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Here we go again. This is a less questionable 'miss' by the umpire.

I can't recall a post-season in which the umpiring was called into question this frequently since 1999 when the umpires were giving the Yankess phantom outs against the Red Sox. I'd sure like to the umpires pick their game up to the level and quality of the teams still in play.

ABO

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The Sox have been on the right side of some of these calls but they always cash in.
Umpiring is no better or worse than in any era. Now with the tightness of these cameras, the number of angles they get, and the super slow-mo it is just much easier to see the mistakes.
What a tough job these guys have. If you've watched a mlb game from the 1st row the speed at which things happen is amazing. I will admit though these playoffs have seen an unusual number of tough,tough calls that often have been wrong.
Was there some reason the home plate ump didn't ask the 5 umpires out in the field for help? I'm never offended when umps or referees huddle to try to get a call right, but I hate it when stubborn pride keeps an official from asking.

As the southern judge drawled when he dismissed the solicitation charge against an old man, accused of propositioning a young lady, "there's no harm in asking".
Very unfortunate for the White Sox that as they capitilize on every terrible call and march on towards an inevitable World Championship the focus already is on the umpires and, IMO,will stay on the umps well after the series is over. These guys are just plain awful and have become the bigger story. Never should happen.
Forget instant replay, I think there should be a better way of grading umps during the year, somebody's missing the boat, this is becoming laughable and is forcing MLB hand to use technology in some regard. The other option is to show games on tv from a distant camera.

Nice slide at home for the Astros tieing run in the 9th.

The Soxs will probably prevail, but, their fans who refuse to say "we've been lucky to win a couple of these games" is beginning to show an ugly side.
Seems there is some discontent in the MLB umpiring ranks as well.....(from the NY Daily News)........


Umpires not making grade

CHICAGO - As they hold their collective breath that the World Series will play out free of any more controversial calls, MLB officials from the commissioner's office and the Players Association are looking into the grading circumstances that led to Joe West being named umpire crew chief while some of the game's most respected and seasoned umpires were left out.

According to two sources familiar with the process, the grading of umpires is left to the sole discretion of supervisor Frank Pulli, a former crew chief who is based in Tampa, where he receives all the Questec (balls and strikes) grading data from the ballparks. (It is said the Questec reports bear the most weight in the grading, but nobody apparently sees them except Pulli.)


"The grading is a joke," one source said. "It's all political, stemming from the mass resignation of the umpires a couple of years ago in which different camps got formed. Pulli is rewarding the guys who are in his camp and punishing the guys who aren't. How can Tim McClelland (one of the most highly regarded umpires for more than 25 years) not be in the World Series when Angel Hernandez is?"


A second source cited the selection of West, whose aggressive, showboating style prompted MLB officials to single him out as one the umpires who absolutely had to go as a condition for the hiring back of many of the 22 umps who had resigned in 1999. West's initial refusal to go held the deal up for two months, but then in 2002, he was hired back and made a regular-season crew chief by Pulli.


One of the game's most respected senior umps, Jerry Layne, is in the Series crew, but the sources said it is no accident this is his first World Series after 16 years on the job.


"He's not one of Pulli's guys," said one source, "but if I were the chiefs from MLB I'd make sure to take Layne aside and tell him to keep West in line. Everybody respects Layne - and West, left unchecked, is scary."


Then there's the case of Bruce Froemming who, with 36 years of service, is the senior major league umpire but was not given any postseason assignments. "You can say what you want about Bruce's weight and some of the dumb things he's said on occasion," said one source, "but he does a decent job and won't ever freeze up. But Pulli kept him out of the All-Star Game in Milwaukee, where he lives, just to spite him three years ago."


According to other sources, Richie Garcia, one of Pulli's supervisor lieutenants, was assigned to a Red Sox-Yankees series in Boston that year and gave Froemming eight unsatisfactory grades. It was then reported that Froemming's good ratings were shredded by Ralph Nelson, the former umpires chief supervisor who was subsequently fired.


Another respected ump, 15-year veteran Mike Winters, was left off the postseason assignment list after getting into a heated argument with Steve Palermo, another Pulli lieutenant, over a particular pitcher's perceived illegal move. According to the source, the incident took place in August and Winters incurred Palermo's wrath by refusing to call the pitcher out on it four months into the season while telling him the situation should be straightened out in spring training.


In March 2002, the Daily News reported that at the height of the Pete Rose gambling investigation in 1989, umpires Pulli and Garcia were found to have been associating with known gamblers and bookmakers. However, then-commissioner Fay Vincent covered up the investigation and merely placed the umps on probation. Sandy Alderson, as VP of operations for baseball in charge of the umpires, then hired Pulli and Garcia to be supervisors after they were forced to retire in the aftermath of the '99 mass resignation purge.


"They made mistakes," Alderson was quoted as saying, "but from my standpoint there is no question of their integrity and commitment to the game or to the profession of umpiring."


One suspects many of the senior and most highly respected umpires might not agree with that assessment.
I am with BBscout-- I have never liked umpires

They now have a new "thing' that we have been experiencing--an inning or two after the miscall or perhaps after the game they come over an apologize for the bad call-- took a home run away from our # 5 hitter yesterday and then after the game the ump tells the kid " I owe you one, I blew it"-- great--we will probably never see the guy again so we cannot even get a "payback" call.

And it is the same no matter we play, even on college campuses where we get the guys who do college games

Yesterday I could see it coming when we went over ground rules--the home plate ump was more intent on telling me how good a baseball player his HS senior son was -- perhaps a hint as to whether ot not I could use him Jupiter??
Gotwood wrote,
quote:
I agree with you ...its a huge story but there's enough room in it for the umps!

The best games are where the umps are not visible or part of the story, not where they determine an outcome. Granted the game was not over, and the Soxs may have prevailed anyway, but there are "checks and balances" within the system that are not being considered.
Last edited by rz1
The strike zone could be lazered so that there is a beep in the umps ear if it's a strike and a buzz if it's a ball. No one would ever know. An no one could ever complain. And, it could be tracked to whether the ump was following procedure.

Replay fits baseball to a T. The only legitimate argument against it is how long it takes. Well, unless you've got about 4 or 5 selected pitchers in the league, you have all the time you need plus some between pitches.

You can't put a limit on the time between pitches so you might as well use it for something constructive.

bbscout...

locally this morning they interviewed an ump who lives in St. Louis. I believe his name was Culpa. Here's his statement......"part of the beauty of baseball is the umpires failure".

He said it as if he was proud that umps make mistakes. He was proud that baseball is the only game that the manager can come running out onto the field to argue.

Sorry dimwit. You aren't who I pay to see.

I can guarantee you in 20 years or less, people will look back and say....."are you kidding me, they had this technology and didn't even use it." What else they'll laugh at is how ridiculous the reason was......"it's part of the game".
Last edited by Linear
rz1:

I was just messin' with you a bit with the comment about there being room in the story for the umps. They unquestionly do influence the outcome of any contest...both rightly and wrongly.

Their decisions produce by far more right results than wrong results but the key is getting them in a position where their decisions that produce wrong decisions do not create such an abundance of controversy.

With the use of increasingly sophisticated technology by the media this is a problem for the umps much like denisr400 so correctly stated in an earlier post on this thread.

This problem must be addressed sensibly and measures taken in such a way that the essence of baseball is not tarnished or diminished. I'm not sure there is any easy fix for this one.

I could not agree with you more on your idea that the probable fix should come from within the umpire's realm and NOT utilizing instant replay.

Putting yourself in the shoes of a White Sox fan would allow you and others to see these umpiring gaffes in a much different light. There are mistakes being made against the White Sox also but they are not the focus now.

For now we White Sox fans are savoring the moment regardless of the umps. Its a nice feeling.
Linear:

Could not disagree with you any more strongly. Umpires and their decisions...right or wrong... are indeed 'part of the game'.

This controversy is shaping up to be 'progressive' or allowing technological changes vs. 'conservative' or holding onto traditions.

People can come down on either side of the issue but they must realize that allowing the changes MAY result in a game that we may or may not recognize. Holding to tradition will absolutely produce some imperfect results but the game,warts and all, will remain recognizable.

Choices,choices,choices!
gotwood and soxnole ...

I am sure that even tho some of us are National League fans and are cheering for the Astros, we do respect the talent on the CWS team and obviously believe that they deserve to be there. And we don't even know if the terrible umpiring in this year's post-season has actually had an impact on the results of the games ... it isn't always a given that with the right call, "our team" would have won the game. It is just so so frustrating to watch "professional officials" making such poor calls in such a big limelight.

JMEHO
Let's see - so far - the "tech" changes to the game have brought us:

Astroturf
Aluminum bats
Commercials behind home plate
Steroids
Full body armor for hitters
Interviews with managers during the game

I am sure I am missing a few other gems.

Perhaps we should just leave the game alone - let the players play - let the umps ump - and sit back and have a beer and a stogie.

(And if you are a moose - some fresh berries too.)

worm
Last edited by itsinthegame
Gotwood,
I knew there was some ribbing involved but I wish that that the Sox fans approach would be...

"I wish the umps would get their shet together so there would be no doubt, or excuses, who the best team was."

The Angels played the sportsmanship card and I think gained the respect of the baseball world. The Sox have had a great year and should be credited for it, but, there seems to be a label developing across the country on the demeanor of the White Sox and their South Side fans.

I honestly can see where that "in your face" reaction comes from when a large % of Chicago population is rooting for the Astros. That might put me on the defensive also.

The joke in WI is. Why are there so many rental trucks with Illinois plates entering WI?

Because if the Sox's win the series Cub fans are concerned about their lives and possesions.

I hope I live long enough to see a White Sox/Cub series.
Last edited by rz1
Sox(s)nole,

You'd be surprised to see what windy city mlb hat I wear. I just have a different look at this than the Chicago Southside/Gary IN fan base Wink.

A far as bringing the "boys" to Madison to wreak havoc, can you wait until next week. Madison has 150,000+ wannabes already coming to town for Halloween.

However, when you do come I have a list of liberal functions for the boys to visit. I'll drive.
Big Grin

Holden,
I'm from Madison, where in the 60's we could not enter High School unless you had been tear gassed at least twice, bring 'em on.
Last edited by rz1
quote:
I am sure I am missing a few other gems.


What about Foxtrac (or whatever it was called). Either I am going blind (which could be) or almost half the time the pitch I watched wasn't near where they said it was. noidea

BTW, I am against instant replay. I realize the umps are human. Just wish their mistakes weren't in such crucial situations. Would Dye have ended up walking, getting a hit, make the third out? We'll never know.
Sure the call was blown. But it is MUCH easier to see that one on slo-mo than to be behind the plate, in a mask, with the ball coming in at 92 mph.

Most unfortunately, the Astros did more damage to themselves than the umps did.

Misplayed ball at the wall by F7. F5 ole's one he should have been in front of. F4 has a pop fly tip off his glove (which F9 should have called for & taken). Stranding too many runners yet again. Sigh.

I hope they can still do it, but they really needed to pick up one in Chi town.
IMHO;

Being a Chicago White Sox fan has never been popular or fashionable. The Sox have never pretended to have a following. It is extremely rare to meet a Sox fan outside of his/her natural habitat; Northwest Indiana, the Southside and Westside of Chicago, and peppered pockets of the Chicago metro area (due to generations that have migrated). It is not surprising to find that this national website is any different.

The question is one of respect. The Sox seldom get the respect deserved even when they win the AL Pennant and take the first two games in the 2005 World Series. If this was any other team, the umpiring would not be of such controversy. Talked about maybe but not scrutinized to the extent of being credited with determining the out come of a game. The baseball establishment has never forgiven the CWS for 1919 and the Cubbies fans have hated us since 1906 when we took 4 out of 6, from the overwhelming favored Cubs, to win the World Series after the Cubs went 116 – 36 in the regular season (wonder if the umps had anything to do with that). That being said, it does not surprise me that the world outside of the nation of White Sox fans are struggling with the success of Ozzie ball and look to distract and even tarnish the 2005 CWS accomplishments.

Rz1, Regarding instant replay; it would ruin the game of baseball. KISS – keep it simple! The umps are part of the game period, like it or not, gotwood4sale and itsinthegame I’m with you, well said.

“When I am right, no one remembers. When I’m wrong, no one forgets.” ~ Doug Harvey
Last edited by Smokey
Based on piaa ump's post, which shouldn't surprise anyone, I propose that MLB add a significant (albiet minority) percentage of field manager's input (25-33%?) to these umpire evalutation formulas.

At the very least this would withold post season rewards for the strutting, bigger-than-the-game, hyper-confrontational types.

And obviously such decisions should never be the sole responsibility of any one person.
Last edited by HaverDad
Smokey,

I feel your pain, but when it comes to lack of respect - your White Sox will never even come close to my Metsies.

As for the Chicago thing - I couldnt care less about either of them - but the way I see it:

The White Sox are looking pretty good - and the Cubs players are home eating Dunkin Donuts and sipping down their mocha lattes.

That is truly IMO - the bottom line.

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