Acting/Lying...Part of the game or cheating?

What a great thread, and some pretty strong opinions. I have to agree with Coach May and others that feel that Jeter's cheating/acting is part of the game. However, I do believe that he went a little overboard in his acting, and the subsequent call for the trainer to come out and examine his elbow? That was funny and probably the biggest reason people are so upset over the situation, IMO. There are plenty of incidents in the game of baseball that can be construed as cheating that are simply accepted, the Jeter play was one of them. He just needs to find a new acting coach. The MLB Network's Harold Reynolds did a pretty funny skit on the incident this afternoon.

I'm a Westcoast guy, born and raised a Dodgers Fan, I love to hate the Yankees. BUT...I have to admit that when we brought home our puppy to the kids seven years ago, they decided to name him JETER. At the time, Shawn Green was my son's favorite player...the problem was that Shawn or Green wasn't a good name for a dog!

vladfan - you are doing just fine. That is what's great about this place - even when we all disagree it's still respectful. If you'll notice in this thread Coach May and Jimmy03 are on opposite ends of the extreme but if you have read the stuff they have posted over the long haul you will see this thread will never affect their mutual respect. That is the way with most people on here.

Overall we got some really good people from all walks of life and all walks of baseball. We're a true melting pot of baseball.

That being said.......nothing wrong with what Jeter did LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
In some of those instances I dont have a problem with it. Not at all. And in some of those instances I have a serious problem with it. In other words its not a black and white game. Not every situation is clear cut - black and white.

A few years back a young man hits a walk off 2 run hr in the bottom of the 7th in the state finals. The place goes crazy. The umpire's clear the field and call the hitter out for missing 1B. And from accounts of fans he did. They went on to lose in extra innings. Right call by the rule book? Yes. Right call in my book? BS call. Him touching 1B had nothing to do with the outcome of the game the players had decided it. But the umpire stepped in and made the call. You as an umpire will say the rules are the rules. Me as a coach will say BS.

The speed limit is 35. A person gets a ticket for going 36 in a 35. Is that the spirit of the written law? But hey he broke the law. There is the written law and the spirit of the law.

A catcher drops a strike on the black. Pops right out of his glove rolls on the ground under the batters feet. Called a strike. Was a strike. I have no problem with it being called a ball. Catch the ball if you want a strike. And if its called a strike fine its a strike.

This is just my opinion but everything in this game is not black and white. You calling Jeter a cheater for selling a hbp is exactly what I would expect an umpire to say. Me saying he was just trying to get on base and help his team anyway he could is exactly what most coaches and players would say. At least the ones I know.

Jimmy your going to do what you do because you believe in the way you do it no matter what I say. The same goes for me. You umpire in a black and white world. I dont coach that way. You have a rule book you enforce. I will drive as fast as I can in that 35 mph zone until I find out just how fast I can drive without getting a ticket. And so will everyone else I am playing against.

No umpire worth his salt is a black-and-white umpire, because the book isn't black-and-white. There are errors and misstatements all over it. There is a saying of umpiring with the book, not by the book. Knowing Jimmy's background, I am quite confident that he has no problem with the grey areas.

That being said, I would have an out on the HR. In fact, I have made that call. There is one person to blame and that is the runner for missing a base, even more so since there was absolutely no reason for doing so. This isn't picking up the ****ty end of the stick, it's making the proper call. If the defense appeals, it's because they have a miss, too. By not calling the out, that is a lack of integrity.

Your comment about you and everybody else doing what they can to win is true. That's why umpires exist--to ensure no one gets an advantage not intended by rule. That's why I have no problem calling a balk with the bases loaded if the pitcher gains an advantage. That's why umpires (generally) ignore the enforcement of a catcher's balk.

More to the conversation at hand, Jeter is a rat, for reasons already stated. Was the acting cheating? No, but it was useless and shows exactly how classless he is. The call was made before his acting job. And, no, I do not want him on my team. He is a defensive liability and severely overrated.

And to Fillsfan--

No umpire has ever cost a team a game at the Major League level. One call does not decide a game any more than one play decides a game. Each team gets 27 outs. That's, at a minimum, 27 opportunities to score, or to keep the other team from scoring. If a team loses because of one play, they should have done better on their multitude of other opportunities.

Ken,
HOF probably. Deserved yes. The over rated tag comes from his peers and quite often. They understand and respect his abilities and they know that he's over rated.

That's pretty much the standard response. -He's great, he can't be over rated.-

Yes he is great, yes he is over rated.

He's a terrific hitter and would still be a very good hitter on any team even without the advantages he gets being in the Yankee lineup.

He's a very consistent shortstop who makes very few errors. He has good range forward and back. He has poor lateral range. He makes the best of his abilities defensively. That isn't saying all that much. He certainly has not deserved the golden glove awards he's gotten and that alone makes him over rated.

The Yankees can afford to have a shortstop with poor lateral range because they score a lot of runs and he doesn't hurt them with errors. Most teams could not afford to have him at shortstop and would have to find another way to get his bat in the lineup.

He does bring intangibles to the table. This incident is a positive example of that whether I like it or not. I think 99% of baseball players would like what he did.

Has he earned a spot in the HOF? Yes. Is he over rated? Yes.

Coach May,
I was going to ask how you could say that you respect umpires considering the tone of the posts you've put in this thread. Then I noticed that you said that most coaches respect the umpires. You never said that you did.

I respect the hel out of umpires and the job they do. And I have said that many times on this site. And I stated in this thread that based on the posts I have read that Jimmy has posted I bet he is a great umpire.

As far as the tone of my post I was simply trying to make a point but I must not have done a very good job of it. I have coached for over 25 years and I have been tossed twice. Both times I asked for it and they delivered.

I simply disagree that this was cheating. I was simply trying to make the point that players are going to do what they have to do to help their team win. Acting like you got hit IMO is not cheating. Its simply part of the game and I expect has been for a long time. Did Jeter over sell it? I don't think there is any question about that. Is Jeter a cheater for acting like he got hit? Not in my opinion.

Others are free to have a differing opinion. I respect that as well.

Here we go with the insults again. My dog, may she rest in peace, was named Shanna. What isn't good enough about that name?

Coach, I do not umpire in a black and white world. There are more things that can happen in a game than there are rule for. That said, however, it is my primary job to see that neither team obatains an advantage not intended by rule.

Ignoring the missed base on a walk off homer, if appealed properly by the defense, would be giving such an advantage to the team that violated the rule. I would not do that.

I come to this discussion from three backgrounds. First as a former player who had a coach who insisted on integrity. Old fashioned, I guess, but then that was over 30 years ago. He did not believe in "win at any cost."

Next, I am an umpire to whom integrity is everything. Admittedly, it confuses me that coaches and players can demand total honesty and integrity from me while encouraging one another to cheat.

Lastly, I am a teacher entrusted with youth. I am curious as to how anyone can teach and encourage kids to lie and cheat and that winning at any cost is a desirable character trait. That truly bothers me. I also wonder at what stage in development this takes place...that is, when is it okay to teach kids to lie and cheat? 19U? 16U? 12U 9U? 7U?

Despite my confusion and my disagreement with your position, I remain respectful of your history here at this site, and as I have said before, my opposition does not come out of naivete. I understand that cheating is done. I know that many pros truly believe that "it isn't cheating if you don't get caught." But common practice doesn't make something right.

Here's a question for anyone who has a student at one of the military academies. I have been told by a graduate of West Point that the honor code applies to their activities in sports. Can anyone tell me if that's true?

Coach May,
I think we agree more than we disagree. It is the overselling it part that I don't like. I would have been fine with just taking his base or even a bit of a grimace and then take the base. I think when you go out of your way to try and fool an umpire it is cheating. I don't know where the line is. There are a lot of similar things such as those redbird has brought up that I think are part of the game and I really can't say why they are different. Eventually I just go back to my morals and look at one incident and say that is part of the game and another and say that is cheating. I guess that the answer is that some cheating is part of the game and some isn't. The phantom tag, etc. are cheating but they are part of the game and so we accept them and challenge the umpires to make the right call. I just don't think that the oversell was part of the game.

How did steroids get into this discussion? I brought them up because people were saying that a player has the right to do whatever it takes to win. That isn't true. We know that the players took the steroids because they helped them win and because "everyone" else did it. It was accepted. Those are the same arguments that are being used to justify Jeter's actions. The problem is that once you condone one level of cheating it is easy to slide over to the next level and then the next and that is how baseball got into the steroid era.

What is wrong with playing the game straight and accepting that the umpires will get some calls wrong and that they'll even out? Framing a pitch properly will just give an umpire a better look at a borderline pitch. Pulling a pitch into the strike zone just tells the umpire that the catcher thought it was a ball. The safety play is there for a reason and the umpires will make a safe call if they abuse it. If you know you trapped a ball continue the play. If the umpire calls it a catch then on to the next play or into the dugout. Usually all these attempts to fool the umpires do is get the umpire annoyed. That isn't smart.

We don't need cheating in baseball any more than real fans need beach balls or the wave. The game is interesting enough without it.

quote:

Originally posted by vladfan:

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
By the way do you think the reason Jeter and ARod got the most Boos has something to do with the fact they play in NY? Could it be that they get booed because they are Yankees? Now why would so many fans of other teams boo a Yankee? Could it be because they win so much? Or could it be all the media attention that they get for playing in NY?

Those same clowns booing them would be wearing their jerseys at the same game if they played on their team. Now tell me thats not the truth?

I do think that the majority boo them because they are from NY. Most baseball fans on the west coast get tired of the east coast biased we see and hear on TV. The Angels have owned the Yankees in the playoffs until last year and the Yankeees would still get all the hype.

Do I think Jeter is a good player......yes. Do I think A-Fraud is a good player ........yes. I even like Cano alot but he is still on the Yankees. Come to Anaheim someday when the Yanks or the Red Sox are playing. The people that come and cheer for the Sox or the Yanks are some of the most obnoxious fans ever and make going to a game unbearable. I wouldn't even take my son to those games for several years until he was old enough to handle it.

Look......I am new to the board and I am not trying to get into a flame war with anyone. I just thought I would try to contribute. I have a son thats a 2013 and I find very good info here. I did play when I was young but I am quickly realizing how serious it is when your kid gets to a high level of play. Again......I hope I can contribute now and then.

vladfan,
I've been at the Big A for some of those games versus the Yankees and Redsox. A few years ago a drunk obnoxious Yankee fan sitting behind me and my kids spilled a full beer on us after he slipped switching seats. It's not just New York and Boston fans, IMO the Philadelphia fans are much worse than those in the Big Apple and Beantown. I was at a Dodgers/Phillies game a couple weeks ago and watched security kick out at least fifteen Philly Fans, and that was just in our surrounding sections! Don't get me wrong though, I love the devotion that Fans on the East Coast have for their teams, they're full of Sports Nuts like me! Here in Calif we're surrounded by people/fans that have moved in from other areas and have generally kept their alliance with their teams. Our state is the ultimate melting pot, which isn't always the best thing for our local sports teams. Case in point, I have season tickets for the Chargers. They've won the AFC West five years straight, yet this Sunday's game is blacked out by the NFL in the San Diego and LA markets due to a shortage of ticket sales. Yes, I realize we're still in a recession, but I don't see this happening in other Major Sports Cities...the Chargers are the Only professional football team in So Cal.

As for Jeter, Love him or Hate him, you'd love to have him on your team. He even admitted that he wasn't hit...he was just trying to help his team! Cheating? Bush? Who Knows? But we can't argue one thing...he's a winner.

It all comes down to your definition of cheating. Your definition of cheating is black and white. Mine is not.

Bottom of the 9th down a run bases loaded 0-2 count 2 outs. Pitch thrown inside hits something umpire says take your bag. Your saying the player should say "No Ump it didn't hit me." If not your encouraging cheating by your own definition of cheating.

I am saying it is not the players job to get it right. It is your job. And if a player can sell something to the umpire to help his team that is part of the game. If he can frame that pitch and make it look like a strike , swipe a tag and get a call , that is simply part of the game.

Look I have said all I need to say. I will move on this time I promise.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Bottom of the 9th down a run bases loaded 0-2 count 2 outs. Pitch thrown inside hits something umpire says take your bag. Your saying the player should say "No Ump it didn't hit me." If not your encouraging cheating by your own definition of cheating.

No one has said anything remotely resembling this.

Jimmy;

Obviously from my comments I agree with you. F.Y.I., the Honor Code applies to all aspects of Military life, as it should.

Back to the topic as stated; acting, lying, playing the game or cheating? If you are good enough do you neat to act, lie or cheat?

The game can be played and has been played by many a good pro without those antics; Stan, the man, Musial comes to mind. He would have never lowered himself, I'm guessing, to such theatrics. But again, you only need read about him to see what kind of person he was and we all know what kind of baseball player he was. What type player would you have your son, or players emulate?

I'm not sure why the term "Bush League" doesn't apply to just about any circumstance mentioned here. And yea, I think if the ump asked, "did that ball hit you?" , I would expect an honest answer. Umps don't ask, I wouldn't suggest volunteering to call it for him. That is his job.

Great, fun topic mirroring life... do you act differently when no one is looking?

Jimmy; when you umpire do you call the strike zone from letters to knees and the width of the plate? If not; are you cheating?

quote:

Originally posted by fsmjunior:
Jimmy; when you umpire do you call the strike zone from letters to knees and the width of the plate? If not; are you cheating?

That's not the defined strike zone.

Interesting to read this thread. At the risk of sounding like an outlaw here is what I think.

If all players were completely honest there would be no need for umpires. The players could simply call the game. Of course, we know that would never work.

There is the type of cheating that is truly cheating and there is what some might call cheating that has been part of the game forever without being labeled as cheating.

Fooling the opposition or umpire (in this case) happens so often it has to be considered part of the game. Is the basketball player who flops (acting) to draw a foul cheating? Is the lineman that holds and gets away with it cheating? When a runner is stealing 2B and a middle infielder acts like a flyball is a groundball, is that middle infielder cheating or is this just good baseball?

“Winning at all cost” is not the right description for everything including the Jeter play. But winning within the rules and within the law goes on in most every sporting event. Of course, that includes taking advantage of every situation. What some call cheating others might call intelligence. Yes, some cross the line and it’s great that we have umpires. We will always need umpires!

If we are looking for those who would never fake anything, or try to fool umpires or the opposition in the interest of winning… We would have to replace nearly every player in the Major Leagues and probably every manager too. Maybe we could sign all the Boy Scouts to play and hire their leaders to manage the teams. BTW, Nothing against Boy Scouts, I truly admire the Boy Scouts and their leaders!

I think we have to understand that there truly is integrity and it should be considered a great important trait. I’m not so sure that everything that happens in a baseball game should determine a person’s integrity.

I will say this… Most players that would not take advantage of situations or feel the need to be completely honest and truthful to the umpire… Will not ever get to that level because they will flunk all the makeup tests. People sometimes don’t understand what is considered “Championship” makeup isn’t necessarily all choirboy stuff. The game is not lily white. If “Baseball Makeup” were in the dictionary, you might see Jeter’s picture!

No matter what anyone thinks about Jeter as a player, to question his integrity, character, or class, just doesn’t make any sense. This is a player that we should want young kids to look up to and emulate. It won’t ruin our youth if they all start acting like they got hit by a pitch that was thrown inside the batters box. It would be a great world if all kids turned out like Derek Jeter, either on or off the field.

I respect “good” umpires and understand how difficult some calls can be. Some might think an umpire does not win or lose a game. That may or may not be true, but there is no question that an umpires call can change a game enough to change the winner. This has happened many many times.

I’m actually in favor of some form of replay. This only makes sense for MLB due to the amount of replay production at those games. I would think most umpires would want it also. I like it in football, tennis, etc. It doesn’t replace officials, it just helps them get it correct.

Though I’m not in favor of using anything to call balls and strikes, it is the plate umpire that actually can change a game more than anyone. And it can be done without most people even noticing it. I like the idea of every pitch, every play being reviewed, not during the game, but to evaluate umpires. Players often become more or less valuable based on their statistics. Maybe statistics for umpires would work the same way.

Ok so overall this thread has been about whether Jeter cheated or not. We obviously have extreme opinions on this. So I ask this from our umpire experts

Which rule in the book did he break by taking his base?

Which rule in the book did he break by selling his HBP?

Which rule in the book did he break by overselling his HBP?

Until he breaks a rule he's not cheating in accordance with the rulebook.

Also, I hate umpire bashing because it's a tough job and overall I will defend them no matter what. I try to teach what Matt13 said about how a call doesn't beat you no matter what point of the game it comes in. But Matt13 also has a quote that sums up a lot in my opinion.

quote:

There is one person to blame and that is the runner for missing a base, even more so since there was absolutely no reason for doing so.

You blame the runner for missing the base as justification for calling him out. I have no problem with that and if it ever happens to my team I'm going to accept it. But look at the Jeter situation - there is one person to blame and that is the umpire for not seeing the ball hit the bat. If he's doing his job Jeter can act all he wants because it won't change a thing. You want to stop all the theatrics in baseball - get that call right (without replay) and Jeter looks like a fool.

You can't criticize Jeter for cheating / breaking the rules when (to the best of my knowledge) there isn't a rule in the rulebook about taking advantage of a blown call or overselling the call. You can believe what you want about his class / character because that is a judgement each individual has to make but it doesn't make you right. Each person has their own definition of what's right and wrong but you can't push your set of values onto others.

quote:

Jimmy03 posted

Lastly, I am a teacher entrusted with youth. I am curious as to how anyone can teach and encourage kids to lie and cheat and that winning at any cost is a desirable character trait. That truly bothers me. I also wonder at what stage in development this takes place...that is, when is it okay to teach kids to lie and cheat? 19U? 16U? 12U 9U? 7U?

Jimmy since I have the same job I respect you because I know how tough our job is. I will do my best, as you do, to teach right from wrong but just because we don't see eye to eye as to EXACTLY what that means doesn't mean myself or others who don't see a problem are wrong in this case.

This is baseball we're talking about - a game we all enjoy and love. It does mirror life but in the actual playing it's just a game. This isn't the same as cheating on your taxes or cheating on your spouse. Anybody who wants to equate Jeter selling this call to those examples needs a reality check.

I'm going to try to teach right from wrong to the best of my ability but baseball won't be the tool I'm going to use. I'm going to use the don't cheat on taxes / spouse angle because in the grand scheme of things that are right and wrong - those far outweigh selling a HBP.

This is a great thread.

As to Jeter's act, it's a fantastic performance because its only goal is to reach base to try and help his team win. That's the only thing that mattered to him. Great baseball.

As to replay, unless you use replay for everything in baseball, it should not be used at all. Here's an attempt at explaining my position.

Home team up, down a run, two outs, runner on first. Batter has a 1-2 count. Pitcher throws a pitch that is in the strike zone. Umpire misses the pitch and calls it a ball. If ump got it right, game over, visitors win. On 2-2, the batter send one over the fence for a game-winning homer. That missed pitch by the ump changed the outcome of the game because if his call was correct there never would have been a 2-2 pitch.

Baseball is a game played and officiated by humans. It should be left that way. Baseball's statistics are what we measure careers on to determine greatness. The environment should remain the same if we are to compare, apples-to-apples, the players of today against those of decades ago.

Should baseball go into its archives to see if Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth ever hit a home run that actually was a foot or so foul? Of course not. Any home runs hit were ruled fair by an umpire and stand among their 755 and 714, respectively. By holding today's players to a different standard because of advancements in technology, it takes away the ability to evaluate players on a level field of comparison.

Replay should only come into play on Sportscenter IMHO.

The way I look at replay...

As a fan, I would never want replay. All the controversy and interest is great stuff to talk about. Fans love the arguments.

As a player, I might want replay but wouldn't spend any time thinking about it either way.

As a coach or manager, I personally would want replay in some fashion. Maybe one or two challenges a game. I would be against replay being used for everything.

As an umpire, I would definitely want replay.

If I worked for the commisioner, I would realize that the fans are the most important group.

Jerry your previous post was exactly what I was trying to say your just way smarter than I am.

If you want the call right, ask to see where it hit him. A 90 mph FB would leave a mark. No mark...no HBP. When Maddon came out, he should be allowed to ask to see the mark.

Selling the play is taught early on...
...you foul one off your foot, don't rely on the umpire to get it right (none of them have good angles), act like you got shot in the foot.
...on a tag play, act as if you tagged him. Show the ball and start to run off the field.

What Jeter did is no worse than a basketball player flopping or a basketball player telling the ref the ball was last touched by the opposing team or the 1B coach signaling safe on a bang bang play.

PG,

I agree about the fans.

Players might want replay until the first time it worked against them and cost them a hit.

Coaches and managers would love it when the calls change in their direction and hate it when the reverse occurs. if, as they say, calls even out, why have replay in the first place?

Where do you start and stop replay for umpires? Fair/foul, home run/not a home run, and/or the ultimate test for umpires, balls and strikes. I think replay is a slippery slope to jump on and can't imagine umpires welcoming this intense type of scrutiny.

Why can't we just leave the game as it is?

It is great the way it is

This is a fantastic thread that has made me change some of my views about 235 times now...and counting.

I still think there is a very good case to be made as a compromise on the replay issue. Exception: No balls and strikes. Almost everyone agrees balls and strikes shouldn't be part of the replay equation, just as you can't argue them now.

Give each coach one or two game challenges a piece. This still allows for all the aspects that both sides of this discussion have mentioned. Still gives the opposing teams the ability to use deception but at the same time, it gives an opposing manager a chance to call them on it.

It also makes the manager decide WHEN the best time to use that challenge may be. Use it too early and you may not get the chance to use it later. Don't use it on an early play and it can still end up costing the game.

Seems like a reasonable, middle of the road compromise that wouldn't really make either side completely happy which usually means it's pretty fair. Gives each team the chance to right a perceived wrong without completely taking out the human element from the game. Just my two cents worth...

Personally, I think it's going to take something far more dramatic that what Jeter did to institute replay beyond HR reviews. Say, they Yankee's missing the playoffs due to human error on a big call late in a game.

Just heard on ESPN that they took some kind of survey of Major League managers. Of the 20 that voted 18 were in favor of replay.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Jerry your previous post was exactly what I was trying to say your just way smarter than I am.

Yup, agree with that. Thats about how I feel too.

I've waited a long time to post on this topic and taken a great deal of time to think out how I feel about it....

Do I have any issue with what Jeter did??...only the stuff after the UIC awarded him the HBP bothers me.......

I have one shot at making the call.......at game speed.....I have to use all my experience and training combined with what I see and what I hear to make that HBP call....Once made....its made....

All the video available in the world doesnt change it to me........the video of the Jeter HBP doesnt make me blame the umpire at all.......I know what he had to do in that split second....it only exposes Jeter to the fullest extent of his deception...

Now, to that end, I am a small time HS, small college umpire.......Instant replay will never enter into my arena........as to MLB, I am only for instant replay in dead ball situations....

The game is wonderful as it is..........lets leave it that way...

Piaa_ump,
I agree that it was a very hard call to make by the umpire.

I also agree that the game is great the way it is.

However, the same thing could have been said throughout history. The game has always been great, but it has changed a lot during my lifetime. It will continue to change long after I’m gone. So I can't agree with the leave it alone theory.

Had everyone left baseball alone, we would not have African Americans or Latins playing in the Major Leagues. The equipment and training would not be as advanced, they probably wouldn’t have discovered TJ surgery. There would be less games televised. There would be less media attention. There would be very little travel ball. The lighting wouldn’t be as good. The PA systems wouldn’t be as good, the statistical data wouldn’t be as complete. No jumbotron that shows replays. And I’m sure everyone can come up with many other things that have changed baseball over the years.

Not saying these are all good things, just that baseball has changed and will continue to change. Everything in our life changes. Nothing is the same. Life was wonderful before cell phones, computers, GPS, etc., but technology has changed the way we live!

Nothing is so perfect that it can’t be improved. Baseball’s exactly the same game with video replay of foul or fair and homerun or not. Yet we are seeing some calls being reversed (corrected). Baseball is the same great game with that addition. In fact, some might argue it's even better and adds even more interest because of that change. I think fans really glue in and watch instant replay reviews closely. I know I do when watching a football game. The questioning of the call and review become very interesting and often go to prove the officials made a great call.

Every time the replay discussion comes up I think of Don Denkinger. He was a great umpire who missed a call in the World Series years ago. He was actually getting death threats for making that wrong call. He and his family suffered for years. None of this would have happened had they had replay to correct the call. We just would have had a different World Series Champion that year.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
Jerry your previous post was exactly what I was trying to say your just way smarter than I am.


Yup, agree with that. Thats about how I feel too.

That's a good one! Both you guys are way above me when it comes to brains. It's already been proven!

Like you Pia, I just wish Derek would have just jogged down to first after he got the call....

one other point: HD has changed things. Do you guys ever flip over onto a game with HD and then without? Man it is night and day for clarity.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Just heard on ESPN that they took some kind of survey of Major League managers. Of the 20 that voted 18 were in favor of replay.

This is because managers just want the correct call made whether for or against because they will eventually even out.

Personally as a fan I want the same thing. I'd rather have my team win or lose on the correct call than debate all the controversy of a incorrect call.

If they're going to even out anyway, what's the need for replay?

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Here we go with the insults again. My dog, may she rest in peace, was named Shanna. What isn't good enough about that name?

LOL...Nothing wrong with that name at all CADad, may she rest in peace!

Baseballdad1228,

I understand your point, except.....

Not sure I buy into that theory about the calls all even out.

St Louis was up on Kansas City three games to two in the 1985 World Series. In game 6 the Cardinals were leading 1-0 in the 9th inning. The champagne was on ice in the Cardinals clubhouse!

That was when Don Denkinger made the call. He called a Kansas City base runner safe at 1B, the TV replays showed that the runner was clearly out by a long ways. That runner scored along with another to give KC a 2-1 win. Then Kansas City came back and won game 7 and the World Championship.

My question... What would it take to even out that call?

What would it take to even out that call this year that cost Galarraga a perfect game?

I do believe that breaks even out to an extent, but sometimes a call is made that will never even out.

I think a replay would show Galaraga bobbled the ball at first and it would be inconclusive.... no change would have been made. If you see the right angle the ball was juggled a little..... my point being replay can be a pain in the neck when you are 90% sure of a call; do you reverse? your 90 might be my 50... but where do you draw the line???

Draw the line at 100%. Absolute conclusive or go with the original call.

Actually I think that replay would have been considered conclusive. I think Joyce thought it was, too.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Coach May,
I think we agree more than we disagree. It is the overselling it part that I don't like. I would have been fine with just taking his base or even a bit of a grimace and then take the base. I think when you go out of your way to try and fool an umpire it is cheating. I don't know where the line is. There are a lot of similar things such as those redbird has brought up that I think are part of the game and I really can't say why they are different. Eventually I just go back to my morals and look at one incident and say that is part of the game and another and say that is cheating. I guess that the answer is that some cheating is part of the game and some isn't. The phantom tag, etc. are cheating but they are part of the game and so we accept them and challenge the umpires to make the right call. I just don't think that the oversell was part of the game.

I agree CAdad - no problem with the play if he can get the call but the embellishment was tacky . jumping around after the call, trainer exam while wincing in "pain" They did everything but bring out a stretcher!

quote:

Originally posted by K Complex:

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Coach May,
I think we agree more than we disagree. It is the overselling it part that I don't like. I would have been fine with just taking his base or even a bit of a grimace and then take the base. I think when you go out of your way to try and fool an umpire it is cheating. I don't know where the line is. There are a lot of similar things such as those redbird has brought up that I think are part of the game and I really can't say why they are different. Eventually I just go back to my morals and look at one incident and say that is part of the game and another and say that is cheating. I guess that the answer is that some cheating is part of the game and some isn't. The phantom tag, etc. are cheating but they are part of the game and so we accept them and challenge the umpires to make the right call. I just don't think that the oversell was part of the game.

I agree CAdad - no problem with the play if he can get the call but the embellishment was tacky . jumping around after the call, trainer exam while wincing in "pain" They did everything but bring out a stretcher!

Ahh spoken like a true Met fan.

quote:

Originally posted by fsmjunior:
Jimmy; when you umpire do you call the strike zone from letters to knees and the width of the plate? If not; are you cheating?

Get back to me when you learn the strike zone.