Acting/Lying...Part of the game or cheating?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy

I didn't expect you to

Boy, are you ever dense. I was referring to you and your refusal to answer my question. You didn't ask me one. *Alzheimer's setting in, TR?)

You posted that Jeter's actions after the HBP was an accepted part of baseball.

That, then raises the legitimate question of "do you coach it?" which you refused to answer.

That's okay. From what I've heard from other posters, there's much you don't coach players. No need to answer.

JIMMY

Love the insult!!!

And yes alzheimers runs in the family---my dad died from it after a 20 year seige

Sorry to hear about your dad. My grandmother also passed with Alzheimers.

So, then, if something is considered acceptable strategy in baseball, is it coached?

I’m glad this topic was brought up, but I don’t see it as any type of credibility issue at all.

Some acting is coached at many levels of baseball. I could give many examples of where we coached it. That doesn't bother me a bit.

There are many things that competitors do in the interest of winning that some would describe as cheating or acting. Some of these things really are classless while others are considered just baseball. No, I don’t think anything and everything should be done to win a game.

With all the talk about the Jeter incident, though it may have happened, I haven’t heard a single complaint about that play from any player or manager in the Big Leagues. Not even those from the Rays!

I don’t see it as showing up the umpire either. The instant replay showed a mistake was made. After the game was over Jeter simply told the truth. No need to lie about it. Mistakes are made and I don’t believe many are thinking that Jeter threw the Umpire under a bus. Jeter did what he did, Maddon did what he did, the ump did what he did. And when a zillion dollar player appears to get hurt, the trainer runs out there ASAP.

Things happen that are considered OK and should be. A few years ago Jeter ran full speed and dove into the stands catching a foul ball. This play could have seriously hurt fans in the stands. No one would say that Jeter did anything wrong, just the opposite, but the potential for serious problems exist in that play.

The type of player that throws all caution to the side, he also could have been seriously injured, is the type of player who will do what it takes to win a game. This is not the same type of cheating that involved PEDs. This is all about winning a single game.

I find it odd that the majority of those who think this was some sinister act that will cost Jeter some credibility are umpires. The higher the level the more umpires see players “acting”! They’re used to it and they try to make the right call no matter what act is put on. Can’t tell you how many times we see the batted ball not touching the hitter in the foot yet he hobbles around as though it did. This happens all the time! The opposing team doesn’t get mad at the hitter who is acting (they expect it), they argue the call if they think it is wrong. They don’t even think twice that the hitter did anything wrong.

I think it’s great that umpires have their own fraternity of sorts. But in this case we are talking about a guy who is in his 16th year of Major League Baseball. He plays in the largest media market with a team that is loved by some and hated by many. He has handled it as well as any player possibly could under that scrutiny. There is no umpire who has ever faced that day to day type of media attention. When it comes to true baseball “credibility”, it is earned by your peers rather than the public. When it comes to off field credibility it is earned by those who know you and your history. Integrity is not based on opinion, you either have it or you don’t. Jeter has it! The incident involving this play doesn’t change anything.

People can argue he is over rated or he might be losing something at his age. They can argue that he is not a great shortstop by league standards. Every player is subject to that type of scrutiny. But Derek Jeter’s credibility and class is very hard to argue against.

Anyone that has a son who plays baseball… Please hope that he ends up playing the game and handling himself exactly the way Jeter does (and has) for his entire career. Your son may not have the same accomplishments on the field, but he certainly will be regarded as a great person with exceptional character and integrity. You never lose that by “acting like a ball hit you” in a baseball game.

For those who think I might be just making things up. I actually know Jeter (the person), my son roomed with him and they were and still are close friends. There are many Big League players who lack class, but Derek Jeter is a total class act. That is my main reason for posting this.

Thank you PGStaff, my feelings exactly.

PG great post! Thanks for clarifying what is considered cheating and what is not, and you are correct, not one person involved in that game complained.
For those that spoke up against Jeter, not sure they really understand these tactics used in the game, yeah he could have taken his base right away, but he has years of expereience knowing that what he did could have already made the opposing pitcher a bit uneasy. That's the object isn't it, to make the pitcher feel uncomfortable and throw him off a bit. The same way the guy not hit hobbles around like he did or the OF who tooka nose dice doesn't get up too qucikly to give his pitcher some time to gather himself up, or the guy who fixes his glove 5 times and then strokes his bat before he gets in the box. All very annoying, but part of the game.
JMO.

Baseball's history indicates, it ain't cheating if you get away with it. At least, in the game context, excluding things like steroids, throwing games/gambling, etc.

Examples:

Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame. Would he be there without his spit ball?

If an outfielder traps a ball and the umpire credits a catch, have you ever seen the OF say, "No, he's safe, I didn't catch that cleanly"? Of course not.

Ever been called safe when you knew you were out? Did you give up your position on base? I'm betting not.

Ever gotten an out call in the field when you knew the runner was safe? I'm betting you didn't go to the umpire to argue that the runner should be aboard.

It goes on and on. Fair/foul calls. Check swings. Strikes/balls.

I cannot imagine Jeter turning away from the pitch, turning back to find the umpire awarding him first base in a one-run game, and then saying, "No, it didn't hit me." That's just not how the game is played.

PG, Milo's Dad:

This umpire has not classified what Jeter did as cheating. This umpire did not expect Jeter to turn down a free base.

This umpire, however, found the ridiculous acting by Jeter AFTER the bases was awarded to be over the top and absent of any class what so ever.

Jimmy

Have you spoken with the umpire in question?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy

Have you spoken with the umpire in question?

Which umpire would that be, the one in my post or the one at the game?

The one involved in the Yankee game

Don't try to be a wiseguy--it does not befit your nice umpire image

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
The one involved in the Yankee game

Don't try to be a wiseguy--it does not befit your nice umpire image

Not trying to be anything TR, you should know better. Your question was not clear and I asked for clarification.

I have not talked directly with Lance. I spoke with one of is crewmates, but he did not speak for Lance, only for himself.

The one I'd like to talk with is Jeter.

Jimmy03--

I also thought it was interesting that so many umpires were quick to criticize Jeter on this. Umpires "sell" their closest and most doubtful calls with extra emphasis the same way ball players "sell" their doubtful catches and their barely/almost/maybe-HBP's. And I don't have problem with either one.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
Jimmy03--

I also thought it was interesting that so many umpires were quick to criticize Jeter on this. Umpires "sell" their closest and most doubtful calls with extra emphasis the same way ball players "sell" their doubtful catches and their barely/almost/maybe-HBP's. And I don't have problem with either one.

Umpires sell what the believe to be the result of a close call. Jeter sold what he knew not to be true.

Must be contagious, now we have Posada...

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
Jimmy03--

I also thought it was interesting that so many umpires were quick to criticize Jeter on this. Umpires "sell" their closest and most doubtful calls with extra emphasis the same way ball players "sell" their doubtful catches and their barely/almost/maybe-HBP's. And I don't have problem with either one.

Umpires sell what the believe to be the result of a close call. Jeter sold what he knew not to be true.

Umpires pretend they are most certain when they are least confident. They also remain resolute when their calls are challenged and when they realize they made a mistake. Applying the same standard by which folks were willing to condemn Jeter, that is dishonest. I'm not blaming them. I understand they have to maintain control of the game. I'm just saying that the umpires who applied a no-gray-area, no-situational-ethics standard to Jeter need to realize they're in the same boat if they've ever, even once, started their punch-out mechanic a little too soon, realized as they did so that the pitch was really a ball, and continued to announce the pitch as a strike. I'm saying, cut everyone some slack.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
Jimmy03--

I also thought it was interesting that so many umpires were quick to criticize Jeter on this. Umpires "sell" their closest and most doubtful calls with extra emphasis the same way ball players "sell" their doubtful catches and their barely/almost/maybe-HBP's. And I don't have problem with either one.

Umpires sell what the believe to be the result of a close call. Jeter sold what he knew not to be true.

Umpires pretend they are most certain when they are least confident. They also remain resolute when their calls are challenged and when they realize they made a mistake. Applying the same standard by which folks were willing to condemn Jeter, that is dishonest. I'm not blaming them. I understand they have to maintain control of the game. I'm just saying that the umpires who applied a no-gray-area, no-situational-ethics standard to Jeter need to realize they're in the same boat if they've ever, even once, started their punch-out mechanic a little too soon, realized as they did so that the pitch was really a ball, and continued to announce the pitch as a strike. I'm saying, cut everyone some slack.

Okay, for my honest to God final comment in this thread....you remain confused as to my point. I could not care less that Jeter took advantage of a the situation. However, his act afterwards was classless. Try to compare it to whatever you want, it was disappointing and classless.

It reminded me of the scene from Bull Durham when, after being told what the next pitch was, the batter just stood there admiring his work. Crash says "You're gonna' show up my pitcher after I gave you a gift... RUN DUMMY!!"

Jeter taking advantage of the umpire's mistake was part of the game. The act after the base award is not.

I don't work with umpires who pretend. We make mistakes, everyone does. But we call what we believe to be correct and sell the hell out of it when it's close. I have never sold a call I knew to be incorrect and I do not know an umpire who has. Selling what you know to be wrong may be part of the game for players, it is not part of the game for umpires.

Feel free to continue on. You'll get no more rebuttal from me.

Wow Swampboy what a great point and what a great analogy!

Jimmy - don't you agree that umpires routinely, even after realizing they screwed a call, will toss a coach?

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Jimmy - don't you agree that umpires routinely, even after realizing they screwed a call, will toss a coach?

It has nothing to do with whether the call was right or wrong. It has to do with the behavior of the ejectee. An umpire being incorrect does not grant license to a participant to act differently, nor should an umpire allow behavior that warrants ejection in any case.

Sorry, Jimmy, but now you're really overselling your call.

You don't work with ANY umpires who pretend? Really? Please explain how that works. Do you make your own assignments? Have you given your association a list of umpires who meet your standards of perfect integrity? Do you pre-screen your partners in the parking lot when you're changing clothes? Or do you live in a parallel universe where umpires don't need a rule reminding them to value getting the call right above their own dignity? I gotta throw the BS flag on that one.

You basically conceded the point when you admitted that you sell the hell out of close calls. Take that acknowledgment to its logical conclusion. The closer a play gets to being a true banger where you really don't know if the runner is safe or out, the harder you sell it. Eventually you reach the point where you don't know and you know you don't know, but you still make an emphatic call. That's called pretending. Being well intentioned does not change this fact, which is the only point I was trying to make when I entered the conversation to agree with your general position. Unfortunately, you turned it into a referendum on umpire integrity.

And what happens when you make a bad call and are too proud to back away from it? Why, you sell it even harder and then try to cut off discussion when you realize you're in an untenable position. That's what happened here when you made the initial doubtful distinction between umpires and Jeter. Once cornered, you doubled down and reinforced it with the ridiculous assertion that you don't ever work with any umpires who pretend. Then, as umpires do, you tried to end the debate, perhaps realizing that your claim wouldn't withstand two seconds of honest scrutiny. Of course, the "that's all, coach" tactic works better on a ball field where you can eject the coach than on a discussion board where jerks like me tend to keep coming back for more. So please don't try to tell me you never do on the field what you just did in this discussion. Just admit that umpires live on the same moral plane as the rest of us mere mortals.

As with Jeter, I don't have a problem with the umpire's initial act--it's the excessive theatrics afterwards.

Swampboy that was perhaps the most intelligently argued point I have ever read on this board.

I think you are a person I would like to know.

Great discussion & posts. News flash.....Jorge Posado was awarded first base in last nights game against Tampa Bay. The umpire missed an even easier call in this case than the Jeter call. Replay would have made this a non-issue very quickly. These umpires are being made to look foolish and incompetent, and they deserve better than that. MLB needs to give them the tools to do their job better.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Wow Swampboy what a great point and what a great analogy!

Jimmy - don't you agree that umpires routinely, even after realizing they screwed a call, will toss a coach?

If I have made a mistake and I realize it...(and I have).....If a coach comes out and to argue, I will give a coach the opportunity to get his pound of flesh....

In my Umpire training classes, I stress to my candidates not to compound an umpire error with an ejection.........YET, as has been stated, there is a limit even to that....If I have made a mistake, acknowledged it, and you have had your say........yet continue to go beyond.......or not move on........or get personal.....then an ejection can still be warrented......

I've had to do that as well.......dont like it but that happens.....

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:

You don't work with ANY umpires who pretend? Really? Please explain how that works. Do you make your own assignments? Have you given your association a list of umpires who meet your standards of perfect integrity? Do you pre-screen your partners in the parking lot when you're changing clothes? Or do you live in a parallel universe where umpires don't need a rule reminding them to value getting the call right above their own dignity? I gotta throw the BS flag on that one.
.

I dont pretend to speak for Jimmy, but I have to cut you off....Umpiring is a small fraternity and the higher you go in it, the smaller it is.....

In the associations I belong to, we all meet, go to clinics and work games with various partners....and its not long before you (rightly or wrongly) are judged on a number of criteria.....something on the lines of a pecking order....

Have I had to work a game with partners of lesser ability and sometimes lesser integrity?.......Yes I have.....but I wont ever work again with those with lesser integrity.......It may have cost me a few games back in the day, but it has opened more doors for me than it closed.....

I am fortunate to work a good amount of games with a regular partner who works the same levels that I do.....I then work with a pool of guys I am comfortable with....with their level of expertise and their ethics....

Our assignors know this dynamic exists in all my chapters...and they work with it...and the scrutiny that we undergo from leagues and coaches weeds out many such people from our ranks.....higher level Assignors have a short tolerance for problem children...

I only worked with a cheater once in my career....In a 3 man crew....we noticed the plate umpire pinching one team...and in the 3rd inning my partner and I walked in and had a "come to jesus" meeting with him....one more missed pitch and we were walking off to let him explain why he was now working solo....

What I am saying is that we all develop reputations as umpires....some good and unfortunately some bad.....and to the most part that I can, I avoid the working with the ones with bad reputations...even if it means I give up games....

Now, Jimmy has worked higher levels up the chain than I have or ever will....Im sure that the situation is somewhat similar...

piaa_ump,

Thanks, but we're not talking about cheating, which would be a willful attempt to influence the outcome of a game. We're talking about something much more common and (I think) innocent: namely, an umpire who, in order to maintain his ability to manage the game, pretends to be more certain than he is or refrains from overruling himself when he realizes he has made a mistake, and whether there is any qualitative integrity difference between this umpire and a batter who pretends to be hit by a pitch or to have made a catch or tag on a doubtful play.

I think umpires commonly engage in this sort of pretense, and I don't criticize them for it because their job is to make the call whether they are sure or in doubt, and they do need to maintain control of the game. Similarly, I also do not criticize players who momentarily "sell" their dubious catches or tags or HBP's when their actions reflect their hope rather than their judgment. I made the comparison not to degrade umpires, but to show why I don't have a problem with Jeter's initial (not his prolonged) reaction to the ball in on his hands.

Jimmy refuses to consider the analogy and denies that the umpire pretending phenomenon exists at the high levels of play he is privileged to work. He claims that he doesn't work with any umpires who pretend, which I find to be a) implausible, and b) impossible to reconcile with his acknowledgment that he will "sell the hell out of" his closest calls.

Your account of relying on reputation and experience to work with umps whom you respect is interesting and commendable--but not relevant to the narrow point we're arguing.

Looks like Chase Utley is another guy who just feels like you're just playing the game when you fake getting hit by a pitch. Since he's another guy that you hear ad nauseum plays the game "the right way", I guess it just shows that the professionals don't feel this is cheating at all.

I have no problem with the "act." If the ump thinks you got hit, then you got hit.

However, I thought that pitch obviously missed Utley and no one said a word about it last night.

Its simply not cheating. We all know its part of the game. Player is down 0-2 in a left on left situation in the freakin playoffs. His job is to get on base not win an award for being mister nice guy. The umpire thought it hit him so he got the bag. I have no idea if it hit him or not. But it did because ended up on first base.

When you put your focus on the umpires you can not put your focus on what you should be putting your focus on. The things you can control.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Its simply not cheating. We all know its part of the game. Player is down 0-2 in a left on left situation in the freakin playoffs. His job is to get on base not win an award for being mister nice guy. The umpire thought it hit him so he got the bag. I have no idea if it hit him or not. But it did because ended up on first base.

When you put your focus on the umpires you can not put your focus on what you should be putting your focus on. The things you can control.

I agree accepting the free base is not cheating. I think overacting is a bit classless, that's all.

Class has never had anything to do with baseball.

For all the lofty praise about the national pastime in reality this is a game that was built by the working class and was played for centuries by people that would normally be working in the mines, factories or fields of America. These were people that grew up dirt poor and looked at baseball as a way out. That kind of despiration drove this game in its childhood and its remnants are still there today.

It isn't cheating, well it is but it is as much a part of the game as trickery used to deceive the batter or runner. Getting on base is getting on base and the game has always rewarded individuals that come up with ways of getting on.

I think over acting makes the player look bad and turns it into a circus. Just take your base. Shake it a bit to get the call if you want to. But once you do get the call just get down to first. But I agree dont take it to a circus level.

Wklink I like that post. You are 100% correct. Hard nosed guys playing the game like they lived their life.

Its no different imo than a catcher holding a framed strike after the call is already made. You got the call let it go. Or you didnt get the call let it go. Your speaking with your actions and sometimes your speaking in a manner that is just not accepted in the game. Dont show up the umpire when you already got the call. Dont show up the umpire just because you didnt. JMO

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I think over acting makes the player look bad and turns it into a circus. Just take your base. Shake it a bit to get the call if you want to. But once you do get the call just get down to first. But I agree dont take it to a circus level.

I don't think Utley over-acted like Jeter has been accused. Chase shook his hand a little, jogged down to first, THEN he doubled over for a couple of minutes.

However, he did just have an Aroldis Chapman fast ball whiz by his face. He was probably checking to see if he had wet himself!

I wasn't talking about Utley. I think he was shook up about a 100 mph fastball almost hitting him in the face. And I dont blame him.

quote:

Originally posted by Wklink:
Class has never had anything to do with baseball.

My experience hasn't been that sad.

I think it all comes down to how one defines class in regards to the game. How about Roy the other night when he tossed that no hitter? He smiled and waved to the crowd. Then after the game he heaped all the praise he could on his catcher , team mates and coaches. Class can also be displayed in a gritty way while playing the game. Going in hard and then helping the guy up. You can play hard and get after it and at the same time display class while doing it. I in no way believe Utley displayed a lack of class the other night. He almost got his lights turned out. He was visibly shaken and had every right to be.

A classy guy is easy to pull for. Even if they dont play on your team.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I think it all comes down to how one defines class in regards to the game. How about Roy the other night when he tossed that no hitter? He smiled and waved to the crowd. Then after the game he heaped all the praise he could on his catcher , team mates and coaches. Class can also be displayed in a gritty way while playing the game. Going in hard and then helping the guy up. You can play hard and get after it and at the same time display class while doing it. I in no way believe Utley displayed a lack of class the other night. He almost got his lights turned out. He was visibly shaken and had every right to be.

A classy guy is easy to pull for. Even if they dont play on your team.

Agree on all counts. I hope no one thought I was speaking of Utley.

Truthfully what Utley did is what is exactly what a couple of my coaches told me to do when I was young. Crowd the plate, if it comes real close just take off jogging toward first. I was a speed guy , not a power hitter and I had to use any advantage I could gain. I wore a baggy uniform and on 3-0 I was right on top the plate. So I'm with Jeter and Utley all the way.

Personally, I thought Utley was grazed and deserved the base.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Wklink:
Class has never had anything to do with baseball.

My experience hasn't been that sad.

That wasn't my point. My point was that this has always been a game played by rough and tumble men trying to get away from a life of backbreaking work for little to no pay. It was a way out for those men in the early 20th century in this country and interestingly, a way for many Central American men in the 21st.

Yes, there are players that play with class, there always have been but it has never been a requirement to be a great, or even a good player. Ty Cobb is a perfect example. The 1919 White Sox are another example. Yes, there are classy players but there are classless ones too.