35 man college roster info

thanks,
so if I read ya right you are confriming what I was told that the fall practice roster can not exceed 35 players

I have also been told that a 30 man scholarship number is being discussed now that the 25% can include non scholarship monies

If I am understanding, yes, cannot exceed the 35 man.

The 35 fall was designed to cut down on fall overstocking and cuts due to new sit out one year rule.

Essentially, coaches have to go out and do their job recruiting, not recruit from their desks. This was a big complaint.

Oops, forgot to ask about open tryouts in fall.

It is my understanding that there is a one year transition period for the 27 max athletic schollys. I was under the impression that in the 2008-2009 AY, teams are allowed 30 counters (NCAA-ese) and years following that number drops to 27. Can anyone confirm?

Many variables in the entire equation.

Counters
Non-counters
25% minimum
25% mixed minimum

25% mixed that includes academic that doesn't count toward team 11.7

what about need-based grants ?

what about State dollars like HOPE, TAPS, FLA ?

Say a kid qualifies for a University non-athletic Grant that has criteria such as a 3.0 GPA, well below the NCAA excludable ...............

"15.5.3.2.1.1 Academic Honor Awards. Academic honor awards that are part of an institution’s
normal arrangements for academic scholarships, based solely on the recipient’s high school record and awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, are exempt from an institution’s equivalency computation, provided the recipient was ranked in the upper 10 percent of the high school graduating class or achieved a corecourse grade-point average of at least 3.500 (based on a maximum of 4.000) or a minimum ACT sum score of 105 or a minimum SAT score of 1200."

********* If the player gets one of these academic grants but doesn't meet the above criteria, sure the coach can use it toward the individual 25% minimum, but will it also count against the team 11.7 ? Appears YES

If it would, that leaves less "baseball monies" to attract more talent.

I would think a coach will try as hard as possible to maximize his spending dollars to compete, and the roster mix will be directly influenced by all these variables as far as the 27 counters.

Assuming a fully-funded program, it may end up where a 27 counter roster will include 10-15 players who normally received about 20-30%, but it will now be in the form of academic monies not counted against the team leaving nearly 10-12 high percentage baseball only grants to award/induce the blue-chippers.

Also, where do the FLA/LA/GA monies fit in the equation? Imagine 18 in-state kids where those monies satisfy the individual 25% rule, do not count against team monies ?? Do they have an unfair advantage by potentially offering 10-11 out-of-state blue-chip kids complete full rides?? These monies have a lesser qualifying criteria than the NCAA team count rule.

How about a player who goes to a $20,000 COA program with $10,000 of academic money. Does the coach add a little baseball money? Does he need to? Does the player expect it?

Just some thoughts for discussion.

Yes, my understanding also, 30 counters than 27, but the roster in compliance, I think by next year.

When does the 25% go into effect? And, is this when those receiving less than 25% must be increased to be compliant? Or if NLI signed for less than 25%, will it be increased? And ... since NLI signed for 1 year, so can we assume the increase amount should occur in the subsequent years (if the "school" honors the original NLI)? Will assume some programs will not offer $$ to current players receiving some assistance depending on their review of team needs and possible recruits. Does this belong under the 35 roster thread? STILL am confused about dates these new rules go into effect!

Folks

Relax until we see what is voted on and approved in January--right now nobody has an idea as to what is going to be the final decision

But TR, these new rules are discussed as absolutes, not as still to be voted upon & approved. It is interesting that programs and players are already impacted by new rules that aren't yet approved formally. Folks are making decisions based on these yet to be approved rules.

TR,
My understanding these rules are the rules, with ammended legislation for the new scholley amount.
The only thing to vote on in January is text messaging ban, which was put off from the auigust meeting.

If you have information otherwise, please give source for your information.

I just feel these "probable" changes make for good discussion about the recruiting landscape.

The one question bleacherfan posed was a good one. It appears that a kid who may have gotten books for the 2008 season will be bumped up to 25% mixed monies. With all the recent transfers, some so-called recent "cut players" being told they won't play much in the program to give them decent time to transfer, coaches are behaving as if the new rules are SOLIDIFIED, at least in their eyes.

.

To clarify:

Is fall 35 DI roster a PROBABLE with rules passage OR a current (fall 2007)...

44
.

Here is the latest info I could find on the rules changes:

Latest News on Baseball Changes

My take:
Right now we are in a 60 day override period. If enough institutions submit a protest of the changes, there would be another vote on this in January, 2008 (the date TRhit is referring to).

ALSO, in reading all of the legislation, it appears the effective date for all of these changes is
August 1, 2008.

quote:

ALSO, in reading all of the legislation, it appears the effective date for all of these changes is
August 1, 2008.

Thanks, jb - I have some reading to do! This is a good reference. I have heard the Aug. 1st, '08 date from others. But, also ... that if a player needs/wants to avoid sitting out a year, they must transfer prior to the end of 2007 (Dec. 31, 2007). This is where I get confused about the dates these new rules should go into effect. Does anyone know for sure when a player needs transfer and not have to sit out a year? Seems related to the "35 man college roster" thread!

Someone posted the student must be enrolled and accepted prior to the start of the Spring semester, which is before 2008 starts.

In other words, those that haven't transferred by now, or are in the process of doing so will miss the due date.

Do you think there are several college baseball kids making calls to coaches seeing if they would fit into their program?

Are these coaches overwhelmed right now with their own roster concerns, Fall workouts, Fall recruiting ?

Pretty crazy stuff.

Ok, my misunderstanding.
Schools have 90 days from a meeting to submit protests for the recommended LEGISTRATION which is what TR is talking about.

The meeting in early august was to ammend the legislation they originally drew up, in this case the largest protest was the 33%. Seems that most coaches are in agreement that reforms do have to be made and most not objecting to most proposals.

It goes into effect next august with a rollback on counters for a year to adjust for those that were in school before the legislation existed. Coaches need to cut back rosters now to be in compliance for when the time comes. You can still transfer this fall without penalty. You cannot next year because of the August 1 date.

Recruitied walk ons will most likely be those who receive academic assistance only or state earned assistance, so yes, very important to do well in school. Very few coaches expect you to come for nothing. Books can be paid for and supplied with athletic donations, so can room and board. Coaches finding new ways to be creative with awarding money. They will be part of the 35 man roster and will be treated as everyone else, they have an opportunity to work hard and be a starter, they will not be recruited as "extras". Even more difficult because they will have to make certain GPA to keep their school money.
Schools most likely will be a bit more lenient in giving academic money.

Again the whole idea is to increase graduation rates in baseball, which many coaches have been trying to do for years.

Can't get an answer on fall try outs.

Would like to correct the missinformation being put forward. After talking with the NCAA sevices advisor I was told repeatedly that BB rosters are after the fall semester. No roster exists before the spring roster except the scholarship guys who are deemed on the roster in the spring when the official roster is posted. As mentioned the guys who show up including non scholarship guys are trying to make the team.
I asked if 50 guys show up for one reason or anothjer the advisor said 15 had to be cut before the official roster is posted. Anyone who is registered in a partcular school can tryout for the team, invited or not. The rules due take effect 1st of August 08.
No roster exists in BB prior to the spring semester.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Would like to correct the missinformation being put forward. After talking with the NCAA sevices advisor I was told repeatedly that BB rosters are after the fall semester.
I asked if 50 guys show up for one reason or anothjer the advisor said 15 had to be cut before the official roster is posted.
No roster exists in BB prior to the spring semester.

And not until 2/09?

Can you kindly point out the misinformation posted.

That may be true as that is why I always thought and that is why I asked a HC. But this HC doesn't beleive in over recruiting and roster has never been over 35ish, as with most of the schools I am very familiar with. You are right there has never been a roster limit for baseball. An compliance had to be in spring. Most good schools, those i know of and follow, keep their roster limits close to 35. I see the confusion.

So the coach only has to be compliant in fall with the 27 on scholarship? With GPA too right and at 25% minimum. That means he needs 8 more.

What coach depends on 8 walk ons showing up and him deciding they are good for the program in two days?


Also, have found that the people that answer the phone at NCAA give different answers.

It appears that the designation of counters and non-counters will be made on the date of the NLI, in November 2007, and these kids will effectively be an official counter on the day he attends his first class.(see sidenote)

15.5 MAXIMUM INSTITUTIONAL GRAN T-IN-AID LIMITATIONS BY SPORT
15.5.1 Counters. A student-athlete shall be a counter and included in the maximum awards limitations set forth in this bylaw under the following conditions: (Revised: 6/10/04)
(a) Athletics Aid. A student-athlete who receives financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability shall become a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the financial aid.

Therefore, you have a tentative Fall(2008) roster of 30 counters, and the coach can add 31-35 as needed before the first game in 2009, as non-counters. Once deemed a counter, you are a counter(one of 30/27) the entire year.



sidenote: I would guess the designation of counter will apply the day the student goes to class. You wouldn't want a new freshman counter to sign a pro deal with that designation.

OS there has been a common belief in this thread and others that the tryout fall semester had a limit of 35 max under the new rules. They can have as many as they want and happen to show up. Max 27 scholarship guys who as it was put to me were deemed to be part of thye official spring roster in spring 09.
It was asked if over recruiting would occure and it appears it could. When my son showed up at freshman year there were 43+ at sign in. They cut it back to 37. In spring 09 it would have to be 35 as everyone knows. They could have all 35 withy no scholarships if they wanted to. The important thing is the official roster is posted in the spring
after fall tryouts.

One other thing I was told is that existing academic money was exempt from the calculations because it was grandfathered sine it existed prior to the rule changes.

But the official roster will already include the 30/27 counters due to the bylaws that define what a counter is, and when they become one, which is the Fall of the year when their athletic monies get credited to their account.

OS,
Since you gave the article number does that mean those are now official rules? What section was that?

I am so confused. I know that non baseball scholarship players are not counters.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
OS,
Since you gave the article number does that mean those are now official rules? What section was that?

I am so confused. I know that non baseball scholarship players are not counters.

I suppose they will be voted on as was mentioned, so I am assuming they will go into effect, just as many posters are doing.

Anyway, it is fun to discuss this landscape.

It just seems like the "behavior" this recruiting period has been influenced directly by the proposed changes.

The most important thing to note, is that the decision made by a recruit will be one that he will have to be happy with and well thought out, due to transfer rule as well.

Does that have an article number too?

Consider this:

The Fall 2007 NLI starts the clock according to the new proposed rules with 2008 grads, who will be the first class affected by these changes.

They will be made offers, of at least 25% minimums. Throw in the mixed monies exception and you can see a coach and his compliance officer going crazy just right now with this class. The GPA, possible academic monies that are now part of the equation, maybe to satisfy the individual 25%, but do they count against the team, etc.etc. Every transition period in most things can be chaotic!

Anyways, these 11/07 NLI's are effectively future counters the day they go to class in the Fall, 2008.

Don't you think a coach currently needs to project his current counters that are rostered right now? How can he offer/add a new counter and be sure he doesn't exceed the 30/27?

I have read most of the articles on the proposal, as well as section 15 of the bylaws in the NCAA, which is my basis. Obviously, I am subject to misinterpretation

quote:

What coach depends on 8 walk ons showing up and him deciding they are good for the program in two days?


Also, have found that the people that answer the phone at NCAA give different answers.

You can have 100 invited or uninvited walk ons as you call it. There are alway guys who are at weigh in that have been recruited by the coach and sign up with the school who tryout and believe they are on the team. No money no promises and end up being cut RS or just leave. This is why I have always not understood why people talk about walk ons when they have only been invited to tryout and many not even that.
Thye advisor I talked to was well versed in the new rules and I asked her repeatedly from different angles and her answers were clear and precise. The fact is thyere is no roster until spring. A fact I have been told and to do otherwise would be a disaster for a coach at D1. Many guys who are good but do not do well in fall are cut. The problem I have is the transfer rules. That unscholarshipper player should be allowed to transfer without the sit out period. He is leaving with the coach cutting him. I as many have seen 2nd 3rd year guys cut and to me that is unfair to the student. I didn't but should have asked if a freshman who is cut can he transfer without sitting out since he has no scholarship and was not on an official roster.
I think anyone who has a question that is important should call the NCAA. These rules are difficult to interpret and the advisors deal with this evry day. I was always on the phone with them and never got a bum steer. In fact they were only too willing to help.

I can only intepret what I read, and the NCAA Bylaws state that a counter is someone that gets athletic aid, and uses it, basically the day they set foot in class in the Fall.

These kids are counters in the Fall workouts. They are counters the entire year, so lets just say they are using baseball money, non-rostered officially until the Spring.

If coaches want to dole out 25% minimums to kids who they would cut in the Fall, that wouldn't make much sense at all, but who knows!!

I agree with your findings, but 30 kids next Fall, and 27 each year after will effectively be involved in some way in the roster, or the rostered monies.

quote:

I can only intepret what I read, and the NCAA Bylaws state that a counter is someone that gets athletic aid, and uses it, basically the day they set foot in class in the Fall.

There are a max of 27 scholarship players who are deemed to be on the official roster in the spring when it comes out. They are entitled to the money for the whole year even if a coach was crazy enough to cut them. They if cut would take up 1 of the 27 roster spots even if cut.

There is also a max of 27 NLIs signed for a BB program.

quote:

by bbhd: there has been a common belief in this thread and others that the tryout fall semester had a limit of 35 max under the new rules. They can have as many as they want and happen to show up. Max 27 scholarship guys who as it was put to me were deemed to be part of the official spring roster in spring 09.

there was no common belief, only the question that was asked & discussed

because your experience is with a DI program that over-recruits & then cuts alot of players in fall, you have a different perspective and are obsessed with the spring roster

if your discussion with ncaa was framed by the terms compliance date, counter defined, counter date, etc instead of "official spring roster" their responses would have led you to a different conclusion

quote:

there was no common belief, only the question that was asked & discussed

because your experience is with a DI program that over-recruits & then cuts alot of players in fall, you have a different perspective and are obsessed with the spring roster

if your discussion with ncaa was framed by the terms compliance date, counter defined, counter date, etc instead of "official spring roster" their responses would have led you to a different conclusion

Give it a rest. You can cry all you like and say I manipulated the answer but I asked several times in several different ways.
The fact is there is no team until spring official roster comes out. How confusing is this ?
On question I asked was when does the team have to be at 35 players and I was told clearly not until spring when the roster comes out. No confusion and no trick question.
I also asked how many guys can be there in the fall for tryouts and she said there was no limit. I explained what happened at my son's school and she said it was not a problem and common. The new rules would not affect that.
When did I ever complain about my son's school ? We were surprised there were so many guys but my son made the rosters and had a large BB and acdaemic scholarship.
We argued about the roster before and you were wrong. There is and never has been a roster in the fall. There is a list of players participating in the fall workouts and the teams hold a day or 2 of tryouts which are open to all registered students at the school who have proof of insurance and a health exam.

If the fall doesn't count why are schools putting up their 2007-2008 rosters (give or take approx 35 from those I have looked at ).


Also did you ask for this year or next when rules change?

Or was it in your previous conversations as Bee has suggested?

I think most schools are trying to comply early. The list they post has no effect on the compliance other than the 27 scholarship players.

Many schools have cut 2nd and 3rd year players this last season on the exit meeting. I can't say for sure but I think many coaches are trying to realign their programs which is scary . I feel for some players who might have had a chance to stay with a team and have been let go. We discussed guys who had been given options to move on. There is only 1 good reason for this and that is to free up money for compliance with the new rules.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
If the fall doesn't count why are schools putting up their 2007-2008 rosters (give or take approx 35 from those I have looked at ).


Also did you ask for this year or next when rules change?

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. My guess is they are far from official.

MTH I agree they are adjusting and making room to max their scholarships. You can create a list but no one knows who is a scholarshipped player.

I have done my share of surfin and looking at tentative Fall rosters. Those with the Freshmen players already posted are mostly hanging in the low 30's in count.

Some programs only have the returning players posted so far, and when you add in the new recruits, they are hanging around in the low to mid 30's.

It appears the alignments are being made in conjunction with the proposed rules. It also appears the days of stockpiling are over, which is good for the kids. How can a coach hold an open cattle call of 50-60 players of D1 talent when he is forced to carry only 35?

I am pleased the days of $400 in books, the equivalent of almost NO BASEBALL MONEY are done. That was a small price for the coach to pay to see if he had a diamond in the rough before he sent the kid packing! A kid deserves better, especially one with talent who may have been better served at a smaller program.

My guess is players 28-35 have usually been productive members on D1 rosters, and will continue to be as non-counters in the future. I will also guess players 36-45, if applicable, never saw the field.

The point is this. The coach now has to make the investment in the kid, and stick with it for at least one season. The only part of these proposed changes that need tweaking is the transfer rule.

If the coach grants 25% one year, then nothing the next, whose fault is it?

Yes, I remember a few screaming here how unfair the new UF coach was when trying to align his 45 man roster mess he walked into.

BBHD,
Didn't answer my question when was the last time you spoke to the NCAA? You made it seem like it was today.

If it was not, has teh rule changed, according to what I was to understand it goes for fall. If you recently spoke to NCAA then it's not. Don't confuse us more, please.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Yes, I remember a few screaming here how unfair the new UF coach was when trying to align his 45 man roster mess he walked into.

He set the right timetable to allow for the students to make a change. Such a big program, and 45 kids don't fit very easily into 9 spots at any given time.

quote:

BBHD,
Didn't answer my question when was the last time you spoke to the NCAA? You made it seem like it was today.

Approx an hour ago.