Are there too many travel ball teams/players?

JBB,
I'm not gonna comment on this one!

quote:

But one very successful local HS coach recently told me that 'nearly every kid he gets anymore says they've played "travel ball."' But that NOT nearly every kid seems like a travel-ball talent.

words fly on this site like crazy. "elite" "travel" "select" "tournament" "all star" how about "you can play" or "you cant play"

To the original question....yes.

This is a question that I have heard for years.
In our area there are probably 25 Elite teams which are above AAA Travel ball. It is also very expensive. The talent pool appears to be stretch but I believe these kids deservr to strive for the highest level they can attain. Most Elite programs offer better coaching but not always. At 14 it is too early to judge how good these players will become. Most of these teams are development teams some of the not so great players will advance past the stars.
I actually feel there is not too many but question the caliber of some coaching staff that I have seen.

quote:

In our area there are probably 25 Elite teams

Kind of makes you think about the meaning of elite.

An emphatic YES!!!!!!

I too was in Vegas not too long ago and what they are now doing is placing only the top 16 teams , after about 2 to 3 games, in a major Division while the other 14 to 16 teams play in a Division 2 league. It is pretty obvious that Daddy ball is in Travel Ball now.

Basically Daddy's little boy couldn't make the "Elite Team" so what's a Daddy to do? Well Daddy says forget this ****! I am going to make my own team and put my son at SS. Enter a couple of tourney's a year and my son can say , " well I am in an Elite Team too! Daddy works a little harder to accomplish this goal but in the end he accomplishes it and thus water downs this years tournament with a 12-0 loss and 13-1 loss. But goes home happy!

Here in Southern Cali there are new Teams popping up all the time. Multiple names and also kids who play on multiple teams! It is pretty funny.......

It is interesting how different the different regions of the country are when it comes to "travel" and "elite" teams.

In Oregon there are very few travel teams. Generally the high school varsity players play on their school's legion team in the summer. Some of the better players will join up with out-of-state travel teams for a few tournaments during the summer, but to my knowledge there are not any travel or elite teams that are based in Portland at the high school level.

There are opportunities for the better players in the area to combine into tournament teams and play in, say, the Junior Olympics or some other national tournament, but these teams are on-shot deals for the most part.

I've often wondered whether this has an effect on recruiting. Obviously it is much more efficient for scouts to watch elite teams than chase all around the state watching legion teams that might have one prospect.

That said, talent gets noticed. My son's high school had high D1 scholarship pitchers recruited in two of the last three years. (Last year, there was only one graduating senior, and he will play DII ball this spring.)

So, I'm not sure whether not having travel teams is better or worse, but it sure is interesting how different things are, and it sure is less expensive just doing a legion team and then the occasional tournament team.

Maybe I am lucky!

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Have said this all along....

Travel ball is the next community ball...(this has already happened in other sports)...

...and it will be based as much on $'s than it will be on talent...Families with $ will do travel just to keep up with the Observer44's next door...Leaves the community leagues stripped not only of the elite talent but of players and the donated talent, labor and passion it takes to keep them the primary choice of community youth.

Also weakens the travel leagues into pseudo community ball...

Welcome to the new world of youth baseball. Have said this before...has major ramifications for the future of professional ball.

44
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I'd say a qualified no - the issue is a lack of a qualification mechanism to level out the competition at events. I'd love for every kid to have a place to play baseball when the rec programs are done - but I don't think a thrown together team made up of rec ball players from some area should be playing against a high end travel team - e.g. ABD, Norcal, East Cobb, etc. It is not good for either side.

Somehow there needs to be a system that allows events to partition out the different levels of team. Otherwise you have events where pool play ends up with 20 and 30 - 0 blowouts.

I think there will always be a few teams that rise to the top. The Ontario Bluejays, Canadian Thunder Birds, Intercounty terriers, Oakville Royals and several others are Elite teams no matter what area you are from. No Dadt ball here but there is some in AAA travel teams.
I suggest you go to tournaments where top teams are playing if the competition is below you.
Especially younger levels like 13-14 YO lds they deserve to play and be taught by good coaches. I like to think that the program is Elite and developing players that may not be so elite according to your standards..

As long as parents create the teams, select the players (or buy the player's spot on the roster), and/or coach the teams, I would have to say the answer is generally YES.

The challenge is that when the top teams show up at an event that has 40 or 50 teams - and only 10 or so are "top teams". You spend a lot of time and money working through the early rounds with no value gained...

quote:

The challenge is that when the top teams show up at an event that has 40 or 50 teams - and only 10 or so are "top teams". You spend a lot of time and money working through the early rounds with no value gained...

Cut the numbers you have above in half (30/5) and that would be a very accurate description of this tournament this year IMO. Didn't think it was that way just 6 years ago.

Really not much fun when you fly or drive for several hours somewhere for an event and the pool games end up being a waste of time.

Also if the idea is to develop your players, neither side is getting any development in...

Only answer that I can see is more like what triple crown / Perfect game are trying to do with events that you have to play your way into - e.g. win or do well in a local event then you can qualify for a better event. Only challenge is that administrative overhead is significant.

yes to many teams,not enough talent either.i can see the drop in talent between my son's age's.and scouts i've talked to say they draft less talent every year.still talented but less of them.
i do agree with daddy ball as well.don't see it around here as much though.

This is so very sad to hear. Having just one son now in college, I haven't been around travel ball for the last 2 seasons. Boy, its hard to believe things have changed in this area so quickly.

JBB--Sounds like you were describing our team (daddy ball) but we were too busy here playing the other teams you described. We've only been involved with travel ball for a while but certainly have seen an increase in numbers and a decrease in talent but that only makes sense to me since the talent seems to be distributed among the other teams. Actually even on our team, although we have some talented kids, only about 3 would I consider to be "elite" and could compete on any team I've ever seen. And unfortunately when the more serious kids have to play the weaker teams, the stronger teams seem to also play down and is that really accomplishing what we set out to do? Heck, the only thing that happened this weekend for us was the crier kept crying and the daddy's boys played all the positions they wanted and we still beat the other teams. Me thinks we are going to have to make adjustments

It comes down to $$$. The tournaments want as many teams as they can get into their tournament as they can handle. Some tournaments are fairly selective as to who they get into the tournament and you have to go through a qualifier to play in them, others like Junior Olympics try to filter stronger teams into the tournament, but the local travel team tournaments will take anyone they can get to play.

For the strong teams which are looking for good competition, to travel long distances just to 10 run teams is not very satisfying but there are only a few teams within the areas that will draw the top players to become the powerhouse and can compete at the state or national level.

On the player side of the equation, players may be looking for better competition or the dream to reach the “next level”, but not everyone will reach the next level, being high school, college (D1, D2, etc), or the pros. The dream and desire to get to the next level has to be balanced with practical reality, you may not be good enough to play at the next level and that will come out when competing in an area that would push you to get better or come to the realization that they do not have what it takes but can compete at some level, but it is not the top level.

What I don’t agree with is the teams that go out there and do not have good coaching, can not compete at the level they are trying to play and market themselves as a place they should be spending their thousands of dollars with for the exposure to colleges, just to get their butts kicked and not learn anything and really look bad at doing it.

But who is to say they should not compete, there are some high schools that are just awful and some colleges that also may never win a game in their weak league, but should they not play the game if they love it?

The answer is a resounding YES if they see it as a stepping stone to the next level and I think most do! Three things control this phenomenon in my opinion. #1 is the rose colored glasses through which these parents see their sons, #2 is the ability of those same parents to spend money and #3 is the abundance of organizers of events and teams that are competing for a piece of the action/glory/money.

Ten years ago there were a limited number of “travel” teams and these travel teams could select the best of the best players. These “best of the best” established what appeared to be a method for success and every other player wanted to follow in their footsteps. Over the next few years there weren’t enough teams to accommodate all these parents and players WANTING to get to the next level. Of course this “need” for more teams is easily solved. Just create more teams. More players means more teams more teams means more tournaments more tournaments mean more world series and more world series means more invites to more high profile showcase and more showcases means more college scholarships ---WRONG! Everything has exploded except the scholarships. The scholarships stay the same --- Sorry Bunky! Colleges only pick the best of the best (you do remember us talking about the best of the best that were on the original travel teams??) Recreational level players are just going through the same motions and having a great time spending money and travelling throughout the country. I hope they are having a great time but worry that they will be disappointed after HS graduation.
Fungo

So, justbaseball, did your team win the tournament? Was it one of the competitive teams or one of the weaker teams you mention?

I have been involved with teams in this event on and off for the past eight years. These teams in every case have either won the event or made it to the semifinals. Some of these guys are now playing at places like Arizona State, UCLA, Stanford and in professional baseball.

This weekend, our team (Rocky Mountain baseball) won the 15U championship by run-ruling a team from the San Francisco area. Of course it helped that our pitcher in that game was throwing in the upper 80s (at least early on) and pitched a no-hitter in addition to hitting a three-run homer about 380 feet. It did not help that we lost our shortstop in the second inning of the semifinals to an injury, but with the pitching we had, it did not matter much in the end.

The bottom line is this: there are more teams overall. More good teams and more weaker teams. I don't see any difference in quality today than I did eight years ago. In fact, the teams we bring today tend to be stronger, but time will tell if these kids go on to do as well as those original kids.

Wow, is it just me, or does it appear that a disproportionate number of comments on this particular topic are coming from Northern California? Are we seeing it first, or is it that this has been beaten to death on NorcalPreps? I also haven't been to one of these in 2 years, so can't say one way or the other.... but it is a drag when you spend a ton of $$$$ and don't get the challenge envisioned.

cadDAD....

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In Shakespeare's time, mattresses were secured on bed frames by ropes. When you pulled on the ropes the mattress tightened, making the bed firmer to sleep on. Hence the phrase......... "goodnight, sleep tight."

!

I can see where there is a concern about the thinning the talent pool but what about the kids and families that want the experience of travel ball. Sure you can create divisions of teams but then you may be excluding many individual players that deserve the notice. I would envision there would be very few scouts at any level that would take time to go to these events. Who is the loser here?

PG has qualifying events for the WWBC and that seems to work ok except there are still teams that go to Jupiter that walk through the round play and others that struggle to score a run in their 4 game prelims. Many members on this site have kids that play for we define as "elite" teams, but in reality, how many elite teams are there? Who will define what an elite team is?

I am a proponent of maximizing the number of players involved with travel ball and it is up to elite teams to research the tournaments and/or tournaments themselves going to a "by invite" format. I don't see many of them doing that because there is a profit margin involved and then there is that overhead and time involved in finding the right teams.

While I understand the feelings of those who go to tourneys and are disappointed in the talent level, I feel it is up to those teams to be a little smarter in picking their outings. Bottom line, Daddyball is a phrase we throw out that I feel is unfair except in a very few situations where the dad of a player is actually involved, in most cases its teams put together with players of lesser quality. Travel ball was established to get more kids involved in off season baseball, now we want to say to some, stay away from us "big boys".

rz1 - Nice post.

BTW, just to be clear. I am not dissing this particular tournament. It is a very popular "Halloween" tournament on the West Coast that draws teams from AZ, SoCal, NorCal, NV and a few from the East. In general it is a "fun" tournament for parents because of the venue and it is well-run by pleasant/nice people.

To my knowledge, there is no filtering of the caliber of teams attending however it tends to attract some very top-end West Coast teams. Talent just seemed noticeably down this year compared to 6 years ago. I did not see many of what I would call "sure thing" HS stars whereas in 2000 I saw lots of them.

I just thought this would be interesting to discuss...thats all, nothing more.

We used to see a lot of what I called the "dreams die hard" teams -- stocked with kids who couldn't make the good travel teams but who just kept pushing to make it, or more commonly, whose parents kept pushing them as if they would make it.

The do lose 12-0 and 13-1, but no, they don't go home happy. They are terminally unhappy. And so eventually these teams wither on the vine.

Age 13 is when they start to struggle, 14 is when the folding starts, and we saw lots of teams collapse in mid-season at age 15. Pretty much gone at age 16, after they've gotten cut by HS JV a few times and realize the jig is up.

So yeah, there are too many bad teams, but have patience, it'll take care of itself over your next few years.

rz1 great post.

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AcademyDad...

IMO you're right. Good or bad, I believe that we in NorCal are on the cutting edge of this trend.

44
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quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
rz1 - Nice post.

BTW, just to be clear. I am not dissing this particular tournament. It is a very popular "Halloween" tournament on the West Coast that draws teams from AZ, SoCal, NorCal, NV and a few from the East. In general it is a "fun" tournament for parents because of the venue and it is well-run by pleasant/nice people.

To my knowledge, there is no filtering of the caliber of teams attending however it tends to attract some very top-end West Coast teams. Talent just seemed noticeably down this year compared to 6 years ago. I did not see many of what I would call "sure thing" HS stars whereas in 2000 I saw lots of them.

I just thought this would be interesting to discuss...thats all, nothing more.

I had noticed that some of the age divisions filled up rather quickly so those programs that did not jump on it would be locked out due to the number of fields the LV tournament has, it is bad enough if you have mulitple teams in the tournament in different age divisions they are in totally different parts of the larger Las Vegas/Henderson area.

So some teams may have not gotten in.

rz1, Nice post but I never though that Travel ball was established to get more kids involved in off season baseball,

I always thought travel ball came about so the better player in one area could go to another area and compete with their better players.

I guess travel ball is different for different areas and/or different people.

Maybe I've had some different experiences but my oldest did not play on one of these "elite" travel teams." He played in the local community rec leagues through age 16 and then played on a 20 and under wood bat college league. We only paid for one tournament a year and that was the PG event in Jupiter. His 13-14 Pony team had two kids drafted and five others that are playing college baseball. Went to a few free scouting events but not that many.
Moved and the location were my younger one plays is controlled by "travel ball." It is amazing the stigma that gets attached to rec league and how suprised the people are when I state that my older son played rec ball. Having seen this act played out in three different states I am not impressed with the "travel ball scene." I am of the belief that kids play to many games and don't practice enough. I would sacrifice alot of the travel and prestigious locations at the younger ages for concentrated focused practice. That seems to be what seperates the truly elite teams from the also rans is the amount of practice they get between tournaments.

Remember people, This is creating Memories for family's.
Not just the most talented.
Some player's/parent's will go to these tournament's on a not so competitive of a team. But will go away with what it take's to get better.

JBB. You might be seeing the age differance.
Meaning your expecting more from 14 yr old's,
After watching your older one??

I do believe in the year's past, That the early bloomer's would be able to make the much prized Elite Travel team.
And therefore there talent was seen as superior.
Which it was. For there age and early devolopment.

The Travel team's are watered down.
But there is talent on these team's.

I don't fault anybody that want's what's best for there player.

I do not like the term daddy ball.
It make's daddy's seem like there less than human.

But I also believe in NOT Coaching your Son past 12 yr's. old.
It's just best for the Player and Parent.

Also Dad's, Take my advice for what it's worth.
Keep your mouth shut, and stay away from crowd's. EH

I am seeing the exact opposite in this state.

It appears as if the process is evolving and in a rapid fashion.

The consolidation of talent in NC is actually interesting to watch - with The DirtBags leading the way and the On Deck O's and the South Charlotte Panthers right there as well.

Thats it.

Not to say others wont try - and that is fine IMO - but - for a state with alot of players - that is where the action is.

I just dont see an explosion of travel teams here.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
rz1, Nice post but I never though that Travel ball was established to get more kids involved in off season baseball,

I always thought travel ball came about so the better player in one area could go to another area and compete with their better players.

I guess travel ball is different for different areas and/or different people.

Good point Fungo. I think you are correct that initially travel ball was established for the dedicated "better player", thus a small and VERY talented stable of players. But like anything else there is an evolution of a "product" that works. PG and other groups saw that there were a number of players wanting to make this committment and the ball was set in motion. Is it out of control? Absolutly not! Travel teams I feel are formed because of a passion for the game, and that passion is something you don't try to hold down.

ITs please don't take this disrespectfully but it appears that the prolifiration runs along socio economic lines. I am not sure of the area you are in but money seems to begot more travel teams?

Deldad,

Understood.
Where I used to live - a new "elite" travel team popped up every day - or so it seemed. LOL

Complete with "on the field" masseuses (I kid you not) LOL.

That when I knew - it was time to move. LOL

Well in North Cali, There's been an increase of travel team's.
Now with that said, There is also alot of Talented player's here.

The central valley, I believe has alot of talent that is untapped.
Most of the Talent will go to the Bay Area, To Play for an Elite Team.
Many other's will Head to Sacramento, Are Fresno.
It also has to do with Ex Ball Player's Wanting to Coach and put there stamp on a team.
Nothing wrong with that.
Also you have differant part's of the Country getting together for a Travel Tournament. With differant skill level's.

Pitching, Pitching, Pitching.
That's the Differance in most the high end Elite Team's.

I have a question EH are these Ex-players doing this gratis or are they making a living at it?

Oh I'm sure there trying to make a living, But your not going to make much unless you have your own place, and offer a good product other than Baseball Travel Team's,
Batting Cages/ Clinic's/ Sport's Product's for sale.
Most Team's are non Profit.

I believe some Player's are still very competitive and want to give back.

As far as N.Cali and the Talent Level.
There are New HS's being built in N. Cali at an alarming rate.
2500 to 3500 student's.
In the Central Valley alone I know of 10 HS that were built in the last five year's.
Now that's alot of Student's.
Unless your willing to beat the Brush to find the talent for your elite team. You have to take and evaluate the talent that come's to you.
Not all of them are elite player's, But I don't know a coach that doesn't think they can make a differance in a Player.
Nobody, I mean Nobody can tell what a player can become
with hard work.
There's a big differance between 14 and 18yr's old.
And there's a differance from 18 to 24yr's old also.

Just keep playing the Game.
That's what it's about. FUN
EH

What is the definition of Travel Team?

I think there are geographical definitions. At least In WI a travel team is one that has players from throughout the State and travels the Mid-West every weekend. It seems that in the baseball hotbeds of the country a travel team may be described as a team that is made up of a variety of players that travels to play similiar teams. That travel may involve across town, the next county, or other "day trips". At least that's my take.

Had a son on elite travel teams, and have been to that tournament two years ago - It was exactly as you described. Love the chance some kids have to play, BUT, shouldn't your players really be conditioning this time of year? The pitchers should be getting ready for the high school season, and the Thursday night to Sunday tournament format really detracts from any high school where grades are important. Frankly, I think the parents are a little nuts to drop $1,500 a weekend to please some travel ball guru dangling a place on a summer team (just like I was). The only conceivable reason to play now is for the recruited high school Senior or ELITE junior (PG top 1000 ranking) to be seen by college coaches. See many college coaches there recruiting 14 year olds?