Assess this statement.

TR, Oh yea! I remember Rshard etal now from three years ago when I posted under Rat Shapiro.

Brain cramp....How could I have forgotten. Know I'm getting old now-LOL

Call the retirement home and reserve Shep a bed!!!!

Must have really cleared my mind good while walking the beach these past couple of years before returning to the HSBBWeb site

Whatever happened to Rshard anyway???

Shep

Shep, he was reincarnated as Linear...

BTW, I got your messge.

Can't remember the movie but a line went, "From where we started, how'd we end up here?" Seems to be the same ole same ole. I actually posted on another site how great this discussion was going on the differences. Disappointing.

I respectfully request that we get back on topic.

Interesting enough, I just talked to Just_Learning as our kids had practice. All of the phrases and techniques that I was having our kids do were the exact concepts that his son heard in a recent hitting camp where the instructor called his technique Linear. Is the issue now that clouded?

My girl has been taught one style and one style only. I tried to get Just_Learning to view her swing from the perspective of rotational, hands and body working together, spine angle, torque against the front toe as her body uncoiled, and finish. His comment was that I very much described what that he heard a White Sox's instructor say. Go figure!

Again, PLEASE, lets stop the character attacks and talk hitting.

quote:

Can Jaramillo teach it?

PGStaff, not if he teaches separation of the upper and lower body halves, as you say he does.....They go as a cohesive unit.....Any other way isn't rotation as it should be....

Also, torque is a word that doesn't really fit in with rotation in the swing....MLB hitters don't torque.....There really is no torque in a high level swing.....

Now, I really must yield the floor to Shep.....He is having too much fun to sit on the sidelines for very long.....

BD

Glad your back bro.

Okay, where to start...Lets start on seperation of halves.

I happen to agree with that statement. They cannot be taught seperately. They work together.

Bluedog

Also agree with cohesive bond between the two.

Did notice your comments on spinning earlier in thread and will agree that many who think they can hit, spin alot>Spinners can't drive outside pitches or middle out pitches w/ authority.

The upper halve and bottom halve cannot work as an efficient unit w/o this cohesive dependence.

We were talking about CUs(changeups) earlier and I remember why I had success with those pitches. Recognized grip most times and when I picked that up out of hand my entire rotational load went automatically in slow motion and I was able to gather up so much grinding power till ball would jump like a heavy fastball at impact and would sail like you wouldn't believe.

Shep

ANother statement I noticed earlier in this thread about getting ready EVERY pitch and have body in hitting position whether trigger pulled in swing or not...That is so true and a GOOD hitter won't sit with front toe down waiting. Agree totally about that point. Cannot drive middle out pitches with that front side load approach.

Shep

quote:

Also, torque is a word that doesn't really fit in with rotation in the swing....MLB hitters don't torque.....There really is no torque in a high level swing.....

I disagree with this statement BD. PG is correct here in my teachings from DNA "anaylsis of movement" professionals. Zig will verify this. Email him he will tell you quick, you are wrong about that...

You have to create torque against strongest muscles in body in order to generate power at contact when the whip comes through in swingplane. Box must also be maintained in disclike fashion with rear shoulder tilted down and rear elbow tucked in closely to side. Have heard this here on several occasions. That is vital in follow-through and finish. Maintain the box>

This is the true power source. These muscles can be activated by slightly raising bottom discs of spine as in lifting your tail or sticking your gluteous muscles out. Haven't heard this here at HSBBW, this came from MLSB instructors when I attended scout development school. This would probably fit into the posture component of rotational swing.

Shep

If you will notice>

Good hitters activate larger muscle groups and depend more on those to perform baseball related movements.

Lowerbody always leads and upperhalve just goes along for the ride like a golfer's top hand in golf-swing.

If you create a strong foundation by leading lower halve out first the "torque" created will serve as catalyst that makes the action happen.

In golf, you hit a stationary object(golfball)

IN baseball, you hit a object moving w/ great velocity that sinks/spins/drops/rises/slides etc

Bottom line is the lever generates speed by creating strong center of gravity and strong lowerhalve foundation for powersource.

The center connects the lower and upper halves.

Abs are so important in the cohesive process in the aspect of remaining connected and not becoming seperated.

Shep-Your turn Bluedog, Swing or anybody else, feel free to jump in....

quote:
Also, torque is a word that doesn't really fit in with rotation in the swing....MLB hitters don't torque.....There really is no torque in a high level swing.....

if the mantra is scap load the rear elbow back and up as you rotate into toe touch then the spatial relationship of the rear elbow tip at the top of the load cycle when the toe opens DEFINES torque and X -factor. Then to say that it is not in a MLB swing is falling on your own SWORD. That makes absolutely no sense

Okay,

Guess while Bluedog has yielded the honor>

The upperhalve should remain loose and lively while lower halve is getting body in position because tension in muscles will actually slow down arm speed found in upperhalve movements as in pitching and/or hitting. The two are very similiar indeed. Loosey goosey are rhyme words I'm sure alot of you have heard out in the trenches.

The less tension found in body, the faster body can react to internalized movements. Premature tension slows down reaction time and slows down batspeed.

This is a main reason for teaching methodical movement in arms hands and fingers before the pitch and before the initial first movement in loading. Which BTW, haven't heard anyone say what MLSB taught us which is slightly pinch in rear ankle then up the tibia to anterior cruciate ligament(ACL) which is inside of backside knee to start process. This is a learned action and not normal body action in swing but can be internalized in short period of time even for those who don't do it at present time

Shep-Comeback somebody, waiting....

Your right Swing, he was testing us.

Notice he didn't stick around to talk about it

Shep

I wrote....

quote:

Here is something copied from an article:

Jaramillo… "Bonds is a student who never stops learning,"

Jaramillo has developed five keys to help hitters, whether they are 9 or 25: rhythm; see the ball; separate your hands; stay square; shift weight. Essentially it comes down to two key components: Separation and recognition. Or in even simpler terms: See the ball, hit the ball.

By preaching proper separation of the upper and lower body, Jaramillo gets hitters in a better hitting position earlier. It keeps them from lunging for balls and it gives them a fraction of a second more to recognize the pitch. An extra fraction of a second in the big leagues can make all the difference between fouling a ball off or driving it into the gaps.

BlueDog Comment...

quote:

quote:
Can Jaramillo teach it?



PGStaff, not if he teaches separation of the upper and lower body halves, as you say he does.....They go as a cohesive unit.....Any other way isn't rotation as it should be....

Also, torque is a word that doesn't really fit in with rotation in the swing....MLB hitters don't torque.....There really is no torque in a high level swing.....

Shep later writes...

quote:

By BlueDog... Also, torque is a word that doesn't really fit in with rotation in the swing....MLB hitters don't torque.....There really is no torque in a high level swing.....

I disagree with this statement BD. PG is correct here in my teachings from DNA "anaylsis of movement" professionals. Zig will verify this. Email him he will tell you quick, you are wrong about that...

Remember this...Here is something copied from an article:

I didn't say anything at all, it was copied from a Baseball America Story and where did anyone mention torque?

By the way, Rudy Jaramillo has a very impressive track record of success as a hitting coach/instructor! I'd venture to guess, a much better track record than all of us here!

Your right PG

Just went back and cked writings.

Got to watch that BD guy

Shep

My brain hurts Shep Just kidding this is awesome stuff Keep it coming

Let me see if I can find some recreational clips we can just watch and not have to think so much

Good idea NY DAD

Man...what you miss when you have to work on the weekend. Looks like I missed out on some good discussions guy. Sorry I am in so late! Did you save anything else for us late-comers??

Has been an exciting day to say the least

Shep

quote:

This shows rotation beginning before foot plant........

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/palmeiro2.mpeg

Bluedog....what are you smoking?

Use the slide bar at the bottom of the media player that shows Palmiero and freeze it at foot plant.....Even when his front heel hits the ground his hips are still closed, hands back etc.....he has not rotated a bit....the only thing that he HAS done is prepare himself to swing which he carrys through with.....I will say it again...."you try and hit a 90 mph (or better)....scratch that.....try an 85 mph FB....It is much easier to continue your swing if your approach is middle of the field and you are prepared to swing on EVERY pitch....the ONLY decision that should be made is NOT to swing......Ask any player who plays at a level where 85mph and better is faced daily and I will guarantee they share my view....I have NEVER spoke w/ anyone who says they decide to swing once they recognize it is a desirable pitch to take a pass at.....I don't even think you could use that line of thinking (or approach if you will) during BP....and I'm not talking about little league BP when you lob the ball...I'm talking about BP thrown from about 50ft at about 60-65 mph......Keep in mind, the BP thrower is TRYING to hit your bat......I would LOVE to throw you BP....Any chance of that happening....Like I said, "I travel quite a bit and throw beauty BP.....

And Bulldog....

Also notice that Palmiero (and numerous others) cannot start to fire the back hip to the ball untill the front heel hits the ground.....kinda gotta have something to hit against.....

One more thing Bulldog....

Palmiero happens to get off of his back side....the video you posted makes it tough to see but there is other footage of him that makes it easy to see.....

You might also go to Right View Pro and let Don Slaught know he doesn't know what he is talking about....Maybe he will pay for your knowledge....notice the Ichiro/Mantle comparison...How in the world are those guys successful??????

Low,
I was just about to state the same thing about Palmeiro. Blue is obviously looking to add fuel to the fire by posting and then inaccurately assessing a swing.
Without a base, no torque can be generated.

quote:

Without a base, no torque can be generated.

Coach,

My point exactly> Nice site out there in NDallas

Shep

Coach A....

Bulldog is blowing my mind.....

Bulldog has met his match fellows

He can't handle the "REAL FIRE".

Kal Daniels would love this>think I'LL call him tomorrow and give him site URL so he can read this thread.

LOL,
Shep

And all I have talked about w/ Bulldog is VERY BASIC stuff......I could get rich hanging around the cage w/ Bulldog.....pen and paper, take notes and write a book.....Best Seller...on what not to do....

Coach LOW337

Stanford must have won>

What college did you Coach at for 11 years?

Shep

You know, this is real good site for people to share ideas and parents who try and help youth. bbscout, shep, pgstaff and others give solid advice and it's a shame that people who have NO idea what they are talking about, let alone the practical experience to go along w/ it, try and sometimes successfuly brainwash the accountant, doctor, laborer and good intended eager to learn parent into buying that garbage....

I'll PM you shep

Thanks Coach and if you ever need a guest house in Dodgertown, let me know brother.

My casa is su casa,
Shep

My old boss is in Dodgertown.... ..roving infield guy w/ dodgers....

Check your PM shep

LOL....this whole darn time I've been calling Bluedog....Bulldog.....

for that I am sorry Bluedog....

PMs Back at cha' brother.

See ya' soon. Bulldog Bluedog-it's all the same!

Meant what I said about house also. Nice guest quarters!

Shep

Sounds good Shep!!!....Might have to take you up on that...have to be after July though....
I got your cell and will send mine....

Low337, I believe what BlueDog is saying is that if you focus on the hip pocket of Palmerio, you will see that his hips do slightly move before foot plant. Of course, I can't speak for him and so...

I've asked before and have not received any poster's definition of terms or phrases or simply phrases aligned to either philosophy. I'll do my best and then the posters can correct my errors.

Linear - "Throw your hands at the ball." (Heard Charlie Lau once say that."

Rotational - Hand and body work as a unit. Hands really don't move far from the body. (Side note, we say in our program, "keep your hands inside the ball." Noted that one poster not only doesn't like this phrase but warns all to avoid anyone that says it. We teach this but do a lot of video work on this as well with our hitters. My Assistant Coach is fantastic at Video Breakdown.)

The BACK toe? I've read here that "rotational people believe in squash the bug." Who was the origional Squash the Bug person? Believe it was a linear guy.

One fallicy, as I see it, and again, I'm sure I'll be corrected is that rotational guys don't come on their back toe. I think the opposite is true. When/if that force which I call torque or uncoil hits that front leg, it must have some counter action. I believe a part of that counter action is that the body does rotate on that back toe.

Linear - Forward movement of the body.

Rotational - Everyone I've ever talked to comments that you must stride forward in rotational. One critique, and maybe rightfully so, of Bluedog of me and what I teach is that we teach, "heel - toe." We've been very successful with this for a long time. However, he commented to me in the past that an efficient swings demands that forward movement. (Degree?)

OK, comments? BE KIND TO THE OLD GUY HERE. JUST TRYING TO KEEP A POSITIVE AND INFORMATIVE THREAD GOING.

HAVE A GREAT DAY! WE STARTED TODAY AT 6:30 A.M. COMING IN AGAIN AFTER SCHOOL. GO KNIGHTS!

Well I am gonna let you guys get a laugh to thing about..I dont know if your trying to build another barry bonds or if your tryin for pete rose but when I started out my father started my training on the end of an axe handle and to this day I know its all in there if ya do it right.....lmao