Are keyboards creating high-school coach killers?

I don’t know anything about these coaches nor the coach on the previous thread. 

IMHO and based on experience with two college players...there’s multiple sides to many of these stories.

1) Parents are way too involved and wear their children like medallions. My Dad and Mom were too busy working at the Ford plant and trying to put food on the table but that was 35 years ago.  We like to post “our” accomplishments on this site and Facebook and Instagram...I think my guys would be mortified but that hasn’t stopped me.

2) We look at the winning coaches getting fired (as in these two recent threads) and we question the parents. I always question the parents, myself included, winning or losing.  We (me) are too invested in our kids’ lives.

3) And I see winning coaches and losing coaches that can be good or bad or sometimes both...they’re human. As RJM stated on a previous thread, some are screamers. My youngest college guy has one now. That isn’t coaching whether he wins or loses. That’s just screaming.  And he’s losing but that’s for the AD to noodle.

4) It was noted on the other thread that starters parents don’t complain. No kidding. They don’t want junior to lose his spot.  They (we) aren’t more virtuous or truly supporting the coach.  We don’t want our boat rocked.  

5) Really good coaches understand the enormous impact that they can have on a young person’s life and they treat that with incredible respect.  It isn’t about winning in this context IMO.  It’s about positively impacting someone’s life.  I want to (and I hope I have the clarity to) always support this type of coach.

Times are changing.  There are a lot of really mediocre high school coaches & programs out there, and kids nowadays have options that they didn't have even 10-15 years ago in most parts of the country.

Some of the coaches are unfairly fired, yes, but sometimes change is for the best.  And yes, parents can get way too involved.

Increasingly, players in some parts of the country (especially in the frozen tundra of Wisconsin, Minnesota, & Illinois) are choosing to not play for their high schools and instead only doing training & travel ball & playing in indoor spring leagues.  This is forcing high school coaches to put together a higher quality program or step aside.

I understand traditionalists will go on and on waxing nostalgic about the wonderful merits of high school Baseball.  But not all high school programs are a quality experience.  And as I said, times are changing.  When you look at a "season" here in the north being about 4 weeks due to weather related issues anyways, I can certainly understand the temptation to skip high school ball, especially if the program is mediocre.

Interesting topic.  Yes, parents are a problem.  Yes, some coaches are terrible.  Yes, some good coaches get fired due to parents overstepping.  That sucks! 

But, in general scrutiny is good.  In business and in coaching.  We have a high school varsity coach who is not good.  He runs a poor program.  Very old school guy who does not really know anything about modern baseball.  Two years ago he seriously hurt a pitchers arm having him throw 250 pitches in 4 days before the pitch count rules came in. 

Other coaches in the program complain about him regularly.  But he is a teacher at the school and has been the coach for 25+ years.  He could use some scrutiny, but my kid is in the program so I would never get involved, but I hope others will.  

Branson Baseball posted:

 

4) It was noted on the other thread that starters parents don’t complain. No kidding. They don’t want junior to lose his spot.  They (we) aren’t more virtuous or truly supporting the coach.  We don’t want our boat rocked.   

Of course starters parents complain — often about the parents of the second team or JV team players and how resentful they are of your kids success, the comments they make during games, etc.

As much as we all talk about team first, it's a very hard philosophy to actually act on and most of us don't do it very well, no matter where our kid falls in the team.

RJM posted:

“Would people say the things that people say to their face versus a keyboard? I don’t think the outcome would be the same,”

This is spot on. Although there are outliers who would speak in the same manner to someone's face, by and large this applies not only to this situation but across the board these days. I work in technology myself and am not really a "get off my lawn!" guy when it comes to that, but the anonymity and remoteness of the Internet and social media, in a lot of ways, has enabled abusive behavior of folks people barely–or don't at all–know that would likely otherwise not happen. This forum is really good about this but I daresay I see things even here that would fall into this category from time to time.

Branson Baseball posted:

 

4) It was noted on the other thread that starters parents don’t complain. No kidding. They don’t want junior to lose his spot.  They (we) aren’t more virtuous or truly supporting the coach.  We don’t want our boat rocked.   

On this comment, I would say that I agree more with Iowamom. My kid is a starter and he works very hard to stay that way. In our situation, the parents of starters are typically the ones who also do all the work. Maybe that's out of obligation or enthusiasm but mostly I think not. There are just some people who help more in general than others. Our program gets $1500/yr from the school district, which probably doesn't even cover baseballs, so we (the booster club & coaches) are left to raise all the funds and do all the maintenance for our facilities and program. It ends up being the old 80/20 rule where 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people. I'd like to think that the folks with kids who do not have regular starters would step up if that changed but I know that's not how it would be after watching this for the last three years. There are exceptions on both sides of course but this is our particular situation and I would venture to guess that it is not too uncommon. Bottom line is that I have no fear at all about complaining with my son being a starter but I don't typically feel the need because I see the work that goes into our program and it doesn't involve just showing up to practice and play baseball (or find a spot in the stands to sit and watch your kid play–or not).

A few years ago, we had an email circulate about our then Head coach.  I can say reading the complaint, everyone was right and everyone was wrong.  Meaning, did the coach do some questionable things?  Yep.  Should their kid have played more?  Probably.  Did their kid play? Yep.  Was it just about the right amount?  Probably.  These situations are rarely "black and white."  There is usually a lot of grey area.  

Coaches are not above criticism, but playing time would not be my main focus as a parent. I am hyper aware, as a coach(and Dad) myself, how impossible it is for a parent to accurately judge their own child's talent.

As one VERY experienced coach in my district tells his parents at the start of every year, " My door is always open if you want to talk about your son's schooling, or other problems he is having. Just don't talk to me about hockey." 

He is a great guy, and most players and parents respect him, but  there are occasional malcontents. They usually end up gone, one way or another, no matter how talented they are.

A fairly well-known coach told me (actually spoke to an audience of parents of younger - not high school- kids). He said something along these lines: "Moms, you know I love you, love your passion and I know how well you have raised your boys, but please do not talk to me about baseball and your son's abilities. Do not take this the wrong way, but in my experience there is a large discrepancy in the way moms are able to assess their boy's talents and the way the father's do. The dads are much more realistic about their son's abilities. I can talk to the dads and they mostly get it (though don't always like to hear it), but the moms not so much. They take it very personal as the boy is their little baby and their pride and joy...."

I've actually found the Dad's to be just as delusional, myself. And they are usually the ones who have never played. My wife is funny. Shows up about twice a year, cheers in the wrong places, then goes home. Not a lot of angst, there.

They are called Internet muscles.  People can hide behind a screen name and say things they would not say to someone's face.  We see it here on these forums.  Please don't say things electronically you would not have the courage (or decency) to say to someone's face.  The Golden Rule is a good one to live by. 

57Special, that's typically been my experience as well (moms having a supportive role), but then the coach speaking had a far different perspective than most of us. He ran a nationally known baseball organization that put hundreds, maybe thousands of kids into colleges and pro ranks. Year in and year out, many parents (moms and dads) had to be told that their son was not good enough to be on the elite travel team, was not good enough to start, did not have the hitting skills to be a 3-hole hitter... etc.  Just thought his remark was interesting. Certainly does not speak to all baseball moms at all.

I'm quite shocked at how parents have handled some of my decisions that we're based on the health and safety of my players, and academic importance.  One player complained of having the flu while we were on the bus. I told him I will not put him on the lineup sheet for his own health.  I ran into his mom and we talked about that.  He had told her he played 2 innings but I told her the truth.  She went quiet, exited the conversation and ended up making an excuse to sit on the other side of the hall.  

Last week 2 players missed a game due to having to take the SATs.  Our bus was scheduled to leave in the middle of it.  One of them, his mom was furious because we didn't wait for her son.  I called her to apologize and in the middle of explaining that I felt the SATs were more important than baseball, she snapped and hung up on me.  

Now I have more appreciation for two fathers who have kept their sons out of baseball this year due to academic and behavioral reasons.  They will be welcomed back whenever they get clearance from their parents.  

57special posted:

Coaches are not above criticism, but playing time would not be my main focus as a parent. I am hyper aware, as a coach(and Dad) myself, how impossible it is for a parent to accurately judge their own child's talent.

As one VERY experienced coach in my district tells his parents at the start of every year, " My door is always open if you want to talk about your son's schooling, or other problems he is having. Just don't talk to me about hockey." 

He is a great guy, and most players and parents respect him, but  there are occasional malcontents. They usually end up gone, one way or another, no matter how talented they are.

The use of the internet has had many negative effects as is pointed out here, but positive as well.  When used by a parent to push a personal agenda (e.g. this coach is screwing my kid) that is bad, but the use of social media and town message boards can be a driver to address actual coaching issues.  Issues that were / are harder to deal with unless you have a easy access to reach many people.  Prior to tools like these a parent or group of parents could maybe speak to an athletic director about a problem coach but it was quite difficult to illustrate the issue is felt by many or widespread. Or can be more easily dismissed.  

With town Facebook pages and message boards school management can see first hand many people discussing in a free dialog and gain a broader understanding.  Easy to get information communicated and it is up to athletic directors and schools to weed out the disgruntled parents with personal agendas from actual constructive criticism.  

Many coaches are great, many coaches are fine, some are bad.  If these tools help weed those out...all the better.  

Yes coaches should be scrutinized but that's not a parents job and never will be.  Yes you have your opinion and you have your background in baseball.  Could be you are very knowledgeable or could be you're clueless - doesn't matter because it's very difficult to be objective when you have a kid on the team.  For every objective parent out there who can correctly assess how a coach is doing there's MANY who cannot.  Plus, I don't work for you - you don't hire me or fire me (well you shouldn't). I work for the principal and the school system and as long as they are happy then the coach should stay.  If they are weak and give in to parents then you are actually doing the coach a favor because who wants to stay in that situation?

Don't get me wrong - parents are vital to a successful program but they have their role.  That role just doesn't happen to involve evaluating coaches to retain or remove from a job. 

I am not sure I could disagree with you more.  The parents are really the only ones who care enough to provide feedback and have a voice that can be heard.  Sure the students can have a voice, but the school has the right to discipline and ignore them.

Parents are the only ones who are actually watching the games. They care the most.  Who would provide constructive feedback other than parents?   The principal has all of the education and all sports programs to manage, too much to be actively involved.  Parents are the ones who are there. The only people actually available to view the product and provide informed opinion (and many parents uninformed opinions).  It is the job of the school and principal to weed out the uniformed opinion, take in all information and make decisions.  

Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  Literally everything a school needs to actually be a school.  Students and money.

When my kids were playing sports I focused on them working very hard to become as good as they could be. I wanted them to put all their efforts into learning how to be as good as they could be. I wanted them to learn team work, a great work ethic, the value of playing sports, etc. I understood there were things that would be outside of their control. I never wasted any time on those things. I understood there would be times that they might have coaches who were not the best. No big deal that was outside of our control. I figured if they were good enough it wouldn't matter anyway. I figured if I assisted them and supported them and held them accountable that was all I needed to worry about. 

Along the way my son's had some great coaches, good coaches, average coaches and bad coaches. No big deal not under my control. No big deal all part of the process. No big deal it's all part of the process. You see the parents that worried about the things outside of their control lost time taking care of the things they could control. And the players took on the attitude of the parents. The ones that had parents who used the coaches as an excuse had kids that used the coaches as an excuse. The ones that just focused on what they could control had parents that encouraged that as well.

Parents who see the athletic experience as ALL about their kid can't understand why everyone else doesn't either. Players who have been taught its all about them can't understand or grasp the team concept of sports. Its all about them. As long as their kid is playing and doing what they want him to do everything is great. As soon as that's not the case everything is wrong. But that's not the worst part. This attitude moves on to life. So don't be surprised to find that attitude permeating their adult life when the games are over. So don't complain about that selfish adult who's life is all about them down the road. You built it , your going to have to live with it. 

When they get that job and constantly complain about the boss it's ok they got it honest. When they constantly complain about their wife it's ok they got it honest. When they constantly complain about being a victim in life it's ok they got it honest. When nothing seems to be within their control but controlled by unfair outside forces it's ok they got it honest. When it's always about them it's ok they got it honest. When you have given them the crutches don't get upset when they constantly need them. It's ok they got it honest. 

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

I am not sure I could disagree with you more.  The parents are really the only ones who care enough to provide feedback and have a voice that can be heard.  Sure the students can have a voice, but the school has the right to discipline and ignore them.

Parents are the only ones who are actually watching the games. They care the most.  Who would provide constructive feedback other than parents?   The principal has all of the education and all sports programs to manage, too much to be actively involved.  Parents are the ones who are there. The only people actually available to view the product and provide informed opinion (and many parents uninformed opinions).  It is the job of the school and principal to weed out the uniformed opinion, take in all information and make decisions.  

Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  Literally everything a school needs to actually be a school.  Students and money.

 

Well you are 100% wrong.  When you have parents who do not care about the program and just care about their kid getting what they want then you are not objective and should not have a say.  In terms of protecting from abuse that is a different story.  

No I do not work for you and I never will no matter how much taxes you pay.  The person who has no kids in the school system pays taxes - do they have a say?  I pay taxes so does that mean I'm self-employed?  I'm basically paying my own salary when I pay taxes.  That is such a weak argument.  Parents should be involved as I stated before but absolutely should they NOT make the calls.

coach2709 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

I am not sure I could disagree with you more.  The parents are really the only ones who care enough to provide feedback and have a voice that can be heard.  Sure the students can have a voice, but the school has the right to discipline and ignore them.

Parents are the only ones who are actually watching the games. They care the most.  Who would provide constructive feedback other than parents?   The principal has all of the education and all sports programs to manage, too much to be actively involved.  Parents are the ones who are there. The only people actually available to view the product and provide informed opinion (and many parents uninformed opinions).  It is the job of the school and principal to weed out the uniformed opinion, take in all information and make decisions.  

Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  Literally everything a school needs to actually be a school.  Students and money.

 

Well you are 100% wrong.  When you have parents who do not care about the program and just care about their kid getting what they want then you are not objective and should not have a say.  In terms of protecting from abuse that is a different story.  

No I do not work for you and I never will no matter how much taxes you pay.  The person who has no kids in the school system pays taxes - do they have a say?  I pay taxes so does that mean I'm self-employed?  I'm basically paying my own salary when I pay taxes.  That is such a weak argument.  Parents should be involved as I stated before but absolutely should they NOT make the calls.

"Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. "

I agree,  it should not be about parents advancing their kids.  It is not about "having a say"  it is not a vote. It is about who are the concerned parties.  The school is hiring someone with parents money to coach the parents children.  They have the greatest vested interest.  If that coach is doing a poor job, the parents are the people most likely to notice.  The person who does not have kids in the school does not know or care. The parents have a right to voice concerns to management and they can ignore or not.  

And, it is not just tax dollars. I know at our school tax dollars don't cut it. We pay a large booster fee, we run events to raise money, build better facilities.  These things last way past my child being there.  We don't and should not make the calls, but we 100% have a voice.  Hell, the coach holds a meeting before the season starts and asks us to contribute...that comes at a price...

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.  

coach2709 posted:

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.  

That's great and the process is working the way it should.  We all have customers we have to listen to who have little of value to say.  I would guess more than 1% is valuable, but 1% if better than nothing.

Parents only see the games.  They don't see the practices.  They don't see who stands out in practice, and who hustles all out in practices.  They don't see, even in games, every wat that the kids interact with their teammates & coaches.

Parents do not at all have an informed perspective.   Ultimately, parents have the least informed perspective of everyone involved.  (Players, Coaches, Parents).

Back when I coached, I would experience such a thing frequently:

"Why isn't my kid playing Shortstop?  He was a great shortstop in Little League All Stars/13U Travel etc"

Well, we gave him opportunities at Short in practice.  He has the range of a fire hydrant (or maybe he just doesn't have as much range as a few other players on the roster).  He looks like nobody ever taught him how to do transfers correctly, he is way behind etc.  He pouted visibly in practice when we put him at 3B/LF etc

"Why isn't my kid playing Catcher?"

Besides the fact that he never brings his cup to practice?   Despite being told multiple times that he needs a cup at practice to be a catcher?

I could go on and on....

3and2Fastball posted:

Parents only see the games.  They don't see the practices.  They don't see who stands out in practice, and who hustles all out in practices.  They don't see, even in games, every wat that the kids interact with their teammates & coaches.

Parents do not at all have an informed perspective.   Ultimately, parents have the least informed perspective of everyone involved.  (Players, Coaches, Parents).

Back when I coached, I would experience such s thing frequently:

"Why isn't my kid playing Shortstop?  He was a great shortstop in Little League All Stars/13U Travel etc"

Well, we gave him opportunities at Short in practice.  He has the range of a fire hydrant (or maybe he just doesn't have as much range as a few other players on the roster).  He looks like nobody ever taught him how to do transfer correctly, he is way behind etc.  He pouted visibly in practice when we put him at 3B/LF etc

"Why isn't my kid playing Catcher?"

Besides the fact that he never brings his cup to practice?   Despite being told multiple times that he needs a cup at practice to be a catcher?

I could go on and on....

again....

"Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. "

The only say a parent has in a school sports program is to point it out to a person of power and responsibility if their kid is being physically or mentally abused. Not playing short and/or batting third is not abuse. Not being selected for the team is not abuse. Being benched is not abuse. Being disciplined for poor behavior is not abuse. 

No one is forcing a parent to have their kid play and contribute booster fees. The parent has the option to not have their kid participate. 

We just had a local case where an attorney argued on behalf of a baseball player and his family his constitutional rights were being denied. In the judge’s decision she noted there have been eighteen previous decisions in the US stating extracurricular activities at school are not a constitutional right. 

In terms of the baseball (or other sport) quality of the coaching you have to assume the AD knows what he/she is doing whether you agree or not. Parents should not be involved in hiring or firing coaches.

Well, first off that is embarrassing that someone would hire a lawyer and waste the governments time over youth sports playing time.  

As far as the rest, that is your opinion and obviously others are entitled to theirs.  Schools and athletic programs are most effective when there is active parental involvement.  This has been shown to be the case over and over.  Student achievement, test scores, college readiness, athletic enrollment, etc.  Like so many things too much is a bad thing and too little is as well. 

It has been my experience that most people perform better when they know they are being held accountable.  

Parents can participate in school sports by raising money for the team and cheering them on. Parents can file a complaint to the AD or principal about alleged physical or mental abuse of their child. Parents have no business having any part in the on the field decision making. This includes who is coaching and how. 

No! Don't Call

but we 100% have a voice.  Hell, the coach holds a meeting before the season starts and asks us to contribute...that comes at a price...

No, you don't.   The only time parents have a say is if there is a suspicion of  abuse or there is a health issue as previously posted.  Otherwise, it is a dictatorship with the coach in charge of all decisions on the field.  It is NOT a democracy. 

Parents may have a say in what the booster club does, but not what the team does on the field.

As they saying goes, if you don't like it, get your son, his glove and bat and leave.

You have 0% of a voice.  You have 100% of a choice.

You can choose to have your son not participate in a particular program.  

I suggest anyone who believes they get a direct say because they pay taxes pull over a cop and tell him how to do his job. If you want to eat dirt try doing it do a FBI Tactical Force member. 

Ok, where to start.  First, my kid plays and the coach is still an idiot.     

Second, if a parent has an issue with a math teacher being a really bad math teacher, they can and should say something.  I uncovered a math teacher using answer keys which where flat out wrong.   Should I just stay silent?  Who cares if the kids are struggling because their homework answer keys are wrong?  

I think it would go a long way for coaches/ADs (and others) to accept the power structure of any public school.  It starts with the voters.  You have three active communities of voters.  1)  Old people.    2) People that don't want their taxes to go up regardless.  These two groups show up for tax referendums.  3)  Parents of kids in school.  This group is engaged while their kids are in school plus/minus a few years.  School board members usually win their seats by a handful of votes.  So parents matter to them.  Once that is accepted, things are easier to manage and you can see where the pressure points are.  

Good districts will have good board members who are able to deal appropriately with all sorts of complaints.  And little Johnny not playing is just one of many they get every week.  Good Boards will hire good people -- and good Principals and good Ad's will provide somewhat of a shield behind which a coach can do his/her job.  But what parents and players mostly want is competence.  They don't want to pick the team, determine playing time and all of that.  The vast majority of programs go along without issue -- most are small, at the margin, and dealt with.  A small minority have issues and make the news. 

The big thing now is "old school" vs. "new school" coaching.  Things have definitely changed in that respect.  "Old school" is no longer acceptable - whether that is good or bad is a different conversation.  The parents wont accept it -- so they go to the board with the horrible "stories" and the the "old school" coach is gone.  Nobody has ever said the coach should be fired because he is too nice.    

Golfman25 posted:

Ok, where to start.  First, my kid plays and the coach is still an idiot.     

Second, if a parent has an issue with a math teacher being a really bad math teacher, they can and should say something.  I uncovered a math teacher using answer keys which where flat out wrong.   Should I just stay silent?  Who cares if the kids are struggling because their homework answer keys are wrong?  

I think it would go a long way for coaches/ADs (and others) to accept the power structure of any public school.  It starts with the voters.  You have three active communities of voters.  1)  Old people.    2) People that don't want their taxes to go up regardless.  These two groups show up for tax referendums.  3)  Parents of kids in school.  This group is engaged while their kids are in school plus/minus a few years.  School board members usually win their seats by a handful of votes.  So parents matter to them.  Once that is accepted, things are easier to manage and you can see where the pressure points are.  

Good districts will have good board members who are able to deal appropriately with all sorts of complaints.  And little Johnny not playing is just one of many they get every week.  Good Boards will hire good people -- and good Principals and good Ad's will provide somewhat of a shield behind which a coach can do his/her job.  But what parents and players mostly want is competence.  They don't want to pick the team, determine playing time and all of that.  The vast majority of programs go along without issue -- most are small, at the margin, and dealt with.  A small minority have issues and make the news. 

The big thing now is "old school" vs. "new school" coaching.  Things have definitely changed in that respect.  "Old school" is no longer acceptable - whether that is good or bad is a different conversation.  The parents wont accept it -- so they go to the board with the horrible "stories" and the the "old school" coach is gone.  Nobody has ever said the coach should be fired because he is too nice.    

 

ahhhh....a voice of reason.  I think the disconnect is the posters don't WANT this to be true.  They believe it SHOULD NOT be true.  That coaching is sacred and they should only answer to a disengaged principal.  

The reality is as you said, it is about influence.  If parents choose to place pressure on principals and school board members they can enact change.  The downside is when parents use it to advance their own children instead of what may be best for a program.  It is up to management to sort through that and not engage when the issue is personal.  

In our town we have a youthful and eager freshman coach and a 35 year veteran Varsity coach.   The varsity coaches teaching method for improving hitters is to yell...come on you got to drive that.  He is in part credited for the need to enact pitch count rules.  He talks for 20 minutes at the pre-season meeting about his open door policy for parents and how he is there to help and grow players and answer questions.  Then if a parent reaches out he brings it up to the players that some idiot parent came to see him.  Personally I don't think parents should talk to baseball coaches about their kids, but some do it and he tells them they should.  

The freshman coach teaches proper swing mechanics, bat plane and path, etc.  He videos himself at home at night with mechanical tips he saw as issues in that day's game and texts it to players.  If a former player goes to him for a lesson you have to fight him to take money as he says it is for the betterment of the program.  Twice now over the last few years the JV job has come open, but the varsity coach wont move him up...they don't see eye to eye on baseball matters.  Our JV coach is now a football coach.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  

Bwahahaha. This made my day. I'm hoping you're just a character or an alter ego trying to stir the pot. 

coach2709 posted:

Yes coaches should be scrutinized but that's not a parents job and never will be.  Yes you have your opinion and you have your background in baseball.  Could be you are very knowledgeable or could be you're clueless - doesn't matter because it's very difficult to be objective when you have a kid on the team.  For every objective parent out there who can correctly assess how a coach is doing there's MANY who cannot.  Plus, I don't work for you - you don't hire me or fire me (well you shouldn't). I work for the principal and the school system and as long as they are happy then the coach should stay.  If they are weak and give in to parents then you are actually doing the coach a favor because who wants to stay in that situation?

Don't get me wrong - parents are vital to a successful program but they have their role.  That role just doesn't happen to involve evaluating coaches to retain or remove from a job. 

I think there are two ways to look at that.  I do believe it is my job as a parent to scrutinize the coach.  My kids health could depend on that.  My kids development could depend on that.  You are or have been an AD correct?  Maybe you are one of the very very few good ones.  Most AD's I have come in contact with throughout my years of coaching had little to no idea what was going on in my program.  They were usually football coaches who couldn't care less about any other sport but it allowed the school to pay them more money.  Once I even had a priest AD cause the order wanted to prep him for administration and decided AD would be a good spot.  He had no clue athletically.  And don't even get me started on principals.  The higher up you go in education often the more inept the people become.  Yes as parents we do need to scrutinize the coaches though I think your greater point is that as a parent we do not have hiring/firing authority.  

coach2709 posted:

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.  

coach I like you and never have had a quarrel with you as far as i can remember and want to keep it that way but I must confess you are kind of hitting on a nerve here a little.  As a teacher and coach I can tell you that 99% of all things said in faculty meetings or even athletic department meetings is a total waste of time and hours of my life I will never get back.  You want nails on a chalk board?  Just listen to your average principal drone on in a faculty meeting.  Most teachers are screwing around in the back of the room like school kids.  We don't care!!!  Now that I am old and just sub I can not tell you how happy I am not to be in those meetings.  And maybe its a preconceived notion on both sides.  Maybe you go into that parent meeting with a bias.  I will openly admit I went into every faculty meeting with a bias.  Maybe I missed some good stuff cause I had determined long ago those meetings were a colossal waste of time.  Just food for thought.  

RJM posted:

The only say a parent has in a school sports program is to point it out to a person of power and responsibility if their kid is being physically or mentally abused. Not playing short and/or batting third is not abuse. Not being selected for the team is not abuse. Being benched is not abuse. Being disciplined for poor behavior is not abuse. 

No one is forcing a parent to have their kid play and contribute booster fees. The parent has the option to not have their kid participate. 

We just had a local case where an attorney argued on behalf of a baseball player and his family his constitutional rights were being denied. In the judge’s decision she noted there have been eighteen previous decisions in the US stating extracurricular activities at school are not a constitutional right. 

In terms of the baseball (or other sport) quality of the coaching you have to assume the AD knows what he/she is doing whether you agree or not. Parents should not be involved in hiring or firing coaches.

In a perfect world, the AD is making the best decision for the sport and the kids.  In reality, sometimes a coach is hired because she is the wife of a football coach they want to hire...or he is a football coach they want to hire, so he is also the new freshman or JV baseball coach.  That happens.   

I agree with much of what 3and2 said.  Times have changed.  High school coaches simply are not very good anymore.  Of course there are exceptions but the majority not very good.  My son does not play for his high school team.  Just a personal choice for a lot of reasons not only the coach.  We do have choices now.  And simply not playing there is one of those choices.  Its funny cause we live in an age where more information than ever is available to coaches and they just dont seem to want to drink.  I don't come on here much anymore cause I really tired of the arguments.  But you could go to the archives and find old threads from just a couple years ago with people on here, some coaches, actually advocating for hitting ground balls and denying that wingspan is a significant advantage for pitchers among other outdated points of view proven false beyond a shadow of a doubt by physics and statistics.  The tobacco spitters I call them.  "I don't care none about that science crap we do it old school here"  actually had a coach in a face to face discussion once tell me "I bet that physicist never played baseball"  I was sharing some Dr. Alan Nathan stuff with him.  He was having none of it.  He insisted you hit the top half of the ball to make it magically go up.  Now personally I don't know if Dr. Nathan played baseball or not.  Nor do I care.  The laws of physics apply even to Willie Mays.  Baseball coaches are some of the most backwards coaches of all.  Basketball coaches these days are afraid of their kids and run nothing resembling an offense.  It is street ball and they call it motion.  Bobby Knight the king of motion offense with many rules has to be shaking his head.  Football coaches  have no idea how to manage or manipulate the clock.  Maybe we could use a few more parents who never played the game to do some research and learn something then go into coaching!!

2020dad posted:

coach2709 posted:

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.  

coach I like you and never have had a quarrel with you as far as i can remember and want to keep it that way but I must confess you are kind of hitting on a nerve here a little.  As a teacher and coach I can tell you that 99% of all things said in faculty meetings or even athletic department meetings is a total waste of time and hours of my life I will never get back.  You want nails on a chalk board?  Just listen to your average principal drone on in a faculty meeting.  Most teachers are screwing around in the back of the room like school kids.  We don't care!!!  Now that I am old and just sub I can not tell you how happy I am not to be in those meetings.  And maybe its a preconceived notion on both sides.  Maybe you go into that parent meeting with a bias.  I will openly admit I went into every faculty meeting with a bias.  Maybe I missed some good stuff cause I had determined long ago those meetings were a colossal waste of time.  Just food for thought.  

I agree with you that having meetings to have meetings is pointless.  If I have an athletic department meeting then it's because it's important.  I try to handle everything face to face, email, text or phone call.  My principal is the same way and the atmosphere at our school is pretty positive.  If we have a meeting we do it during planning periods so nobody has to stay after school.  We are supposed to have a meeting tomorrow but he canceled it because he has nothing to go over.  That's how things should be done.

The flip side is most of the meetings we have is because we have to.  Start of each season we have to have a meeting before tryouts to discuss concussions, procedures and other things.  The state mandates this and kids and parents have to come to it because there is paperwork tied to it.  On my side of it I despise these meetings because I have no doubt that after their freshman year there's no need to have it.  No matter how much I try to change it up it's the same information over and over and I know for a fact the parents / kids hate coming to them.  But if they don't we get fined.  

As for me being a good AD or not it depends on who you ask.  Same with coaches, principals, teachers, plumbers, lawyers, doctors and every other profession.  For whatever reason some people just don't like others and think they are inept no matter what.  It is what it is but I like to think I'm a good one but I can probably point you in the direction of those who think I'm clueless.  They may be right to be honest.

How are parents the perfect choice to scrutinize teachers, coaches, principals or ADs?  Are they experts in those fields?  Do they have knowledge in budgeting matters, scheduling, conflict resolution and lesson planning?  Do they know how the 7 types of learning styles and how to create a differentiated lesson plan that hits all 7 types?  Do they know how to adjust lesson plans to reach the high flyers and the special needs kids who are all in the same class?  Granted there are teachers et al who stink at these things as well.  But we have a system in place that parents have an indirect voice.  People elect school board members, who hire board of education directors, who hire principals, who hire teachers and ADs.  Let them do their job because there is a reason we are not a direct democracy with our government - too many voices doesn't allow for any messages to be heard.

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

coach2709 posted:

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

I see arrogance as the cause coach.  When I was cutting my teeth I started by keeping the book for the college I attended.  I loved basketball but was not talented enough to play in college so I was the official scorekeeper.  It allowed me to travel with the team and the coaches knew I wanted to be a high school teacher and coach so they mentored me along the way.  I always rode in the van with the coaches and we talked basketball for hours.  I was lucky this particular college coach was a great one.  But all veteran coaches in those days were eager to help the up and comers.  After I took my first job I still attended the college games when I could and hung out with them as much as possible.  Met other college coaches through them and picked all their brains.  When I was in my 20's for the most part I shut up and listened.  I hate to sound like the typical old guy but I guess thats what I am so I have to wear it.  Everyone wants the young bucks now who have 'energy'.  There are fewer and fewer veteran coaches.  The young guys don't spend the time we used to and in their defense don't have as many veteran coaches to mentor them like we did.  I could never coach boys now, maybe girls.  I would be run out of town on a rail.  I would run a strict patterned offesnse with far, far more opportunities for my better scorers.  No equal opportunity street ball motion for me.  Shooters shoot, rebounders rebound and passers pass!  Play your role or sit the bench.  These young coaches give into players and parents alike.  They run nothing on offense and care little about defense.  Their knowledge of the game is minimal and they are all 'players coaches'.  I must add I dont know the seven learning styles and couldnt care less.  1992 was the last time the US was number one in the world in education.  We are now below midpoint.  Sad.  In 1992 the kids came in sat in their assigned desk, shut up and we lectured while they took notes.  It worked and nobody gave a poop about learning styles.  It was about the greater good.  And when these kids get a job in corporate America nobody there will give a crap about their learning style either.  We are not preparing our kids well for real life anymore.  And also in 1992 schools hired people who could coach.  Now you have a bunch of admins who read books written by some Harvard dope smoker about some new theory of education and they hire dreamers who believe all that crap.  Worrying about who can coach gets zero consideration.  So now we have all these coaches from outside the building who are treating it like their personal play toy or hobby.  And they are arrogant and dont listent to anyone partially cause they dont spend their lives around other coaches like we used to.  

coach2709 posted:

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

High School coaching is declining because The Game is passing a lot of those guys by.  Swing down to contact, the short quick guy plays middle infield, the fast guys hit at the top of the order (regardless of OBP), it is totally fine for a kid to go play Short or 3rd after pitching, the value of bunting, anybody can play first base, etc etc I could go on & on.... So many falsehoods that have been proven to be mostly a thing of the past.  

"Tobacco spitters", that is a good term for them, 2020Dad!   Parents & kids have gotten wise.  

Now look, I understand that in some parts of the country the high school Baseball is wonderful (consider yourself lucky!) and there are some great high school coaches out there, but from what I can tell a huge majority of high school Baseball coaches out there are glorified Phy Ed teachers/babysitters.

And don't get me started on the idiocy that goes on when a Baseball coach without a degree in exercise physiology supervises weight training.  Or the lack of knowledge when it comes to arm care for pitchers.  If my kid was a top flight pitcher with D1 or pro potential I would keep him far away from 99.9% of high school programs in America.  (Edit, OK maybe 98%)

High School coaches don't like Travel Ball because it has taken their control away.  They no longer get to manipulate families with threats of never making Varsity if a kid doesn't play in the high school summer Legion program.   They no longer hold all the cards when it comes to a kid's recruitment or lack thereof.

Yes, parents can be part of the problem for high school Baseball, but imho they are but a tip if the iceberg.

Now, I'm not the type of parent that would try to get a coach fired or try to change a program.  But I do recognize that there are other options.