Acting/Lying...Part of the game or cheating?

Its an imperfect game, by design. Imperfection and the success and failures of the human element is what makes the game exciting. And.... now it's been ratcheted up another notch!

Either way, it's on like Donkey Kong! GED10DaD

You can bet Jetter is going to be drilled and won't have to fake it next time he comes to bat against the Rays.

I thought it was a great play all the way around. Jeter did his job...he got on base. Maddon did his job...he defended his team to the point of ejection. And Johnson did his job...he hit TWO 2-run home runs that won the game for the Rays.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
You can bet Jetter is going to be drilled and won't have to fake it next time he comes to bat against the Rays.

I agree. Too bad it was a one-run game in the 9th or it could have happened right there!

So what will be the "moral" discussion when that happens?

Vlad; you can't tell the difference in sound between the bat and bone; like wrist or elbow.

I have experienced as player, coach and umpire when the ball hits and by the sound you would swear it hit bat; and then in a minute or two you've got a great big swollen lump on the batter.

To me what happened was just baseball.
The ump called what he called it and stuck with it.
Derek moved away, once the ump made the call I do wish he would have just hustled on to first, but it was all ready called and at that point it's over.

To me, tennis is the only sport that has a decent replay. NFL replay sucks. Half the time the ref won't change it to what they should; and you can get 2 appeals right and you are now out of appeals and the very next play might be the biggest hose job ever.

Have a great day everyone.

vladfan, or, anyone else who disliked the outcome,

Lets say it the batter was on your favorite team who was in the hunt for a playoff birth.

Would you still argue the play and the outcome?

Would you hope that any questionable play that went in favor of your team be reversed if it was shown to be wrong.

or,

Would you say "We got a break there, that's baseball"

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
Personally I'm giving the credit to Jeter's past actress girlfriends who sacrificed late nights teaching Derek his thespian talents.

Wow. I had no idea he liked thespians. Explains why he's still single, I guess...

If I was commissioner for a day, we would do the following:

1) Instant replay on everything EXCEPT balls and strikes
2) Two challenges per game per team, extra challenge in extra innings

I don't blame Jeter, and I don't blame the umpire in this case. The game is getting faster and it will continue to get faster. Technology is part of the solution. A process needs to be developed and attempted by MLB. So far they are not willing to do much, not even test drive instant replay. They have to be willing to try, and so far they are putting their heads in the sand and saying "la-la-la-la" just like they did with steroids. They will not acknowlege there is a problem. The risk is losing relevancy against other major sports.

Yes gotwood4sale, Jeter is a big ham! BOF, I hope your right.

I should have started a new thread...what would you do if you were commish for a day

rz1, if the correct call is made, whether by an on field offical or replay, no one can argue or complain about the call. Favorite team or not, reversal or not.

I understand that humans make mistakes but it's hard to swallow a possible loss caused by anyone other than a player. I want games decided by players throwing, hitting, running and catching. Not officals making, or not makeing calls. And not by players trying fake out an umpire. They have a rule in football about faking injuries at the end of games.

If the officals were as much a part of the game as a player they would be paid the same as players.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
You can bet Jetter is going to be drilled and won't have to fake it next time he comes to bat against the Rays.

I agree. Too bad it was a one-run game in the 9th or it could have happened right there!

So what will be the "moral" discussion when that happens?

As much as I think the Rays would like to do it, I'm not so sure that it will happen right away. Too much baseball left between the two teams with 4 game series in NY next week and then a possible clash in the ALCS. If the game result went the other way, there would be more of a chance of it happening, as there would be more rage involved, but since the Rays won, they may think they got their due right there.

It is bad enough that our kids walk around with their heads down texting----look at the tables the next time you go to a restaurant half the people at the tables have their heads down t and you will see half of the people at the tables texting---

TECHNOLOGY --Bah humbug !!! It has its place but we as a society have gone overboard with it--use robots instead of umpires then

vlad you would be amazed at how loud it gets on the field and how little you can hear. This past spring my team played in the state championship played at a minor league park. The place wasn't close to being full because we play in the smallest clasification. In the third game of the series we went 9 innings and starting with the 6th inning when we tied it up and into the 9th inning you could not hear anything by anybody at anytime. We were in the first base dugout and our 1Bman couldn't hear us and he was only 10 - 15 yards away.

Before we played in this series I would agree that the ump should have heard that but now - I can see where that would be impossible to hear. You can't compare a Class 1A state championship to a Yanks / Rays series that determines playoffs in September in terms of loudness. If we had a hard time hearing I can't imagine how loud it was for them.

quote:

...what would you do if you were commish for a day

I'd make Manny run poles after every game until he made up for all his cr@ppy outfielding.

Yes, I saw the play. I guess I'm right because the umpires sent Jeter to first, didn't they?

You can tell who played the game and who didn't based on their standpoint on Jeter's HBP.

redbird what's your point? Playing one sport is the same as playing another. I never played an inning of organized baseball, but I played basketball into college. My point is I don't want umpires or referees deciding games regardless of the sport. Games should be decided by players.

The game last night was decided by the players as the huge majority of the games are.

quote:

The game last night was decided by the players as the huge majority of the games are.

Another great point on the other side of the coin.

Something we used to tell the boys all the time. "Don't leave the game up to the umps to decide"

They do and will make mistakes so if you take care of business on the field, it usually makes those mistakes less impactful.

I still stay on the side of a very limited number of challenges and leave the balls and strikes out of the equation. I would at least like to see it tried. Heck, it may end up being a huge mistake in the end but at least we would know.

Just an aside...don't some fields have microphones very close to the field of play so that the sounds of the game are picked up for broadcast? It would not surprise me if the sound that was so clear to us on replay was not audible on the field of play.

Last night's game was, but what if that situation happend with the bases loaded in the 9th inning? There have been instances where the wrong call decided the outcome of a game.

How can instant replay in limited situations hurt a game? I'm not buying slowing the game down, TV and money have already done that.

Good baseball, a part of the Game?

Are was it a Bush League play?

What determine's if it's "Bush" are Just Good Baseball?


Splitting hairs aren't we.

EH

It Changes The Game! Traditionalists do not want to change the game!

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
If I was commissioner for a day, we would do the following:

1) Instant replay on everything EXCEPT balls and strikes
2) Two challenges per game per team, extra challenge in extra innings

I could live with this level of review. Maybe even automatic review for all home-runs. The arguments for the human element don't make sense to me in that case.

I think the strike zone, balk rule, and safe/out calls need to remain sacred, though.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
rz1, if the correct call is made, whether by an on field offical or replay, no one can argue or complain about the call. Favorite team or not, reversal or not.
My point was that our opinions on a "big picture" are many times weighted by our personal preferences or agenda. That's not a fault....that's human nature.

I understand that humans make mistakes but it's hard to swallow a possible loss caused by anyone other than a player.

Who loses.....you....me....Joe Blow? It's a freakin game where we watch for entertainment purposes. When you have a game that is based on lines, moving zones, "set-or not" scenarios, player safety, and other baseball quirks you are bound to have questionable human intervention, maybe right, maybe wrong. The only place they have perfected the the officiating is when you play an interactive game. Is that the sterile game you want?

They have a rule in football about faking injuries at the end of games.

The best part of sokker is when a player is hurt and when laying on the field, he is given his last rites, his teammates are on their knees crying their eyes out for their lost brother. He is then carted off the field only to return full sprint 5 minutes later. Now that's acting.

If the officals were as much a part of the game as a player they would be paid the same as players.

With that logic you are saying every player shoud be paid the same?

I like when Jeter was asked by a reporter in the locker room "where did the ball hit?" Jeter answered "the bat but the umpire told me to go to 1st base" I think that says more about what kind of player he is more then anything else.One of the many reasons why he has the biggest winning% in MLB.

I am honestly surprised that anyone would have an issue with what Jeter did last night. His goal in that situation was simple... get to first base.

many other have chimed in about stealing signs, framing pitches, tipping off what is coming from second base, swiping a quick tag to sell an out and the list goes on...

bothsports,
I think it is a matter of degree. If a player traps a ball and then shows he's got it in his glove the interpretation of that is up to the umpire. If a player were to knowingly trap a ball and come up shouting "I caught it, I caught it." then that would be wrong.

In one case you are letting the umpire make the call and trying to get the best result on a particular call because some are going to go for you and some are going to go against you. In the second case you are just plain cheating.

Jeter's is a bit more grey because he didn't outright lie. However, the act was a bit overboard and in my mind it was cheating and wrong. Once again that's JMO and I fully understand the majority who don't see any problem with it.

Like I said earlier Jeter has only hurt himself and his team with that little act. He didn't affect the outcome of the game and now umpires are going to be less likely to give him the benefit of the doubt on close calls.

I think BOF's scenario for the next Rays-Yanks series is going to be interesting. If they do plunk him will the umpires even notice that he was hit? Will they issue a warning or not? I think it would be pretty funny if he was plunked good and solid and the pitch was called a strike.

I just think that if we have the technology than we should use it. Take the mistakes by umps out of the equation. I am not saying for balls and strikes but the bang-bang plays they can't see.

watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70KsXOaIFAg

I am an Angels fan and it seems that year after year they get hosed in the playoffs by bad umpiring.
This year they don't have to worry about it.

I played and I enjoy the "imperfect" element that Umpires lend to the game. No one is perfect, playing the game is tough and the human element is always present. Many of the calls Umpires have to make are difficult even with replay. Don't players want Umps to get the calls right? Don't they expect them to act professional? Should an umpire expect the same from the player?

The right or wrong of cheating to affect the outcome, or merely employing a form of deception to fool an umpire, probably mirrors our individual moral fibers. Certainly, much of playing baseball historically is embedded with such actions and it's widely accepted as "part of the game." Didn't the polls reflect, regarding the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky tryst ("I did not have *** with that girl"), that America was pretty much split on that one?


I was never comfortable teaching my players the "hidden ball trick" and thus, avoided all gimmick plays. I could never look at a young player and tell him it's ok for you, as a player, or us as Coaches to do what we know is wrong in the name of winning a game. I never encouraged (or discouraged either) my College player to train and play any other way but straight up.

Now I'm not trying to get righteous here and I would advocate, in Jeter's example, of trotting on down to first base and let the Umps sort it out. I wouldn't, however, endorse rolling around on the turf trying to sell that he was hit by the pitch. I'd rather see him get back in there and take his cuts and let the game be determined as it was intended to be!

This gets better with each post---"rolling around on the turf"===where did that come from---perhaps he takes off the next game and shows up in the dugout with a cast on his arm

Big deal...he got a call. Do we cry when a foul ball hits off his foot and he doesn't get the call?It's not cheating. Is it cheating when a basketball player flops? Is it cheating when a holding penalty isn't called in football?

People REALLY overreact these days because of all the exposure. The impressive part to me was Jeter's admittance after the game. Had he lied, you could question his integrity.

I want my son to play the game like Jeter.

Prime9,

Like you, I didn't teach my kids trick plays but I taught them how to defend against them.

That was the college kid who did the rolling around bit.

I think the Rays may be able to take care of the game off part of it. I'll get my respect for Jeter back when he takes getting drilled by a Rays pitcher and admits he had it coming. I hope there's nothing more than a painful bruise but if it puts him in a cast for real then so be it. He has only himself to blame.

redbird,
That wasn't integrity. That was laughing at having put one over on the umps.

You can bet he'll complain if he hits one off his foot and doesn't get the call and so would the Yankee fans. They'll also take the one where it only looked like it hit off his foot and he got another swing. No faking involved, you try to get the right call and if you can't get it overturned you go on with the game. That's baseball. When you make a swipe tag or the safety play on a double play you take the chance the umpire isn't going to call it your way and sometimes they don't. When you turn into a pitch over the plate and get hit you take the chance the umpire is going to call it a strike even though you got hit.

It isn't cheating when a holding call isn't called in football because there's a penalty involved. You know you are taking the chance that you get a penalty called. There's no cheating involved in a lefty stepping too much toward home in trying to pick off a runner because there's a penalty involved. Now what is the penalty for faking getting hit?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
This gets better with each post---"rolling around on the turf"===where did that come from---perhaps he takes off the next game and shows up in the dugout with a cast on his arm

That's called a "tongue in cheek" remark TRhit...

Ok, he just pretended to have been hit, bent over at the waist while shaking his supposedly ball struck hand, while letting the Trainer examine it.

And I would have expected nothing less than for him to say what he said when asked "where had the ball hit." I think he's a class baseball player.

Doesn't mean I would endorse that particular performance.

I endorse it !!!!

And what's the penalty when a WR acts as if he catches a ball when he really doesn't??! If yo uguys are looking for a player to be a role model, you're looking in the wrong direction.

Those who didn't play have a problem with this. This has been going on since the beginning of baseball. A phantom tag and sell job is the same thing as what Jeter did...no big deal.

Same as in baseball if a player acts as if he caught a ball he trapped. It is up to the umpire to make the right call. If the player goes overboard with the act or actually says he caught the ball when he knows he didn't (sometimes the players don't know for certain if they've caught or trapped a ball) then that's cheating. As far as a phantom tag you make the attempt and then go on as if the tag was made and let the umpire make the call. You don't start yelling that you tagged him if you know you didn't.

It is all very dependent on how each of us see it. I'd be fine with him simply walking toward first. I'm not fine with the elaborate act. I realize there's a fine line between those two things. JMO.

TR,
As long as you also endorse his getting plunked good and solid by the Rays and the umps not noticing it all is good. Personally if I was the ump in that situation I'd suddenly realize that time had been called prior to the pitch.

Showing up the umps is not a smart thing to do. Maybe that's where the line should be drawn. ???

is an elaborate act defined as holding up the ball and running toward the dugout? Guys do this all the time.

WHY SHOULD HE GET DRILLED?!?! That is insane!

Madden said he wished his guys would be smart enough to do something like this. As a coach I wouldn't be upset at all with Jeter if he got this call against me. No more than I would a guy selling a swipe tag knowing full well he didn't make contact but still got the call. Or a guy squibbing one back to the pitcher and hopping around like he got it off the foot and then got the call. Thats baseball. Am I missing something here?

I really don't understand all the fuss over this at all. Praising Jeter for doing something that has been done for decades. And coming down on him for doing something that has been done for decades. Stuff like this has always gone on and its simply no big deal.

I may have gotten ticked at the umpire for making a call that I felt was wrong. But in no way would I be upset with the player. He is just playing the game.

To keep him from doing it again. Why do they brush back guys who crowd the plate? To keep them from getting an advantage.

Can't run if you're hopping around faking it and it looks pretty darn dumb when you get called out, especially considering pitchers are the ones most likely to make a bad throw. That one carries it's own penalty with it.

An elaborate act is a lot like obscenity. I may not be able to define it in writing but I know it when I see it as somebody famous once said. I saw it on this one. I saw it on the other clip of the college kid to an even greater degree.