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10yo pitching question...

D deaconspoint100+ posts
Son will probably be pitching every three days, Sat, Tues, Friday. Probably 45-50 pitches max including between innings.

On the off days, should he throw at all, or should he rest the arm all together.

I hope this is not a stupid question. I truly don't know what is best. I know resting the arm shouldn't hurt him, but is it actually better in some way for him to continue with some light throwing?

Thanks in advance,

Tim
deaconspoint
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TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
IMO, FWIW, I wouldn't allow my 10 year old to catch and pitch.

Someone made a statment on another thread, the shoulder makes no distinction between pitching and catching, I agree. Why would you have a young shoulder, do all of that work?

That's my opinion, you may get others who think that it is ok.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by deaconspoint:
I agree TPM. I don't care for the pitching at all to be honest. It's easy to lose sight of what's most important when you see your son getting praised and enjoying the extra success.

Thanks for telling it like it is.

Tim


Tim,
If I had it to do over again, my player would not be pitching at all at 10.
I just posted something on this on another thread, when young players are successful, tehy get used more often. What we fail to realize is that they are VERY young with growing bodies, common sense should always prevail over our feelings that our kids are awesome and can help teams win.

The problem is that, success at 10 means absolutely nothing.

If it were me, I would go back and have a talk with the coach, find another pitcher or find another catcher. I see no harm with young pitchers playing other positions, or being the DH, firstbaseman, outfield (arm doesn't get as much work out there at 10 Smile).

I am getting crazy over this stuff, there is excellent information out there for recommendations on what young players should or shouldn't do (see Haverdad's post in general). We didn't have all of this info when mine was 10, resulting in many more injuries that could have been avoided (from overuse).
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
quote:
If I had it to do over again, my player would not be pitching at all at 10.
I just posted something on this on another thread, when young players are successful, they get used more often.


I agree 100%. Mine is 15 now. You don't know how much stress is being put on those little arms until it's too late. Kids that age don't don't know what pain is and play through far too much of it because the just don't know and as a result don't say anything. The downside of all the tournaments, "world series" events, etc for very young kids is that parents and coaches get too caught up in winning and don't realize the harm to growing bones and muscles that gets done.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
I don't know if I agree with that. Maybe I'm not far along enough in the process. My son is 15 as well. Has been pitching snce he was 8 or 9. It is what he loves to do and he is good at it. I don't know if he would have that love or understanding if he had not done it at an early age.

I do think your plan is a little rigorous though. I think 2 times per week is plenty if you watch his pitch count. Don't let him throw past the point of fatigue and let him have 3-4 complete days of rest between starts.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Son will probably be pitching every three days, Sat, Tues, Friday. Probably 45-50 pitches max including between innings.

On the off days, should he throw at all, or should he rest the arm all together.

I hope this is not a stupid question. I truly don't know what is best. I know resting the arm shouldn't hurt him, but is it actually better in some way for him to continue with some light throwing?

Thanks in advance,

Tim

deaconspoint


Pitching two to three times a week with days off inbetween is fine. Kid should throw on off days (every day he should be throwing some) at this age as to condition the arm. When i say throwing I mean that he should go out and play catch and get his arm in motion and warmed up.

My son has been pitching since he was 9 2-3 times a week with similar pitch counts you have mentioned. He has almost always thrown on off days when the weather permits. The arm needs to get used to the throwing motion to develop good muscle memory and strength and that only happens by repetiotion.

Ever been to a pro-ball game? You watch the players and they will work out with bands and excersizes and then throw for quite some time (30-40 minutes) most of which are relatively pretty hard throws. They will go out and do this every single day, they do not take a break. But, they are also condiotioned to go out and throw hard every day.

One of the interesting phenomenons about muscle and bone growth is that they both know each other and they will both work in harmony. It's kind of natures way of protection. By this I mean that you take your normal 10 year old kid and he will only be able to throw as hard as his skeletal development is established. The muscles will not directly overpower what the bones can handle.

This translates into this- Kids (9-10 yr. olds)start out throwing at velocities that do not overstress the muscles and bones. They are not really damaging anything by throwing. They may have some muscle fatigue from time to time which is absolutely normal. Kids at this age just do not have the veolcities that can do damage to muscle and bones. Most 10 year olds throw about mid 50's if they are good. Throwing every other day for three to four innings at that age is just not going to ever damage a kids arm. How many 10 year olds are in need of tommy john surgery? None! They just don't throw hard enough.

As kids get older, then you need to be better at conditioning their arms- to make them stronger and less prone to injury. Better care in warming up and stretching out as they get older before they start throwing in a game is the key.

My 13 year old still throws pretty much every day including pitching in either a game or bullpen every other day.

Let me ask you this- Do marathon runners after they get done running go and sit in wheelchairs or lay in bed for the next 24 hrs? No, they may rest but they are still very active and are walking or jogging around the very next day. This is because they are condiotioned for it. Just because you pitch on one day doesn't mean that you have to put your arm in a sling until you throw again (unless it truly is injured) two days later. I personally believe kids should learn how to throw so that they can throw every day whenever they want to without any pain or injury.

Kids today just don't throw enough (notice that I didn't say pitch). The throwing motion when playing catch is harmless and is actually beneficial to arm strength and longevity. Pitching at 100% effort is a max effort event and as your kid matures and starts to reach that threshold (about the age of 12-13) then you will need to get picky about how much he pitches and what he is doing to condition himself better for pitching events. There is a difference between pitching on game days and "just throwing" on off days and that should be remebered. Every kid who is properly conditioned could go out and make a 100 throws in a day every day forever without injury, but no one can go out and throw at 100% max effort everyday without some recovery from fatigue and stress.
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
quote:
My son has been pitching since he was 9 2-3 times a week with similar pitch counts you have mentioned. He has almost always thrown on off days when the weather permits. The arm needs to get used to the throwing motion to develop good muscle memory and strength and that only happens by repetiotion.



mine did all this stuff as well, as tpm say's the better players get used more often. i know mine was. ( tj surgery at 20)
players should never catch and pitch, just no good reason to throw every pitch in every game.

this ride is a one timer, with one arm, take care of it. learn what's important, in the grand scheme of things. a 10 yr old has never signed a pro contract. but they dream of it. Big Grin
Last edited by 20dad
D danocaster10+ posts
I'm about in the same boat- my son is 9 is has been the 'go to' pitcher on his team. He has pitched 2 games where he pitched the limit- 70 pitches. I kept asking him if he felt OK, and he did, but I don't know if that even really means much at this point. I'm guessing they always hurt after they pitch, not while they're pitching.

Is 60 - 70 pitches dangerous for him? He does practice long toss everyday, and about 15 minute pitching practice 4 - 5 days week. Too much?

I found a website, but haven't really read it yet:
http://safethrow.com/
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
i may catch some heat for this, but i'd have him skiping rocks, throwing rocks at bottles,etc. throwing should be fun and at 9 fun is what it is. even put some can's on the fence and throw ball's at em, they learn more when they don't know their learning. Wink

when we took a team to cooperstown dreams park, we had compititions for the event's. the golden arm was a throw from cf to a bullseye at home. the kids loved the compition and got a workout at the same time.
Last edited by 20dad
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
There is no doubt that throwing strengthens the arm. Who is arguing that point.
I do not agree with GM regarding that the lower velocity thrown (by pitching) by 9-10 year olds doesn't cause injury. Pitching motion is not a natural motion, mechanics are very important and 9 and 10 year olds do not have perfect mechanics. Impossible. Do you know how many years it takes to develop proper mechanics to avoid injury? Years. My 23 year old is still being tweaked all of the time. There's no way a 9-10 year old can have all the parts doing the right thing at the same time.

Throwing (not pitching), never hurt anyone.

I agree with 20dad, a 9-10 year old can have fun throwing off of the baseball field. Other activities should be incorporated in a young players routine. No one is looking to sign a 9,10 year old.
Last edited by TPM
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
I do not agree with GM regarding that the lower velocity thrown (by pitching) by 9-10 year olds doesn't cause injury.


I can't quite recall a time "ever" when a 9-10 year old kid needed surgery from pitching. The velocities generated by 9-10 year olds just starting out is nowhere close to the level required to tear ligaments or break bones in their bodies.

"Injury" is different than fatigue or muscle stress- that which is normal from working muscles. Injury means that you have overused the muscle or bone to the point where there is chronic or persistant pain because of large muscle tears or cracked or chipped bones that requires weeks to months or even years to heal. 9-10 year olds just do not put those kinds of pressures on their arms that would generate chronic injuries. Chronic injury usually happens (if it is going to happen at all) when they start to mature and go through puberty between ages 11-15 and they are not in a properly conditioned situation to be throwing the way they are throwing. This can be because of overuse, improper mechanics, improper warming up, improper diet and rest, etc.

I would just about bet that anyone who later got tj surgery or were chronically injured from pitching was not because they started pitching at 9 or 10. It was because they overpitched their arms by not being in a condition to throw as many and as hard as they threw. Some pitch counts are so high and pitches thrown extra hard that no amount of conditioning can prepare the arm against injury. But 9-10 year olds pitching 40-50 pitches every other day are just never going to be in that boat, and nowhere close. Their bodies are just not biologically able to generate the velocities that are going to do permanent damage to an arm.
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
quote:
But 9-10 year olds pitching 40-50 pitches every other day are just never going to be in that boat,


i don't disagree 100%, but never say never.
i would geuss if you asked an injured player how long he's been playing, 95% of them would say forever.




quote
I would just about bet that anyone who later got tj surgery or were chronically injured from pitching was not because they started pitching at 9 or 10. It was because they overpitched their arms by not being in a condition to throw as many and as hard as they threw.
----------------------------------------------------


my point was not about a 10 yr old getting injured. but what can happen to a 20 yr old pitching to much since he was 9. your right it doesn't happen to all,it doesn't happen overnight. it does happen though.

i just put it out there, you can use it. or send it back. your choice. Smile





everything is alway's good ........till it isn't.
Last edited by 20dad
D deaconspoint100+ posts
Thanks for all the well thought out and well meaning responses. This is a valuable asset for a dad who just wants to see his boy have fun. And for him right now pitching is fun!! Catching is too, and so is playing first base, and so is throwing rocks at the deer feeder for what seems like hours. :-)

The good news is that this is just a short lived issue. The tournament will be over soon and life will be back to normal or something close to it.

While I've got you all here, any comments on the young mans mechanics?

Aidan on the mound

The laughing is coming from the catcher's dad(coach). :-)

Tim
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
Although my son showed he was a very advanced catcher for his age, I never caught him and pitched him in the same weekend until he was 13. If he pitched, or was scheduled to pitch, I played him in the OF to strengthen as well as rest his arm.

Now that he is a frosh in HS, he catches and sometimes pitches. I think his future might be on the mound.
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
Originally posted by Yankeelvr:

Have you consulted with many 10 yo players ? While in the big scheme of things, NO baseball may really be important, I'd wager these games mean a great deal to the players and the development of their confidence.
----------------------------------------------

I'd wager that wins at 10yo mean a lot more to the fathers than to the players. They might cry for a couple of minutes after a tough loss but some dads stew over it for weeks.

I don't think a kids confidence or developement come from wins or loses, it comes from putting in the work and individual successes.
D danocaster10+ posts
This my oldest child- so it's all uncharted territory for me. The thing that I wonder is this: If my son is a pretty good baseball player, loves playing it and talks about "one day when I'm in the big leagues" (as we all did at that age)- do I owe it to him to help him as much as possible with things like pitching and hitting mechanics? I know that bad habits are really tough to break.... or, just throw a nugget or two out there, leave him alone about it and let him have fun, and worry about later when it comes?

I don't want to live vicariously through my children, but as parents, we all want to help our kids as much as possible.

Right now, I'm not suggesting practice to him. We only do it when he comes to me and asks, or when he has team practice. I don't want to burn him out.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Here is one article I came up with.

http://kdka.com/health/basebal...juries.2.759074.html

FWIW, my son's BF mom told me when down in Alabama many years ago, Dr. Andrews was already treating 9 and 10 year old pitchers for injury. I do beleive there in those injuries has resulted in current recommendations. I do beleive there have been 9 and 10 years olds requiring surgery down in Alabama. Also while up in STL last summer, the doctor told me the best thing I ever did for son was limit his pitching time when younger (he began at 8-9) and play other sports.
No issues with young players pitching and throwing off days, the issue has become pitching AND catching at the same time. This, IMO, is overuse, the biggest culprit to injuries for young players.
D deaconspoint100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bretzke:
Tim-
How's his control?

His plant foot needs to point more towards home plate.

The head snap suggests he is throwing mostly with arm.

Brian


Control is quite good considering his age and that he does not work on pitching much at all. Basically throws with me a lot and whatever he's doing he does pretty consistently. This is not meant as a brag, but I am proud of him. He has just started pitching more in games recently. So far with 8 innings pitched in 3 games, he's had three kids put a bat on the ball. One ground ball to first, one ground ball to second, a bunt straight back to him and three walks. Everything else has been a K. He's better than he should be with me as a teacher that's for certain.

Thank you for pointing out the head snap. It does look kind of violent. I will look at other vids and see if this is common among them all. The toe pointing to mitt at landing is something we have worked on and you're right, he's kind of closed here. I have been meaning to work on the big hole in front of the mound or explain to him to land elsewhere. I think that hole may not be helping his landing in proper form.

All this sounds kind of serious when talking about a 10yo, but it really is the kind of info he needs. He is having a blast pitching and the little things help him have even more fun.

Sad, but I miss watching him catch. :-)

Tim
Last edited by deaconspoint
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Here is one article I came up with.

http://kdka.com/health/basebal...juries.2.759074.html

FWIW, my son's BF mom told me when down in Alabama many years ago, Dr. Andrews was already treating 9 and 10 year old pitchers for injury. I do beleive there in those injuries has resulted in current recommendations. I do beleive there have been 9 and 10 years olds requiring surgery down in Alabama. Also while up in STL last summer, the doctor told me the best thing I ever did for son was limit his pitching time when younger (he began at 8-9) and play other sports.
No issues with young players pitching and throwing off days, the issue has become pitching AND catching at the same time. This, IMO, is overuse, the biggest culprit to injuries for young players.


I will agree with you on that last paragraph. You mentioned that injury happens to players who both pitch and catch at the same time (same game). Overuse from "throwing hard" in too close of a timeframe without recovery from fatigue and normal muscle stress is what leads to chronic pain. Two years ago I took my kid off of a travel team because son was being used to much at the pitching position. The wierd part of it at the time was that I took him off mainly because other parts of his body were getting sore from pitching (legs, side, back, and especially the heels of his feet) too much over short periods of time. His arm was never in pain but I worried that his other body parts hurting would lead into bad pitching mechanic adjustments to aleviate some fatigue which would then in turn lead into arm pain. The move to take him off the team was a good one. I felt bad for the other starting pitcher- he had to pitch more to make up for the slack which compounded that teams problems.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
I have been meaning to work on the big hole in front of the mound or explain to him to land elsewhere. I think that hole may not be helping his landing in proper form.


Landing is so crucial to pitching as they get older. Before games i will always walk out to the mound and either fix it or attempt to. I made a big stink last year in our league about the bad mound conditions and how it was harming the pitchers and the park and rec guys fixed the issue. Lats year several kids ended up having back issues because of their landing akward. As pitchers get older certain things mentally become very important for them or it bothers the **** out of them in a game. One of the big things is the mound condition- if they are slipping due to a bad dirt pack, or the wrong angle of their landing spot, or some little pebbles that seem to keep creeping back into their landing area. Over the coarse of a game, those little mound problems become the pitchers number one concern (trust me I have been there a hundred times) and then they start failing physically (not hitting spots, poise is not there, etc) because they get overly concerned about their landing or pivot area.

Do yourself a big favor and go out and fix the mounds your kid pitches from so that it doesn't become a mental challenge for them to worry about in big games.
P pioneers310+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by deaconspoint:
quote:
Originally posted by Bretzke:
Tim-
How's his control?

His plant foot needs to point more towards home plate.

The head snap suggests he is throwing mostly with arm.

Brian


Control is quite good considering his age and that he does not work on pitching much at all. Basically throws with me a lot and whatever he's doing he does pretty consistently. This is not meant as a brag, but I am proud of him. He has just started pitching more in games recently. So far with 8 innings pitched in 3 games, he's had three kids put a bat on the ball. One ground ball to first, one ground ball to second, a bunt straight back to him and three walks. Everything else has been a K. He's better than he should be with me as a teacher that's for certain.

Thank you for pointing out the head snap. It does look kind of violent. I will look at other vids and see if this is common among them all. The toe pointing to mitt at landing is something we have worked on and you're right, he's kind of closed here. I have been meaning to work on the big hole in front of the mound or explain to him to land elsewhere. I think that hole may not be helping his landing in proper form.

All this sounds kind of serious when talking about a 10yo, but it really is the kind of info he needs. He is having a blast pitching and the little things help him have even more fun.

Sad, but I miss watching him catch. :-)

Tim


PLEASE, and I MEAN PLESE!! Don't tell your son to point his foot at home!! Don't watch what the foot is doing, it is not important, watch what his hips are doing, you want him to land with his hips and shoulders in a straight line towards home than at foot strike pop hips and rotate on the axes as quick as possible! If your son starts pointing his toe than his hips are going to open, and than he will throw all arm which will lead to a higher chance of injury to the shoulder!
J jmart266310+ posts
You guys REALLY need to do some research into kids pitching and throwing. The #1 cause for injury is overuse whether it be from pitching, throwing, throwing from catcher position or any position. The injuries don't show up when they are 9 or 10 or 11 they show up when they are 16, 17 and 18 playing in the HS team and those 16, 17 and 18 year old kids who are getting rotator cuff surgery, TJ surgery, etc.., NEVER knew the damage they did to themselves at 9, 10, 11, 12 etc..! There is a wealth of information available on the internet pertaining to this stuff and ANY parent whose kid plays baseball OWES it to the kid to educate themseslves about this stuff. Under NO circumstances would I ever allow ANY 10 year old I had influence over to pitch 50 pitches 3 times a week. It simply isn't worth it. If he is a good pitcher teach him proper mechanics and let him pitch BUT DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES allow hime to be overused. If my 10 year old were going to pitch twice a week I would not allow him to exceed 35 pitches in the first outing and his pitch count would be limited to 50 in the 2nd. If he went over 35 in the 1st outing he would NOT pitch in the 2nd without 5 full days of rest. If you realy believe the kid has a chance to be a pitcher in HS why in the world would you take the risk of causing injuries that won't be realized until he is a teen at 10 years old? Playing catch or a good long toss session or two between outings will help strengthen the arm and aid in his performance as he grows older but ALL repetitive overhand throwing motions can and will cause injury especially in young undeveloped growth plates!

Just my honest Opinion!


JM
G Gameth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Son will probably be pitching every three days, Sat, Tues, Friday. Probably 45-50 pitches max including between innings.

On the off days, should he throw at all, or should he rest the arm all together.

I hope this is not a stupid question. I truly don't know what is best. I know resting the arm shouldn't hurt him, but is it actually better in some way for him to continue with some light throwing?

Thanks in advance,

Tim

deaconspoint


Pitching two to three times a week with days off inbetween is fine. Kid should throw on off days (every day he should be throwing some) at this age as to condition the arm. When i say throwing I mean that he should go out and play catch and get his arm in motion and warmed up.

My son has been pitching since he was 9 2-3 times a week with similar pitch counts you have mentioned. He has almost always thrown on off days when the weather permits. The arm needs to get used to the throwing motion to develop good muscle memory and strength and that only happens by repetiotion.

Ever been to a pro-ball game? You watch the players and they will work out with bands and excersizes and then throw for quite some time (30-40 minutes) most of which are relatively pretty hard throws. They will go out and do this every single day, they do not take a break. But, they are also condiotioned to go out and throw hard every day.

One of the interesting phenomenons about muscle and bone growth is that they both know each other and they will both work in harmony. It's kind of natures way of protection. By this I mean that you take your normal 10 year old kid and he will only be able to throw as hard as his skeletal development is established. The muscles will not directly overpower what the bones can handle.

This translates into this- Kids (9-10 yr. olds)start out throwing at velocities that do not overstress the muscles and bones. They are not really damaging anything by throwing. They may have some muscle fatigue from time to time which is absolutely normal. Kids at this age just do not have the veolcities that can do damage to muscle and bones. Most 10 year olds throw about mid 50's if they are good. Throwing every other day for three to four innings at that age is just not going to ever damage a kids arm. How many 10 year olds are in need of tommy john surgery? None! They just don't throw hard enough.

As kids get older, then you need to be better at conditioning their arms- to make them stronger and less prone to injury. Better care in warming up and stretching out as they get older before they start throwing in a game is the key.

My 13 year old still throws pretty much every day including pitching in either a game or bullpen every other day.

Let me ask you this- Do marathon runners after they get done running go and sit in wheelchairs or lay in bed for the next 24 hrs? No, they may rest but they are still very active and are walking or jogging around the very next day. This is because they are condiotioned for it. Just because you pitch on one day doesn't mean that you have to put your arm in a sling until you throw again (unless it truly is injured) two days later. I personally believe kids should learn how to throw so that they can throw every day whenever they want to without any pain or injury.

Kids today just don't throw enough (notice that I didn't say pitch). The throwing motion when playing catch is harmless and is actually beneficial to arm strength and longevity. Pitching at 100% effort is a max effort event and as your kid matures and starts to reach that threshold (about the age of 12-13) then you will need to get picky about how much he pitches and what he is doing to condition himself better for pitching events. There is a difference between pitching on game days and "just throwing" on off days and that should be remebered. Every kid who is properly conditioned could go out and make a 100 throws in a day every day forever without injury, but no one can go out and throw at 100% max effort everyday without some recovery from fatigue and stress.


I can not believe what I just read! Anyone looking to protect their kids future, please do not read this above post. How in God's name can you compare a 10 year old to an adult? We are not talking about muscles and bone! We are talking about growth plate fragmentation! To say a 10 year old kid can't throw hard enough to injure his/her arm is nuts!

Damage to the growth plate is noticed later during the ages of 13-17. BTW there is no Tommy John surgery for a 10 year old because the UCL doesn't tear. Its not the weak link, the attachment to the bone is and it tears off or fragments. Look up avulsion fracture.

100 throws everyday forever? With what intensity? Don't give me **** about pros doing it, we are not talking about mature athletes with growth plates that are closed and solid bone. We are talking about cartilage plates and attachments.

Please educate yourself on a subject before you go off spouting your bravado on youth anatomy which could cause damage to a young athlete.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
I can not believe what I just read! Anyone looking to protect their kids future, please do not read this above post. How in God's name can you compare a 10 year old to an adult? We are not talking about muscles and bone! We are talking about growth plate fragmentation! To say a 10 year old kid can't throw hard enough to injure his/her arm is nuts!

Damage to the growth plate is noticed later during the ages of 13-17. BTW there is no Tommy John surgery for a 10 year old because the UCL doesn't tear. Its not the weak link, the attachment to the bone is and it tears off or fragments. Look up avulsion fracture.

100 throws everyday forever? With what intensity? Don't give me **** about pros doing it, we are not talking about mature athletes with growth plates that are closed and solid bone. We are talking about cartilage plates and attachments.

Please educate yourself on a subject before you go off spouting your bravado on youth anatomy which could cause damage to a young athlete.


I guess we should all just play it safe and make it illegal to even pick up a baseball before a kid reaches his junior year in HS. Ya that will work!

I just do not believe all the theories about kids who need surgery as 15-18 year olds as directly stemming fromt he damage they caused themselves at 9-10 years old. It's all a bunch of **** and thats my honest opinion. Sorry if you don't like it!

My comparison to grown adults was in the perspective of this very inportant fact- I said adults throw hard everyday because they are "conditioned to do so". Training as an youth should be to emphasize mirroring what adults do- and that means they need to learn how to condition their arm from injury by throwing more and building good muscle memory and stronger muscles.

There is nothing worse than a youth pitcher on the mound and throwing hard but lacks the physical conditioning to maintain that velocity over the coarse of his pitch outing. Often times, (and I have seen it tons)the pitcher will pitch too long for waht he is conditioned for and will end up pitching through pain and fatigue- the two most common risk factors leading to injury or even surgery.

I am sure there are some anomalies in youth pitchers- we have all seen the 12 year old stud who can throw 80mph on TV in the LLWS. We all have also probably seen the 10 year old phenom who throws upper 60's or low 70's. But those are few and far between. My post deals more with the average 9-10 year old who brings the "slow heat" with the fb registering mostly below 50 mph. At that velocity, coupled with strict "pitch counts" kids that age are just not in a danger zone for permanent damage or surgery. If I am wrong then every little league organization in the country should be sued!

Let me honestly ask you this-

Is it bad for kids at the age of 9-10 to pitch in games?
G Gameth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
I can not believe what I just read! Anyone looking to protect their kids future, please do not read this above post. How in God's name can you compare a 10 year old to an adult? We are not talking about muscles and bone! We are talking about growth plate fragmentation! To say a 10 year old kid can't throw hard enough to injure his/her arm is nuts!

Damage to the growth plate is noticed later during the ages of 13-17. BTW there is no Tommy John surgery for a 10 year old because the UCL doesn't tear. Its not the weak link, the attachment to the bone is and it tears off or fragments. Look up avulsion fracture.

100 throws everyday forever? With what intensity? Don't give me **** about pros doing it, we are not talking about mature athletes with growth plates that are closed and solid bone. We are talking about cartilage plates and attachments.

Please educate yourself on a subject before you go off spouting your bravado on youth anatomy which could cause damage to a young athlete.


I guess we should all just play it safe and make it illegal to even pick up a baseball before a kid reaches his junior year in HS. Ya that will work!

I just do not believe all the theories about kids who need surgery as 15-18 year olds as directly stemming fromt he damage they caused themselves at 9-10 years old. It's all a bunch of **** and thats my honest opinion. Sorry if you don't like it!

My comparison to grown adults was in the perspective of this very inportant fact- I said adults throw hard everyday because they are "conditioned to do so". Training as an youth should be to emphasize mirroring what adults do- and that means they need to learn how to condition their arm from injury by throwing more and building good muscle memory and stronger muscles.

There is nothing worse than a youth pitcher on the mound and throwing hard but lacks the physical conditioning to maintain that velocity over the coarse of his pitch outing. Often times, (and I have seen it tons)the pitcher will pitch too long for waht he is conditioned for and will end up pitching through pain and fatigue- the two most common risk factors leading to injury or even surgery.

I am sure there are some anomalies in youth pitchers- we have all seen the 12 year old stud who can throw 80mph on TV in the LLWS. We all have also probably seen the 10 year old phenom who throws upper 60's or low 70's. But those are few and far between. My post deals more with the average 9-10 year old who brings the "slow heat" with the fb registering mostly below 50 mph. At that velocity, coupled with strict "pitch counts" kids that age are just not in a danger zone for permanent damage or surgery. If I am wrong then every little league organization in the country should be sued!

Let me honestly ask you this-

Is it bad for kids at the age of 9-10 to pitch in games?


Not sure where I stated that kids should not pitch and should just play it safe. Perhaps you can point that out for us?

Okay, you have your opinion. I will give you that, but I will not put any value into it when it is unfounded and against what the "top surgeons in the country" that deal with these injuries every day are reporting.

It is obvious that you have no formal education on human anatomy or biomechanics so why should anyone follow your "opinion?"

Not trying to be rude, just asking where you get the idea that you can make statements that could harm a young player and your resource is: its my opinion?

Your reply really is all over the place. Conditioning to maintain velocity. What? Was that even a point? So if a "youth pitcher" can maintain velocity he is not in danger of injury?

Then you say that we need strict pitch counts. Yeah, didn't we already mention that and you disagreed earlier?

Then you state, "Training as an youth should be to emphasize mirroring what adults do." This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start!

Adult and pediatric training in no way should be mirrored! I'm going to just laugh at that one and leave it alone.

I suppose your opinion is that osgood schlatters is a **** theory also.
G Gameth10+ posts
I am all about education so here is a link for anyone who is interested in the growth plate closure ages at the elbow. Remember these are biological ages so they have a +/- of about 2 years on them.

Please also remember that we are concerned with growth plate micro trauma when throwing not so much with muscle strains. Those usually heal up fine with rest. Joint damage can be permanent.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/97101-diagnosis
Last edited by Gameth
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Not sure where I stated that kids should not pitch and should just play it safe. Perhaps you can point that out for us?

Okay, you have your opinion. I will give you that, but I will not put any value into it when it is unfounded and against what the "top surgeons in the country" that deal with these injuries every day are reporting.

It is obvious that you have no formal education on human anatomy or biomechanics so why should anyone follow your "opinion?"

Not trying to be rude, just asking where you get the idea that you can make statements that could harm a young player and your resource is: its my opinion?

Your reply really is all over the place. Conditioning to maintain velocity. What? Was that even a point? So if a "youth pitcher" can maintain velocity he is not in danger of injury?

Then you say that we need strict pitch counts. Yeah, didn't we already mention that and you disagreed earlier?

Then you state, "Training as an youth should be to emphasize mirroring what adults do." This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start!

Adult and pediatric training in no way should be mirrored! I'm going to just laugh at that one and leave it alone.

I suppose your opinion is that osgood schlatters is a **** theory also.


The conditioning I am speaking of is being conditioned to maitain velocity in a game without harm to the arm!

By strict pitch counts I am referring to a person by person basis and not letting them "pitch" beyond the point of fatigue or arm pain.

When i state that kids should mirror what professional athletes do I am not meaning that they should go out and train "exactly" like they do. You take everything out of proper context- its no wonder we disagree!

I am speaking in terms of kids should look to older athletes and what they are doing to train and condition and then follow similar suit. Lets break this down more specifically so we don't misunderstnad each other.

For instance- If a pro athlete pitcher stretches with bands then it may be a good idea for youth pitchers to also stretch with bands.

If a pro pitcher has great follow through on his pitches then it may be a good idea to train youth pitchers to also follow through on their pitches.

If a pro pitcher throws a fair amount on off days to keep his arm healthy then it may be a good idea for youth pitchers to throw on off days to keep their arms healthy.

If a pro pitcher goes a long ways in the pros without serious injury it may be a good idea to train youth repeating his mechanics in part or in whole.

I could go on and on but I hope you get the drift of what i am speaking of.

You still make it sound like kids should not even pick up a baseball at all!
Last edited by Gingerbread Man

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