Bean ball etiquette?

Sorry, if you're talking HS and feel that there is EVER a correct time you hit a batter you're wrong....and I have a funny feeling this will be the nicest way anyone tells you that....lol

Yes, HS, and that's why I made the post with a ?

I completely disagree with Buckeye, there is a time and place for it, especially in HS.

Disputed call on a fly ball hit hear the left field line. LF'er for Team 2 (younger team) lays out, ball hits glove and falls foul. Ump says fair ball- that fielder's feet were inbounds when he touched the ball.

First - where was the ball when the fielder touched it?  If the ball was in foul territory then it doesn't matter where the LF feet were.  I can probably see why the coach got tossed.

 

Next batter up for team 1 (older team) gets plunked by a fastball. In my opinion, this batter shouldn't have been plunked. 

Second - I have no idea how the younger team can even justify hitting a batter in this situation.  The offensive team did nothing wrong.

 

Next time bird flapping baserunner comes to bat, team 1's new pitcher drills him with the first pitch. In my opinion, this was the correct time to hit a batter. He made a mockery of the game, and intentionally created a hostile situation.

Third - I'm with Buckeye in that there is no reason in HS baseball should there ever be a reason to intentionally hit a batter.  It's just not right to possibly hurt a kid over a HS / youth / amateur game.  Plus the flapping bird arm team is all Fr and So so the maturity factor should play into it - especially with the HC being gone to tell the kid to knock it off.  Although, whoever took over for the HC should have told him to knock it off.

 

 

I can say this, I am sure that the coach from team 1 did not tell his pitcher to hit the bird flapping player. The pitcher did that on his own with maybe a conference with a few of his teammates.

 

Stuff happens all the time in high school. Guy gets a late hit on the QB and postures.Next play an O Lineman seeks out the guy and earholes him.

 

Guy gets a fastbreak dunk and puts a little extra on it. Next time he gets hacked and thrown to the floor.

 

 

 

So what instances would there be a time and place for it?  There is no need for kids to throw at other kids.  A 75 MPH fastball can still break bones.  A HS kid may not have the ability to hit another kid in the leg or butt.  So the pitch may ride up and hit them in the head / arm / hand areas.  A HS kid may not be experienced enough to roll with the pitch to get out of the way or limit how severely it hits them.

Stay the hell away from youth baseball.

Everything else aside, the last thing I’d think of about any hit batter with a Fr or Soph on the mound pitching after a long delay against a much better team, is that the pitcher hit the batter on purpose.

 

Whether or not the 2^nd batter was hit on purpose is debatable as well, but if it was on purpose it was absolutely wrong. I know some of the old guys out there feel it’s a question of manhood, but it really isn’t, and those who need to have their manhood proven by taking advantage of someone are pathetic.

Why is this somewhat normal?!?

Unfortunately, I have seen it happen at the youth level.  Coach's can be $#@%^&. 

I guess because I've seen it many of times over the years, from youth ball through high school. There are always one or two kids on a team who will clap and try to distract the pitcher, so to me it is somewhat normal.

How about this hypothetical example... Dominant player crushes a homerun against an overmatched team that they are beating by a lot of runs in what will be a run rule game.

 

As he hits the hr, he flips the bat, poses to watch, walks his first few steps and begins a very slow David Ortiz timed jog to first. From first to second, he does the Kirk Gibson lawn mower pull/reverse fist pump. From second to third, he does the Jeffrey Leonard one flap down. From third to home he does the minor league Bryce Harper and blows a kiss to the pitcher. When he gets to home plate, he stands and points with both arms skyward just like Bonds after hitting 756. On his way back to the dugout, he lets out a Nature Boy Woooooo!!!!

 

Is it o.k. to plunk him next time?

Agree with Coach2709.  On the foul ball it doesn't matter where the fielder's feet are.  Can see why coach disputed the call.

 

As far as bean balls - I have not seen where anything good came from purposely hitting a batter - no matter what level (HS, college, pro).  It usually comes back to bite you.

I've seen it a lot too and it really gets me hot sometimes. I'll admit that the only time I've ever had a pitcher throw at a kid was at 13 when a kid was clapping and chatting while leading off of first. I told my pitcher to pick and put one low and inside first base as he dives back. I felt bad about it immediately. Not only because it was wrong, but also because it bounced in front of the kid and into right field for a two base error. Served ne right. personally I don't even buy the argument that it's ok at the major league level because they have such great control they can avoid hurting the batter. I don't think there's a place for it at any level.

Not really Stafford...but that is a good time for his Coach to pull him, or even the Ump to say something....but your example is pretty extreme.

 

To the OP, which Ump called the ball fair?  The reason I ask is if it was the HP Ump, it would have been more appropriate to throw at him...lol

 

IMO, the "birdman" could have been dealt with on a pick-off play...pretty easy to get your message across in a much more controlled manner than throwing at him at the plate, and a lot less risk of injury

 

This isn't normal.

Over the years you've been playing teams whose players are from dysfunctional families and/or the wrong side of the tracks.

Also, their coaches are negligent.

Home plate made the call. Both sides were already on his case about balls and strikes.

 

Yeah, my example was extreme, but I bet someone has seen a kid do something nearly as ridiculous as what I described.

 

One thing that bugs me is some shortstops with runners in front of them. Some will run up behind the runner and smack their glove - no big deal. Some will kick dirt behind the runner - ok... Some will circle in front of the runner - not cool. And some will kick the heel of the runner - makes me mad. I've always told mine to horsekick backwards if he is being kicked in the heel.

 

 

Running in front is not an issue in my book but a fielder should NEVER touch a baserunner without the ball.  If a SS does actually touch the runner, he is completely allowed to kick behind him.  

Yes, I know it's not normal.

A few pickoff attempts toward birdman accompanied with a firm slap tag or 3 would solve the problem.  

This player doesn't need to be hit. He's already made an arse of himself.

Chances are the ball on the line was a foul ball. It's not football where it matters where the feet are. In baseball it's where the ball is.

 

When the bird flapper comes up again walk him. Then throw over and tag him hard in the nuts. Twice if necessary. It's safer than throwing at hitters. Most high school pitchers don't have "dot the I" control.

 

In that case if he gets a "next time"....I'd be ok with plunking the coach....first for letting the kid hit again in a blowout...and second for letting a kid who did that see the field again.....lol

No need to lower your standards and hit someone w a pitch on purpose. What's with 76 stuff. We have kids pitching here anywhere from 87-92. FB inside can hurt. Don 't be so sure coach had no part in it, unfortunately many have no problem giving that call. 

What if kid has little control and it hits batter in head instead of body. All over a game? 

We've had kids with broken bones after getting hit batting. Nothing to be taken lightly.

If SS circles the runner, he should take off for third.  Then it becomes obstruction and he gets the base.

Agree.  Surprised no one has brought this up, but HS pitchers in general don't have the greatest pinpoint control.  What if the pitcher misses and hits the batter in the head.  My son had a concussion from a curve ball that didn't break.  Hit him square in the ear hole and knocked him out.

 

Like I posted before nothing good comes from beaning a batter.  Nothing.  There's no need to "send a message" in that particular manner.  Better off doing it by beating the opposing team on the field.  The only stat that counts at the end of the day is the one on the scoreboard.

Best scenario: You hit the kid and he shuts up.

Worst scenario: You hit the kid and he really gets hurt.

Probable scenario: you hit the kid and then there are lots of fireworks and conditions get worse.

It is NEVER ok to ask a HS pitcher to intentionally hit a batter.  Like redbird said, a pick off with the 1B dropping the hammer would get message across.  I actually this season had a very difficult discussion with BFS jr, regarding this.  I like everything about his HC with one exception - early in the season he instructed a pitcher to hit a batter who went spikes high into a bag.  The pitch sailed high and barely caught the batters lead shoulder, otherwise would have been in the ear hole....kid sits in the 80's.  I asked Jr. about it, and he said, "dad, coach says that's what having your teammates back is about".  

 

I let Jr. know, under no circumstane would I allow that, and I had a very frank conversation with his coach.  His coach understood my stance, and respects my point of view, so he agreed to never have Jr do that.  He could have easily responded differently.

 

If coaches make it clear that they will not stand for that, you will minimize players taking it upon themselves to do it on their own.  Too much risk, and at this age, which of you will say you are willing to take the risk, and explain your point of view to the parent visiting their kid in the ER.  

We've discussed this before and I will bring up the same point I've made, to those who say a pitch like this might get away and hit a kid in the head.....

 

I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that if you try to hit a kid in the leg or the butt, that you are going to miss 3 feet high and hit him in the head.  Some of the same people who suggest this could happen also say they don't see a problem with pitching high and inside to establish the inside of the plate...

 

So you think it is safe to throw on the inside black up at the letters, but not safe to throw at the hip because you might hit someone in the head.  WHAT?!?!  Makes no sense.  If you want to be against hitting a batter PERIOD, then just say that.  But don't suggest there is any more danger of hitting a kid in the head when trying to hit his hip, than there is accidentally hitting him in the head while just throwing high and tight to establish control of the inside of the plate, or to move the hitter's feet.  Last time a checked getting hit in the head is going to hurt a player whether it was intentional or not.

 

Again, I'm not advocating it, but there is a lot of flawed logic from the "Don't try to hit him in the hip, you might hit him in the head" crowd.  Additionally, if your pitcher's control is that bad, he's probably hitting a kid or two a game anyway just by trying to pitch on the inside part of the plate!

 

I haven't told a pitcher to hit someone for about 20 years, but I don't see it as any more dangerous or likely harmful than many hits in football, many wrestling moves, and quite frankly, some plays in basketball.  And I'm sorry, but for some kids, it probably would make them think twice about their actions..... Not the best route to take, but I just don't gasp at it when it happens.

I have made this point several times over the years and I will make it one more time. If you as a coach tell a kid to hit someone are you prepared to deal with the consequences if it all goes wrong? If somehow the batter gets injured? What if he gets seriously injured? Are you prepared to look a kids parent in the face at the ER and say "I told a 17 year old HS pitcher to hit your son." "I am sorry he is clinging to life here in the ER." "We didn't mean to hit him in the head." "I thought he had better control over his stuff than that." Are you prepared to own it coach? Now are you prepared to tell the pitchers parents. "I am sorry I told your son to hit that kid." "I am sorry he is going to have to live with the decision that I made for him." "I am sorry that for the rest of his life he will be remembered for this this and will have to live with it." Are you ready to do that? Is it worth that?

 

You have no idea for sure where that ball is going to go. When you tell a kid to hit another kid you do not know for sure what the outcome will be. But your willing to roll the dice with the life of another kid? Boy that takes a big man doesn't it? Now own it Coach. Man up and own it.

 

You don't throw at kids. You pitch inside. You throw up and in on bunts in certain situations. Why? Because that's part of the game. And if something happens your upset and you hate it. But you were just playing the game and we all know it can be a dangerous game. But your intention to hurt someone or hit someone was never there. And you can live with that. But can you live with intentionally throwing at a kid and it all goes wrong? You better be if your doing it. You better be willing to own it.

 

I personally think its a cowards way. To send a boy to do a mans job. If that other team is doing something that causes you to feel you need to retaliate then you go to that coach and tell him man to man to get it straight. You don't put that on a kid.

If the opposing coach and players are immature jerks, you are not responsible for teaching them manners or bringing them into line.

 

You are responsible for beating them at baseball.  Just play hard, aggressive disciplined ball.  Ignore their antics, win the game, go home with your dignity intact, and let them try to figure out what happened later.

Last week, pick off play at 2nd base, bottom 7 try score. 2nd baseman steps on our runners hand preventing him from reaching base. After out is called, 2nd baseman blows kiss to injured player. 2nd baseman leads off top 8, 1st pitch buzzed over his head, second pitch very high and tight. Our pitcher then gets the hitter out. Had we not been in extras, batter would have worn the 1st pitch but message was send and received. Pitcher wasn't told he needed to do this, he just knew. Injured player parents later thanked our pitcher.

 

How else do you protect your teammates? The other team purposely injured our player. Maybe things are different out here in Southern California, I've seen batters hit going back to 12/13 year old travel ball. I don't coach either, seen it all from the stands. 

im647f, 

 

Please explain how this pointless gesture of letting the offending player start with a 2-0 count served to "protect" your team?  Did it make your injured player's hand feel better?  Do you think the hand stomper felt punished by anything that transpired?  

 

Was the protective value contingent on getting the batter out?  Would your team have been more or less protected if the lead off hitter had walked after the theatrics and come around to score the winning run?  

 

I sort of get the concept of retaliatory plunkings to discourage bad behavior in MLB where  teams play each other 12 to 18 times per year and players have long careers.  But in high school ball, where half the starting line up graduates each year and teams play each other once or twice per year?  And in travel ball, when you may never see the opposing team again?  I haven't seen a convincing rationale for it.  All it does is distract from the business at hand.  Just play the game.

Maybe (just maybe) it would teach THAT kid, or maybe his teammates, not to do that again?  You would hope that his coaches and parents and teammates wouldn't like it if he does that kind of stuff.  But maybe for some kids, they need to have a little fear put in them to learn there are consequences for their actions.  Obviously his coach isn't teaching him, so who does?   Maybe a ball whizzing behind his back makes him think.

 

And before you say it isn't up to the opposing team, I hark back to the "old days" when it didn't matter if you were around your parents or someone else's parents; if you acted out, you were likely to be corrected by that adult for what you did.  Now a days most parents/adults won't stand for someone else correcting their kid.  Maybe, in baseball, the game should still police itself....

Coach May has this one correct as well.  You go to the other coach.  Non conference, you tell the other coach that you respected him and his program enough to play them but now, you don't need to play a program like his in the future.  If conference, you document the event while letting the coach know just how you feel.  For me, and the time, I posted where my team was so badly beaten, I made sure to say that opposing coaches name early and often when talking to every other conference team.  I did, however, also say what I thought exactly to his face. 

TCB1:

Or maybe not.

Buzzing a batter is simply a warning shot. At sea, you fire a warning shot only when you have the authority and ability to follow up with disabling fire if the vessel doesn't comply with your orders.

Same situation in baseball.  Chin music has effect only if there is a credible threat of more serious consequences if the miscreant doesn't change his ways. In extra innings of a high school game, the gesture is pointless because batter knows he will not face the team enough times in the future for further misconduct to be treated more harshly.

Buzzing a batter in this situation is akin to honking at someone on the highway after he cuts you off. Whatever message you think you're sending, whatever code you think you're enforcing, the only thing you're really doing is announcing that you are angry but powerless to do anything about it.

Hard to make the call to hit a kid, but like coach May said....you have to own it.  Our last game we are playing a classless team.  During the game we were getting quick pitched every now and then and I walked up and talked to our hitter about what to do and asked the ump to watch the situation.  Opp. pitcher told me to shut the fk up.  I did not say anything, but a couple of innings later our 2nd baseman applied a tag that caused the runners helmet to stop rolling about the outfield grass.

 

My player did what some have said is acceptable by applying a hard tag. Is this(hitting a defenseless kid lying on the ground with ball in glove)  less dangerous than throwing inside?  What should I have done to my player? Give him congrats? Pulled him? Ignore the situation?  So what do you do to your player that retaliates, but you did not call for it? 

I get baseball rules, enforcement etc.

 

In high school, I could hit a catchers glove wherever it was put.  I tried to hit a kid at one point b/c of the "rules", but was so scared I couldn't come close.  I'm 52, I can still hit the glove wherever a catcher puts it.  I still don't think I could hit someone.

 

Point being, a 15,16 yo kid shouldn't be tested with "buzzing" another kid. Just not mature enough.

D8,
If I was umping and your infielder applied a head slap tag with the force you described, you wouldn't have had to wonder whether to pull him.

As far as the unenforced quick pitching, your batters would have been better advised to be attentive to the pitcher than to try to start a fight.