34 player rosters-one opinion

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

@auberon unfortunately financials is driving college sports, so it not like the college sports of yesterday.

Specific to the fall rosters, new coach will need the ability to pick up some extra groceries.

Some of the groceries might not be to his liking and that is ok.

Financials is no excuse for over recruiting. Coaches just do it because they can and none of the adults in the room have told them they can't.

New coaches get sufficient open spots through graduation and transfers. Using your Campbell example, if there was a hard cap at 34 they would have only been able to bring in 17 new players instead of 25. 17 players is enough for the core of a team. The only difference with a hard cap would be 8 players who never had a chance wouldn't have derailed their college careers on false hopes.

CBI,

Well you and I understand that and so do many, many legit coaches. This is a business determined by the NCAA and University rules.

The info I received about 2026 roster size was from Rick (after I asked the pcoach at Florida who was with 2025 recruits). He did mention until the House Settlement happens there is no definite decision for 2025- 2026 season.

@auberon posted:

Financials is no excuse for over recruiting. Coaches just do it because they can and none of the adults in the room have told them they can't.

New coaches get sufficient open spots through graduation and transfers. Using your Campbell example, if there was a hard cap at 34 they would have only been able to bring in 17 new players instead of 25. 17 players is enough for the core of a team. The only difference with a hard cap would be 8 players who never had a chance wouldn't have derailed their college careers on false hopes.

@auberon  So here is where there is a potential blind spot.

1 - High School players are a holdover from previous coach

2 - JUCO players may or may not be from previous coach

3 - Transfer Portal, depending on timing of hiring, New Coach will need to research, and evaluate players (highlight videos, collegiate summer leagues, showcases) to determine who he wants to bring to campus for additional evaluation.

4 - Holdover players may not fit the coaches needs, some players might decide the environment is not a good fit, thus look for other opportunities or give up baseball.

Providing only 30 and 45 days to fill in the gaps without having them on campus to run through the coaches specific fall workout program is not feasible.

As for the definition of over recruiting, IMHO having 39 and 42 for the fall is not over recruiting.

North of 42, can be considered over recruiting.

@TPM posted:

CBI,

Well you and I understand that and so do many, many legit coaches. This is a business determined by the NCAA and University rules.

The info I received about 2026 roster size was from Rick (after I asked the pcoach at Florida who was with 2025 recruits). He did mention until the House Settlement happens there is no definite decision for 2025- 2026 season.

@tpm  understood. Roster size for 2026 spring season is capped at 34.  Roster size for fall 2025 is tbd.   In order to account for the many events that can happen during the course of the baseball season,  including injuries, academic eligibility, player's decisions, the fall season is boot camp to help the coach determine who he is planning to put on the field in the spring.

@TPM posted:

Sorry folks, not sure if you understand, it's not about batting practice.

I'd argue that when a top school brings in 50 in the Fall, the bottom end pitchers are mostly batting practice. 

@auberon posted:

Financials is no excuse for over recruiting. Coaches just do it because they can and none of the adults in the room have told them they can't.

New coaches get sufficient open spots through graduation and transfers. Using your Campbell example, if there was a hard cap at 34 they would have only been able to bring in 17 new players instead of 25. 17 players is enough for the core of a team. The only difference with a hard cap would be 8 players who never had a chance wouldn't have derailed their college careers on false hopes.

Completely agree with you and everything you have posted in this thread. 

@auberon posted:

Financials is no excuse for over recruiting. Coaches just do it because they can and none of the adults in the room have told them they can't.

This is the golden point in this thread.

I can't speak for other sports like soccer or lacrosse, but I had no idea over recruiting was a standard practice in college baseball until I stumbled across this site.

And I know the vast majority of baseball parents and players my son has grown up with still have no clue.

This lawsuit settlement is making major changes to the way college sports and baseball operate.

One of the potential changes that could be made is holding baseball coaches accountable for the players they recruited.

If hard cap is installed on day 1 of fall then a player can actually be assured they have a roster spot for at least 1 year at the school that offered that roster spot. That doesn't seem like a crazy idea.

The oppositions in this thread so far have been mentions of inconveniences that the head coach might face.

I'm sorry if a new coach can't clean house and do an overnight rebuild because he may have to honor the previous regime's commitments, but dems da breaks.

Now if you want to allow some 5-6 man "practice squad" so a coach can replace injured players or bury the guys he plans on letting go after the year that's fine by me.

But the practice of knowingly bringing in way more players than spots available that has been going on forever is disgraceful and this is a great time to stop it.

@DaddyBaller posted:

One of the potential changes that could be made is holding baseball coaches accountable for the players they recruited.

I'd be so onboard with that.  Say coaches are only allowed to bring in 2-3 players over the total of what they are losing that season.  And those 2-3 are able to practice with the team with the ability to dress if needed. But not on the 34 player roster.

Coaches should be held to their recruiting ability.  If they are a great baseball coach but subpar recruiter, they need to bring in recruiters that can evaluate talent for them vs some alumni getting his grad degree and calling them the RC.

Here's a wrinkle, if they need more, they can source them from the student body only.  A real open tryout.  But none of those kids can be part of the team prior to that, to keep from "recruiting kids" to the school and calling them walk-ons.

@DaddyBaller posted:

This is the golden point in this thread.

I can't speak for other sports like soccer or lacrosse, but I had no idea over recruiting was a standard practice in college baseball until I stumbled across this site.

And I know the vast majority of baseball parents and players my son has grown up with still have no clue.

This lawsuit settlement is making major changes to the way college sports and baseball operate.

One of the potential changes that could be made is holding baseball coaches accountable for the players they recruited.

If hard cap is installed on day 1 of fall then a player can actually be assured they have a roster spot for at least 1 year at the school that offered that roster spot. That doesn't seem like a crazy idea.

The oppositions in this thread so far have been mentions of inconveniences that the head coach might face.

I'm sorry if a new coach can't clean house and do an overnight rebuild because he may have to honor the previous regime's commitments, but dems da breaks.

Now if you want to allow some 5-6 man "practice squad" so a coach can replace injured players or bury the guys he plans on letting go after the year that's fine by me.

But the practice of knowingly bringing in way more players than spots available that has been going on forever is disgraceful and this is a great time to stop it.

@DaddyBaller It's Not disgraceful.

Fall Baseball is a tryout to determine who can play in the spring.

No different than travel baseball

Whereas, in the fall you go to a tryout with 70 or 80 players. The travel org then selects the top 50, does some in-house training and practices ($$$). Then in the spring they create 3 teams (lol). The A team is the showcase team (pitcher heavy and a couple of hitters), B team has the athletes and limited pitching, the C team normally are the sacrificial lambs.

Note, I understand from a student-athlete and parent's perspective the need to predictability and stability, but if I'm a head coach, I have a certain time frame to get my program up.

The cost to the student athlete and family is greater.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

@DaddyBaller It's Not disgraceful.

Fall Baseball is a tryout to determine who can play in the spring.

No different than travel baseball

Whereas, in the fall you go to a tryout with 70 or 80 players. The travel org then selects the top 50, does some in-house training and practices ($$$). Then in the spring they create 3 teams (lol). The A team is the showcase team (pitcher heavy and a couple of hitters), B team has the athletes and limited pitching, the C team normally are the sacrificial lambs.

Note, I understand from a student-athlete and parent's perspective the need to predictability and stability, but if I'm a head coach, I have a certain time frame to get my program up.

The cost to the student athlete and family is greater.

But somehow some schools and coaches still manage to figure this out without cutting 10-20 kids in the fall.

IMO the concept of "well this is how it's always been so it needs to stay that way" has to change along with the new roster sizes, NIL, etc. Adapt or get run over.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

@DaddyBaller It's Not disgraceful.

The cost to the student athlete and family is greater.

Biggest understatement Ive come across in these forums, and Ive combed through A LOT. Theopportunity cost is potentially EVEN greater. The leverage is way too lopsided in favor of programs/ coaches and risk to the players and families. And for the one program that does things the right way, they are effectively punished by hamstringing themselves and limiting access to the talent pool the other TEN programs have no issue with abusing and taking advantage of. There HAS to be a better way. As some have already discovered, even being realistic and trying to preemptively mitigate risk by making what appeared to be good decisions and do all the right things still blew up in their face. That's just so wrong. In a dynamic where demand so vastly outstrips supply, the little guy gets steamrolled.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

@DaddyBaller It's Not disgraceful.

Fall Baseball is a tryout to determine who can play in the spring.

No different than travel baseball

Whereas, in the fall you go to a tryout with 70 or 80 players. The travel org then selects the top 50, does some in-house training and practices ($$$). Then in the spring they create 3 teams (lol). The A team is the showcase team (pitcher heavy and a couple of hitters), B team has the athletes and limited pitching, the C team normally are the sacrificial lambs.

This is not at all like travel baseball.  There the player is a customer.  It's not chaos if you get put on the C team, even if you don't like it much.

If you go to college expecting to stay there, get an education, and be on a team, and you discover that's not what you were offered, that is far more disruptive to your life and your education.

If you want to run your team by bringing in 50, then tell players that's how it will be.  I wonder how many players you would get to come to your school, if that's what you told them?

@DaddyBaller posted:

I had no idea over recruiting was a standard practice in college baseball until I stumbled across this site.

And I know the vast majority of baseball parents and players my son has grown up with still have no clue.

This.  And you can't just say "do your homework," because as we see over and over on this site, people DO do their homework, they check previous rosters and recruitment patterns, they assume that an athletic scholarship is a guarantee, all of that . . . and they STILL get mistreated.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

@DaddyBaller It's Not disgraceful.

Fall Baseball is a tryout to determine who can play in the spring.

No different than travel baseball

The cost to the student athlete and family is greater.

I am telling you the way college baseball has operated is disgraceful. And I don't seem to be alone.

@CollegebaseballInsights , you keep explaining the system that I fully understand. And I fully understand why a college baseball coach would prefer the current system not to change.

Why catch 34 fish by hand if I can throw out a net , bring in 50, and pick the best 34?

So let me ask you this @CollegebaseballInsights. Do D-1 basketball coaches operate this way? If the answer is no, why not?

Recruits and their parents have to understand when a D1 college coach talks about education all most coaches care about is the player remaining eligible.

A friend of mine entered college thinking he was a legitimate pro prospect and engineering was his fallback position. He graduated a Phys Ed major and undrafted. But the coach got four years of quality pitching out of him.

Good luck with your life kid. Next!

The thing that always floors me is that the schools allow their students to be treated this way...these kids were admitted into the school and most are paying customers.  Imagine the academic equivalent....UVA changes the head of their Chemistry department after the academic year...in August he has a Zoom call with a half dozen Chemistry majors and tells them that he is bringing in some students from his last school.  These kids can stay at UVA and major in Health, or they are free to pursue Chemistry at some other school.

I stated this in another topic. Due to the House Settlement things are not where they should be.

@DaddyBaller

How many programs did you visit this fall to determine who over recruited?  Do your homework.

Or blame the NCAA not the coaches. Did you know that there are rules that have to be followed regarding practice, instruction, GPA to play?

Did you know that there are only a certain # that are on scholarship in that group. Did you know that if a player signs a NLI and dropped, he gets to keep it?

Just a few things you may not be aware of.

So what we are saying is

Winning really isn't about coaches, it's about the players.

A coach can't win unless he brings in the best players, and he can't identify who the best players are

so he brings in as many as he can.

So, why are D1 coaches paid as well as they are?

I guess in a way it is kind of like Travel ball.

@HSDad22 posted:

So what we are saying is

Winning really isn't about coaches, it's about the players.

A coach can't win unless he brings in the best players, and he can't identify who the best players are

so he brings in as many as he can.

So, why are D1 coaches paid as well as they are?

Don't understand your question. What do you assume is "well"? Did you know that until recently assistant a 4th assistant coach may have gotten some camp money but no benefits?

There is only a small % of coaches who really make the big bucks, mainly because they bring home the hardware and years of service. If you don't win, you go home and don't come back.

Yes, coaches bring in players and let them keep their uni as a thank you. If you understood how fall practice works, you may understand. That is why coaches don't want 34 max. That's why coaches have gone wild this fall.

It comes down to this for the recruit...DO YOUR HOMEWORK and don't be afraid to ask questions!

  I’m going to repeat some things I have often said over the years, so bear with me if some of this is familiar.
  I joined this site close to 10 years ago and one of the first subjects that I brought up was widespread blatant over-recruiting. And I got a lot of push back from people that had been on this board for a while. But what I said was true 8 years ago, and it was true 40 years ago. Schools have always over-recruited. I do believe that it’s a trend that has gotten worse over time. I’m not against the reducing of rosters. Only 25 travel and 34 is plenty. But let’s not let greedy University hierarchy off easy. They figured out that they could increase tuition revenue thru offering more athletes the “possibility” of playing sports. So administrators have fueled the over-recruiting as much as (or more than) coaches.
  I was also one of the first to be critical of PG - who at the time I joined was using HSBBW as a focus group and as a platform to push their business model. I got a lot of pushback on that too, but my criticism of PG was accurate. I saw what they were all about as a result of paying for, and attending, some of their events. Over time the new members seemed to share my pov about PG. It’s a money grab for all but a small fraction of participants.
  So now I’m gonna offer another opinion that may not be popular - but it is accurate. The travel ball model isn’t a good system to prepare players for college baseball. Most orgs don’t teach the game and are in it for the wrong reasons. Parents pay a fee for their kid to be on a travel team - and with that payment comes the expectation of playing time - by both parents and players. HS baseball isn’t much better in that respect with parents having a large amount of influence and favoring seniority over meritocracy. So up until the time a kid graduates from HS, the expectation of kids and parents, every season, is that playing time is a given. It is expected. When a player goes off to college that expectation should evaporate - but it doesn’t. In today’s world freshmen think they should play and so do their parents. Which is totally unrealistic in most cases. And unrealistic expectations are a recipe for disaster and disappointment.
  One thing that CBI mentioned in this thread was the massive gap between supply and demand. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the fundamental economic problem that we are all dealing with one way or another. There are way too many good players compared to the number of roster spots available. And as many as 1800 D1 roster spots are about to be eliminated. So if you think it’s bad now, just wait until all those players are looking for new homes. I spoke to a RC at a very competitive D2 program today. I asked him why he wasn’t recruiting any of our players this year. And he said (which I suspected) that they are waiting for the flood of D1 cut players to hit the market. And they aren’t alone. I think it will be brutal.

@adbono

I am not disputing what you say. But in my experience I have not seen the abuse of over recruiting.

I have heard that there are a lot of promises being made that can't be kept. I have no issue with PG.  They are everywhere and provide a service. Scouts and coaches follow.  If a scout has a relationship with a coach in his region, coach can count on info coming back to him about that player, "hey I saw someone that may be a good fit for your program".

Last year I had that exact conversation with the Rangers scout while in Miami. One of our coaches was a cross checker for a ML team. It's worked out well.

I know that this has nothing to do with over recruiting. But if a family begins their journey, plays travel ball, receives good training, playing top programs, it's hard to miss an opportunity. You have to travel, do your homework and start research to be ready. Don't rely on your HS coach unless he is well connected with scouts or travel ball coaches.

Ok I am done. I am sorry if kids get burned, pisses me off, also pisses off the coaches who work their tails off to turn out a winning program.

@adbono posted:

  I’m going to repeat some things I have often said over the years, so bear with me if some of this is familiar.
  I joined this site close to 10 years ago and one of the first subjects that I brought up was widespread blatant over-recruiting. And I got a lot of push back from people that had been on this board for a while. But what I said was true 8 years ago, and it was true 40 years ago. Schools have always over-recruited. I do believe that it’s a trend that has gotten worse over time. I’m not against the reducing of rosters. Only 25 travel and 34 is plenty. But let’s not let greedy University hierarchy off easy. They figured out that they could increase tuition revenue thru offering more athletes the “possibility” of playing sports. So administrators have fueled the over-recruiting as much as (or more than) coaches.
  I was also one of the first to be critical of PG - who at the time I joined was using HSBBW as a focus group and as a platform to push their business model. I got a lot of pushback on that too, but my criticism of PG was accurate. I saw what they were all about as a result of paying for, and attending, some of their events. Over time the new members seemed to share my pov about PG. It’s a money grab for all but a small fraction of participants.
  So now I’m gonna offer another opinion that may not be popular - but it is accurate. The travel ball model isn’t a good system to prepare players for college baseball. Most orgs don’t teach the game and are in it for the wrong reasons. Parents pay a fee for their kid to be on a travel team - and with that payment comes the expectation of playing time - by both parents and players. HS baseball isn’t much better in that respect with parents having a large amount of influence and favoring seniority over meritocracy. So up until the time a kid graduates from HS, the expectation of kids and parents, every season, is that playing time is a given. It is expected. When a player goes off to college that expectation should evaporate - but it doesn’t. In today’s world freshmen think they should play and so do their parents. Which is totally unrealistic in most cases. And unrealistic expectations are a recipe for disaster and disappointment.
  One thing that CBI mentioned in this thread was the massive gap between supply and demand. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the fundamental economic problem that we are all dealing with one way or another. There are way too many good players compared to the number of roster spots available. And as many as 1800 D1 roster spots are about to be eliminated. So if you think it’s bad now, just wait until all those players are looking for new homes. I spoke to a RC at a very competitive D2 program today. I asked him why he wasn’t recruiting any of our players this year. And he said (which I suspected) that they are waiting for the flood of D1 cut players to hit the market. And they aren’t alone. I think it will be brutal.

@adbono I spoke to a subscriber last week. His son is in his 2nd yr at a JUCO in CCCAA.

He is recommending to parents in his organization to create relationships with the JUCO and safefy schools vs a top down dream school and then scramble to find a spot

Adbono

do watch Ken Burns PBS? His creativity inspired the creativity for the Area Code games 1987 to 2024, many years before the “copy cats !

Bill Veeck was also an inspiration.
Parents and players please study the history of the Coach, school, team

and The AD. “It will not change” History repeats itself.

Bob

@TPM posted:

@DaddyBaller

How many programs did you visit this fall to determine who over recruited?  Do your homework.

Or blame the NCAA not the coaches. Did you know that there are rules that have to be followed regarding practice, instruction, GPA to play?

Did you know that there are only a certain # that are on scholarship in that group. Did you know that if a player signs a NLI and dropped, he gets to keep it?

Just a few things you may not be aware of.

I have never once blamed a baseball coach for over recruiting. I went out of my way to say the most salient post I have seen on the subject was from @auberon  who said:

"Financials is no excuse for over recruiting. Coaches just do it because they can and none of the adults in the room have told them they can't. "

The "adults" are the NCAA and the college presidents and AD's that run it.  These adults are in the process of restructuring baseballroster and scholarship limits. This is an opportune time to do something about college baseball's dirty little secret.

Why would anyone who advocates for players be against that?

Instead of repeating "do your research" , how about we try to eliminate an avoidable problem?

What is the dirty little secret?

I will ask again, how many programs are you familiar with, using the state you live, where coaches over recruit? You made a comment about UM signing too many, do you really think that Miami HC doesn't know how to manage a roster year to year.  Remember, that there is a suggested roster amount but not enforceable, at this time.

This practice is not new.  Coaches would bring in extra guys to try out,  give them uniforms and send them on their way at end of semester.  FWIW, many  programs were recruiting more than necessary in fall and that was as far back as 2004. We had  well known travel coaches as well as an advisor to help in the process.

Again, here is my suggestion, do your homework.

Also, there was, until recently, no such thing as being able to transfer without sitting out a year. Tell me how fair that was.

Your turn.

I think going to the 34 man roster will help reduce some of the over recruiting.  I can kind of understand the over recruiting.  If you’re a coach, why not?  It can only help you.  There was/is no penalty (sitting out a year like a transfer had to do).  If they are limited to 34, then maybe they will take recruiting more seriously (not that they don’t now) but maybe they will work more on developing their players.  

I just hope this all clears up for my 2027

@TPM posted:

What is the dirty little secret?

I will ask again, how many programs are you familiar with, using the state you live, where coaches over recruit? You made a comment about UM signing too many, do you really think that Miami HC doesn't know how to manage a roster year to year.  Remember, that there is a suggested roster amount but not enforceable, at this time.

This practice is not new.  Coaches would bring in extra guys to try out,  give them uniforms and send them on their way at end of semester.  FWIW, many  programs were recruiting more than necessary in fall and that was as far back as 2004. We had  well known travel coaches as well as an advisor to help in the process.

Again, here is my suggestion, do your homework.

Also, there was, until recently, no such thing as being able to transfer without sitting out a year. Tell me how fair that was.

Your turn.

@TPM  You are making some excellent points.

Researching any collegiate baseball program is about getting into the same head space as the coach, understanding how he manages his roster and then determine if it worth the effort to pursue that path.

I don't understand why many complain about how rosters are constructed, could it be because many want to belief what is stated initially in order to get the player to sign?

If they are honest, a similar process happens with travel baseball, whereas the biggest difference is that you can create your own team.

Note, depending on how a student athlete and family handle research their target schools they can quickly understand how the coaching staff goes about building a roster annually.

There is free and there is paid.

@Dadof3 posted:

I think going to the 34 man roster will help reduce some of the over recruiting.  I can kind of understand the over recruiting.  If you’re a coach, why not?  It can only help you.  There was/is no penalty (sitting out a year like a transfer had to do).  If they are limited to 34, then maybe they will take recruiting more seriously (not that they don’t now) but maybe they will work more on developing their players.  

I just hope this all clears up for my 2027

@Dadof3 what is your definition of over recruiting? Is there a threshold?

CBI good points and it's nice to agree with you. FWIW Dadof3 is starting the journey and asks a lot of good questions.

What bothers me is how someone can just call out a coach or coaches without knowing what's going on. That person should be thrilled that he lives in a state where part of ones tuition comes from a lottery program that supports its educational system. So I WANT to know the dirty little secret!  Another thing..... you can't compare what happens in different parts of the country. For instance recruiting in Texas is a lot different than in other parts of the country.

So here is my understanding. The roster max for this fall and spring is supposed to be 40 max. I explained in an earlier post why it wasn't 34 and may not end up 34 at all. I did receive my info from a few good sources. One thing that I have learned. It's a grueling season for everyone.

FWIW fall rosters are meaningless at this point because the semester hasn't ended and grades not in. So the only roster that means anything at this point is the 2025 championship roster. Bringing in huge numbers of walk ons isn't new.

Also, to get where you want to go, it's a numbers game. It's also playing your conference and non conference games. Anyone can go to D1 Baseball  (see teams) and see how many games each team played without a subscription. It takes a LOT of arms to get to play 65-70 games. So I would get why the concern for coaches trying to make post season makes them greedy.

I have been here longer than some of your players ages. I have seen it all. Most of it has been good.

Is there a firm date that this is supposed to be finalized by? Not number of scholarships (I realize that's likely going to be a conference by conference basis), but fall and final spring roster sizes.

@nycdad posted:

Is there a firm date that this is supposed to be finalized by? Not number of scholarships (I realize that's likely going to be a conference by conference basis), but fall and final spring roster sizes.

34 Scholarships  should be standard but up to the program to make a commitment. I am not sure when that is supposed to be compliant but many programs went along with the 40/40 for now.

I understand that a lot is being held up due to the  House Settlement. I guess coaches have concerns. In the meantime, there is no fall roster limit.

Here is an idea, even though it will never happen. D1 level 45 players in the fall. Spring V roster 25 (travel) JV roster 20. All player practice together. Players can switch between the teams if needed. JV will play at least 1 game a week, so they see game time. Can only redshirt 1 year if only games played where at the JV level. I'm sure there are some other good rules that can be put in place. When it gets to tournament time, everyone goes.

@TPM I will try to make this simple for you.

The secret is the lack of transparency in college baseball recruiting.

Your ally in this  discussion said this:

"Fall Baseball is a tryout to determine who can play in the spring.

No different than travel baseball"

And he is absolutely correct.  That's it. That's the secret. That every freshman that steps foot on a fall campus is essentially trying out to make the team.

Now I fully understand there are levels to this game. That the stud that turned down draft money has 99.9% chance of being on the roster vs. the kid getting academic money who "committed" in May.

But with that being said I can tell you not one coach who has recruited my son or any of his friends has ever said " We are offering you a chance to try out for our team. We are bringing in X number of guys and keeping Y. We would love to have you try out."

The sales pitch is they are offering you a "spot" in their program. And in reality they are. But the secret is if you don't impress out the box, or the junior that they thought was getting drafted returns, or the hometown hero that went to LSU decides he's homesick, the "spot" the freshman thought they had is gone by Thanksgiving.

I fully understand the nature of sports and that it's survival of the fittest. I also understand getting on a college team should not guarantee you 4 years.

I  believe there is a better way to handle first year college baseball players.

Just make the rules black and white so athletes and parents know what they are signing up for.

Just put hard caps on the number of players a coach can roster in the fall and a hard cap on the number they can keep and a hard date on when the spring roster is set.

That way no one will be shocked at the amount of players in fall camp or the number of cuts made. Right now it's the Wild West. Why not make it slightly easier for families to navigate?

You still would need to "do your research" , but there would be some basic guardrails to protect players from a bait and switch.

What would be the downside to that @TPM ?

Thanks, DaddyBaller, I was going to say exactly that, but you said it better.  Most people don't know all this.  At least one person posts about this on HSBBW every year.  I sure didn't understand, until I started watching all the players my son knew, many of whom didn't ever play at the D1 schools they committed to.

Sure, do your homework, but how can you for teams that don't post fall rosters?  And things are changing really fast, so that even if a coach didn't take a lot of transfers in the past, they may now.  I noticed a few teams that had something like 10 transfers in 2022, 15 in 2023, 24 in 2024.

I've done tons of roster research.  I did it for all the D3 schools that were interested in my son, with his school we got exactly what I expected, based on what the coach said.  Were we lucky, or did my research pay off?  I don't know.

@adbono posted:

  I’m going to repeat some things I have often said over the years, so bear with me if some of this is familiar.
  I joined this site close to 10 years ago and one of the first subjects that I brought up was widespread blatant over-recruiting. And I got a lot of push back from people that had been on this board for a while. But what I said was true 8 years ago, and it was true 40 years ago. Schools have always over-recruited. I do believe that it’s a trend that has gotten worse over time. I’m not against the reducing of rosters. Only 25 travel and 34 is plenty. But let’s not let greedy University hierarchy off easy. They figured out that they could increase tuition revenue thru offering more athletes the “possibility” of playing sports. So administrators have fueled the over-recruiting as much as (or more than) coaches.
  I was also one of the first to be critical of PG - who at the time I joined was using HSBBW as a focus group and as a platform to push their business model. I got a lot of pushback on that too, but my criticism of PG was accurate. I saw what they were all about as a result of paying for, and attending, some of their events. Over time the new members seemed to share my pov about PG. It’s a money grab for all but a small fraction of participants.
  So now I’m gonna offer another opinion that may not be popular - but it is accurate. The travel ball model isn’t a good system to prepare players for college baseball. Most orgs don’t teach the game and are in it for the wrong reasons. Parents pay a fee for their kid to be on a travel team - and with that payment comes the expectation of playing time - by both parents and players. HS baseball isn’t much better in that respect with parents having a large amount of influence and favoring seniority over meritocracy. So up until the time a kid graduates from HS, the expectation of kids and parents, every season, is that playing time is a given. It is expected. When a player goes off to college that expectation should evaporate - but it doesn’t. In today’s world freshmen think they should play and so do their parents. Which is totally unrealistic in most cases. And unrealistic expectations are a recipe for disaster and disappointment.
  One thing that CBI mentioned in this thread was the massive gap between supply and demand. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the fundamental economic problem that we are all dealing with one way or another. There are way too many good players compared to the number of roster spots available. And as many as 1800 D1 roster spots are about to be eliminated. So if you think it’s bad now, just wait until all those players are looking for new homes. I spoke to a RC at a very competitive D2 program today. I asked him why he wasn’t recruiting any of our players this year. And he said (which I suspected) that they are waiting for the flood of D1 cut players to hit the market. And they aren’t alone. I think it will be brutal.

Re: Perfect Game

My son played in PG tournaments in East Cobb, Fort Myers and Cape Cod at sixteen and seventeen. He’s thirty-one now. He was presold/discovered at SelectFest in NJ and Atlantic 100 in PA before attending PG events. These two Mid Atlantic events required MLB scout recommendations.

Back then I had a couple of conversations with the (then) head if PG Jerry Ford. One was online. One was in person when I introduced myself.

Ford was very open the 17u events were designed for D1 and pro prospects. But they weren’t going to tell players/parents not to come and pay. I told him if I had one complaint there were too many teams in the East Cobb tournament. Due to the numbers fields were too spread out. My son’s team always faced one team that was a waste of time to play. They had no business attempting to compete in this level of a tournament.

I believe my son’s journey would have worked out the same without PG events. But for six weeks/weekends his team competed in high level tournaments. Two more weekends he competed in high level showcases. It told him while he may have been a #500 something recruit he belonged on the field with anyone.

While Ford is still involved with PG he has sold a majority share. The new people have changed the model. What was once for D1 and pro prospects has turned into one huge money grab for any sucker parent willing to put his money on the table. Besides, How can your kid ever become a successful baseball player unless he’s ranked nationally as a twelve year old (heavy sarcasm)?!

My complaint aside from PG: Is baseball still a sport for kids anymore? Or has youth baseball become a con for baseball people to fleece uninformed parents? I’ve tried to convince parents preteen baseball is about developing a love for the game no matter how long a player plays. A youth player can become a lifelong fan of the game. Preteen baseball is for learning basic skills so the player has an opportunity to develop as a player when they hit the 60/90 field. A preteen player is learning how to compete. But how does pitching preteen baseball as fun stack up against PG ranking preteen players on a national level.

Are parents aware there are a lot of baseball people sucking the fun out of the game for kids?

Maybe a 34 fall roster will finally put an end to the god awful Omaha Challenge week.

@DaddyBaller posted:

@TPM I will try to make this simple for you.

The secret is the lack of transparency in college baseball recruiting.

Your ally in this  discussion said this:

"Fall Baseball is a tryout to determine who can play in the spring.

No different than travel baseball"

And he is absolutely correct.  That's it. That's the secret. That every freshman that steps foot on a fall campus is essentially trying out to make the team.

Now I fully understand there are levels to this game. That the stud that turned down draft money has 99.9% chance of being on the roster vs. the kid getting academic money who "committed" in May.

But with that being said I can tell you not one coach who has recruited my son or any of his friends has ever said " We are offering you a chance to try out for our team. We are bringing in X number of guys and keeping Y. We would love to have you try out."

The sales pitch is they are offering you a "spot" in their program. And in reality they are. But the secret is if you don't impress out the box, or the junior that they thought was getting drafted returns, or the hometown hero that went to LSU decides he's homesick, the "spot" the freshman thought they had is gone by Thanksgiving.

I fully understand the nature of sports and that it's survival of the fittest. I also understand getting on a college team should not guarantee you 4 years.

I  believe there is a better way to handle first year college baseball players.

Just make the rules black and white so athletes and parents know what they are signing up for.

Just put hard caps on the number of players a coach can roster in the fall and a hard cap on the number they can keep and a hard date on when the spring roster is set.

That way no one will be shocked at the amount of players in fall camp or the number of cuts made. Right now it's the Wild West. Why not make it slightly easier for families to navigate?

You still would need to "do your research" , but there would be some basic guardrails to protect players from a bait and switch.

What would be the downside to that @TPM ?

@DaddyBaller Nothing is ever black and white, thus a hard cap is unrealistic based on something as simple as a head coaching change.

Here is the problem in a nutshell.

Student-athletes and families believe the transition from high school to college baseball is similar to mid-school to high school.

In High school, they will normally have Freshman, JV and Varsity teams.  And depending on how big the school is there may be a limited talent pool.  Thus if your student athlete has played travel ball since 13u, they will most likely be ahead of the average HS players regardless of level.

So it is not uncommon to have HS freshman on a varsity team getting time or hoping between teams.

Whereas college is a larger pool

• Transfer Portal
• JUCO
• Post Grad
• High School
• International

evaluating a player requires a lot more time, as for the body of work over a period of time is limited.

Note, everything is about a video clip and said video clip also shows you at your best.

How many players show a video when they've struck out, made a error, or had a home run hit off them?

Or gave up a 5 spot in a inning.

As a coach, I want to put them thru my basic training bootcamp before I give them a hall pass.

Note, because my job might be on the line, here is a perspective many don't understand

Here is a full list of all coaching changes by division

https://collegebaseballinsight...l-coaching-carousel/

@anotherparent posted:

Thanks, DaddyBaller, I was going to say exactly that, but you said it better.  Most people don't know all this.  At least one person posts about this on HSBBW every year.  I sure didn't understand, until I started watching all the players my son knew, many of whom didn't ever play at the D1 schools they committed to.

Sure, do your homework, but how can you for teams that don't post fall rosters?  And things are changing really fast, so that even if a coach didn't take a lot of transfers in the past, they may now.  I noticed a few teams that had something like 10 transfers in 2022, 15 in 2023, 24 in 2024.

I've done tons of roster research.  I did it for all the D3 schools that were interested in my son, with his school we got exactly what I expected, based on what the coach said.  Were we lucky, or did my research pay off?  I don't know.

@anotherparent  with respect to fall rosters the formula that I recommend is

1 - HC Tenure - most coaches in 1st or 2nd year will flood the zone  previous year's spring roster times 125% to 140%.

2 - look at a teams annual attrition rate for x number of years

Note, I would recommend not the overthink to try to get to a specific count because that might be elusive.

But if you are able to review a school's historical roster management patterns, then you will have  pretty good idea what is really going on

https://collegebaseballinsight...nover-insights-free/

@CollegebaseballInsights are you advocating for nothing to change with fall rosters and leave them as they are now? What number in the fall do you think is reasonable?

I get that coaches want as much time as they can to evaluate, but I think with advances in technology coaches should be able to be better evaluators than they were years ago. When my son was going through this, the good recruiters wanted to see full inning videos of my son pitching, not just the strike outs, etc. They could also go to GC or the equivalent and see scores.

I think there's a difference between incorrectly evaluating a player, cutting him in the fall and stock piling players knowing you can just work out in the fall (And yes I get that the later can sometimes be part of "doing your homework"...sometimes)

@anotherparent posted:

Thanks, DaddyBaller, I was going to say exactly that, but you said it better.  Most people don't know all this.  At least one person posts about this on HSBBW every year.  I sure didn't understand, until I started watching all the players my son knew, many of whom didn't ever play at the D1 schools they committed to.

Sure, do your homework, but how can you for teams that don't post fall rosters?  And things are changing really fast, so that even if a coach didn't take a lot of transfers in the past, they may now.  I noticed a few teams that had something like 10 transfers in 2022, 15 in 2023, 24 in 2024.

I've done tons of roster research.  I did it for all the D3 schools that were interested in my son, with his school we got exactly what I expected, based on what the coach said.  Were we lucky, or did my research pay off?  I don't know.

@anotherparent as for the research paying off, one might state the research clarified what you might expect for a baseball program.

"Trust but Verify"