting drafted. that can be a great goal, with college bball being a step to reaching that goal.
but what to do after they get drafted? that is something you can both explore.and get a ton of info right here,you've been given some already.
while maybe 10% of the kids drafted have a nice payday,most don't. and it can be a struggle,i'm betting none would give it up without a fight.
it's great to have that dream but take it a step further,lot's to think about. and it will make for some great son/dad conversations.
but what to do after they get drafted? that is something you can both explore.and get a ton of info right here,you've been given some already.
while maybe 10% of the kids drafted have a nice payday,most don't. and it can be a struggle,i'm betting none would give it up without a fight.
it's great to have that dream but take it a step further,lot's to think about. and it will make for some great son/dad conversations.
Has anyone found that Mojo Network on DirecTV? I don't see it.
FWIW...
Never tell a scout that your dream or goal is to get drafted. They want players with much higher goals. I think others here are saying the same thing.
It's kind of like the main objective being to enter the contest rather than winning it.
Never tell a scout that your dream or goal is to get drafted. They want players with much higher goals. I think others here are saying the same thing.
It's kind of like the main objective being to enter the contest rather than winning it.
quote:Originally posted by YHF:
Has anyone found that Mojo Network on DirecTV? I don't see it.
DirecTV does not carry the Mojo Network.
Figures.