34 player rosters-one opinion

@adbono posted:

You are certainly free to disagree with @d-mac, but he is right. Unless a relationship is involved, the more desirable summer collegiate leagues want to see proven production from JuCo players from their JuCo season. Until then JuCo players are considered unproven - regardless of who may have also recruited them.

Yes, I agree that the summer collegiate leagues, especially the more desirable ones, will want to see proven production from the juco season before adding them to the roster. What I was trying to get across, and maybe I still won't at this point, is that 4-year college coaches don't completely ignore juco freshman. It's absolutely impossible when they're playing on the same field and at the same time as the juco sophomores (unless of course only sophomores are on the field playing). I imagine they may be scouting out a specific sophomore and should only have eyes for sophomores, but I've heard too many times about another player being noticed. Freshman may be unavailable, but if I saw a freshman with some legit tools and potential...pretty sure I'd make note of it.

@Momball11 posted:

Yes, I agree that the summer collegiate leagues, especially the more desirable ones, will want to see proven production from the juco season before adding them to the roster. What I was trying to get across, and maybe I still won't at this point, is that 4-year college coaches don't completely ignore juco freshman. It's absolutely impossible when they're playing on the same field and at the same time as the juco sophomores (unless of course only sophomores are on the field playing). I imagine they may be scouting out a specific sophomore and should only have eyes for sophomores, but I've heard too many times about another player being noticed. Freshman may be unavailable, but if I saw a freshman with some legit tools and potential...pretty sure I'd make note of it.

@momball11 you are correct. it will depend on the tools (player) and the needs of the target school.

Here is McLennan 2023 class.

Note, we've been cleaning up the grad classes for the juco rosters.  Their data is not clean.

@Momball11 posted:

So for the most part my son's school has been a good fit and most things they said are as we were told.

One thing we asked was if they assisted with summer league placement. The answer was a definite, yes, absolutely. My son has a particular league that he wants to try and get into. That league suggested players have their coaches contact teams in the league before October 1st. So he went to his coaches with the contact information for those teams before October 1st. His coaches responded that he would need to "earn it". His fall season has ended and he was consistently on the "travel" squad, had his post season coach-meeting and was told they like what they see and expect to contribute in the spring. Now from the sounds of it, many of the summer league teams he was hoping to play for have already locked up their rosters.

It would have been nice to have been told, "we'll help you with getting on a summer league, but at our convenience and discretion"

We now know...what to expect in terms of their assistance with eventually finding a spot at a 4-year program because we will assume it will be similar to the way they "assist" with summer league placement.

I mean if your son tells them I want to play in the Cape they don't just snap their fingers and make it happen. For the more prestigious leagues anyone will have to earn it. Coach isn't going to place him in a league where he doesn't belong - it would destroy his credibility. So yes, it is at their discretion, they are the ones who coordinate it.

Many coaches have relationships with teams. The programs mine are part of may have sent 5 to the Cape every year but they typically had 3 slots for one team and 2 for another. They usually have a pretty good idea of where the returning players will be for the upcoming summer. The freshmen are more likely to fill the voids based on their fall. If they really do well in the spring they're more likely to backfill dropouts in the higher profile leagues

@PABaseball posted:

I mean if your son tells them I want to play in the Cape they don't just snap their fingers and make it happen. For the more prestigious leagues anyone will have to earn it. Coach isn't going to place him in a league where he doesn't belong - it would destroy his credibility. So yes, it is at their discretion, they are the ones who coordinate it.

Many coaches have relationships with teams. The programs mine are part of may have sent 5 to the Cape every year but they typically had 3 slots for one team and 2 for another. They usually have a pretty good idea of where the returning players will be for the upcoming summer. The freshmen are more likely to fill the voids based on their fall. If they really do well in the spring they're more likely to backfill dropouts in the higher profile leagues

Definitely agree with you about a coach's discretion and needing to protect their credibility. I think the coaches initially responded this way because son asked them at a time when they were probably too busy. Fall season was still under way.  They have since spoken with him and said they'd absolutely help him out and to just send them a list of who to contact. Son isn't trying to go Cape. It's a league he's observed quite a bit and feels is at the appropriate level where he'd get a good balance of development and playing time.

When talking with a prospective coach/school, what does a recruit ask?  What summer leagues are you associated with?  How many kids on the team get placed on a summer team?  How does the summer team work?

@adbono posted:

You are certainly free to disagree with @d-mac, but he is right. Unless a relationship is involved, the more desirable summer collegiate leagues want to see proven production from JuCo players from their JuCo season. Until then JuCo players are considered unproven - regardless of who may have also recruited them.

@Momball11 I don't know your situation, but I don't think summer ball is in scope pre-spring for a juco freshman unless they were a draft prospect, high profile player or have an existing relationship with a summer team coach. His results on the field or projection coupled his work ethic will define his future path.

My son had an amazing experience in both juco and D1, but IMO recruiting coaches present what "could happen" not what "will happen" unless it's in writing. Recruiting, better know as sales is the transfer of the sellers excitement to the buyer - regardless of product, typically not everything heard in a sales pitch is going to feel the same way after the deal is closed.

Good luck this season!

@Dadof3 posted:

When talking with a prospective coach/school, what does a recruit ask?  What summer leagues are you associated with?  How many kids on the team get placed on a summer team?  How does the summer team work?

It all depends on the program. It should be discussed during recruiting.

The highest ranked players might end up on the cape, top ranked draft prospects may get a chance to try out for USA Baseball and many do take the summers off.  Most coaches should have the discussion during recruiting and use it as a tool to get the player to their program and once again it's all relevant to the players skill. It's especially important for redshirt freshman to get out and play.  And again, it does depend on coaching  relationships with certain summer leagues.

I think that Momball now understands the process. They live in an area with an excellent summer league and her son wants to be close to home and for all of you that have players who go out of state, I am sure everyone gets that. She never mentioned anything about the Cape, so not sure why that was brought up.

The process also is obviously different for Juco vs D1, D2 players.

Here in Florida many of the Juco guys join travel teams to be seen by college coaches.

@Dadof3 posted:

When talking with a prospective coach/school, what does a recruit ask?  What summer leagues are you associated with?  How many kids on the team get placed on a summer team?  How does the summer team work?

I had never even heard of collegiate summer ball before my son applied to college, but fortunately he had.  He asked each coach (these were D3) what their players did in the summer.  Answers ranged from "many play summer ball, here are the leagues where I send them" to "many do internships, if you want to play close to home you can figure it out yourself."

There are so many different levels of summer ball that if your son is serious about it, you should do bit of research before going in.  For example, some summer leagues charge fees and don't provide housing; others charge no fees and do provide housing and food.  The latter are the ones that coaches need to arrange.

The thing about collegiate summer leagues is that you won’t know what is best for YOUR KID until his spring season is over. It could be that he played so much in the spring that he needs the summer to rest and recover. That was the case with my son - and I never anticipated that being  a possibility. To have your bases covered it’s best to have something lined up now in case it’s the preferred path in 6 months. It’s also best if arrangements can be made now w/o any financial commitments. What you really want is an option - and most coaches aren’t going to be any help with that. My advice would be to arrange something yourself and then decide later if it makes sense to follow thru with it. A phone call, text, or email to the league director would be a place to start. The director will know which teams have full rosters and which teams don’t. That’s what I did and it worked out fine.

I've said it in previous threads on the topic of summer ball, but have your sons wait as long as possible to sign their contract for summer ball. Basically what @adbono said.

So much can change between the fall and May. For example let's say you're a kid doesn't have a good year and is told to find a new home. You don't want to play in a league that coaches/recruiters don't recruit from. For example the Hampton's league. Nice place, but difficult to get to. Coaches probably can't see many players that it makes it worth it to travel there.

Last year my soph son didn't play in the fall because he was rehabbing from an injury, he didn't get assigned (and didn't want to be) assigned anywhere. Had a good start of season, transitioned to Friday starter, and was either going to play in the NECBL or CCBL (I'm sure would have been a temp contract then to the the NECBL). Got hurt, had TJ.

This season he's hoping to be back by the middle of conference play, and is assigned to a NECBL team for the summer. Who knows, he may not face batters until the summer.

Also seems like summer ball is different now than it was 3,5,7,10, etc years ago. With the portal the way it is, coaches don't want their players poached over the summer, and kids don't want to play 50+ games after playing a full college season. Your son has to do what's right for them, while not pissing off their college coach....

Don't be worried about signing a contract and then not being able to go due to some issue. There's always a player waiting in the wings.

@TPM posted:

Don't be worried about signing a contract and then not being able to go due to some issue. There's always a player waiting in the wings.

Sure, but 1) They may not let you out of the contract. And 2) Some leagues cost money that you won't get back.....

So worry about signing a contract unless neither is important to you and your son.

Other than being offered a spot in the CCBL, MLB collegiate league, or potentially pissing off your college HC, not a lot of good reasons to commit/sign in the fall. JMO.

Nycdad,

will your son face the Summer League hitters next Spring?

Does he have a “book” on all strong hitters he has Faced in Summer Leagues?
For his success, You and your son will need to develop a situational pitching strategy.

Bob

@nycdad posted:

Sure, but 1) They may not let you out of the contract. And 2) Some leagues cost money that you won't get back.....

So worry about signing a contract unless neither is important to you and your son.

Other than being offered a spot in the CCBL, MLB collegiate league, or potentially pissing off your college HC, not a lot of good reasons to commit/sign in the fall. JMO.

Depends on how your HC handles agreements with the summer league organization.

Always a good idea to ask those questions. But sometimes circumstances arrive in which player is unable to go.

My recollection is that there is informal placement based on the previous year's or (in the case of freshman) summer's performance through a series of phone calls between coaches; the actual paperwork starts arriving around March.  That's when they need to start organizing host families, etc.  You'll see roster announcements starting then as well.

@RHP_Parent posted:

My recollection is that there is informal placement based on the previous year's or (in the case of freshman) summer's performance through a series of phone calls between coaches; the actual paperwork starts arriving around March.  That's when they need to start organizing host families, etc.  You'll see roster announcements starting then as well.

You are probably correct.  Also to note many programs have standing roster spots to fill each year on different teams in same league.

As I mentioned. It comes down to relationships. So for example, if your son throws too many innings as a freshman  the coach would have the ability send another player in his place.

  @TPM is spot on about how relationships play into placing players in collegiate summer leagues. But those relationships are much more likely to exist between summer leagues/teams and 4 year school coaches than with JuCo coaches. @JucoDad is spot on regarding the posture of JuCo coaches when talking to their players about summer placements. They are much more likely to talk about what is possible than they are to actually do something. They aren’t going to advocate for an unproven player.
  It’s almost like the people that have been there and done that give really good advice. Crazy how that works!

@adbono posted:

The thing about collegiate summer leagues is that you won’t know what is best for YOUR KID until his spring season is over. It could be that he played so much in the spring that he needs the summer to rest and recover. That was the case with my son - and I never anticipated that being  a possibility. To have your bases covered it’s best to have something lined up now in case it’s the preferred path in 6 months. It’s also best if arrangements can be made now w/o any financial commitments. What you really want is an option - and most coaches aren’t going to be any help with that. My advice would be to arrange something yourself and then decide later if it makes sense to follow thru with it. A phone call, text, or email to the league director would be a place to start. The director will know which teams have full rosters and which teams don’t. That’s what I did and it worked out fine.

I was going to add that the majority of my son's JUCO teammates did not play Summer ball.   They had a full Fall along with brutal Fall workouts and a season that went to the very end of postseason play.  They were all toast.

@d-mac posted:

I was going to add that the majority of my son's JUCO teammates did not play Summer ball.   They had a full Fall along with brutal Fall workouts and a season that went to the very end of postseason play.  They were all toast.

I think that's the standard in any program, especially when it goes to the end of the post season.

Walter Beede take

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1C5_WulkRg

The challenge of 34 man roster for the fall season is timing of HC hiring:

Of the 43 HC hirings (infograph is missing Alabama A&M notification, 40 occurred in

25 - June

11 - July

2 (May, Sept, Oct)

1 - Oct

thus the new coach would not have the flexibility pick his player for the fall.

Note,

SEC officially announced they will not fund the extra 20 football scholarships.  Title 9 is still a huge hurdle.  

Skimmed the video posted above by @CollegebaseballInsights

The 1 new piece of information I gathered was the video creator seems to be certain that the 34 man roster will be submitted on the 1st day of fall classes and that is who you are riding with until the next season?

I was looking at the 2025 PG commit lists for some of the schools in my home state.

Schools ranged from 11 (UF, FSU) to 18 (UM)!

So we all know there is no way Miami is going to war in the ACC with a roster that is more than 50% freshmen. So those 18 kids that signed this week and took photos with their family in Miami gear seem to be living in purgatory.

And once they start getting chopped the dominoes will just be starting to fall. Going to be a giant game of musical chairs until the fall of 2025.

@DaddyBaller posted:

Skimmed the video posted above by @CollegebaseballInsights

The 1 new piece of information I gathered was the video creator seems to be certain that the 34 man roster will be submitted on the 1st day of fall classes and that is who you are riding with until the next season?

I was looking at the 2025 PG commit lists for some of the schools in my home state.

Schools ranged from 11 (UF, FSU) to 18 (UM)!

So we all know there is no way Miami is going to war in the ACC with a roster that is more than 50% freshmen. So those 18 kids that signed this week and took photos with their family in Miami gear seem to be living in purgatory.

And once they start getting chopped the dominoes will just be starting to fall. Going to be a giant game of musical chairs until the fall of 2025.

@DaddyBaller  as stated above, the problem with the hard cap of 34 for the fall season is that you are limiting new HC ability to recruit and evaluate his roster.

With respect to Miami  here is there player turnover going into the 2025 season

Does any other college sport let kids go after bringing them on before the season starts?

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

@DaddyBaller  as stated above, the problem with the hard cap of 34 for the fall season is that you are limiting new HC ability to recruit and evaluate his roster.

I am not saying that the hard cap of 34 on the first day of fall classes makes sense.

I am only repeating what Beade said in the video.

If this were to be put in to place it would be going from one extreme to another. We shall see where the NCAA ends up on this.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

the problem with the hard cap of 34 for the fall season is that you are limiting new HC ability to recruit and evaluate his roster.

Well, the question is who should the NCAA be prioritizing, the fully-grown adult making a 6-7 figure salary on a multi-year contract, or the athletes having their first experience living away from home and potentially having to find a new school after one semester. Sorry, I'm playing the tiniest violin for the new HC. He can just deal with the hard cap IMO. But the NCAA never prioritizes athletes so no surprise if they end up going the route of making things convenient for the HC.

My understanding is that coaches need and want more arms in the fall for practice.

@TPM posted:

My understanding is that coaches need and want more arms in the fall for practice.

It's nice to want things.

The problem with that is no kid signs with a school to be an arm for fall practice. As one of our posters sadly just experienced.

I personally agree with @auberon . I'm cool with the 34 hard cap on day 1 of fall. Make coaches live with their decisions. That means both recruiting and understanding what they may be inheriting when they take a new job.

@DaddyBaller posted:

I am not saying that the hard cap of 34 on the first day of fall classes makes sense.

I am only repeating what Beade said in the video.

If this were to be put in to place it would be going from one extreme to another. We shall see where the NCAA ends up on this.

Kendal Rogers will be a little closer to the sources.

Note there were some inaccuracies in some of Beede's statistics

Locking a new coach to 34 spots will be a case of musical chairs turbocharged. 

College Fall Season is equivalent to MLB Spring Season.

@auberon posted:

Well, the question is who should the NCAA be prioritizing, the fully-grown adult making a 6-7 figure salary on a multi-year contract, or the athletes having their first experience living away from home and potentially having to find a new school after one semester. Sorry, I'm playing the tiniest violin for the new HC. He can just deal with the hard cap IMO. But the NCAA never prioritizes athletes so no surprise if they end up going the route of making things convenient for the HC.

@auberon Not realistic.

Student Athletes now realize it is a business with a limited safety net.

Here is a specific example, Campbell

Chris Marx was formally announced HC on July 10

59% turnover, remove the 5 that (graduated/ drafted)

25 players were brought in the compete.

@DaddyBaller posted:

I was looking at the 2025 PG commit lists for some of the schools in my home state.

Schools ranged from 11 (UF, FSU) to 18 (UM)!

So we all know there is no way Miami is going to war in the ACC with a roster that is more than 50% freshmen. So those 18 kids that signed this week and took photos with their family in Miami gear seem to be living in purgatory.

What other programs in your home state did you research?

Moving this from the other thread:

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Actually no.

New Coach (especially if it is an external hire) should be able to bring in X number of players that meet his playing style.

In the words of Bill Parcells  ""If they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries"

I don't agree.  Your word "should" is entirely arbitrary.  Why "should" a new coach get to do this, and screw over a lot of college athletes?

I would say a new coach "should" be expected to deal with what he inherits, and gradually build his program.

There are plenty of cooking competitions where you have to cook with what you have in the fridge, or with what someone else gives you.

@DaddyBaller posted:

It's nice to want things.

The problem with that is no kid signs with a school to be an arm for fall practice. As one of our posters sadly just experienced.

Maybe college baseball teams "should" be allowed to recruit some players just to be arms for fall practice.  Tell them that's their role, they get a "cup of coffee" at that school.  At least that would be more honest.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Actually no.

New Coach (especially if it is an external hire) should be able to bring in X number of players that meet his playing style.

In the words of Bill Parcells  ""If they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries"

Parcells said that when he left the Patriots because he couldn't get along with Robert Kraft. Parcells never made another Super Bowl while Kraft went on to win six of them, so maybe Parcells should have figured out how to get along with ownership.

But if you want to use what a pro coach said to justify what should happen in college, let's look at what actually happens in pro baseball. Pro baseball has a hard cap on the 40-man roster year-round. Teams don't get to stockpile players with false promises to take them off the market. If a player is offered a non-roster invite to spring training he knows exactly what that means, and if another team offers him a spot on the 40-man he's probably going to take that instead. Pro players have contracts, are represented by a union, aren't trying to get a college degree at the same time, and aren't being forced into university housing they may not be able to get out of mid-year. And while pro managers certainly have input on player evaluation, a prospective pro manager who tells the GM he needs to release half of the team so he can bring in guys who "meet his playing style" would get laughed out of the interview. If pro mangers can figure out how to coach the team they're given, college coaches can too.

@anotherparent posted:

Maybe college baseball teams "should" be allowed to recruit some players just to be arms for fall practice.  Tell them that's their role, they get a "cup of coffee" at that school.  At least that would be more honest.

Every P4 has students who played in high school and can throw in the 70s or 80s. Many would be happy to throw fall BP in exchange for a hat and t-shirt. And/or bring in pitchers from the club team.

Sorry folks, not sure if you understand, it's not about batting practice.

@anotherparent posted:

Moving this from the other thread:

I don't agree.  Your word "should" is entirely arbitrary.  Why "should" a new coach get to do this, and screw over a lot of college athletes?

I would say a new coach "should" be expected to deal with what he inherits, and gradually build his program.

There are plenty of cooking competitions where you have to cook with what you have in the fridge, or with what someone else gives you.

@anotherparent you don't have to agree.

The world has changed, life isn't gradual, due to the SCOTUS decisions college sports has forced to adjust their business model.

And the coach, specifically new coach that was hired between June and August should not be restricted to the hard cap of 34 for the fall season for the previous coaches recruiting decisions.

The math is pretty simple, fall rosters should be between 39 and 42

Agree with CBI.

Another point, when coaches get fired or leave, so do the players. Recruiting new players takes time, it doesn't happen overnight. The new coach has the right to find the players he wants for his particular program.

@auberon posted:

Parcells said that when he left the Patriots because he couldn't get along with Robert Kraft. Parcells never made another Super Bowl while Kraft went on to win six of them, so maybe Parcells should have figured out how to get along with ownership.

But if you want to use what a pro coach said to justify what should happen in college, let's look at what actually happens in pro baseball. Pro baseball has a hard cap on the 40-man roster year-round. Teams don't get to stockpile players with false promises to take them off the market. If a player is offered a non-roster invite to spring training he knows exactly what that means, and if another team offers him a spot on the 40-man he's probably going to take that instead. Pro players have contracts, are represented by a union, aren't trying to get a college degree at the same time, and aren't being forced into university housing they may not be able to get out of mid-year. And while pro managers certainly have input on player evaluation, a prospective pro manager who tells the GM he needs to release half of the team so he can bring in guys who "meet his playing style" would get laughed out of the interview. If pro mangers can figure out how to coach the team they're given, college coaches can too.

@auberon unfortunately financials is driving college sports, so it not like the college sports of yesterday.

Specific to the fall rosters, new coach will need the ability to pick up some extra groceries.

Some of the groceries might not be to his liking and that is ok.

@TPM posted:

Agree with CBI.

Another point, when coaches get fired or leave, so do the players. Recruiting new players takes time, it doesn't happen overnight. The new coach has the right to find the players he wants for his particular program.

@TPM and just to complicate matters, if a coaches leaves one program for another, some of the players that he recruited for the upcoming season at the old school might want to follow him to the new school.

The coach knowing what he want in a player has already done his due diligence in recruiting players that wants in his program.

Note, there is no good answer, but flexibility with the fall roster is required.  Note, they should not be able to have 50 players in the fall, thus IMHO between 39 to 42 should be allowed