When is it finally time to talk to the coach?

proudhesmine posted:

My 2016 came within an eyelash of not playing HSBB after soph. year because of problems with HC.I have a problem right now with HC that I want to post on this thread but, do not want to high jack.I mean no disrespect when I say this.I would not let/put 2016 in a situation you describe with this coach.From what I've read you/son had/have problem with this guy going in before hand.I also am kinda scrathing my head on the sore knee thing.What is his off season rest period?what is his getting ready for season routine?.I constantly am on 2016 about his health.He is a top 2 sport kid.Other than this last FB season(he was on my very short string) he is really good with telling me how he feels.But there is a diffirence in being sore.There is a good sore and a bad sore this time of year with alot of kids.As far as the pitching catching thing I am 110% on your side.

Good comments and questions.  If a parent has a talented work ethic player they should be more involved with the regimen for required rest and fitness off season and during the season.  Even if a program has a regimen, as a parent you've got to do your research about the program, its' coaches, frequency of training sessions.  

There has to be planned days of rest.  Protect your kid.  Life after baseball is much longer. 

It's important to realize how difficult it is for some young high school kids to step into this new role of semi-adult. For many, it's easy enough. For others, though, it's extremely difficult. It takes some preparation and some experience. Don't get me wrong, they are going to have to learn - and learn fast - to take care of themselves. It took a LOT of coaxing to get my kid to make his first recruiting call to a college coach. He did not want to do it. Over a short amount of time, though, he's gotten more comfortable with it. It was a matter of him finally understanding that this was something we could not do for him.

So, don't be surprised if your kid talks to the coach and doesn't do the best job of expressing what needs to be said. I don't think it would be out of line, in this situation, after your son has approached the coach, to follow up with a conversation that just confirms that the kid did talk to the coach and express your concerns that he was able to express himself well.

My son is son number 3 that has played baseball at this high school so I know the coach pretty well.  We had a conversation before freshman year about my neurosis when it comes to arm care/injuries and he knows it comes from my oldest son tearing his labrum.  We agreed on things like pitch count limits to start the season and a general guideline of what we were comfortable with when it came to how often he pitched.  Then we stepped away and left it to my son to let him know if he is sore and to handle the day to day stuff.  It might have been better to completely leave it to my son but I don't trust him to make those kinds of decisions when a game is on the line.  He's too competitive to pull himself before he's hurt. 

LivingtheDream posted:

My son is son number 3 that has played baseball at this high school so I know the coach pretty well.  We had a conversation before freshman year about my neurosis when it comes to arm care/injuries and he knows it comes from my oldest son tearing his labrum.  We agreed on things like pitch count limits to start the season and a general guideline of what we were comfortable with when it came to how often he pitched.  Then we stepped away and left it to my son to let him know if he is sore and to handle the day to day stuff.  It might have been better to completely leave it to my son but I don't trust him to make those kinds of decisions when a game is on the line.  He's too competitive to pull himself before he's hurt. 

 

Example of a good move by the parent: pretty important to be dialed into how your son operates.  When it comes to safety, too much at risk.  Probably why I'm so proactive with my 2018; teaching health, rest, arm care etc.  I learned a lot from my 2016 experiences.

 

TPM posted:

I have to agree with bacdor and GOV, and I understand this is not his HS coach a travel coach and my understanding  he also is a dad coach.

Sometimes I get a bit confused. Your son is a catcher, pitcher and 3rd basemen yet you have concerns that the coach might pitch him one game and have him catch the next?  And you are upset that he caught to all the pitchers the other night and afraid his knees were weak?  But you think maybe that you should have a talk with him, about what? Isn't this what he signed up for?  So instead of going to speak to the coach, wouldn't it be better to sit down with your son and discuss better options or solutions beforehand so you or your son wont have to have that conversation.

Please do not take this the wrong way, but I just don't get it sometimes, player wants to play all positions that can cause issues later on but parents want the player to play on their terms?

That's not how it works, no matter at what level you play at.

JMO

Son wants to be a third baseman. He plays where coaches need/put him. We have other kids who can do third, not as many choices for catching and pitching. Went into the team with two catchers, my son and one other, who shows up late, has a bad attitude, and when he is there, coach doesn't like to play him. That's between the coach and that boy, but its putting more pressure on my son to do more.

And yes, he signed up for that.

We talk a lot to my son. I'm trying to decide the best option of how to advise him and then when I should get involved.

I got on this site because I'm a mom who knows NOTHING about sports, except what I've learned over the last 10 years of son playing baseball.

It's good to hear lots of voices on topics, and take some things from roothog, some from TPM and still more from Gov and others. I appreciate all the suggestions. I'll take some, ignore some and in the end work with my son to make the best decision for him.

I am a mom so been there and done it.

My opinion, don't burn him out before his season starts. Play for practice and don't sacrifice yourself because  no one is there to do the job. 

cabbagedad posted:

I don't know if I've ever seen so many "likes" on a post so it is obviously excellent advice from coach2709.  And as I was reading through Coach's post, I found myself nodding in total agreement all the way through before I saw the likes.

HOWEVER...  as I think longer on this one, I actually disagree with the player handling this.  I'm going to go against the grain with some of the folks who I respect the absolute most here on HSBBW. 

I TOTALLY agree that dad stepping in on game day is the worst possible option.  I totally agree that players this age need to handle their own business.  But, look, the kids with the best attitudes, the kids who love to play the most, the kids who have been properly parented with respect to elders, those kids want to go where the coach tells them and have a good attitude about it.  Those kids want to play instead of sit.  Those kids want to be in the middle of things and it doesn't get any more "middle" than pitcher and catcher.  Those kids want to help the team any way needed... and so on an so on.  You get my point.  So this is one topic where I find it appropriate for the parent to step in and say something like...

"Johnny would never say anything to you because he loves to play and wants to help the team wherever he is needed but we have studied up on how it is highly recommended not to have kids pitch and catch the same day unless it is just a few innings at each. He comes home and his legs are very tired from catching bullpens for two hours straight.  Then he is asked to pitch and this is when, we're told, kids' mechanics will fail and arm injuries follow.  We totally appreciate everything you do with the team and will stay out of all decisions you make but when it comes to any concerns with our son's health, we feel the need to communicate with you."  "Are there maybe some reasonable guidelines that can be put in place with limits for pitching and catching?"

Then, when he asks what you had in mind, that's when you introduce him to HSBBW!!!!!  Win, win, win

JMO... any other issues regarding normal stuff, the kid handles it.

 

 

I'll be honest I'm pretty proud of all the likes.  Makes me feel like I'm not a big dummy lol.  Just so everyone knows I have the utmost respect for Cabbagedad and believe if you read something he posts you will be better for it.  I understand totally where he's coming from and he makes a very valid point about kids want to be out there and don't realize when the tune it down.  I totally understand where he's coming from.

But (there always is one) - when does this kid finally learn when to take into consideration of factoring in his own health and making these decisions?  Honestly, I think the answer probably lies in the middle of what each of us said.  I strongly believe these kids need to learn to stand up on their own two feet but when it comes to health mom and dad need to have the say in this.  I'm not 100% sure what that middle answer would be but I think both teaching the kid to stand up for himself and parents making sure health is taken care of can co-exist.

Elijah posted:

Agree with CABBAGEDAD. Perfect wording. This particular issue is when the player might need an advocate. If the player felt comfortable with handling the issue, that would be my first choice, but I wonder how many coaches would hear those words in the intended way from a player. 

Great question and I think this is where that middle ground of what myself and Cabbagedad are talking about.  Give the kid the first shot (with parental guidance) but if it's not listened to then parents step in.  Speaking as a coach I want my kids to have these conversations with me.  Look I'll know my kids and I'll know which ones are holding back info wanting to play, I'll know which ones are being truthful and I'll know which ones are not pushing themselves enough.  End of the day I'm going to error on the side of caution in case I'm not sure.  But these things only happen if you develop a relationship and trust with your kids.  Now, not all coaches are like this and someone needs to step in someway, somehow.

coach2709 posted:

 

I'll be honest I'm pretty proud of all the likes.  Makes me feel like I'm not a big dummy lol.  Just so everyone knows I have the utmost respect for Cabbagedad and believe if you read something he posts you will be better for it.  I understand totally where he's coming from and he makes a very valid point about kids want to be out there and don't realize when the tune it down.  I totally understand where he's coming from.

But (there always is one) - when does this kid finally learn when to take into consideration of factoring in his own health and making these decisions?  Honestly, I think the answer probably lies in the middle of what each of us said.  I strongly believe these kids need to learn to stand up on their own two feet but when it comes to health mom and dad need to have the say in this.  I'm not 100% sure what that middle answer would be but I think both teaching the kid to stand up for himself and parents making sure health is taken care of can co-exist.

There are MANY MANY MANY kids today that don't understand the distinction between standing up for yourself and just being rude and disrespectful to an adult.  If you send your child into the lions den to talk with the coach make sure you gave him a shield. 

Every now and then my 8th grader still pops his head in the door to my office, says a statement and then says "Rude, or okay?"  Usually I say it's okay, but there have been a few times where my response was "You had better be practicing what to say to a friend and not an adult" in which case he pops his entire body into the office tells me the situation and we talk through responses that sound like him but still sound respectful.

Great job parenting Caco3girl! Not many teens would have that conversation with their parents.

bacdorslider posted:

Is it really that hard for a player to talk to the coach?  I mean as much time as they spend together ?  Just last week 2018 was pitching in a scrimmage and the head coach yelled at him to speed up the game.

After his allotted threes innings he was in the bullpen doing post pitching work and 2018 asked the pitching coach if the head coach was yelling at him to speed up the game or the umpire.  The pitching coach said he wanted you to speed up the game.

2018 went to the head coach and said that its his game to pitch , every game I pitch has a slightly different feel and at that time in the game  he needed to take a little longer than usual.   Keep in mind he faced 10 batters striking out 7 ...walked one.   HS school coaches are for the most part great guys, and great teachers , not always great coaches. 

Are most high school players intimidated by their coach?

 

My son has never had a problem talking to any adult, but he's so intimidated by his coach that he wouldn't initiate a conversation with him if they were the only two people stuck in an elevator.  In his defense, the coach seems very  unapproachable.  I don't want to put words in his mouth, cause I can't remember the details, so I won't be specific, but he says things that make it clear that he doesn't want to talk to you...kid or parent.  I'm fairly certain that most of the kids feel the same way.

My son is pretty careful about coaches he does't know well, like his spring coach. But his high school varsity coach is a whole different thing--son texts him all the time with questions, looking for input on recruiting, weights, workouts etc., and he usually gets answers.

Our school was looking for a pitching coach. Son texted varsity coach and suggested a guy everyone knew, who had played minor league and given lessons to about every player on the team, but no one had thought about him taking an official role. He not only suggested it to his varsity coach, he suggested it to the guy and to the guy's mother.

They ended up deciding the guy is more valuable to the team being able to coach kids in the off season, but it was fun to see a 16-year-old offer up an idea that no one had thought of before, and have it taken seriously.

I think son's "if I need to play left bench to help the team win, I will be the best left bench you've ever seen" attitude has a lot to do with the respect the adults give him. Those relationships are earned, and not every coach is open to them. We're lucky to have found one who is.

Invest in knee savers?  The big league guys catch 7 days a week.  Pitching and catching as a starter is too much.  But if he catches and relief pitches the same game, that seems fine.  

hsbaseball101 posted:

Invest in knee savers?  The big league guys catch 7 days a week.  Pitching and catching as a starter is too much.  But if he catches and relief pitches the same game, that seems fine.  

Don't start with the knee savers discussion....ugh....that's another thread for another time.

I have always heard it is the worst case scenario to go from catching and THEN pitch.  Something about legs being week/fatigued being a huge cause for pitcher fatigue which leads to bad mechanics.

hsbaseball101 posted:

Invest in knee savers?  The big league guys catch 7 days a week.  Pitching and catching as a starter is too much.  But if he catches and relief pitches the same game, that seems fine.  

IF you're going to catch and pitch it should be as a starter.  Pitch 4-6 innings and take the rest of the game off.  Hopefully you'll have an off day before you're back behind the plate.  

Do not let your son pitch and catch without proper rest.  My did it as a HS Freshman and has had two elbow surgeries since and still isn't the same as before.  His HS coach did abuse him with high pitch counts and then would have him catch the next day.  We (his parents) stayed out of it but I sure regret not getting involved back then.  

Who know if the results would have been different but I think they would have.  My kid never wanted to come out of a game and would never say no to playing.  I think now he regrets that as well.

Have you kid talk to the coach and if his response isn't what it should be then intervene.  BTW I usually never advocate for getting involved with coaches unless a kids health is at risk.

My son's last surgeon said catcher's throwing motion is more harmful than a pitchers.  At least that is his opinion.

Brutal story there, hope your son is good now.  Parents have to be involved, but in a different way - education/awareness.  It's the only way to help prevent injuries, it's also a way to know to stay away - coach is all over it.  Kids will be done with baseball one day, they'd probably like the chance to play catch with their own kid one day.

daveccpa posted:

Do not let your son pitch and catch without proper rest.  My did it as a HS Freshman and has had two elbow surgeries since and still isn't the same as before.  His HS coach did abuse him with high pitch counts and then would have him catch the next day.  We (his parents) stayed out of it but I sure regret not getting involved back then.  

Who know if the results would have been different but I think they would have.  My kid never wanted to come out of a game and would never say no to playing.  I think now he regrets that as well.

Have you kid talk to the coach and if his response isn't what it should be then intervene.  BTW I usually never advocate for getting involved with coaches unless a kids health is at risk.

My son's last surgeon said catcher's throwing motion is more harmful than a pitchers.  At least that is his opinion.

 

(emphasis mine)

Have mentioned this before on these boards, but again . . . 

I was glad I learned my lesson early when my son was on a 13U travel team and played an early morning double header.  First game he pitched the whole game and the very next game right afterwards the coach had him catch the whole game.  Seemed like son's arm was indestructible and I didn't give it much thought . . . until after these games walking  back to the car son mentioned his arm was a "little" sore (I kinda think he understated what he was feeling).  Upon resting for a couple weeks, the soreness didn't go away, then took him to doctor and it was strongly recommended he throw absolutely nothing for 3 months.  That's what we did and he's been fine since, though I've watched over him carefully ever since then.

Dads and Moms gotta have hand understanding with the coaches . . . especially those on travel teams where so many games are played in a short period of time.

Truman posted:

daveccpa posted:

Do not let your son pitch and catch without proper rest.  My did it as a HS Freshman and has had two elbow surgeries since and still isn't the same as before.  His HS coach did abuse him with high pitch counts and then would have him catch the next day.  We (his parents) stayed out of it but I sure regret not getting involved back then.  

Who know if the results would have been different but I think they would have.  My kid never wanted to come out of a game and would never say no to playing.  I think now he regrets that as well.

Have you kid talk to the coach and if his response isn't what it should be then intervene.  BTW I usually never advocate for getting involved with coaches unless a kids health is at risk.

My son's last surgeon said catcher's throwing motion is more harmful than a pitchers.  At least that is his opinion.

 

(emphasis mine)

Have mentioned this before on these boards, but again . . . 

I was glad I learned my lesson early when my son was on a 13U travel team and played an early morning double header.  First game he pitched the whole game and the very next game right afterwards the coach had him catch the whole game.  Seemed like son's arm was indestructible and I didn't give it much thought . . . until after these games walking  back to the car son mentioned his arm was a "little" sore (I kinda think he understated what he was feeling).  Upon resting for a couple weeks, the soreness didn't go away, then took him to doctor and it was strongly recommended he throw absolutely nothing for 3 months.  That's what we did and he's been fine since, though I've watched over him carefully ever since then.

Dads and Moms gotta have hand understanding with the coaches . . . especially those on travel teams where so many games are played in a short period of time.

So what is considered proper rest in this case? Are there published guidelines like with pitch count? I'm guessing there isn't anything official, just wondering how people make this determination. This in no way applies to my son as I haven't seen a lefty behind the plate in many moons, but it might be helpful information for others to think about.

Before we get off the original question from the OP and on to what sort of mix of pitching and catching is appropriate - I've recently posted on another thread about communication with our HS baseball coaches.  All communication needs to flow through the player, all the way down through middle school, dictated by the varsity coach who runs the program from top down.  I don't believe any of the catchers have pitched since 2016 started playing in 7th grade so I'm not sure how our coach would handle this - my guess would be by just having that player catch (he tends to have several POs which is why my former Infieder/RHP is now just a RHP).  

But, the scenario you are describing is a local dad who is helping out by running the summer program.   I'm all for letting a sophomore make a run at explaining/discussing the concerns with the coach but does anyone here really have a problem having a calm, reasoned discussion with another parent about how their son should be used during the summer season?  Esp when it's a specific health concern like this where the risks of overuse are well known and it's possible that said coach (based on the way the coach was described) may not be totally aware?