I believe he is correct regarding rosters and their official timetable, but under the new proposal, effectively the Fall rosters will have much more meaning, that is:
"here is a list of players which contain 30 counters"(in Fall 2008)
If the kid is off the roster come season opener, then you can say something like......the school has a kid on 25% athletic money not on the team.
Here is the # 317-917-6222. Be my guest.
I am not trying to win an argument with Bee or anyone else. I called because people are cofused and rather than make an unsutstatiated guess I wanted to get the facts. I asked Bee to give me an excert of therules showing he had the right idea. He didn't so I wanted to know.
I can't put things much simpler than I did.
Because there is no official roster until spring there is no compliance required. The only guys who are considered to be on the spring roster are the guys getting scholarship money from BB. (NLI) This doesn't iclude academic money for guy with no BB scholarship. If these guys make roster their funding will count according to the rules. Guys with academic money who are roster in previous years. Their academic money doesn't come into the equation. That money is grandfathered as it was already granted before.
If you look at what coaches are doing it will be confusing and I think anyone with a question about their son should call and get NCAA advice. I was not on this board when my son was signing so I talked to the NCAA regualrly as I had issues that are pertinent to a foreign student athlete. I also talked to the compliance officers at schools we were dealing with.
I am not trying to win an argument with Bee or anyone else. I called because people are cofused and rather than make an unsutstatiated guess I wanted to get the facts. I asked Bee to give me an excert of therules showing he had the right idea. He didn't so I wanted to know.
I can't put things much simpler than I did.
Because there is no official roster until spring there is no compliance required. The only guys who are considered to be on the spring roster are the guys getting scholarship money from BB. (NLI) This doesn't iclude academic money for guy with no BB scholarship. If these guys make roster their funding will count according to the rules. Guys with academic money who are roster in previous years. Their academic money doesn't come into the equation. That money is grandfathered as it was already granted before.
If you look at what coaches are doing it will be confusing and I think anyone with a question about their son should call and get NCAA advice. I was not on this board when my son was signing so I talked to the NCAA regualrly as I had issues that are pertinent to a foreign student athlete. I also talked to the compliance officers at schools we were dealing with.
quote:"here is a list of players which contain 30 counters"(in Fall 2008)
As it was explained to me they only become counters in the spring if they make the official roster. I am assuming you are talking about guys with academic money but no NLI (BB Scholarship)
You can only give 27 max BB scholarships so if a guy gets cut with BB money they lose a roster spot and can only carry 34 players.
The reason for this was that the money could not be taken away from the player. It was good for the year.
Sure scry if guys get hurt or become inelligble. There were lots of questions I didn't ask as I was trying to understand the fall issue and when BB had to comply to thye roster size. Some of the info they volunteered as we taked.
The reason for this was that the money could not be taken away from the player. It was good for the year.
Sure scry if guys get hurt or become inelligble. There were lots of questions I didn't ask as I was trying to understand the fall issue and when BB had to comply to thye roster size. Some of the info they volunteered as we taked.
Bobblehead
Did they explain how a school with 3.5 scholarships can be the same as a school with 11.7 scholarships in terms of the mandatory number of 25% scholarships ?
Did they explain how a school with 3.5 scholarships can be the same as a school with 11.7 scholarships in terms of the mandatory number of 25% scholarships ?
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:quote:BBHD,
Didn't answer my question when was the last time you spoke to the NCAA? You made it seem like it was today.
Approx an hour ago.
OK that's fair you answered my question.
quote:Bobblehead
Did they explain how a school with 3.5 scholarships can be the same as a school with 11.7 scholarships in terms of the mandatory number of 25% scholarships ?
TRhit
I don't think anyone has that answer.
I know I talked to a man who's Grandson was at Brown. He wasn't hurting for cash but he said they got no scholarship money and just wanted to attend that school. I suppose you nees wealthy students and a huge academic reputation. I was not sure if he was instate or not but the grandfather flew to Charleston from San Francisco.
TR,
Good question!
Pure academic money doesn't fit into the equation, the 27 is counter cap, if you give it has to be at least 25%. 25% is blended, they can give you 1% baseball and 24% academic. They essentially don't have to give out any baseball money at all if they don't want to.
When my son was offered at one school, they told us we didn't have to pay for any meals during season, it was paid for by the athletic department. Schools will find ways to get around finding ways without money to offer opportunities.
The schools that have been doing it right will continue, the ones with larger rosters will have to learn to adjust. redshirt is counted in the 35.
I see it says regular season squad so I am assuming that means spring.
Good question!
Pure academic money doesn't fit into the equation, the 27 is counter cap, if you give it has to be at least 25%. 25% is blended, they can give you 1% baseball and 24% academic. They essentially don't have to give out any baseball money at all if they don't want to.
When my son was offered at one school, they told us we didn't have to pay for any meals during season, it was paid for by the athletic department. Schools will find ways to get around finding ways without money to offer opportunities.
The schools that have been doing it right will continue, the ones with larger rosters will have to learn to adjust. redshirt is counted in the 35.
I see it says regular season squad so I am assuming that means spring.
Here is question, somewhat related:
I am a Freshman in FALL of 2008. I go to DI school A. I am getting ZERO athletic $$$ from school A. Go through FALL practice and coach cuts me. In early November, SCHOOL B has a WALK ON (no athletic $$) who they were counting on to play for them gets injured. I find out and talk to school B coach. He wants me to come play for him.
I decide to transfer to School B for the Spring semester. Can I play for school B in the Spring of 2009? Or do I have to sit?
One step further, I make school B's roster with no athletic $$$ in Spring 09. But I never play. I decide to transfer to School C in Fall 09 and want to play baseball for School C in Spring 2010. Can I do that?
Now, I understand from an academic perspective this is probably pretty crazy (probably losing credit hours), but I am just curious if it could be done (within the current AND/OR new rules)?
I am a Freshman in FALL of 2008. I go to DI school A. I am getting ZERO athletic $$$ from school A. Go through FALL practice and coach cuts me. In early November, SCHOOL B has a WALK ON (no athletic $$) who they were counting on to play for them gets injured. I find out and talk to school B coach. He wants me to come play for him.
I decide to transfer to School B for the Spring semester. Can I play for school B in the Spring of 2009? Or do I have to sit?
One step further, I make school B's roster with no athletic $$$ in Spring 09. But I never play. I decide to transfer to School C in Fall 09 and want to play baseball for School C in Spring 2010. Can I do that?
Now, I understand from an academic perspective this is probably pretty crazy (probably losing credit hours), but I am just curious if it could be done (within the current AND/OR new rules)?
Under the new rules , if you are transfering to a D1 you have to sit out a year. Has nothing to do with the money and I think it is unfair. Seems to protect coaches from having players flip flop.
I would call NCAA and discuss the situation before you do something like that.
The current rules you could get a release if the school would give you one and do it.
I would call NCAA and discuss the situation before you do something like that.
The current rules you could get a release if the school would give you one and do it.
quote:I decide to transfer to School B for the Spring semester. Can I play for school B in the Spring of 2009? Or do I have to sit?
It is my understanding that you would have to sit.
thanx - sooo they ARE on the roster/must be in compliance when they arrive on campus in fall like coach explainedquote:by bbhd: The only guys who are considered to be on the spring roster are the guys getting scholarship money from BB. (NLI)
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Bobblehead
Did they explain how a school with 3.5 scholarships can be the same as a school with 11.7 scholarships in terms of the mandatory number of 25% scholarships ?
Are there any schools in D1 so poorly partially-funded? If there are any, then they better have substantial other monies that don't count against the team equivalency to the tune of 3.25 to arrive at 6.75(27x25)
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:thanx - sooo they ARE on the roster/must be in compliance when they arrive on campus in fall like coach explainedquote:by bbhd: The only guys who are considered to be on the spring roster are the guys getting scholarship money from BB. (NLI)
Bee give it a rest. Your logic fails you. They are deemed to be on the roster when it comes out in the spring. This is not a tough concept. There is no roster until spring for the purpose of compliance. I really don't know why you have bit this roster thing and won't let go. Use the phone to verify what I was told. Adviser was very clear about this. The NLI guys are offered money which they get for the whole year. That is why they are deemed to be on the roster when it comes out in the spring. Once a coach doles out BB money on the NLI system it is good for the year. Once you reach 27 you can't give out anymore.
Other sports have official rosters in the fall and they have to comply to their rules.
quote:Are there any schools in D1 so poorly partially-funded?
Yes there are. Lots of schools do not fund the 11.7.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Bee give it a rest. Your logic fails you. They are deemed to be on the roster when it comes out in the spring. This is not a tough concept. There is no roster until spring for the purpose of compliance.
I will again refer to the Bylaws:
It appears that the designation of counters and non-counters will be made on the date of the NLI, in November 2007, and these kids will effectively be an official counter on the day he attends his first class.(see sidenote)
15.5 MAXIMUM INSTITUTIONAL GRAN T-IN-AID LIMITATIONS BY SPORT
15.5.1 Counters. A student-athlete shall be a counter and included in the maximum awards limitations set forth in this bylaw under the following conditions: (Revised: 6/10/04)
(a) Athletics Aid. A student-athlete who receives financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability shall become a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the financial aid.
Therefore, you have a tentative Fall(2008) roster of 30 counters, and the coach can add 31-35 as needed before the first game in 2009, as non-counters. Once deemed a counter, you are a counter(one of 30/27) the entire year.
When the student attends his first class, i.e his baseball grant is credited to his bill, he has utilized his grant and is automatically a counter, so the university is in COMPLIANCE at that point.
They are deemed to be on the roster at this point, the Fall they arrive. If they are cut and not on the Spring roster, the player is still a counter.
These kids are counters in the Fall workouts. They are counters the entire year, so lets just say they are using baseball money, non-rostered officially until the Spring.
I agree with your findings, but 30 kids next Fall, and 27 each year after will effectively be involved in some way in the roster, or the rostered monies.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:quote:Are there any schools in D1 so poorly partially-funded?
Yes there are. Lots of schools do not fund the 11.7.
I agree, but not to the tune of 3.5
quote:They are deemed to be on the roster at this point, the Fall they arrive. If they are cut and not on the Spring roster, the player is still a counter.
You are cofusing the issue and I suggest you call and get clarification.
You can only have 27 NLI and yes they are starting when they attend class and actually when they sign the NLI. They are deemed to be on the roster in the spring and a few will not be for one reason or another.
The coach will post the roster as required by the NCAA and that is the roster that has to comply. That was specifically stated to me.
I am not sure why you guys are beating yourselves up on this. If you want to confuse people go right ahead. I did what I had to to find out the answer. They were very clear. There is no official roster until it is posted in the spring. As I told Bee call the list of participants in the fall workout what you like.
maybe it'll be clearer when translated into French/Canadian - eh??quote:by bblhd's NCAA by-law: the designation of counters and non-counters will be made on the date of the NLI, in November 2007, and these kids will effectively be an official counter on the day he attends his first class
so why is your school's recruiting class down 25%??quote:by bblhd: As I told Bee call the list of participants in the fall workout what you like.
1) Accident??
2) Co-incidence??
3) Compliance??
What an idiot you are.BEE. Sore loser ? Have to show your true colors.
For your info CSU had the most Presindential honor role students of any school in the Big South. They just received an International award for their commerce department which my son is in.
Yes they are having a tough recruiting year but I aqm not going to discuss that witha cheap shot moron.
All I will say is my son loves the school and the City and could have left but he honors his commitment.
For your info CSU had the most Presindential honor role students of any school in the Big South. They just received an International award for their commerce department which my son is in.
Yes they are having a tough recruiting year but I aqm not going to discuss that witha cheap shot moron.
All I will say is my son loves the school and the City and could have left but he honors his commitment.
This site will tell you what each schools spends on their sports programs. Thsi info has to be reported to the NCAA.
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstList.asp
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstList.asp
Just 2 things that I'm confused with after reading all these posts and trying to catch-up
(1) I belive there are schools here in the Northeast and possibly other parts also that play a fall schedule. It may only be 3-5 games but they come off the 56 game allotment. they do this because they don't usually get in the full 56 because of weather. Question: How are these rosters effected?
(2) I follow all that BBHD has written but disagree with the 27 "NLI". The NLI is only signed by the incoming freshman class ? it is not signed by transfers. I know this since my son has just transfered, is getting "baseball" money, received the offer sheet from the school but it was not a NLI as he signed the first time. Question: is this just termonology that you used or is this going to be something new?
Otherwise, great info and debate. I also know of quite a few schools under 5 scholarships that will be forced to blend in order to reach the 25%.
(1) I belive there are schools here in the Northeast and possibly other parts also that play a fall schedule. It may only be 3-5 games but they come off the 56 game allotment. they do this because they don't usually get in the full 56 because of weather. Question: How are these rosters effected?
(2) I follow all that BBHD has written but disagree with the 27 "NLI". The NLI is only signed by the incoming freshman class ? it is not signed by transfers. I know this since my son has just transfered, is getting "baseball" money, received the offer sheet from the school but it was not a NLI as he signed the first time. Question: is this just termonology that you used or is this going to be something new?
Otherwise, great info and debate. I also know of quite a few schools under 5 scholarships that will be forced to blend in order to reach the 25%.
Coach Merc the D1 schools can only play intersquad games. Most refer to it as a mini world series.
I used the term for anyone reciving BB money. I am not sure about transfers but I understood it to mean all new guys at the school. I could be wrong on that. The 27 max # of scholarships applies and what I was told was that they are the only ones deemed to be on the official roster in the spring when it comes out per NCAA rules.
I assume the significance of that is that this money is locked for a year and that these players will be on the official roster. I remember the advisor pointing out that if a Scholarship player was cut they lost a roster spot out of the 35.
Part of the confusion is that some grants and scholarships are counted toward the total scholarship money allowed. They mention academic money already granted in previous years was exzempt. Not sure why other than it could hurt a student who was already in the program.
They mentioned that the max NLIs was 27 but you are right in that not all would need one. Not sure how they handle transfers. I am sure my son didn't sign one last year but not sure.
I used the term for anyone reciving BB money. I am not sure about transfers but I understood it to mean all new guys at the school. I could be wrong on that. The 27 max # of scholarships applies and what I was told was that they are the only ones deemed to be on the official roster in the spring when it comes out per NCAA rules.
I assume the significance of that is that this money is locked for a year and that these players will be on the official roster. I remember the advisor pointing out that if a Scholarship player was cut they lost a roster spot out of the 35.
Part of the confusion is that some grants and scholarships are counted toward the total scholarship money allowed. They mention academic money already granted in previous years was exzempt. Not sure why other than it could hurt a student who was already in the program.
They mentioned that the max NLIs was 27 but you are right in that not all would need one. Not sure how they handle transfers. I am sure my son didn't sign one last year but not sure.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Merc:
Just 2 things that I'm confused with after reading all these posts and trying to catch-up
(1) I belive there are schools here in the Northeast and possibly other parts also that play a fall schedule. It may only be 3-5 games but they come off the 56 game allotment. they do this because they don't usually get in the full 56 because of weather. Question: How are these rosters effected?
That's a great question. Maybe the answer to this one will clarify the roster dates debate.
It still appears to me that if you look ahead and take the new proposed rule changes into effect, the counter date will be the official roster date simply because these 30/27 players fit the definition on the day they arrive in class, in the Fall.
Here is my point. When a player becomes a counter(Fall) according to definition of terms in the bylaws, whether or not he plays/dresses/practices with the team, he is a counter for the entire season, cannot be replaced, and in effect is TAKING UP A ROSTER SPOT.
Thats my position, right or wrong, and the overall reason I take that position relates to the fact that coaches under the new rules will recruit much more diligently, actually forced to, where in the past, they held book tryouts at certain programs.
FO posted about the NLI a few weeks back. It is an agreement to play for a school in lieu of a reward (money). It stops the recruiting process and if I understand it correctly you only sign ONCE. You do however have to sign your scholarship agreement with the school annually or each semester which as nothing to do with the NLI.
BBHD thanks for the response. Here's is where it gets tricky. I just checked on one D1 program (I remember seeing a headline, but they do in-fact play a fall schedule of 3 games. They will come off the top of the 56 allowed in the year.
Tue., Sept. 11-- First Practice; 3 p.m. (Earl Lorden Field)
Sat., Sept. 22-- Alumni Game; Noon (Earl Lorden Field)
Sat., Oct. 6-- Brown; Noon (Earl Lorden Field)
Sun., Oct. 7-- Vermont; Noon (Burlington, VT)
Sun., Oct. 14-- Dartmouth; Noon (Hanover, NH)
Back to the question for the NCAA: When does their roster become official as for the 35.
Tue., Sept. 11-- First Practice; 3 p.m. (Earl Lorden Field)
Sat., Sept. 22-- Alumni Game; Noon (Earl Lorden Field)
Sat., Oct. 6-- Brown; Noon (Earl Lorden Field)
Sun., Oct. 7-- Vermont; Noon (Burlington, VT)
Sun., Oct. 14-- Dartmouth; Noon (Hanover, NH)
Back to the question for the NCAA: When does their roster become official as for the 35.
DI programs "by rule" CAN, and in fact some DO play fall games, as C Merc pointed out.quote:by bbhd: Coach Merc the D1 schools can only play intersquad games. Most refer to it as a mini world series.
it will likely become more popular w/new uniform start date & compressed season
also as C Merc notes, the "clock" for ncaa 56 game DI limit starts in fall ...
if 3 games played in fall ... only 53 can be played in spring.
how can this be?
there is NO roster during fall ...
are all uni #s removed, scorebook kept w/disappearing ink, using ninja umps?
hmmm, fall game stats DO appear in ncaa's automated scorebook
w/players names aligned to their left .. looking eeerily similar to a _ _ _ _ _ _ (fill in blanks)
now that's a thoughtful responsequote:from pg 3:
(Q-Bee) so why is your school's recruiting class down 25%??
(A-Bblhd) What an idiot you are.BEE. Sore loser ? Have to show your true colors.
For your info CSU had the most Presindential honor role students of any school in the Big South. They just received an International award
my question was posed to allow you to see that pgms that traditionaly have "cattle call" fall tryouts, can no longer do so ...
instead you've oddly concluded that CSU simply couldn't find players
(even tho they got an international award)
that's some fine thinking
I'm new at reading NCAA regulations, so take this with a grain of salt. It appears that a Division I team will be able to play in 56 regular games during the season. However, the season is broken into two segments-- one beginning on September 1, and a second, termed the championship segment, which begins on a Friday in February and lasts 13 weeks.
Then,
"17.4.8.3 Squad Size Limitation -- Championship Segment. An institution shall declare a squad of a maximum of 35 student-athletes by the day prior to its first scheduled contest in the championship segment of the playing and practice season. Only those student-athletes who are declared as squad members at that time shall be eligible to participate in countable athletically related activities during the remainder of the championship segment."
I find the history of this squad size proposal interesting:
"History
Apr 25, 2007 Submit; Submitted for consideration.
Apr 26, 2007 Board Consideration, Adopted
Apr 27, 2007 Adopted, Override Period; Start of Override Period
Jun 25, 2007 Adopted, Override Period; End of Override Period; (Number of Override Request = 72)
Jun 26, 2007 Board Review; Based on the number of override requests received, the Board of Directors will review its action on the proposal at its August 2007 meeting.
Aug 09, 2007 Board Review, Adopted; The Board amended the proposal to specify that an institution shall provide each counter athletically related and other countable financial aid that is equal to or greater than 25 percent of an equivalency. The Board then adopted the proposal as amended. Previously, the proposal required a 33 percent minimum value base only on athletically related financial aid.
Aug 10, 2007 Adopted, Override Period; Start of Override Period
Oct 08, 2007 Adopted, Override Period; End of Override Period; (Number of Override Request = 12)"
Then,
"17.4.8.3 Squad Size Limitation -- Championship Segment. An institution shall declare a squad of a maximum of 35 student-athletes by the day prior to its first scheduled contest in the championship segment of the playing and practice season. Only those student-athletes who are declared as squad members at that time shall be eligible to participate in countable athletically related activities during the remainder of the championship segment."
I find the history of this squad size proposal interesting:
"History
Apr 25, 2007 Submit; Submitted for consideration.
Apr 26, 2007 Board Consideration, Adopted
Apr 27, 2007 Adopted, Override Period; Start of Override Period
Jun 25, 2007 Adopted, Override Period; End of Override Period; (Number of Override Request = 72)
Jun 26, 2007 Board Review; Based on the number of override requests received, the Board of Directors will review its action on the proposal at its August 2007 meeting.
Aug 09, 2007 Board Review, Adopted; The Board amended the proposal to specify that an institution shall provide each counter athletically related and other countable financial aid that is equal to or greater than 25 percent of an equivalency. The Board then adopted the proposal as amended. Previously, the proposal required a 33 percent minimum value base only on athletically related financial aid.
Aug 10, 2007 Adopted, Override Period; Start of Override Period
Oct 08, 2007 Adopted, Override Period; End of Override Period; (Number of Override Request = 12)"
Very good research. I feel these debates eventually help find answers. The verbage that followed was this:
Rationale: The average number of baseball student-athletes receiving athletics aid among Division I baseball programs is 27, however, there are some programs that annually exceed as many as 40 baseball student-athletes receiving some portion of aid. A minimum award of athletically related and other countable financial aid at 25% of an equivalency ensures an appropriate balance between addressing student-athlete well-being for those reluctant to serve a year of transfer residence and the ability of baseball coaches to effectively and efficiently manage distribution of 11.7 equivalencies. Requiring the 25% minimum helps ensure the baseball program is truly committed to the student-athlete, thereby encouraging more responsible recruiting and making it less likely for coaches to facilitate transfers of student-athletes to whom they are significantly committed financially.
Coaches will be less likely to employ a "run-off" strategy of squad size maintenance after having what amounts to a fall term tryout if the number of counters is limited at the outset. Encouraging a student-athlete who is one of 27 counters to transfer during the academic year will not only cost that institution NCAA Division I Academic Progress Rate points, but the institution will not be able to replace that student-athlete with another counter.
**** The key highlighted phrase is # of counters "at the outset"
**** The key point is a counter is determined in the Fall upon taking the first class, which by rule takes up a roster spot.
(Championship Segment)
February 1 of each year February 22, 2008;
February 20, 2009; February 26, 2010
Conclusion of the NCAA Division
I Baseball Championship
(Other Segment) September 1 of each year September 1 of each year November 30 of each year
**** So prior to the proposed rules changes, teams had a Fall roster for the "other segment", and a final roster declared for the Championship season.
The new rules dictate that a counter is established when the player arrives to his first class therefore using his 25% minimum aid as a credit to his fees. That counter is now a rostered player by rule in the Fall whether he plays, sits, not uniformed, doesn't matter.
17.4.1 L ength of Playing Season. The length of an institution’s playing season in baseball shall be limited
to a 132-day season, which may consist of two segments. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91, 1/14/97 effective
8/1/97, 1/9/06 effective 8/1/07)
17.4.1.1 Championship Segment. An institution’s championship segment must consist of consecutive
days and may exclude only required off days per Bylaw 17.1.6.4 and official vacation, holiday and finalexamination
periods during which no practice or competition shall occur. (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/07)
17.4.1.2 Nonchampionship Segment. An institution’s nonchampionship segment shall be conducted
within a period of 45 consecutive calendar days during the months of September, October and November
under the following conditions: (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/07)
(a) Days used for practice or competition must be counted toward the 132-day season, but are not required
to be consecutive;
(b) Days during which countable athletically related activities are limited solely to required conditioning
activities and/or in skill-related instruction are not required to count toward the 132-day season;
(c) During any week in which practice or competition occurs, a student-athlete’s involvement in countable
athletically related activities shall be limited to a maximum of four hours per day and 20 hours per week
and all countable athletically related activities are prohibited during one calendar day per week; and
(d) Any week in which practice or competition does not occur shall be considered outside the playing season
Rationale: The average number of baseball student-athletes receiving athletics aid among Division I baseball programs is 27, however, there are some programs that annually exceed as many as 40 baseball student-athletes receiving some portion of aid. A minimum award of athletically related and other countable financial aid at 25% of an equivalency ensures an appropriate balance between addressing student-athlete well-being for those reluctant to serve a year of transfer residence and the ability of baseball coaches to effectively and efficiently manage distribution of 11.7 equivalencies. Requiring the 25% minimum helps ensure the baseball program is truly committed to the student-athlete, thereby encouraging more responsible recruiting and making it less likely for coaches to facilitate transfers of student-athletes to whom they are significantly committed financially.
Coaches will be less likely to employ a "run-off" strategy of squad size maintenance after having what amounts to a fall term tryout if the number of counters is limited at the outset. Encouraging a student-athlete who is one of 27 counters to transfer during the academic year will not only cost that institution NCAA Division I Academic Progress Rate points, but the institution will not be able to replace that student-athlete with another counter.
**** The key highlighted phrase is # of counters "at the outset"
**** The key point is a counter is determined in the Fall upon taking the first class, which by rule takes up a roster spot.
(Championship Segment)
February 1 of each year February 22, 2008;
February 20, 2009; February 26, 2010
Conclusion of the NCAA Division
I Baseball Championship
(Other Segment) September 1 of each year September 1 of each year November 30 of each year
**** So prior to the proposed rules changes, teams had a Fall roster for the "other segment", and a final roster declared for the Championship season.
The new rules dictate that a counter is established when the player arrives to his first class therefore using his 25% minimum aid as a credit to his fees. That counter is now a rostered player by rule in the Fall whether he plays, sits, not uniformed, doesn't matter.
17.4.1 L ength of Playing Season. The length of an institution’s playing season in baseball shall be limited
to a 132-day season, which may consist of two segments. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91, 1/14/97 effective
8/1/97, 1/9/06 effective 8/1/07)
17.4.1.1 Championship Segment. An institution’s championship segment must consist of consecutive
days and may exclude only required off days per Bylaw 17.1.6.4 and official vacation, holiday and finalexamination
periods during which no practice or competition shall occur. (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/07)
17.4.1.2 Nonchampionship Segment. An institution’s nonchampionship segment shall be conducted
within a period of 45 consecutive calendar days during the months of September, October and November
under the following conditions: (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/07)
(a) Days used for practice or competition must be counted toward the 132-day season, but are not required
to be consecutive;
(b) Days during which countable athletically related activities are limited solely to required conditioning
activities and/or in skill-related instruction are not required to count toward the 132-day season;
(c) During any week in which practice or competition occurs, a student-athlete’s involvement in countable
athletically related activities shall be limited to a maximum of four hours per day and 20 hours per week
and all countable athletically related activities are prohibited during one calendar day per week; and
(d) Any week in which practice or competition does not occur shall be considered outside the playing season
Sure there are. My data is old now, but when son was in the recruiting phase Boston College & Georgetown were both in the neighborhood of 3-4 scholarships for the baseball team. I'm sure there are others.quote:Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:quote:Are there any schools in D1 so poorly partially-funded?
Yes there are. Lots of schools do not fund the 11.7.
I agree, but not to the tune of 3.5
***BC is a private CSS based school. The CSS formula is much more comprehensive and beneficial to the student-family financial status.***
"Boston College offers a variety of grants, loans and employment to assist students in financing a Boston College education. All financial assistance, with the exception of the Presidential Scholars Program is awarded on the basis of need. Boston College is committed to providing funds to meet the full demonstrated need of every admitted student who has filed the required paperwork to apply for financial aid.
Overall, 62 percent of the Class of 2010 received some form of financial aid from Boston College. This assistance included more than $15.6 million in institutional need-based grants."
***GTOWN is about the same and also uses CSS***
Need-Blind Admissions: Georgetown University practices "need-blind" admissions; an applicant's ability to meet college costs is not a criteria for admission.
Need-Based Financial Aid: Georgetown awards financial aid funds on the basis of demonstrated financial need. The University is committed to meeting 100% of the full demonstrated financial need of its' eligible undergraduates.
****In my experience with a private school of this type during the recruiting process it was concluded that if the student-athlete has wonderful grades, i.e 3.5 gpa and is a dynamite baseball player, they will find a way, regardless of the low amount of equivalencies.
Who are the public universities that are poorly funded?
"Boston College offers a variety of grants, loans and employment to assist students in financing a Boston College education. All financial assistance, with the exception of the Presidential Scholars Program is awarded on the basis of need. Boston College is committed to providing funds to meet the full demonstrated need of every admitted student who has filed the required paperwork to apply for financial aid.
Overall, 62 percent of the Class of 2010 received some form of financial aid from Boston College. This assistance included more than $15.6 million in institutional need-based grants."
***GTOWN is about the same and also uses CSS***
Need-Blind Admissions: Georgetown University practices "need-blind" admissions; an applicant's ability to meet college costs is not a criteria for admission.
Need-Based Financial Aid: Georgetown awards financial aid funds on the basis of demonstrated financial need. The University is committed to meeting 100% of the full demonstrated financial need of its' eligible undergraduates.
****In my experience with a private school of this type during the recruiting process it was concluded that if the student-athlete has wonderful grades, i.e 3.5 gpa and is a dynamite baseball player, they will find a way, regardless of the low amount of equivalencies.
Who are the public universities that are poorly funded?
FYI.....my 2008 son received a recruiting letter from Georgetown specifically stating that for his recruiting class and beyond, Georgetown was going to fully fund their baseball schollys.......
I just got off the phone after speaking with two people at NCAA.
First one said I knew more than she did, she transfered me to someone in the baseball group, who told me that they too are in confusion regarding the new 35 man roster compliance and when it begins.
They referred me to some supervisor who is baseball specific and I left a message on his voice mail.
Very hard to get a clear cut answer from the NCAA.
First one said I knew more than she did, she transfered me to someone in the baseball group, who told me that they too are in confusion regarding the new 35 man roster compliance and when it begins.
They referred me to some supervisor who is baseball specific and I left a message on his voice mail.
Very hard to get a clear cut answer from the NCAA.
quote:Originally posted by jbbaseball:
FYI.....my 2008 son received a recruiting letter from Georgetown specifically stating that for his recruiting class and beyond, Georgetown was going to fully fund their baseball schollys.......
Good timing on this post for this reason. This probably will happen to all the "private schools"
that were baseball underfunded. How's this for a twist because of the rules changes:
Say a school like BC had 5 equivalencies. Under the rules of "counter", it states that the player who receives a portion of the baseball money is a counter.
15.5.1 Counters. A student-athlete shall be a counter and included in the maximum awards limitations set
forth in this bylaw under the following conditions: (Revised: 6/10/04)
(a) Athletics Aid. A student-athlete who receives financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability shall become a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the financial aid;
A student at a school like this who got need-based monies under the exception 15.5.1.1 No Athletics Aid—Certification Required. A student-athlete (except for a recruited football or
basketball student-athlete) who receives institutional financial aid (as set forth in Bylaw 15.02.4.1) shall not be a
counter if there is on file in the office of the athletics director certification by the faculty athletics representative
and the director of financial aid that the student-athlete’s financial aid was granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability.
This player would be a non-counter and the need-based grants not counted toward the team equivalency.
With the new rules, there has to be 27 counters, so the math doesn't work meaning ALL D1 teams have to become partially-funded to the point of at least (27x25)..............but
If a school like BC is now required to have 27 counters, none of them can get the exception rule 15.5.1.1 anymore, so all that need-based money will now count toward the team equivalency ???
Effectively, the school will just reclassify the funds from the need-based pot to the baseball pot, but:
There will be some students who before would get the lions share of their education paid for that will have to settle for much less, or go elsewhere.
I suppose they will figure out creative financing, as a TPM mentioned, other ways to makeup the funding, ala more academic funds, granted the student has at least the required criteria to exempt the monies from the team count
Pretty crazy
This is really terrific information posted above. Actually to the tune that TPM wites, the folks at the NCCA aren't sure... 
quote:Originally posted by Coach Merc:
This is really terrific information posted above. Actually to the tune that TPM wites, the folks at the NCCA aren't sure...
So I propose that the equipment companies, specifically the bat makers fully fund each D1 baseball program with 27 full-rides, take the NCAA if/then bylaws and use them in a celebratory national bonfire honoring their great bottom line profits garnered from all the kids out there whose parents fork out $350 annually
agree, good discussion and alot of interesting stuff
they are very polite, but also seem flabbergasted if the caller is the least bit knowledgablequote:by TPM: I just got off the phone after speaking with two people at NCAA ... they too are in confusion regarding the new 35 man roster compliance and when it begins
Bee you got the response you deserve. You have turned this discussion personal from the beginning.
The official roster is in the spring according to the NCAA advisor.
You took the time to check out the list of players that is postede which by the way is the 1st time ever they have posted a list before Jan . You implied the school was an over recruiter and infact the coach is in his 4th year and has made changes. He is a young coach and is learning as he goes. He has just hired a great P coach who was at San Francisco State and my son says he is excellent.
I have always been under the impression that the D1 NCAA schools could not play any games other than intersqaud prior to the official starting date in the spring which has been moved into late Feb. If they can play in the fall why would the starting date be set uniformly by the NCAA. I follow a lot of schools and they all play only in the spring other than inter squad. After the fall the team was cut to size and I believe our team carried 37 last season.
Our school like all others is limited to practice time allowed in the fall and most is 3 or 4 on 1. I have never asked the NCAA about this and really not concerned about it. If I become concern I will call the NCAA.
The official roster is in the spring according to the NCAA advisor.
You took the time to check out the list of players that is postede which by the way is the 1st time ever they have posted a list before Jan . You implied the school was an over recruiter and infact the coach is in his 4th year and has made changes. He is a young coach and is learning as he goes. He has just hired a great P coach who was at San Francisco State and my son says he is excellent.
I have always been under the impression that the D1 NCAA schools could not play any games other than intersqaud prior to the official starting date in the spring which has been moved into late Feb. If they can play in the fall why would the starting date be set uniformly by the NCAA. I follow a lot of schools and they all play only in the spring other than inter squad. After the fall the team was cut to size and I believe our team carried 37 last season.
Our school like all others is limited to practice time allowed in the fall and most is 3 or 4 on 1. I have never asked the NCAA about this and really not concerned about it. If I become concern I will call the NCAA.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Bee you got the response you deserve. You have turned this discussion personal from the beginning.
The official roster is in the spring according to the NCAA advisor.
Not anymore by rule/bylaw/conter/25% etc.
I will cut and paste again, and stick with it.
Very good research. I feel these debates eventually help find answers. The verbage that followed was this:
Rationale: The average number of baseball student-athletes receiving athletics aid among Division I baseball programs is 27, however, there are some programs that annually exceed as many as 40 baseball student-athletes receiving some portion of aid. A minimum award of athletically related and other countable financial aid at 25% of an equivalency ensures an appropriate balance between addressing student-athlete well-being for those reluctant to serve a year of transfer residence and the ability of baseball coaches to effectively and efficiently manage distribution of 11.7 equivalencies. Requiring the 25% minimum helps ensure the baseball program is truly committed to the student-athlete, thereby encouraging more responsible recruiting and making it less likely for coaches to facilitate transfers of student-athletes to whom they are significantly committed financially.
Coaches will be less likely to employ a "run-off" strategy of squad size maintenance after having what amounts to a fall term tryout if the number of counters is limited at the outset. Encouraging a student-athlete who is one of 27 counters to transfer during the academic year will not only cost that institution NCAA Division I Academic Progress Rate points, but the institution will not be able to replace that student-athlete with another counter.
**** The key highlighted phrase is # of counters "at the outset"
**** The key point is a counter is determined in the Fall upon taking the first class, which by rule takes up a roster spot.
(Championship Segment)
February 1 of each year February 22, 2008;
February 20, 2009; February 26, 2010
Conclusion of the NCAA Division
I Baseball Championship
(Other Segment) September 1 of each year September 1 of each year November 30 of each year
**** So prior to the proposed rules changes, teams had a Fall roster for the "other segment", and a final roster declared for the Championship season.
The new rules dictate that a counter is established when the player arrives to his first class therefore using his 25% minimum aid as a credit to his fees. That counter is now a rostered player by rule in the Fall whether he plays, sits, not uniformed, doesn't matter.
17.4.1 L ength of Playing Season. The length of an institution’s playing season in baseball shall be limited
to a 132-day season, which may consist of two segments. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91, 1/14/97 effective
8/1/97, 1/9/06 effective 8/1/07)
17.4.1.1 Championship Segment. An institution’s championship segment must consist of consecutive
days and may exclude only required off days per Bylaw 17.1.6.4 and official vacation, holiday and finalexamination
periods during which no practice or competition shall occur. (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/07)
17.4.1.2 Nonchampionship Segment. An institution’s nonchampionship segment shall be conducted
within a period of 45 consecutive calendar days during the months of September, October and November
under the following conditions: (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/07)
(a) Days used for practice or competition must be counted toward the 132-day season, but are not required
to be consecutive;
(b) Days during which countable athletically related activities are limited solely to required conditioning
activities and/or in skill-related instruction are not required to count toward the 132-day season;
(c) During any week in which practice or competition occurs, a student-athlete’s involvement in countable
athletically related activities shall be limited to a maximum of four hours per day and 20 hours per week
and all countable athletically related activities are prohibited during one calendar day per week; and
(d) Any week in which practice or competition does not occur shall be considered outside the playing season
TPM when I called they asked me what it was about and they put me through to the advisor on BB who was not confused in the least.
I asked my question several ways and got concise responses. The Adv offered several insights on the rules.
I asked my question several ways and got concise responses. The Adv offered several insights on the rules.